The Mental Militia Forums

Special Interest => Gulching/Self-Sufficiency => FSP => Topic started by: Don Galt on October 01, 2003, 03:29:25 pm

Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Don Galt on October 01, 2003, 03:29:25 pm


NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Claire on October 01, 2003, 03:52:00 pm
Quote

PS - Yes I have a favorite state, but any of the westen states are objectively more viable than the eastern ones.  I'd decided that as much as I was concerned about the FSP, I'd move to the state they chose if it was a decent one.  Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska or a Dakota would have gotten serious consideration from me.  Now one of them is where I'm going to move, FSP having made itself irrelevant.
Hi, Don.

Sure you're allowed to differ with the FSP leadership here. Other than Debra, who's not on the FSP board anymore, they aren't even around to object. We may differ, but goddess forbid anybody around here should censor or conduct a flame war. I like this group. It's as polite as it is smart.

As a practical matter, it's too late to worry whether the FSP chose the wrong state. It's done <shrug>. But for those FSPers who opted out of New Hampshire, or those freedom lovers who never joined because, like you, they were committed to the west ... some Montana folks have talked about a Montana-only version of the FSP.

You might be interested in exploring that.

I wouldn't like to see *any* project compete with the FSP at this point. I might disagree with FSP leadership on details, but the FSP is simply the best thought-out, best organized, most dynamically driven freedom effort within memory. And it would be just like us libertarians to bust it apart before it has a real chance to succeed -- in one of our all-too-typical "purer than thou" philosophical snits. (And believe me, I'm not aiming that accusation at you. *I've* done exactly that myself, and so have a heck of a lot of the people I know.) If we insist on total philosophical "purity," then there wouldn't be a more "pure" FSP. Only one more broken libertarian idealist scheme.

I think this is truly the time when we have to all hang together or all hang separately. If you're right and NH is the wrong place and/or a huge percentage of FSP members are really statists (which isn't something I've perceived -- although certainly a lot of FSPers are more statist than most folks on this forum), then it will fail in its mission. In the meantime, I see a thousand reasons to give it a chance -- and lend my own radicalism to balance out (or hopefully even educate) some of the less hardcore members.

BUT if the FSP fails. Or if there are 40,000 libertarians (or even pretty-close-to-libertarians) out there ... I sure know people in both the U.S. and Canada who'd be ready to undertake a Montana project when the time comes.

Claire
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: amy on October 01, 2003, 03:55:50 pm
I don't think the fsp could free a state no matter what state was chosen. I think our nation is too far gone for that. What it might be able to do, is to slow down the slide down the slippery slope in the chosen state. Giving more time to inform people of what is going on and giving those that know what is going on more time to prepare. Also to get liberty loves together so they can meet up and become friends and support each other. When/if the shtf it will be beneficial to have others nearby to turn to/join with. And with NH  being a small state, all the freedom lovers will be in reasonable proximity to one an other. All the better to meet and form relationships. If one lives in the center of the state, one will be less than 2 hours from anywhere else in the state.  
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Don Galt on October 01, 2003, 05:31:01 pm


NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Claire on October 01, 2003, 06:24:02 pm
I received this in a message today:

Quote
To get involved with the Western Free State Project go to Yahoo Groups
and join, or contact Mykl Meagher at myklfsp@yahoo.com. Contact me
at birvin@allidaho.com. This project's success and direction will depend on
the commitment and energy of members.

Ben Irvin, who sent it, says the WFSP has no aim to compete with the FSP and is only seeking to recruit NH opt-outs and others who are interested only in the west. Although, clearly, it's competitive by its very nature.

I would LOVE to see three states of the free ... or four .... or 50, if there are that many interested freedom lovers. But is there even remotely enough support -- or are these other projects just going to fragment each other's membership, resulting in no free state project at all? Myself, I'm sticking with the FSP unless/until I see some pretty hard evidence that they aren't sincerely working to create a free state.

Don, you make some good points. If the FSP truly were a group of statists who were going to move to the chosen state and vote for business as usual (why would they even move, then?), or if they were moving in hopes of imposing deadly moralitic legisltion (worse), I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. I definitely see some evidence of "conservative libertarianism" in the FSP, no surprise. And I see a lot of evidence of sincere love of freedom to balance it. But then, you and I are obviously observing the FSP from different perspectives.

I'm curious. Did Jason actually censor you, in the sense of preventing you from posting messages advocating gun ownership for FSP members?

