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Partner Sites => FIJA - Fully Informed Jury Association => Topic started by: iloilo on December 05, 2007, 01:58:57 pm

Title: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on December 05, 2007, 01:58:57 pm
Most if not all of you already know that jurors have the authority to veto any bad or misapplied law being used to prosecute anyone.
Just say not guilty.

For more information, visit the web site at www.fija.org
Or call 1-800-TEL-JURY and a free information packet will be mailed to you.

If you get called for jury duty, if you serve on a jury, if you have a jury trial, this is a great place to post about it.

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: prometheus on December 05, 2007, 04:20:44 pm
You should put this up over there too.  :sign13:
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on December 05, 2007, 06:15:35 pm
you are right.  Thank you :wub:
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on January 13, 2008, 02:05:42 am
FIJA is up in videojug!

http://www.videojug.com/tag/reporting-for-jury-duty

This was a fun time, and from this link, you can get to the rest of the presentations.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Raffi Paloulian on January 14, 2008, 07:55:23 am
Very nice job.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on January 14, 2008, 02:35:52 pm
Very nice job.
Thank you!
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: bobcat on January 14, 2008, 03:35:14 pm
Absolutely GREAT instructional video!  A very well done, professional job with an attention maintaining 'casual' conversational approach.  Very easy to comprehend.  I heartily recommend everyone with high speed connections take a few minutes and listen to what feralfae has to say.  It could change how you think about juries.  My family has served and has faced some of these questions.

Until I ran into fija.org, (about a year ago) I had ZERO interest in being on a jury because I thought we would be boxed into an up or down verdict based solely on evidence presented and the law as the judge instructed. 

I had NO IDEA the jury has the power to determine the law is flawed, at least as applied to the case presented and to render a not guilty verdict as a result.  This particularly intrigues me because of so many malum prohibitum laws on the books. 

What an opportunity to make a REAL difference.  Thank you FIJA and feralfae. :mellow:
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on January 14, 2008, 04:37:07 pm
Thank you, Bobcat!    :wub:
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Apple on January 14, 2008, 04:55:17 pm
Sigh, I wish I could watch that. Why does every movie have to be flash these days? What happened to open, standards compliant video formats? You know, MPEG? XVID? Anyone? :dontknow:  At least TED lets me download as MP4…
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 14, 2008, 05:40:21 pm
I'm the FIJA contact person in Wyoming. If anyone knows someone here who would be interested in helping distribute literature, please have them contact me. You can give them my email address or PM me with theirs. Thanks! ML
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on January 14, 2008, 06:13:50 pm
Why does every movie have to be flash these days? What happened to open, standards compliant video formats? You know, MPEG? XVID? Anyone?  At least TED lets me download as MP4…

Which leads to...

Feralfae, can you get for us (to distribute everywhere!!) an "open standards" video (MP4) format?[/list]
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on January 14, 2008, 08:08:58 pm
Junker. if you will explain this to me, and help me {{{hugs}}} we will do this.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: DadaOrwell on January 20, 2008, 10:30:22 pm
thanks for reminding folks.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on January 22, 2008, 10:03:03 am
thanks for reminding folks.

Well. you know, it's sorta what I do.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
If you need any literature to help us to remind folks about jury authority, which is one of the most elegant and peaceful forms of civil resistance, let me know.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on January 24, 2008, 09:41:12 pm
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2 … d-to-find/


Disrespect one reason jurors hard to find

By Chris Maj, Denver

Thursday, January 24, 2008

The recent prospective juror raids at grocery stores in Greeley stink of unchecked judicial arrogance. But I refer less to the on-the-spot issuances of jury summonses, and more to the growing disregard for the power of the jury ("Scores plucked off street for jury duty in Greeley," Jan. 17).

Colorado judges tell juries to decide cases not on matters of law but only matters of fact - even if the jury disagrees or does not understand the rules. In effect, jurors are requested to put good conscience aside and robotically determine the verdict based on the judge's orders.

However, jurors might like to know that there's no criminal penalty for weighing instructions from a judge against plain old common sense!

Perhaps to engender responsibility among jurors - and get them to report for duty instead of corralling them on the sidewalks as the bell rings - judges should consider fully informing jurors about their rights as respected equals in the delivery of justice.

© Rocky Mountain News
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: OLD TIRED RN on February 07, 2008, 09:47:13 pm
Fae, I truly do appreciate you and your organization.  It takes a lot to take on such a "fixed" system these days.  The people like you and the FIJA folks really do rank very high up there on my "patriot meter."  God bless you and all the fine folks over there.

                          Respectfullly,  RN
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on February 08, 2008, 07:41:38 am
Fae, I truly do appreciate you and your organization.  It takes a lot to take on such a "fixed" system these days.  The people like you and the FIJA folks really do rank very high up there on my "patriot meter."  God bless you and all the fine folks over there.

                          Respectfullly,  RN

Thank you for the kind words.   ^_^
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on February 08, 2008, 07:42:39 am
Superb article by Alex Knight on Strike the Root, and he mentions FIJA.   :laugh:

http://www.strike-the-root.com/81/knight/knight1.html
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on February 10, 2008, 06:12:59 pm
And he writes various pro-freedom pieces...nice.

Alex R. Knight III - writer, fiction & op-ed

at American Chronicle (http://www.americanchronicle.com/viewByAuthor?authorID=1480)
at Strike-the-Root (http://www.strike-the-root.com/archive/knight.html)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on February 15, 2008, 09:55:19 pm
FYI!!
Show up!
Be there!
ff


Linked Events
FIJA wookiee Manchester: February 19, 2008
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   Author   Topic: Juror's Rights Wookiee to demonstrate outside courthouse 2/19  (Read 27 times)
DadaOrwell
Opponent, not an
Enemy of the State


Karma: 991
[applaud] [smite]
Posts: 5160


 


   
Juror's Rights Wookiee to demonstrate outside courthouse 2/19
« on: Yesterday at 03:14 PM »
Quote
OK... as it stands currently, Juror's Rights Wookiee will be active, in Manchester Feb 19.

What:  Fully informed jury event featuring Juror's Rights Wookie
Where:  Sidewalk outside Hillsborough Superior Court, 300 Chestnut Street, Manchester New Hampshire
When:  Tue Feb 19  7:45 am. - 8:45 a.m.
Why:  Inform prospective jurors of their right to nullify, to judge the law as well as the facts of a case

I do not need a big crowd just a couple people to videotape and pass out leaflets.  This is the day and time when prospective jurors enter the building in good numbers.   Ideally, it would be nice to have something like this every two weeks at the courthouse; they do jury selection every two weeks.   But I won't always be available.

So I would like like to request volunteers who can wear the wookiee costume or otherwise carry out these FIJA demonstrations when I'm unavailable. 

For now I'm thinking my sign will read:

Jurors may
Judge the Law
FIJA.org

with a smaller quote reading

""It is not only (a juror's) right but also his duty… to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court."
  - President John Adams
Report to moderator    Logged
The Revolution is now Televised
http://RidleyReport.com
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on March 17, 2008, 04:31:00 pm
LRC (http://www.lewrockwell.com):

They’ve Ironed the Wrinkle Out of the Jury (http://www.lewrockwell.com/eddlem/eddlem20.html)

United States v. Robert Luisi, and I was thrown out because
I refused to take a second oath of jury service that would have required that I
suspend my common sense, and even suspend my belief in an objective reality.
This second oath would literally have bound me to find the defendant guilty if
the judge had instructed me that "the law says all Italians are guilty." (Luisi is of
Italian heritage.)
[/list]
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on March 27, 2008, 03:39:46 pm
Nullification in West Texas: Jury Deliberates 11 Minutes and Returns Not Guilty Verdict
http://fija.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=402

Thank you Mama Liberty for the post.   :wub:
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on March 27, 2008, 04:22:12 pm
And thanks for posting it here! I'll remember to put things both places next time... I hope. <G>
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Mr. Dare on March 27, 2008, 04:23:58 pm
SWEET! :thumbsup:
Title: We will vote to acquit. - Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on April 02, 2008, 01:17:32 pm
LRC (http://www.lewrockwell.com):

The Other Civil War (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/preston9.html)

by Keith Preston

Time, March 25, 2008:

"But this is what we can do—and what we will do.