Claire
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Hunter on October 01, 2003, 08:40:10 pm
Don

You are operating on a LOT of false assumptions. Gun culture? Believe me, NH has a thriving one. I'll wager it has more gun stores and ranges per capita than about any state in the union. And people even down here in southern NH shoot ALL the time. You can't step outside at my house and listen for more than an hour or so most days without hearing a shot off in the distance somewhere.

A plan? The people of NH have had a plan for many years: "Live Free or Die". The people HERE who believe in freedom have been fighting the good fight their whole lives - and for the most part WINNING. Why do you think so many people up here were so excited about the prospect of the FSP choosing New Hampshire? I won't bother going over the big political advantages offered by the existing NH system; the voting package did that quite well. Granite staters are no strangers to telling the feds to go efff themselves, and 20,000 porcupines moving in are only going to enhance that tendency.

Now, I am not going to tell you not to go off and join an alternate group. That would be the pot calling the kettle black, because I have been working myself on getting moved west for many years. But that is strictly for personal reasons, having nothing to do with the freedom movement. Having lived here now for 5 or 6 years, and also having lived in a couple of different states out west, I can attest that for the purposes FSP was looking for there IS no better state available. That may not match your (or my) personal plans, but the selection of NH as the Free State pretty much validates the opinion that I had publicly expressed before. (see "Is the Free State New Hampshire?" (http://www.sierratimes.com/03/06/27/hunter.htm)) I fully expect this decision to catalyse similar and ultimately successful efforts in some of the western states, but that does not detract from what people up HERE are trying to do.  
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Herself on October 01, 2003, 09:33:59 pm
I have to admit to feeling kind of let down by the choice.  I was really expecting Wyoming, which was gonna be a big adjustment for this gal from one the flyover states that begin and end with a vowel-sound but it would've been The West, Land of Broad Horizons!  Out where the stars shine!  (Okay, the Yellowstone Volcano Deluxe is a bit offputting but the chance to take up mountain climbing again makes up for the long-odds Lake Of Fire ride).

     Now I have to ponder a quaint Eastern State.  While the climate won't be any worse and the scenery's not bad, it's just so, so "East."  Smack next to the People's Republic of Vermont an' the People's Republic of Canada!  Scary stuff.  (I needta go look at the borders more closely -- natural features, or just lines on the map?  It matters!)

     So I don't know yet.  I'll be checking for jobs there for sure (my present boss being an oleogenous mustilid Bushnik who shows no signs of leaving) but it'll take more of a job to lure me East than it would have West.

     It is wildly unlikely there was any sort of "fix" in.  Westerly opinions were simply too divided, and NH too appealing a prospect.

     I've never found myself censored in the FSP forums, either, even when suggesting to Jason he's got a stripe of Straussian elitism (maybe he does, maybe not, it was an Econ. kind of argument and his slant was pure Poly. Sci.).  I have self-censored my opinions on the Long-Established Tradition in U. S. political criticism, but I do that generally in print and online anyhow, as otherwise it tends to make folks overly fretful.

     So I don't agree with suggestions the FSP is crypto-statist or the state selection process "rigged."  Wrong?  Time will tell, and history, my baseball-loving partner reminds me, speaks more favorably of those who strike out swinging than those who strike out looking.

     --Herself
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Don Galt on October 02, 2003, 05:02:34 am


NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Don Galt on October 02, 2003, 05:09:54 am


NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Hunter on October 02, 2003, 05:38:30 am
According to both a couple of board members I talked to AND completely independently a cypherpunk friend of mine who did pretty extensive analysis of the data available on FSP members, by far the largest identifiable block of Porcupines were those living in California. Apparently CA residents were disproportionately inclined to be Porcupines. My friend commented that they composed a higher fraction of the FSP membership than californians do the population. Which considering that CA is the most populous state in the union is saying quite a bit. WIthout digging up the email where this person talked about it I can't confirm the number, but I think it was pushing 20%.

That, sir, is an objective fact, which I should say pretty thoroughly invalidates your thesis. I can't speak to your experiences on the FSP forums, because I never spent much time there. I frankly could care less what some git on a power trip did to you there. The people that matter in the end are the ones who move, and having met a good round hundred or so of them over the past couple of years, I am pretty confident they will do just fine if the people I know are at all representative. Good luck in Alaska.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Jack Harrison on October 02, 2003, 05:55:35 am
Hmmm...