"If asked to serve on a jury deliberating a violation of state or federal drug laws, we will vote to acquit, regardless of the evidence presented. Save for a prosecution in which acts of violence or intended violence are alleged, we will—to borrow Justice Harry Blackmun's manifesto against the death penalty—no longer tinker with the machinery of the drug war. No longer can we collaborate with a government that uses nonviolent drug offenses to fill prisons with its poorest, most damaged and most desperate citizens.

"Jury nullification is American dissent, as old and as heralded as the 1735 trial of John Peter Zenger, who was acquitted of seditious libel against the royal governor of New York, and absent a government capable of repairing injustices, it is legitimate protest. If some few episodes of a television entertainment have caused others to reflect on the war zones we have created in our cities and the human beings stranded there, we ask that those people might also consider their conscience. And when the lawyers or the judge or your fellow jurors seek explanation, think for a moment on Bubbles or Bodie or Wallace. And remember that the lives being held in the balance aren't fictional."
[/list]

We will vote to acquit.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on April 22, 2008, 11:43:44 pm
I'm currently reading (in my spare time) The Underground Lawyer (http://www.amazon.com/Underground-Lawyer-Michael-Minns/dp/0929801016) (yes, that's a link) by Michael Minns (thanks feralfae). Here's the last paragraph on page 50 from chapter II THE AMERICAN JURY.
Quote
...
The concept of trial by jury emerged in the Athenian city-states as the culmination of thousands of years of legal evolution. It continued to progress through the Germanic enlightenment to the English Great Charter and reached its climax with the adoption of the U.S. Constitution and its Bill of Rights. Each step of the way, however, government intruded and slowed this progress toward human liberty. Liberty is, and always has been, the enemy of government power and the enemy of democratic tyranny. Ideally, the jury protects citizens against government. Appellate review protects against juror injustices (the majority telling a minority what to do). The ideal is still a visionary dream. We can either start approaching it again, or backslide.
...
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on May 02, 2008, 11:55:53 pm
 
 Ron Paul, Jury Nullification and FIJA up on YouTube !!!
 
Juries have the power to nullify laws that they feel are unconstitutional.  Never shirk your responsiblity if you are asked to be on a jury.
 
 
"Jury Nullification" is the power of the Jury to overturn bad laws (of which, we have MANY) It is an important tool guaranteed to citizens serving on jury duty Jury nullification enables us to declare laws unjust, if we are so inclined
Learn more by watching this clip from 1990:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA4GKG__B-s
 
Part 2:  VERY IMPORTANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRdse8zBzyI
 
Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbw8rF_hA9I
 
Most Judges do not want you to know about this power Juries are only told they can rule "guilty" or "not guilty" They are never told of their third option, "the law is bad"

Shame on bad Judges covering up this power and the corrupt system which allow these arrogant Judges to remain on the bench

Learn your rights and DO NOT try to get out of jury duty

As citizens we only have two real powers to keep the Gov't in check:
1) The power to vote
2) The power of the jury

Your rights: Use them or loose them With rumors of the American Bar Association working to eliminate juries in the future And with the PROVEN vulnerability of the electronic voting machines, what voice will we have left?
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Pagan on May 03, 2008, 04:11:02 am
Quote
Learn your rights and DO NOT try to get out of jury duty

As citizens we only have two real powers to keep the Gov't in check:
1) The power to vote
2) The power of the jury


Unfortunately that leaves some of us in a quandary.

I strongly believe in jury nullification. (In truth I believe in nullifying most every law.) I also strongly believe in not voting. In my county I won’t be picked for jury duty UNLESS I’m registered to vote – so there’s no chance of ever being on a jury.

In addition, those of us who wish to “lie low” don’t want to call attention to ourselves before the legal system, the community and the media by being on a jury in the first place – or by registering for anything.

So what’s left for us within those two [legal] powers to keep the Government in check?

What I’m asking is: where do free market anarchists fit into this system at all? If we’re not left alone, what recourse do we have? If we aren’t citizens on principle, we have no home. My rights lie within me, not within my citizenry.

I’m not trying to argue with you, feralfae, but your words bother me. Obviously you are a minarchist; I am not – and never the twain shall meet. To do so, I am the one who would compromise.

It may be accurate for you to say: 
Quote
As citizens we only have two real powers to keep the Gov't in check:
1) The power to vote
2) The power of the jury
 

BUT:

Unfortunately that leaves some of us in a quandary.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on May 03, 2008, 08:23:40 am
Pagan,
network and spread the word
hand out literature
talk to people
share ideas as you do so beautifully here and I am sure elsewhere
move to Montana and join us in pushing forward for freedom
move to Wyoming or New Hampshire
If you need or want to keep your head down, it is your life, after all.
If you can't serve on juries, hand out FIJA literature one day a month around the courthouse or anywhere.
Be at peace with the life you choose, and find more ways to monkeywrench from where you are.
Have fun.
Live free.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Pagan on May 03, 2008, 09:19:44 am
Thank you for an understanding reply.

Several of those items I do or are on my list to do (including handing out FIJA literature!), and am working hard for a couple of others.

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: idahobob on May 03, 2008, 10:02:04 am

 Ron Paul, Jury Nullification and FIJA up on YouTube !!!
 
Juries have the power to nullify laws that they feel are unconstitutional.  Never shirk your responsiblity if you are asked to be on a jury.
 
 
"Jury Nullification" is the power of the Jury to overturn bad laws (of which, we have MANY) It is an important tool guaranteed to citizens serving on jury duty Jury nullification enables us to declare laws unjust, if we are so inclined
Learn more by watching this clip from 1990:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA4GKG__B-s
 
Part 2:  VERY IMPORTANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRdse8zBzyI
 
Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbw8rF_hA9I
 
Most Judges do not want you to know about this power Juries are only told they can rule "guilty" or "not guilty" They are never told of their third option, "the law is bad"

Shame on bad Judges covering up this power and the corrupt system which allow these arrogant Judges to remain on the bench

Learn your rights and DO NOT try to get out of jury duty

As citizens we only have two real powers to keep the Gov't in check:
1) The power to vote
2) The power of the jury

Your rights: Use them or loose them With rumors of the American Bar Association working to eliminate juries in the future And with the PROVEN vulnerability of the electronic voting machines, what voice will we have left?

ff,

Thank you soooooo much.

 :wav:

Bob
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on June 02, 2008, 11:46:02 pm
Please share the post below with others.
Thank you.
ff

Hello,
On Wednesday 04 June 2008 Ms. Iloilo Jones of the Fully Informed Jury Association ( www.fija.org (http://www.fija.org) )will be our featured guest on "Know Your Rights". 

The veto power of the jury member is as powerful as the president's!  But most people don't know that.  The judges sometimes will give incorrect or incomplete jury instructions.  This is live and interactive.  Listen and learn!  Learn about YOUR power as a potential juror! 

Go to www.alltalkradio.net (http://www.alltalkradio.net) at 1 P.M. PST to listen.