I think a more appropriate name for the project would have been "The Freer State Project". It would more closely resemble the stated goals, and would probably lead to less conflict from those of us (please include me) would prefer freedom in its more pure sense - anarchocapitalist or whatever you wish to call your version. As it stands, what I hope to get out of the project will be different from what others seek. While I WANT to just simply be left alone, I recognize friends in the FSP. I also recognize that being left alone is NOT one of the goals of the FSP. I recognize that this group of folks are the only ones well enough organized, well enough along, and who have put together a well enough executed plan to move us along closer to real freedom than anyone else I've encountered.

I live in a terribly controlling, overburdening state. The FSP has helped me narrow down a list of states where I'll be more free simply by uprooting and moving there. That 20,000 folks, activists yet, who are willing to uproot themselves for an idea similar to mine will also be there, gives me an almost CERTAIN sense of security that freedom, the FSPs version of freedom, will be enhanced further. While FSP's "Freer State" may not be my ideal version, I surely don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face.

It would be so like a group of Libertarians to divide themselves again, right to the point of being individuals alone in the wasteland of tyranny, that they may as well be lone gunmen throwing rocks at their oppressors in tanks. I dearly hope that is not to be.

The state has been chosen - I wish we would all be happy - even if its not recognized as the perfect state. We all now know more than we did before - say hello to your "freer" neighbors. Hi neighbor!  
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Hunter on October 02, 2003, 08:29:12 am
Jack, if there is one vision you will find honored in New Hampshire, it is the wish to be left alone. C'mon down. You are displaying the right attitude. And I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised at just how ancap a lot of the Porcupines are. The ones I chewed the fat around the campfire up in Lancaster sure as hell qualified. Freedom is kinda like a sewer, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. (OK, so I stole the line from Tom Lehrer, so what?)  :P  
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Stan on October 02, 2003, 12:56:42 pm
Hi all,

Part of me was secretly hoping (or a better word, yearning) for Idaho, Montana or Alaska.  Even though, I voted NH #1 because that's where I figure we have the best chance to succeed.

I'm afraid of what will happen if the project splinters at this point.  Of course there is nothing I can do to stop it.  So I honestly wish the free western state project success if they proceed with their endeavor.  Who knows?  Maybe if our eastern efforts don't bear fruit I'll join them one day!

But my salute goes to you glass eaters who ultimately say "My culture is not Western or Eastern, Yankee or Southerner, but Freedom!".  
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Claire on October 02, 2003, 01:06:06 pm
Quote
I'm afraid of what will happen if the project splinters at this point.  

But my salute goes to you glass eaters who ultimately say "My culture is not Western or Eastern, Yankee or Southerner, but Freedom!".
Bless you, Stan. Even with my blatant western biases, I agree with you on this.

It's all well and good to criticize the FSP, but as Hunter said, at least the porcupines are *doing something* for freedom -- and in an organized, intelligent way.

Anybody can stand on the sidelines and carp (and most libertarians do). Anybody can go off in a snit when things don't go exactly their way (and that's a libertarian way of life). It has taken a skill and effort most of us lack for the FSP to get this far. Let's don't eff it up now.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Hunter on October 02, 2003, 02:38:13 pm
My sentiments zegactly, Claire and Stan. You said it a lot betterer.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Don Galt on October 02, 2003, 03:17:29 pm


NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: jack on October 02, 2003, 05:23:08 pm
Quote
Now I'm attacked as someone who stands on the sidelines and carps?
Don, chill down, nobody's attacking you...
Quote
I've pointed out glaring problems, pointed out a lack of integrity with the leadership.   And these are ignored.
For a good reason. We're individualists first. Jason is not a leadership, he's just an organizer. His integrity or lack thereof has no bearing on the success of the project.
Quote
And thus, we have the LP in ruins, and the FSP an organization with lots of momentum and a direction, but no plan for when they get there.
Again, for a good reason... ;) Plan is good for colectivists, we are indyvidualists and everyone has his own plan :) How would you go about getting a plan everybody would agree with? Would you agree to any plan but yours? The way it works now I can follow my plan and everybody else will follow his. Hopefully each plan will work towards more freedom.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: amy on October 02, 2003, 07:34:15 pm
Quote
Apparently CA residents were disproportionately inclined to be Porcupines. My friend commented that they composed a higher fraction of the FSP membership than californians do the population.
On a state by state comparison of fsp members per 1000 residents, nh had the highest at .1208. CA came in at .0150, it was on the low end. One can see the numbers for all the states here.

http://www.freestateproject.org/member_map...ate_numbers.htm (http://www.freestateproject.org/member_maps/MembersByState_numbers.htm)
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Claire on October 03, 2003, 11:09:35 am
Quote
Quote
Now I'm attacked as someone who stands on the sidelines and carps?
Don, chill down, nobody's attacking you...
 