Has a friend or relative been wrongly convicted?  Learn how to prevent such a thing happening to someone else. 
Thank You.
Robert Walker
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: jamie on June 17, 2008, 11:55:56 am
This might be of some interest.

www.joebageant.com

Jury nullification is commoners' province
Dear Joe:

As a practicing attorney I must respond to your tale of your friend Stokes (Old Dogs and Hard Time). First, the vast majority of lawyers and judges in this country are just as appalled at the hijacking of our system of "justice" as are you and your readers. Stories like that of Mr. Stokes are now just every day occurrences in courts all over the country.

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on June 22, 2008, 06:25:54 pm
Now, if we could get judges to either fulfill their proper role in a jury court or get them off the bench.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on June 24, 2008, 01:28:06 pm
FIJA article  begins on page 40.

From the publisher:
"Alright... the digital version of Restore the Republic! is on line ... this time we went after the experts to get some real solutions to the problems we are facing in America today... and it's our biggest issue yet and at the right page count to get on the news stands all across the country.  However, we're not on news stands yet but that is the goal.

So, before you browse it at your local convenience store and get yelled at for not buying it, you can immediately view/download the digital edition by clicking on the link below:
http://www.restoretherepublic.com/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,140/Itemid,107/

Please forward this link to others and post it on every forum or blog you can find."
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on June 24, 2008, 01:51:12 pm
Neat Article:

We'd mentioned the three boxes (soap, ballot & ammo) in explaining our trek to the Appleseed Rifleman course that we just completed & Iloilo Jones, head of FIJA added one more, the Jury box & Richard Boddie & Steve Cobb added the fifth (Moving Box).  Here's their great article:
--bob & lou

Check this out, by a Free State Project friend, Steve Cobb:

The Five Boxes of Liberty
Among an individual’s infinite, innumerable rights, a critical few directly defend the others. You should recognize, appreciate,  and exercise these defensive rights, without which you will eventually lose the rest. The United States Constitution mentions at least five defensive rights, easily remembered under the mnemonic “The Five Boxes of Liberty.”* They are:

The Moving Box—right of association, in particular territorially via migration
The Soap Box—right of free speech
The Ballot Box—right to a voice in your government
The Jury Box—right to a trial by jury of your peers
The Ammunition Box—right to threaten or use appropriate violence in self-defense

The US Constitution guarantees some defensive rights more clearly, completely, and emphatically than others. The freedoms of association and speech are declared immediately in the First Amendment, but while the courts have interpreted speech broadly and forcefully, association had to be detected as a limited penumbral right emanating from the right to assembly. Of the many possible types of associations, only “intimate” and “expressive” associations are deemed protected, and the law now imposes some associations undesired by one or more parties. Even the United Nation’s awful Universal Declaration of Human Rights managed to list the rights of association and movement explicitly. The right to vote runs throughout the US Constitution, but it was recognized for blacks and women only in the Fifteenth and Nineteenth Amendments respectively. The right to a trial by jury appears in the US Constitution no fewer than four times, first in Article III and then in the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Amendments. Finally, the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Second Amendment, but preceded by the enigmatic qualifier “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state….” The Founders obviously put their faith in the people to defend their own rights, and distrusted elites and centralized power, but they could have been more straightforward in their language, in particular about the underappreciated right of association.

Though subject to debate, the sequencing of the Boxes of Liberty here is no accident: each box differs in its efficacy, cost, availability, and potential for inflicting harm. You should first defend your liberty with efficient (effective, low-cost, low-harm) methods, and only after making a reasonable (or more-than-reasonable) effort should you resort to methods that involve force. Neither of the first two boxes of liberty entails violence, but which should you use first? In his well-known book “Exit, Voice, and Loyalty,” Albert O. Hirschman suggested that a dissatisfied organization member (e.g. employee, customer, pupil, spouse or citizen) has two options: leave the organization or speak out, i.e. use one of the first two Boxes of Liberty. Hirschman disapproved of the exit option, because organization members’ departure deprives the organization of the feedback necessary to reform, but, of course, members’ lack of a credible threat of exit deprives the organization of an incentive to reform. This hostility towards freedom of association continues in a more recent book by Bill Bishop, “The Big Sort: Why the Clustering of Like-Minded People is Tearing Us Apart”. Bishop shows that Americans are gathering into neighborhoods that are demographically and politically homogeneous, and he contends that this is inherently bad. Lacking daily contact with people who differ, Americans are less able to understand and sympathize with their fellow citizens. This may indeed be so, but perhaps clustering is not primitive xenophobia but a defensive reaction, an unintended consequence of well-meaning assaults on individual liberty. For example, forcing children to attend the government school closest to their homes will lead parents to carefully choose where to live. In general, increases in political power, taxation, and regulation increase the stakes in winning elections, so people are more motivated to live near their own kind so as to be on the winning side.

Freedom of association, especially its extreme form of migration, enables you to surround yourself with like-minded individuals who will be less likely to oppress you and more likely to add their voice to yours. A community of like-minded individuals is less likely to pass onerous laws, and more likely to form a sympathetic jury. You are less likely to end up in a situation requiring self-defense, but more likely to receive help if you do. You are fortunate if you already live in such a community, but what if you do not? US history is replete with migrations (the Puritans who fled Europe, the Mormons who trekked to Utah, and the blacks who left the South on north-bound trains) and autonomy movements (e.g. the Lakota Sioux and Christian Exodus). Libertarian examples also abound, including organized migrations (notably the Free State Project, targeting New Hampshire, and the Free Wyoming Project) and informal clusters like Orange County in California and Las Vegas, Nevada. The ideal community would be comprised of libertarian activists—people who may not share your personal interests, but who will defend your rights out of principle. The Founders were such people, the kind you want next door. Such a community will of course prosper, attracting new migrants less interested in the underpinning philosophy of liberty, and succeeding generations will not automatically inherit respect for these values. Migration will become necessary again, in a never-ending process of re-association and creative destruction among competing governments. Unfortunately, at the scale required to escape unjust laws in a large centralized territory, migration can be hugely costly, requiring changing jobs, straining or severing ties with friends and family, and even learning a foreign language. It is not something that you can do often.

Like the Moving Box, the Soap Box is readily available to anyone at any time, and will not harm anyone. Fortunately, freedom of speech is the most revered right in the US, interpreted so broadly as to protect flag-burning and pornography. You have ample opportunity to express your opinion and attempt to persuade your fellows. True, you may be at a disadvantage relative to rock stars and Hollywood actors, without their fame and charisma, and you may lack the raised platform of a professional journalist, but you may give it a try. Improving communications technologies, especially the web, make this increasingly easy. Exercising freedoms of association and speech both cost little at the local scale, but over large distances can be difficult and expensive, an argument for subsidiarity (maximum decentralization of government).

The final three Boxes of Liberty all risk inflicting harm. Voting, the third box of liberty, is vastly overrated and nowadays far too much faith is placed in “democracy”. Elections are held infrequently, which is good for preventing bad measures and candidates but bad for reforming existing problems. You usually have to choose the lesser among evils, with the result imposed on everyone. Given the primitive voting systems commonly used today, voting is unlikely to capture “the will of the people”, which anyway is sadly more likely to reflect personal interest rather than distributed knowledge. More important than the act of voting is participating in the process, e.g. volunteering in campaigns. It is here that you can make a significant difference. If an unjust law nevertheless does emerge from the political process, harm is guaranteed.

You can contort yourself and obey a bad law, or break it (preferably deliberately and publicly via civil disobedience) and face trial. There you will depend on the fourth box of liberty, a jury of your peers drawn from the surrounding area. If this community contains the same oppressive people who supported the unjust law, you will have little hope, though maybe just one dissenting juror will be enough to prevent conviction. If no one on the jury is informed of their power to nullify bad laws, you will have no hope at all of receiving justice. In addition to the legal costs you can expect a fine, imprisonment, forfeiture of your property, or worse. Your final recourse is self-defense, the Ammunition Box, if you choose to exercise it. When to talk, when to fight, and when to move away? In the end you will have to make that decision for yourself.

--------------

*Attribution of the original Boxes of Liberty is difficult. Steve Kubby spoke of the Four Boxes of Liberty during his 1998 campaign for Governor of California. Another account, probably fictional, attributes them to an unnamed US Senator:   http://www.uhuh.com/reports/headsup/hu168.htm

Yet another citation is “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order.”  ~ Ed Howdershelt

Thanks to Richard Boddie for the references, and Scott Bieser for the illustrations.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on June 24, 2008, 03:31:27 pm
Is there a link to this article. The link at the bottom seems to be something else. I'd like to post this on another forum, but we can't use the whole text without permission of the author or publication. Thanks!!
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on June 24, 2008, 03:58:51 pm
Is there a link to this article. The link at the bottom seems to be something else. I'd like to post this on another forum, but we can't use the whole text without permission of the author or publication. Thanks!!

http://www.libertyforall.net/?p=1335
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on June 24, 2008, 04:08:57 pm
Thanks!! :)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on June 24, 2008, 10:42:48 pm
Since we no longer have a jury of our peers, it's time to move onto the ammo box.
Anyone who has any doubt about this should read Lysander Spooner.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on June 24, 2008, 10:51:56 pm
Anyone who has any doubt about this should read Lysander Spooner.

[wiki]Lysander Spooner[/wiki] (1808–1887)

American individualist anarchist, entrepreneur, political philosopher, abolitionist, and legal theorist.

Rothbard: "And Lysander Spooner, the anarchist constitutional lawyer and associate of Tucker, enchanted me by his brilliant insight into the nature of the State, his devotion to morality and justice, and his couching of anarchistic invective in a delightful legal style.

"Spooner’s Letter to Grover Cleveland I discovered to be one of the greatest demolitions of statism ever written."

Works Online

    * Gutenberg: Essay On The Trial By Jury
    * No Treason (1867) (Wikisource)

Web

    * LysanderSpooner.org
    * BlackCrayon.com: People: Lysander Spooner
    * The Fully Informed Jury Association
    * Lysander Spooner: Libertarian Pietist by Murray Rothbard
    * Lysander Spooner Quotes at Liberty-Tree.ca
    * Lysander Spooner article from Libertyguide.com
    * Our Nestor Taken From Us via The Wayback Machine
    * Lysander Spooner's Bibliography via The Wayback Machine
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Elias Alias on June 25, 2008, 12:11:40 pm
Since we no longer have a jury of our peers, it's time to move onto the ammo box.
Anyone who has any doubt about this should read Lysander Spooner.

Please do not think I'm displeased with your post, okay? But I've got to say this now. Like-minded people are not the only readers here. You're doing just fine, vonu, but this has to be said, imo:

With full cognizance of your emotion, vonu, and the logic it contains, (which no one would argue against), I wish to remind readers here that TMM is The Mental Militia, which fires ideas at tyranny, instead of firing bullets. TMM's stance on suggesting or recommending violence is covered in our mission statement.

http://www.thementalmilitia.com/MissionStatement.html

While your statement is not a recommendation toward violence, and is simply a statement that it's time to move onto the ammo box, I feel it borders on a violation of TMM's basic premise of remaining "mental".

Thank you, vonu, for allowing me to insert this disclaimer for "other readers". I feel much better now, lol!

I hope you enjoy much future posting here!

Salute!
Elias

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Klapton Isgod on June 25, 2008, 12:40:59 pm
Thank you, vonu, for allowing me to insert this disclaimer for "other readers".
Of course WE all knew that he meant that the primary DEFENSE of individual liberty lies in our 2nd amendment right to DEFEND ourselves and our property.  But you are right... those "other readers" who are accustomed to acts of aggression would not automatically assume this, and might even see it as an opportunity to justify their acts of aggression.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Elias Alias on June 25, 2008, 09:43:21 pm
Thank you, vonu, for allowing me to insert this disclaimer for "other readers".
Of course WE all knew that he meant that the primary DEFENSE of individual liberty lies in our 2nd amendment right to DEFEND ourselves and our property.  But you are right... those "other readers" who are accustomed to acts of aggression would not automatically assume this, and might even see it as an opportunity to justify their acts of aggression.

You got it, Bro. Thanks for adding another dimension of understanding.

Salute!
Elias
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on June 26, 2008, 07:18:30 am
I'm going to gently tread on some toes here, I suspect, even though I'm fairly sure we're all on the same page in reality...

Why do so many say, "...2nd amendment right to DEFEND ourselves."  Human beings have had the absolute right of self defense, from the dawn of time, everywhere on the planet. The 2nd amendment has little or nothing to do with it except to acknowledge the fact for Americans. If the entire constitution and bill of rights vanished today, our right to self defense would not change.

I know you all know that...

I just wonder how many people who never learned that are confused by this 2nd amendment reference.

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Bedwere on June 26, 2008, 07:41:24 am
I'm going to gently tread on some toes here, I suspect, even though I'm fairly sure we're all on the same page in reality...

Why do so many say, "...2nd amendment right to DEFEND ourselves."  Human beings have had the absolute right of self defense, from the dawn of time, everywhere on the planet. The 2nd amendment has little or nothing to do with it except to acknowledge the fact for Americans. If the entire constitution and bill of rights vanished today, our right to self defense would not change.

I know you all know that...

I just wonder how many people who never learned that are confused by this 2nd amendment reference.




I never refer to it. I also say "right I was born with".
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Bill St. Clair on June 26, 2008, 08:35:59 am
Good point MamaLiberty. Maybe Second-Amendment-Affirmed Right would be a better way to say it. But maybe it would be better to leave government parchments out of it completely.

I own my body. As such I have the absolute right to ingest anything I please, and to defend myself and my property using whatever tools I please, unless my doing so directly harms another non-aggressing & non-consenting person or his/her property. And so do you. No person or group of persons has the authority to infringe on those rights in any way. Even if the whole world but you or me were to vote to do so.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on June 26, 2008, 08:49:06 am
Thank you Elias, ML and BSC:
Yes, as a human individual, your human rights are an inherent characteristic of being human; these rights are as intrinsically a part of your individual identity as the colour of your eyes or the size of your feet.  That is why they cannot be separated from your identity, your body or your thinking.
Another of those rights is the right to think for yourself and make decisions for yourself.  The concept of jurors is unique and elegant, because each juror alone can make an independent decision and render an individual verdict.  Each human possesses a sovereign mind, and while all humans have brains of the same design, each individual human brings a unique set of experiences, attitudes, observational skills and ethical priorities to the jury.  It is this diversity of views, coupled with a singularity of purpose - to render true justice - that makes the entire concept of the jury one of the most unique on our planet. 
Juries are constituted not only in courtrooms, but, throughout history, have been constituted of members of tribes, a few people from a small village, one family member from each family in the farming community, from the elders of churches, and other such configurations.  Juries have not one thing to do with government, but serve human society as a means to render justice during disputes among or between humans, when no other means has been found to solve the conflict or disagreement.

Thank you all for recognizing that, as with so many areas of our individual human lives, the right to self defense is has absolutely nothing to do with any mention or sanction by any government.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Klapton Isgod on June 26, 2008, 08:52:29 am
I'm going to gently tread on some toes here, I suspect, even though I'm fairly sure we're all on the same page in reality...