Totally. To disagree is not automatically to attack.

And merely because some of us want to stick with the FSP does not mean we're totally disregarding your (or anybody else's) claims about problems within the organization. Some may perceive they need to investigate those claims for themselves. Some may find the problems less fundamental or less important than they seem to you. Some, using their own experience and judgments, may consider your opinions, but still think you're wrong in your assessments.

Not one person that I know of has said that every libertarian, or any libertarian, should join or support the FSP. Many people on these boards are not porcupines, and nobody's ragging them about it.

Finally, like Jack, I'm perfectly thrilled that there's no one-size-fits-all plan for all porcupines to follow when they arrive in New Hampshire. If 20,000 politically aware individualists are willing to uproot and move to a new state with lilberty as their sole criterion, then we can bet that each of them will work in their own way to fulfill that dream. And if there are some slackers ... well, there always are. And unlike collectivists, thank heaven we don't hold the illusion we can "make" everybody do what we think is good for them.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Don Galt on October 09, 2003, 06:12:11 am
Clearly I'm wasting my time.

I don't mind disagreement, but I have a real problem with dishonesty.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Misfit on November 06, 2003, 01:46:57 pm
I didn't realize Claire and others of you were actually signed up with FSP. I just thought you were discussing it and supporting it...

I'm kind of surprised that any westerner would sign up to go to a New England state (other than Maine, perhaps). I took my first and only trip through the New England states earlier this year and swore that I would never go to that part of the country again.

But to each their own, I understand they had to pick a state with a low population...but it also is a tiny state, hence the low population... I came West for freedom...going East doesn't add up for me...they are worse off there than here...population density, cost of living, pace of life and all the rules and regulations (you probably need a permit to sneeze there)...

I'll stay right here, by myself if I have to...I would look at a western FSPs but I'd have to fall in love with that state more than this one...and that's not likely...I have to love the land I defend. A sense of place is important to me.

Misfit

 
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: enemyofthestate on November 07, 2003, 12:05:33 am
Quote
According to both a couple of board members I talked to AND completely independently a cypherpunk friend of mine who did pretty extensive analysis of the data available on FSP members, by far the largest identifiable block of Porcupines were those living in California. Apparently CA residents were disproportionately inclined to be Porcupines. My friend commented that they composed a higher fraction of the FSP membership than californians do the population. Which considering that CA is the most populous state in the union is saying quite a bit. WIthout digging up the email where this person talked about it I can't confirm the number, but I think it was pushing 20%.

That, sir, is an objective fact, which I should say pretty thoroughly invalidates your thesis. I can't speak to your experiences on the FSP forums, because I never spent much time there. I frankly could care less what some git on a power trip did to you there. The people that matter in the end are the ones who move, and having met a good round hundred or so of them over the past couple of years, I am pretty confident they will do just fine if the people I know are at all representative. Good luck in Alaska.
According to http://www.freestateproject.org/member_map...tes_03nov03.htm (http://www.freestateproject.org/member_maps/states_03nov03.htm), there are 506 Californians in the FSP out of 5055 members.  That would be more OTO 10% than 20%.

The 2000 census put Caifornia's population at  33,051,894 in a country with 273,643,273 persons making California about 12% of the total.

I guess I don't see the significance in that.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: enemyofthestate on November 07, 2003, 12:09:26 am
Quote
Jack, if there is one vision you will find honored in New Hampshire, it is the wish to be left alone. C'mon down. You are displaying the right attitude. And I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised at just how ancap a lot of the Porcupines are. The ones I chewed the fat around the campfire up in Lancaster sure as hell qualified. Freedom is kinda like a sewer, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. (OK, so I stole the line from Tom Lehrer, so what?)  :P
Wasn't Carl Drega from New Hampshire?  From what I've read, he wasn't exactly left alone.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Hunter on November 07, 2003, 01:29:35 am
I know people who knew him. Pretty sad case. No, he wasn't left alone, but he also had problems of his own. No excuses, from everything I have heard and read one can certainly see why he cracked. Small town politics can be just as vicious as larger scales. I thought Vin covered the situation pretty well in his book.
Title: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Don Galt on November 24, 2003, 06:12:19 pm

The activist members of the FSP may well be ancap, and probably are libertarians.

The problem is that most of the rest are socialists who think they are libertarians.

Just wait-- if this happens, then the californains will be trying to get california style zoning in NH, and california style socialism in NH.

Not all libertarians are the same, and actually, many people who call themselves libertarian aren't really-- they just agree with a couple issues the libertarians agree with.

To be a libertarian, you have to actually be able to come up with the libertarian answer to an issue you don't know the libertarian position on in advance.  IOW you have to have the libertarian philosophy.

Too many members-- the majority in my experience-- of the FSP do not have a philosophical base for their libertarianism.  They are merely socialists who don't think the republicans are serious enough aobut taxes, or the democrats are serious enough about drugs.

 
Title: I agree, they picked the wrong state
Post by: lonewolf on November 03, 2005, 10:49:22 pm
When they picked NH, I opted out of the project, and told them I was no longer interested in relocation.

Wyoming was definately the way to go
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on November 04, 2005, 03:15:27 am
Quote
Wyoming was definately the way to go

In your best personal opinion.......... and yeah.....I do have a very dear friend moving to Wyoming....but it's still based on an opinion.....and all opinions are valid to the person giving them*grin*
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: russellkanning on November 05, 2005, 08:47:49 pm
NH is very nice. I am a westerner who choose to move wherever we voted. I miss the big mountains, but now I have trees. If you are ready to take on the government, why don't you join us.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Lloyd on November 11, 2005, 11:17:00 am

The activist members of the FSP may well be ancap, and probably are libertarians.

The problem is that most of the rest are socialists who think they are libertarians.

Just wait-- if this happens, then the californains will be trying to get california style zoning in NH, and california style socialism in NH.

Not all libertarians are the same, and actually, many people who call themselves libertarian aren't really-- they just agree with a couple issues the libertarians agree with.

To be a libertarian, you have to actually be able to come up with the libertarian answer to an issue you don't know the libertarian position on in advance.  IOW you have to have the libertarian philosophy.

Too many members-- the majority in my experience-- of the FSP do not have a philosophical base for their libertarianism.  They are merely socialists who don't think the republicans are serious enough aobut taxes, or the democrats are serious enough about drugs.

 

Don,  not all of the members of the FSP are libertarians, but, I have met several hundred of them and have not met one expressing socialist ideas.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: onlyfittin on August 16, 2006, 12:05:59 pm
  Just as a generalization, I’ve never seen labeling and judging change hearts and minds.  Some of us are limited in our ability to relocate (health, finances and other personal issues).  We try and fight the good fight where we are with the resources available to us.  There is no wrong state when you work for freedom.  There may be less power in a person’s efforts when there is a smaller concentration of believers BUT who would condemn their commitment?  Grow where you are planted.  Do what you can to live the dream.  Support in any way possible those who can make a bigger investment and relocate.  Bless all those who work for a “free state” anywhere.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Duncan on August 19, 2006, 01:33:14 pm
They sure enough did pick the wrong state.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: eukreign on August 23, 2006, 08:38:06 pm
They sure enough did pick the wrong state.

I moved to New Hampshire from Illinois and I'm glad I did. It's a great state and we are making it even better.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Duncan on August 28, 2006, 07:01:28 pm
Not likely.

Too many people from Taxachusetts moved into NH long before you got there and property taxes are out of this world. The state has the monopoly the sale of booze.

This is the state that killed Carl Drago in his home and thought nothing of it.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: penguinsscareme on August 29, 2006, 08:57:49 am
What state doesn't have a whole bunch of strikes against it?  The fsp picked the right state for the fsp, you pick the right state for Duncan.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: onlyfittin on August 29, 2006, 11:44:09 am
Amen, Brother!
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: eukreign on August 31, 2006, 07:12:10 pm
Too many people from Taxachusetts moved into NH long before you got there and property taxes are out of this world. The state has the monopoly the sale of booze.

Property taxes are expensive everywhere, we need to get rid of them. As to the state run liquor stores, it's definitely a black eye for NH but you have to consider that you can still buy beer and wine at any grocery store it's only hard liquor that you can only buy at the state store. The potential upside to the state run store is that it will be a leverage in gradually legalizing marijuana by promising to only sell it at the state store. The money the state would make from this is astronomical so there is incentive for them do go for it. Once they legalize it we can work from there.

This is the state that killed Carl Drago in his home and thought nothing of it.

At least we had a Carl Drega and besides he didn't die in his home, he died fighting. There are thousands more native Carl Dregas in NH and even more are moving there as part of the Free State Project.

But you can do whatever you want Duncan, don't move to NH if you don't want to, nobody is making you.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: penguinsscareme on September 02, 2006, 11:27:40 am
Quote
The potential upside to the state run store is that it will be a leverage in gradually legalizing marijuana by promising to only sell it at the state store.