Why do so many say, "...2nd amendment right to DEFEND ourselves."  Human beings have had the absolute right of self defense, from the dawn of time, everywhere on the planet. The 2nd amendment has little or nothing to do with it except to acknowledge the fact for Americans. If the entire constitution and bill of rights vanished today, our right to self defense would not change.

I know you all know that...

I just wonder how many people who never learned that are confused by this 2nd amendment reference.


Those "other readers" have supposedly sworn to support and defend the constitution, and they frequently disregard it anyway.  They have no concept of universal rights.  They believe that our rights exist only with their permission, and the 2nd amendment reflects that "permission".  We don't actually NEED anyone's permission to defend ourselves.  But for authoritarian buttholes think we do.  My post was for their benefit.  
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on June 26, 2008, 04:27:55 pm
Since we no longer have a jury of our peers, it's time to move onto the ammo box.
Anyone who has any doubt about this should read Lysander Spooner.

Please do not think I'm displeased with your post, okay? But I've got to say this now. Like-minded people are not the only readers here. You're doing just fine, vonu, but this has to be said, imo:

With full cognizance of your emotion, vonu, and the logic it contains, (which no one would argue against), I wish to remind readers here that TMM is The Mental Militia, which fires ideas at tyranny, instead of firing bullets. TMM's stance on suggesting or recommending violence is covered in our mission statement.

http://www.thementalmilitia.com/MissionStatement.html



While your statement is not a recommendation toward violence, and is simply a statement that it's time to move onto the ammo box, I feel it borders on a violation of TMM's basic premise of remaining "mental".

Thank you, vonu, for allowing me to insert this disclaimer for "other readers". I feel much better now, lol!

I hope you enjoy much future posting here!

Salute!
Elias



That's cool, but I haven't found the telekenesis thread, yet.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on July 11, 2008, 05:00:30 pm
Nice!

I just got American Juror—FIJA Newsletter—v.20 n.1.


I guess I'm an official and accepted member of the Grand Order of FIJA supporters!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on July 11, 2008, 05:02:14 pm
 :laugh: :laugh:
Yes, you are!
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on July 11, 2008, 10:17:31 pm
       :thumbsup:

And Welcome.

Who's next ?

FIJA (http://www.fija.org)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on July 12, 2008, 12:07:47 pm
I miss Larry Dodge.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on July 12, 2008, 12:27:36 pm
I miss Larry Dodge.
I do too.  He and Honey are in Panama, having a free life.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on July 12, 2008, 12:31:51 pm
Good point MamaLiberty. Maybe Second-Amendment-Affirmed Right would be a better way to say it. But maybe it would be better to leave government parchments out of it completely.

I own my body. As such I have the absolute right to ingest anything I please, and to defend myself and my property using whatever tools I please, unless my doing so directly harms another non-aggressing & non-consenting person or his/her property. And so do you. No person or group of persons has the authority to infringe on those rights in any way. Even if the whole world but you or me were to vote to do so.


2A doesn't affirm anything. It merely tells government "hands off," and they choose to ignore it, at their peril. We just need to beef up the peril a bit.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on July 12, 2008, 01:04:28 pm
Good point MamaLiberty. Maybe Second-Amendment-Affirmed Right would be a better way to say it. But maybe it would be better to leave government parchments out of it completely.

I own my body. As such I have the absolute right to ingest anything I please, and to defend myself and my property using whatever tools I please, unless my doing so directly harms another non-aggressing & non-consenting person or his/her property. And so do you. No person or group of persons has the authority to infringe on those rights in any way. Even if the whole world but you or me were to vote to do so.

You will enjoy, if you have not read, the new FIJA brochure about 2A.
ff

2A doesn't affirm anything. It merely tells government "hands off," and they choose to ignore it, at their peril. We just need to beef up the peril a bit.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on July 12, 2008, 01:22:28 pm
You will enjoy, if you have not read, the new FIJA brochure about 2A.
ff

Do you mean this?
http://www.fija.org/docs/brochure_perfect_copyfor_web.pdf
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on July 12, 2008, 01:36:06 pm
You will enjoy, if you have not read, the new FIJA brochure about 2A.
ff

Do you mean this?
http://www.fija.org/docs/brochure_perfect_copyfor_web.pdf

Yes sir that is it.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on July 12, 2008, 01:50:57 pm
You will enjoy, if you have not read, the new FIJA brochure about 2A.
ff

Do you mean this?
http://www.fija.org/docs/brochure_perfect_copyfor_web.pdf

Yes sir that is it.

It is very good, however, I was passing those out when I was an activist at the CLP, and 2Aers are hard to find away from gun shows, where they are so thick (in both ways, concentrated and thick as a brick) that it is like mining a played out mine.
It would be really useful if we could find an insider who could provide us a list of freshly summoned jurors we could shotgun mail educational material to, so we could avoid pamphleteering outside the courthouse.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on July 12, 2008, 02:25:04 pm
vonu, of course there is no way you could know of strategies used by FIJA, either for the new 2A or the body borchure, but let me assure you that there have been some interesting and fruitful events going on.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on July 12, 2008, 02:28:19 pm
vonu, of course there is no way you could know of strategies used by FIJA, either for the new 2A or the body borchure, but let me assure you that there have been some interesting and fruitful events going on.
ff

Why, did FIJA go underground when Larry left?:-)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on July 12, 2008, 02:30:49 pm
Not at all, why do you ask?
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on July 12, 2008, 02:33:22 pm
Not at all, why do you ask?
ff

What did you mean by, "there is no way you could know of strategies used by FIJA."
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on July 12, 2008, 02:35:21 pm
Unless you are an activist, member, subscriber, or privy to some of the work done behind the scenes, especially in gun cases, there is no way you would know about a lot that goes on with FIJA's efforts.  Are you on our mailing list, do you visit the web site regularly, do you read the newsletters?
Press releases?
How would you know?
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on July 12, 2008, 02:45:52 pm
Unless you are an activist, member, subscriber, or privy to some of the work done behind the scenes, especially in gun cases, there is no way you would know about a lot that goes on with FIJA's efforts.  Are you on our mailing list, do you visit the web site regularly, do you read the newsletters?
Press releases?
How would you know?
ff

Nope, all I ever did was pass out literature and send money, when Larry was there.
After that, I got involved in approaches that seemed to offer more utility as far as my personal liberty was concerned.
Education is the best approach, across the board, to spend the philosophy of liberty. IMHO, liberty marketers have done an ineffectual job of using new technologies.
The only strategy I've used since I bailed out of the CLP is one on one. It's the only one I've found to be cost effective.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on July 17, 2008, 09:43:59 pm
Of course: it could not have been otherwise.
It's all a show these days, designed and scripted by the actors, their press and their sycophants, to uphold their frayed and decomposing  illusions of power.
As the people continue to figure that out, the show will become both more amusing and more violent.
And that will wake up more people than ever.
Sic semper tyrannis

That is why we must keep teaching.

So I pray. So I believe.
ff

A quote above my desk:

"No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn."


On Jul 17, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Mike Kemp wrote:

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74036&catid=158

is it even necessary to say 'tole ya so'?
Mike
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on August 04, 2008, 01:49:07 pm
Thought I'd paste this over here....

Vonu wrote:
I'd like to see FIJA include grand jurors, because we could fix a lot of this country's problems if we would just start passing informations onto grand juries, which are required to rule on everything, in most states.


If you visit our web site, you will see a piece on Grand Jurors there on the front page: we have distributed more than 10,000 of these, and have had some superbly fantastic successes with grand juries, which you could read about in the newsletters, which are also on line.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on August 04, 2008, 03:37:04 pm
Thought I'd paste this over here....

Vonu wrote:
I'd like to see FIJA include grand jurors, because we could fix a lot of this country's problems if we would just start passing informations onto grand juries, which are required to rule on everything, in most states.