If that is the only way to legalize it, I'd rather keep it illegal.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Rarick on September 02, 2006, 04:56:03 pm
State liscenses for Liqor, Tobbacco, and Drugs are a lever for the feds to get info from these stores.  Pay for you substance of choice with you check or credit card, the feds may now have access to that.  I do understand the need for a lever to move the government for lifting drug prohibition, a new revenue stream is the best way to do that, but there is also a need to get some other tax dropped, otherwise they will use the new cash to tighten the screws.

TO GET BACK ON TOPIC:
The main weekness of libertarians, is their freespiritedness, it is the political equivalent of ADD.  They can focus on a task and get it done, but do not have a sense of "group" enough to actually form a political party of any strength.  We are all crackpots and can work together on a goal, but given and excuse to break things up after a task is done, we do so. 

I like the Idea of the freestate projects, if nothing else it gets people concentrated in an area for mutual support after Teotwawki.  It also gives a place for those that have skills and principles, but no means, to go after Teotwawki.(I would hope they have enough sense not to arrive without their own supplies)  These will be the spare hands that will be needed to fillin the labor and skill gaps that each gulch may need, and everyone will pick and chose.  Homesteaders who are forming a freestate, or even county/town, are doing something important for the rest of us. Regardless of their differentness respect for their doing something that may help is in order.  I also view the different groups squabbling as being a problem, do not down another gulch, they may be a good trading partner later, piss them off bad enough now and be out of luck later when you need the help.  Claire made an excellent point about diluting effort to the point that nothing gets done.  Everyone must figure out exactly what they will and won't tolerate and find a group, in the area of the Freestate, that fits.  Once you find a place that fits, remain quiet about what is wrong with the other place(s), just talk about what you like about yours. 

The rest is just traffic noise and full of info and details that the feds would just love, as it will probably give the chink that allows the feds into the freestate tent.  Think about it, put the ego in the pocket, and watch what you say and thereby give away to the foe. If you think about it, accusations from one gulch to another could be used by the Govt. for a warrent, especially if it is about something really a crime.  That might have been exactly what allowed the warrents for Waco.  A lot of sheeple do not care much about a "farming commune" but get nervous about "criminals" if the authorities can prove enough for a warrent, you sudenly become a "possible" when you resist and go out in a blaze of glory the sheeple see TPTB as being justified.  Especially with the spin doctoring that will be happening.  Without a warrent, some sheep will get nervous and TPTB cannot have that, so kep the info TPTB need off the air. 
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: eukreign on September 07, 2006, 08:00:03 am
"Are you like a crazy person?" Have you ever even been to the Free State? I live here and I'm having a hard time matching what you're saying to what I'm seeing and experiencing here.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Rarick on September 07, 2006, 11:36:34 pm
That is sure as heck what the posts you make look like. A lot of the infighting is why I selected a place near family, but meeting all the other criteria as best I can.  The posts look like there are some issues serious enough and enough info leaked, the you may already be on a list.  I am just trying to point out what some stuff is looking like,

Being called crazy in response just reinforces it.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: gardenguy on September 25, 2006, 06:03:12 am
"Are you like a crazy person?" Have you ever even been to the Free State? I live here and I'm having a hard time matching what you're saying to what I'm seeing and experiencing here.
I was intererested in the free state project till NH, Why would I move to a place that would require me to have building inspections and fees to build on my own land? With a myriad of restrictions that I dont have in Maddison county AR? I bet I could not even have an out house in NH, The cost of land in NH is way to high for me coming from AR and not CA I dont have that $ and i would need atleast 5 acres to have my self sufficient homestead and grow enough to sell at market.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Rarick on September 25, 2006, 08:05:29 am
There are several freestate or county projects running out west, check (serch) for other threads.  Some Wyoming stuff looks interesting, there is also action going in Montana.  There are some folks in the South west too, Arizona seems to be one that shows up.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: gardenguy on September 25, 2006, 09:13:30 am
There are several freestate or county projects running out west, check (serch) for other threads.  Some Wyoming stuff looks interesting, there is also action going in Montana.  There are some folks in the South west too, Arizona seems to be one that shows up.
I will be looking into them, I was not aware of any of them other than NH until the other day when I read this forum and your post today.Thanks
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Niall on November 05, 2006, 08:31:33 pm
Not an FSP member here, but I had to say something...

Quote
The potential upside to the state run store is that it will be a leverage in gradually legalizing marijuana by promising to only sell it at the state store.