If you visit our web site, you will see a piece on Grand Jurors there on the front page: we have distributed more than 10,000 of these, and have had some superbly fantastic successes with grand juries, which you could read about in the newsletters, which are also on line.
ff

Just like the snake that would get me, I missed that because I went by the framed content, which I've only recently learned to live with:-) Very good content from the legal point of view, might cause the lay eye to gloss. I'm not as interested in the education of grand jurors as in the public at large, which seems to ignore the value in 7A, which, properly used, could eradicate the corruption endemic in all three branches. I doubt that half of our citizens have any idea what a grand jury is.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on August 04, 2008, 04:32:10 pm
We have had very good success with getting Grand Jurors educated, after which they often refuse to indict in cases where there is obviously no actual crime.  It is great to sometimes hear about it when it happens.
Thank you for all your interest!
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on August 04, 2008, 09:03:32 pm
NH Jury Education
Nice comments, cool video!
bff


http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=54.0 (http://forum.freekeene.com/index.php?topic=54.0)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on August 10, 2008, 02:18:08 pm
LRC (http://www.lewrockwell.com):

'Rogues' and Humpty Dumpty Judges (http://www.lewrockwell.com/eddlem/eddlem24.html) by Thomas R. Eddlem

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on August 10, 2008, 08:13:46 pm
This piece is highly entertaining to me, having corresponded with Mr. Eddlem, who stand by his convictions that jurors should not render a verdict based on conscience, but must follow the Constitution. 

He means very well, but refuses to acknowledge his individual human right and responsibility to render a verdict based on conscience. 
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on August 10, 2008, 10:00:03 pm
I though you might be able to tell us something. LRC is fairly good exposure.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on August 14, 2008, 12:44:10 pm
Here is a new talk
You can go through the first speaker to get to my part.  It is the top interview listed, I think, but you will see

Fully Informed Jury Association

http://www.aunetwork.tv/

ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 14, 2008, 01:40:33 pm
Here is a new talk
You can go through the first speaker to get to my part.  It is the top interview listed, I think, but you will see

Fully Informed Jury Association

http://www.aunetwork.tv/

Is there a transcript? I can't listen to things on the internet very well. Besides, I'd like to publish it if it's ok. :)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on August 14, 2008, 01:52:41 pm
Here is a new talk
You can go through the first speaker to get to my part.  It is the top interview listed, I think, but you will see

Fully Informed Jury Association

http://www.aunetwork.tv/

Is there a transcript? I can't listen to things on the internet very well. Besides, I'd like to publish it if it's ok. :)

There's lots of great literature on the the FIJA website, fija.org
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on August 14, 2008, 02:21:01 pm
Here is a new talk
You can go through the first speaker to get to my part.  It is the top interview listed, I think, but you will see

Fully Informed Jury Association

http://www.aunetwork.tv/

Is there a transcript? I can't listen to things on the internet very well. Besides, I'd like to publish it if it's ok. :)

It's pretty long, and as far as I know, there is no transcript. 
Not to worry, there will be others.   :wub:
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on August 15, 2008, 10:53:08 am
Here is a new talk
You can go through the first speaker to get to my part.  It is the top interview listed, I think, but you will see

Fully Informed Jury Association

http://www.aunetwork.tv/

Is there a transcript? I can't listen to things on the internet very well. Besides, I'd like to publish it if it's ok. :)

There's lots of great literature on the the FIJA website, fija.org
Does that answer MamaLiberty's question?
[sound of crickets chirping]
Oh, Okay, I didn't think so.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on August 15, 2008, 11:56:05 am
Thanks, Ragnar. I'm used to rhetorical questions, so rhetorical answers are no stretch. LOL

Thanks, ff - just don't forget to send me something when you write again. <G>
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on August 16, 2008, 11:19:08 pm
Two--Four (http://www.two--four.net):

"Problem Jurors" (http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php?id=P3910)

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on August 18, 2008, 02:26:32 pm
Here's a nice site....
http://www.assertrights.com/
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 02, 2008, 09:28:42 pm
Today from Vin:

Hi, Glenn --

No.

To paraphrase Churchill, while the jury trial isn't perfect, it's the best system we've yet come up with.

Certainly prejudiced members of a jury may be less sympathetic to a defendant because of race, sexual preference, whatever. But the odds against ALL 12 being willing to knowingly, wrongly convict are astronomical, and it only takes one holdout to prevent a conviction.

Besides, an innocent party's case should never reach the jury. Prosecutors have a responsibility not to overcharge -- and not to charge the innocent, at all. Judges are allowed to -- and should and do -- dismiss charges after the prosecution rests if their case appears too thin (defense attorneys routinely make a motion for just such a dismissal before starting their defense), without ever sending the case to the jury.

And finally, juries do not sentence. Judges do. If a judge believes the assigned punishment is too harsh, he can suspend the sentence.

Juries can and do make mistakes. But the now-common lie that "You must swear in advance to enforce the law as I give it to you" is universally designed to result in MORE convictions and HARSHER sentences. If even 20 percent of Americans think drugs should be re-legalized, any RANDOMLY SELECTED jury -- one not stacked in favor of conviction through "voir dire" questioning -- should contain two to three abolitionists, and drug convictions should be almost impossible to obtain ... which would end the War on Drugs overnight without ANY new legislation. That's precisely the kind of thing our system of jury trial is supposed to accomplish -- just as it became impossible to get Northern juries to convict anyone of "harboring a runaway slave" in the decade before the Civil War.

The whole "Allowed to exercise their rights, racist white juries will use the courts to lynch innocent black defendants" argument is a fantasy red herring. Would-be lynch mobs rarely wait around hoping to be called for jury duty.

There's a whole chapter on this stuff, titled "Voir Dire: A French term for jury stacking" -- including a detailed appendix on 'The Odds of  a Randomly Selected Jury Failing to Convict" -- in my first book, "Send in the Waco Killers."

 Best Wishes,

-- V.S.
 

"Editor: a person employed by a newspaper, whose business it is to separate the wheat from the chaff, and see that the chaff is printed."
-- Elbert Hubbard (1856-1915)

"Every journalist has a novel in him, which is an excellent place for it."
-- Russel Lynes (1910-1991)

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-- H.L. Mencken




Subject
Jury nullification question

Vin,

First, thanks for the education on jury rights.

I understand that a jury can rule a law is unfair and let someone off
who may have broken the law but decided the law was unjust.  Does the
opposite work as well?  If the jury feels that a person is guilty and
should be locked up for 20 years because he is a "menace to society",
can they somehow circumvent the law that says the guy can only get 3
years in prison?

In-other-words, you talk a lot about how a jury can not convict a
person, can the jury work the same in reverse and create a more harsh
sentence than as asked for?

Thanks, I always enjoy your columns.  They make me think.

Glenn W

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 03, 2008, 05:45:04 pm
Please share this around.  Thank you ~ ff

For Immediate release
Jury Rights Day September 5, 2008
This Friday, September 5, 2008, marks the 338th anniversary of the day when jurors refused to convict William Penn of violating England's Conventicle Acts, despite clear evidence that he acted illegally by preaching a Quaker sermon.  In refusing to convict Penn, the jurors refused to enforce what they knew to be an unjust law.  This is known as jury nullification.
By refusing to enforce what they knew was an unjust law, the Penn jurors not only served justice, but provided a basis for our First Amendment rights to freedom of speech, religion, and peaceable assembly.  For their refusal to obey the judge's instruction to find Penn guilty, the judge sent four of Penn's jurors to prison for nine weeks. Their later release and exoneration established forever the English and American doctrine that it is the right and responsibility of all jurors to decide matters of law and fact in any case before them. Jurors stand as the last line of defense for people being prosecuted under unjust laws by overzealous government prosecutors and court officials.
The founders of this nation intended that jurors in all cases would know of their rights and responsibilities to judge the law, its application, and the facts in each case, to ensure that justice is served.  The Sixth and Seventh Amendments are included in the Bill of Rights to guarantee that every person brought to trial has the benefit of the protection of a jury. 
It was understood by the founders that all matters brought to the courts were to be considered by a jury of independent, free individuals, who were not beholden to the courts or government, and who would freely render a verdict based on justice, even if in direct opposition to the courts and the law.
Jury nullification is an integral part of our judicial system, serving as one of the "checks and balances" required by a free society. An individual juror has the power to stop an unjust prosecution by refusing to convict. This fact is unknown to most jurors today, and has contributed greatly to the decline of the authority of the jury in our court system.

Our Founding Fathers accepted the common law principle of jury nullification as an important safeguard for a free society: a test that all laws must pass. Jury nullification has been used by jurors throughout our history to "nullify" unpopular and unjust laws, from laws against free speech to slavery to Prohibition.

The Fully Informed Jury Association (www.fija.org) is a non-profit association dedicated to educating all Americans about their rights, powers, and responsibilities as trial jurors. FIJA publishes and distributes educational material but depends upon grassroots activists to inform jurors of their rights and to undertake state-level lobbying or ballot-issue efforts.
Governors across the nation have signed Jury Rights Day Proclamations recognizing this right and authority of the juror to render a verdict based on conscience and in the service of justice.  This year, Proclamations have come from Connecticut, the State of Washington, and from Alaska's Governor, Sarah Palin, who is now a Vice-Presidential candidate.
This September 5, private groups across the nation will hand out educational literature, provide interviews, give talks to civic groups, and send letters to their local newspapers to encourage people to learn more about the rights and responsibilities of jury service, as well as to encourage those on trial to demand their right to a trial by jury.
 
For additional information on juror rights, call the Fully Informed Jury Association's toll-free line at 1-800-TEL-JURY, or visit their website at www.fija.org. To help spread the word, you can contact your local or state FIJA worker through the list of State Contacts on the website.
 
The Fully Informed Jury Association is a not-for-profit research and educational group dedicated to informing all Americans of their right and duty to judge both the law and the facts, and to render a verdict based on their conscience and their own best sense of justice, even if contrary to the directions of the court.
Contact:
Iloilo Marguerite Jones
Executive Director
406-442-7800
aji@fija.org
http://www.fija.org
675 words
###

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on September 03, 2008, 07:10:04 pm
Please share this around.  Thank you ~ ff

For Immediate release
Jury Rights Day September 5, 2008
This Friday, September 5, 2008, marks ....
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
Contact:
Iloilo Marguerite Jones
Executive Director
406-442-7800
aji@fija.org
http://www.fija.org
675 words
###



Hey FF how are you ?

If I cut and paste it in its entirety [excepting your little intro line = Please share this around.  Thank you ~ ff] May I send it to my local newspaper ?
Would it do any good, do you think, If I were to forward it to all of the national rags ?
I will send it to all of the local papers.

Stay Safe,

gooch

edit for brevity
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 03, 2008, 07:57:39 pm
Here is the short version!

For Immediate release

###

Jury Rights Day September 5, 2008

Friday marks the 338th anniversary of when jurors refused to convict William Penn of violating England's Conventicle Acts, despite clear evidence that he acted illegally by preaching a Quaker sermon.  In refusing to convict Penn, the jurors ignored what they knew to be an unjust law.  This is known as jury nullification.

By refusing to enforce what they knew was an unjust law, the Penn jurors served justice, and provided a basis for our First Amendment rights to freedom of speech, religion, and peaceable assembly.  For refusing to find Penn guilty, the judge sent four of Penn's jurors to prison. Their exoneration fixed forever the English and American doctrine that jurors have the responsibility to decide both matters of law and fact in any case before them. Individual jurors are the last line of defense for people who are prosecuted under bad laws by overzealous prosecutors and court officials.

The Founders intended that jurors would use their rights and responsibilities to judge the law and the facts in every trial, and do justice.  The Sixth and Seventh Amendments were included in the Bill of Rights to guarantee that every person brought to trial has Juror Protection. 

Juror nullification is integral to our judicial system. It is one of the "checks and balances" of justice required by a free society. An individual juror has the authority to stop an unjust prosecution by refusing to convict.  No reason for the verdict is required. Most Grand and Petit Jurors do not know about their authority.  Knowledge of this authority must be restored to protect us.

Our Founders embraced juror nullification as necessary to a free society.  Nullification is the test that all laws must pass.  Juror nullification has been used by jurors throughout our history to "nullify" unpopular and unjust laws, including laws against witches, publishing the truth, free speech, religion, hiding slaves, and Prohibition.

The Fully Informed Jury Association (www.fija.org) is dedicated to educating all Americans about the authority of the Juror.  FIJA publishes and distributes educational material but depends upon grassroots activists to inform jurors of their rights and to undertake state-level lobbying or ballot-issue efforts.

###

Contact:
Iloilo Marguerite Jones
Executive Director
aji@fija.org
http://www.fija.org

361 words

 

 
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: slidemansailor on September 03, 2008, 07:59:39 pm
I have been meaning to edit the FIJA releases or write my own that passes the limbo-rod our local newspapers set at 250 words (nearly all of them) and 200 words (the biggest paper).  

Too many urgent things getting in the way.

Anybody else up for a edit?  I'll send it, I promise.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 03, 2008, 08:19:27 pm
For Immediate release

###

Jury Rights Day September 5, 2008

Friday marks the 338th anniversary of when jurors refused to convict William Penn of violating England's Conventicle Acts, despite clear evidence that he acted illegally by preaching a Quaker sermon.  In refusing to convict Penn, the jurors ignored what they knew to be an unjust law.  This is known as jury nullification.

By refusing to enforce what they knew was an unjust law, the Penn jurors served justice, and provided a basis for our First Amendment rights to freedom of speech, religion, and peaceable assembly.  For refusing to find Penn guilty, the judge sent four of Penn's jurors to prison. Their exoneration fixed forever the English and American doctrine that jurors have the responsibility to decide both matters of law and fact in any case before them. Individual jurors are the last line of defense for people who are prosecuted under bad laws by overzealous prosecutors and court officials.

The Founders intended that jurors would use their rights and responsibilities to judge the law and the facts in every trial, and do justice.  The Sixth and Seventh Amendments were included in the Bill of Rights to guarantee that every person brought to trial has Juror Protection. 

For more information, visit www.fija.org or call 1-800-TEL-JURY.

###
Contact:
Iloilo Marguerite Jones
Executive Director
406-442-7800
aji@fija.org
http://www.fija.org
210 words
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: slidemansailor on September 03, 2008, 08:23:13 pm
19 minutes flat!

I guess I better do my part now.

Good job, feralfae
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on September 03, 2008, 08:34:02 pm
Here is the short version!

For Immediate release

###

Jury Rights Day September 5, 2008

[snip - edited for reply posting brevity only - snip]

###

Contact:

Iloilo Marguerite Jones

Executive Director

406-442-7800

aji@fija.org

http://www.fija.org

362 words


Thanks FF

I edited the response here not the actual article you wrote ....  :rolleyes:
I think the shorter one will stand a better chance of getting published. (?)
I was going to send it in as a "helpful hint" to my neighbors. [fellow citizens in my little burg]
I would have to buy space [which I cannot afford to do ...] If I were going to put it in as a "public notice".
As it is I will send it to the editor and hope that he will accept it as a worthwhile info tidbit.
This poverty stuff is NOT for wimps lemme tell you.