If that is the only way to legalize it, I'd rather keep it illegal.

I don't want to see it legalized at all. I want to see it decriminalized.

Many people still don't know the difference between the two.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: d_goddard on November 17, 2006, 11:52:31 pm
Well, one of "our people" just got elected into the NH State House (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GpZ5sbZOSs)

So, tell me.... which of the other freedom projects have RESULTS to show?

Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: BillS on March 14, 2008, 10:01:27 am

Too many people from Taxachusetts moved into NH long before you got there and property taxes are out of this world. The state has the monopoly the sale of booze.


I am "wicked" late on this topic, but I like NH.  I am originally a Masshole and moved up here for more freedom without even knowing of the FSP.  NH was probably picked becuase of the Primaries which puts the political spotlight on the state.  Not to mention there is a wide range of jobs to choose from, anything from farming to tech industries.  I have never been to Idaho so I am not sure, but I don't think you have that out there.  As for TSHTF, NH is far enough away from metro Boston to be safe, but close enough to trade routes to be able to get supplies, not to mention you can just hop into Canada real quick.  Yes, there are a lot of socialists who come up from MA, but with no income tax or sales tax, their hands are tied becuase their yuppy ville property taxes are going through the roof and putting limits to their big spending fast.  We just had Town Meetings here in a lot of the towns in my area and every big ticket item was voted down by the people.  I think NH is a small state, where it is easy for groups to keep the government in check, Gun rights groups have done very well up here and form a base for the FSP to grow off of.

As for Libertarians having political ADD, it is simply becuase we are wolves, not sheep.  The only times wolves are organized is around the kill, the rest of the time they are disorganized and fighting each other and screwing around.  Sheep are always following the shepard if you want that kind of organization, join the Democrat party.  Having an organized Libertarian group with no internal conflict is antithetical.  Look at all the organization around Dr. Pauls campaign, we didnt win, but it was great to see everyone put differences aside and work together.  Now that its over, there will be disorganization until us wolves can organize around another kill.  We are always nipping at the heels of government here, but shes a big healthy elk and it'll take a while to wear her down.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on March 14, 2008, 12:17:07 pm
Quote
Now that its over, there will be disorganization until us wolves can organize around another kill.  We are always nipping at the heels of government here, but shes a big healthy elk and it'll take a while to wear her down.

Wolves eat by killing, thus there always has to be a kill.....once that big healthy elk is gone, and all the other herd animals eaten...... what will the next kill be?.......it's interesting to note that during times of hardship wolves will eat their own.....usually the old, the young and the weak...........and someday you'll be old and weak....and there'll always be hardship.....you might want to consider carrying a bottle of ketchup in your pocket........
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Bill St. Clair on March 14, 2008, 02:31:09 pm
I don't want to see it legalized at all. I want to see it decriminalized.

That would be nice. I'd rather see it completely deregulated, with no mention whatsoever of any kind of hemp in any legislation.

And that goes for every other drug, pharmaceutical or not. Two quote Vin Suprynowicz, "This does not mean that 'Marijuana should be available by prescription.' It means that morphine sulfate should be available in five pound bags at the supermarket for a couple of bucks, like sugar... but probably in a different aisle, to avoid confusion." Not that there would be enough of a market for it to support that, but if a grocery store wanted to stock it, more power to them.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: iloilo on March 24, 2008, 09:19:32 pm
Specialty stores could stock it.  Sort of like specialized hobby stores, golf stores, you know...
ff
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Phssthpok on April 20, 2008, 12:43:47 pm
Specialty stores could stock it.  Sort of like specialized hobby stores, golf stores, you know...
ff

I love it!

Gives the name 'Drug Store' a whole new ( and much more accurate) meaning! ^_^
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: socalserf on April 21, 2008, 04:48:26 am
I'm for Wyoming.
I know that more people have signed on to New Hampshire, more power to them.

If you are happy than how can it be wrong?

Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: amagi on May 11, 2008, 10:58:29 pm
Quote
Look at all the organization around Dr. Pauls campaign, we didnt win, but it was great to see everyone put differences aside and work together.

Some of us have not given up hope yet.  A lot of things could still happen.  McCain could easily screw up his chance.  Dr No is not out of the race yet.  He has picked up a lot of delegates here and there.  Seven from MN so far.  There are still the Huckabee supporters who pledged thier votes before he dropped out.  Huck has not (cannot?) transfered those votes. After the first round at national they are released.

It is a slim chance, but still a chance.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Rarick on May 12, 2008, 01:27:06 am

Too many people from Taxachusetts moved into NH long before you got there and property taxes are out of this world. The state has the monopoly the sale of booze.


I am "wicked" late on this topic, but I like NH.  I am originally a Masshole and moved up here for more freedom without even knowing of the FSP.  NH was probably picked becuase of the Primaries which puts the political spotlight on the state.  Not to mention there is a wide range of jobs to choose from, anything from farming to tech industries.  I have never been to Idaho so I am not sure, but I don't think you have that out there.  As for TSHTF, NH is far enough away from metro Boston to be safe, but close enough to trade routes to be able to get supplies, not to mention you can just hop into Canada real quick.  Yes, there are a lot of socialists who come up from MA, but with no income tax or sales tax, their hands are tied becuase their yuppy ville property taxes are going through the roof and putting limits to their big spending fast.  We just had Town Meetings here in a lot of the towns in my area and every big ticket item was voted down by the people.  I think NH is a small state, where it is easy for groups to keep the government in check, Gun rights groups have done very well up here and form a base for the FSP to grow off of.

As for Libertarians having political ADD, it is simply becuase we are wolves, not sheep.  The only times wolves are organized is around the kill, the rest of the time they are disorganized and fighting each other and screwing around.  Sheep are always following the shepard if you want that kind of organization, join the Democrat party.  Having an organized Libertarian group with no internal conflict is antithetical.  Look at all the organization around Dr. Pauls campaign, we didnt win, but it was great to see everyone put differences aside and work together.  Now that its over, there will be disorganization until us wolves can organize around another kill.  We are always nipping at the heels of government here, but shes a big healthy elk and it'll take a while to wear her down.

Micron Semiconductor to Potatoes (LotS of Mcdonald russets) as far as industry.  It also has elbow room.  I spent time back east when I was in the service and I was amazed at how sociallized the place was.  There was some Union, Fraternity, Paternity of other organization you had to belong to just to function day to day (that includes your neighborhood pecking circle).  I like it much better out here in the west.  Ron Paul has a following but us wolves and lions are wary of becoming too visible to the shepards. Those who still vote will make it known at voting time, or over "iron sights" when the time comes.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: russellkanning on September 02, 2008, 06:22:32 am
btw ... the Free State Project is still rolling. We have so many people moving that I don't meet but a 4th of them and may never see them ... too much is happening. :)
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: vonuvan on September 04, 2008, 04:40:45 pm
Not an FSP member here, but I had to say something...

Quote
The potential upside to the state run store is that it will be a leverage in gradually legalizing marijuana by promising to only sell it at the state store.

If that is the only way to legalize it, I'd rather keep it illegal.

I don't want to see it legalized at all. I want to see it decriminalized.

Many people still don't know the difference between the two.

Much as many don't know the difference between a republic and a democracy, and both for the same reason, public day prisons.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Myrkul on September 06, 2008, 12:46:36 pm
Has anyone thought of Alaska? It's amazingly Free already... Maybe that's the problem, too free already? ;)

Or maybe it's the weather.  :laugh:
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: socalserf on September 06, 2008, 09:49:46 pm
Alaska would make a fine free state, anyone who would like to start a Alaska Free State movement may do so.
Really, you can't have too many free places.
I lived in South East Alaska for over a year and the weather wasn't too bad.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: kirgi07 on September 09, 2008, 10:22:47 am
Wyoming would be my mother load. Ought 7.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: ZooT_aLLures on September 17, 2008, 10:50:46 pm
Quote
anyone who would like to start a Alaska Free State movement may do so.

Who's to say there isn't one going already.......but folks just don't know about it's existance yet..........
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: Rick N on September 18, 2008, 08:21:42 pm
Quote
anyone who would like to start a Alaska Free State movement may do so.

Who's to say there isn't one going already.......but folks just don't know about it's existence yet..........

Well, there's the Alaskan Independence Party (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Alaskan_Independence_Party):

Quote
The Alaskan Independence Party is a political party in the U.S. state of Alaska that advocates a state vote which includes several options, including increased state autonomy, territorial status, becoming a separate nation or commonwealth state, and, failing that, for increased Alaskan control of Alaskan land, gun rights, privatization, home schooling, and reduction of governmental intrusion in the private lives of its citizens with adherence to the founding documents of the United States. The party has appeared on the ballot in Alaska in all state elections since 1970.
Title: Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
Post by: russellkanning on March 02, 2009, 08:01:43 am
Has anyone thought of Alaska? It's amazingly Free already...
of coarse ... it was my second choice in the fsp vote after WY