I would like an edited version SMS If you have one available. (?)
Preferably one that FF has approved since this is her writing, organization et cetera.

Thanks to you both.

gooch

WOW !
 I didn't even get to post my reply before the short-short version is up .....
That fairie dust is potent stuff ....
Whew  .... you are quick FF  I am impressed.  [You had a short version all ready to go right ?]

I'll use that one. OK ?




edit for gramber and spelink
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: slidemansailor on September 03, 2008, 09:23:06 pm
Okay.  I did Boise, Nampa, Lewiston and Twin Falls... okay, FF did 'em, I just put my signature to her work.  Who knows, we might help someone achieve justice.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on September 03, 2008, 10:03:45 pm
Okay.  I did Boise, Nampa, Lewiston and Twin Falls... okay, FF did 'em, I just put my signature to her work.  Who knows, we might help someone achieve justice.

Yep ditto on the FF did'em part.
I sent it out [exactly as FF put it up above] to the major TV media ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and the local papers in Corpus Christi, Victoria, George West, Cuero and Beeville.
[All are county seats in their respective counties.]
I sent it out as an Email. I wish I had the facilities I would have sent it fax as well.

Prefaced with this little note ....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,

I wanted to bring this to your attention in hopes
that your readers would be inspired to learn more
about our Freedoms and Liberties here in the United
States of America.
Most students in our educational systems haven't
heard the story of the history our jury system.
Thank You for your including this in your next issue.

Regards,

Gooch
Capt USMM Ret

---------------------------------------------------------------

The respectful attitude is a kowtow to the fact that they do control their papers/stations and what gets printed/aired.
It's called being politic.
So flame me ....
On second thought .... a wet noodle sounds better ....  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 04, 2008, 08:59:49 am
Too late to get a "letter to the editor" for our weekly paper, but maybe I can create a news story instead. <G> I intend to let the editor know of my plans just in case he wants to cover it.

I'll go down town tomorrow and hand out FIJA literature at the post office. The courthouse is right across the street, but there's so little traffic in and out of it nobody would benefit if I stood there.

I will stay on the "public sidewalk" of the post office, however, because I will be fully armed as usual. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: NuclearDruid on September 04, 2008, 09:10:30 am
I will stay on the "public sidewalk" of the post office, however, because I will be fully armed as usual. We'll see what happens.

Wish you luck ML!

ND
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on September 04, 2008, 03:26:35 pm
I was arrested in front of the post office in Laramie, Wyoming, in 1987, for soliciting signatures for a petition to place Ron Paul on the ballot. It took the US Attorney for Wyoming to statighten out the Postmaster for Laramie.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 04, 2008, 04:28:35 pm
I was arrested in front of the post office in Laramie, Wyoming, in 1987, for soliciting signatures for a petition to place Ron Paul on the ballot. It took the US Attorney for Wyoming to statighten out the Postmaster for Laramie.

I'll have a newspaper reporter on scene, and I'm rather well known in this town... so that ought to be interesting. LOL

And this isn't Laramie, thank God. :)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: vonuvan on September 04, 2008, 04:30:44 pm
I was arrested in front of the post office in Laramie, Wyoming, in 1987, for soliciting signatures for a petition to place Ron Paul on the ballot. It took the US Attorney for Wyoming to statighten out the Postmaster for Laramie.

I'll have a newspaper reporter on scene, and I'm rather well known in this town... so that ought to be interesting. LOL

And this isn't Laramie, thank God. :)

It wouldn't be a bad idea to find out how far the current US Attorney for Wyoming might go in defending your rights, both 1A & 2A.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 04, 2008, 05:02:37 pm
Too bad the press release wasn't put up a week or so ago. I'm going to publish it, but it would have been great to have it up for this Monday instead of next Monday. Oh well.

Quote
It wouldn't be a bad idea to find out how far the current US Attorney for Wyoming might go in defending your rights, both 1A & 2A.

I have no intention of asking anyone. Asking wouldn't change anything, and I'm not interested in anyone's "permission."

It can be the next "Heller" case if they want it to be. But I don't expect any trouble here in Newcastle. Relax.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 04, 2008, 05:06:30 pm
The first Jury Rights Day first press release went out on August 21, and was also posted to the FIJA web site and forum that day.
I think it was sent to you, but maybe not.  I know Vin and others picked up on it that first day.

The new release has the recent signers of Proclamations, however.

ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 04, 2008, 05:15:12 pm
No, I didn't get it. Can't imagine I wouldn't have posted it if I had... maybe my spam filter ate it. Sigh... once in a while I miss one.  :BangHead:

Anyway, it's up... and I'll write about my adventures at the post office tomorrow as well. Of course, that will probably be very boring. :)

Edit: And NOW I see this posted below in past topics!! Don't see how I missed that either. Getting to be just too much to see and do around here. sigh
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 04, 2008, 05:15:51 pm
No, I didn't get it. Can't imagine I wouldn't have posted it if I had... maybe my spam filter ate it. Sigh... once in a while I miss one.  :BangHead:

Anyway, it's up... and I'll write about my adventures at the post office tomorrow as well. Of course, that will probably be very boring. :)

Have fun!
ff

Please, everyone, post your stories of what you did on or for Jury Rights Day.
Please post here, and if you will, on the FIJA forums as well.
Thank you so much!  I will run these stories in the next FIJA newsletter along with the Proclamations.
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 04, 2008, 06:56:01 pm
Sept. 5 Is Jury Rights Day. Do You Know Yours?
by Vin Suprynowicz
http://www.lewrockwell.com/suprynowicz/suprynowicz93.html
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 04, 2008, 11:25:36 pm
Thank you all, for all your magnificent assistance and support in promoting Jury Rights Day.   
You are most kind and generous of your time.
I hope we will soon have more wire services at our disposal.

I go on vacation tomorrow, and plan to meditate, spend a bit of time in the mountains, and the rest of my hours in my studio, enjoying the creation of my current porcelain series of jars.  They are quite beautiful and I am happy to make them.

Thank you again for your kind generosity of time and effort.
         ~ toward entelechy,
                                        ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: slidemansailor on September 05, 2008, 12:37:13 pm
FIJA (http://www.fija.org/) clearly gave me way-more-than-enough time to get my message to the newspapers and/or organize an event. I can't help but feel a twinge of guilt I did not do more. 

In my defense, our new sow's-ear farmhouse still has far too many yet-to-be-unpacked moving boxes, much more plumbing, wiring, doors and windows needing my attention, and I am just beginning to get my computer running again after having to reload Windoze and reformat my C drive in order to make it work well enough to submit job applications so's I can quit eating my diminishing silver coin collection.

The main newspaper in town just called to say my submission reached the top of the pile too late, but they are happy to publish changing it to past tense if that is okay.  SURE.  Thank you.

Thanks to ff's quick response, I did get SOMETHING done.

The jury you educate might be yours. (http://www.fija.org/)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 05, 2008, 02:28:59 pm
First report from Newcastle, Wyoming.

As I expected, it was pretty boring. The newspaper guy didn't show up, though he waved as he went by once. <G> A woman with a gun, walking back and forth in front of the post office handing out literature is just not "news" here.

I was actually surprised at how many people cheerfully accepted the literature and the many who made positive comments. Two said they had never been called to jury duty in their lives. One was 40 and the other said she was 52!! Others said they had been on a jury at least once. Only two people outright refused the pamphlet, and a few walked around to indicate they didn't welcome my approach.

One young lady said she liked my gun! Nobody else seemed to notice it or care.

The "cop" in the "Homeland Security" truck from the Sheriff's department drove by... and didn't even look. A city policeman went in to the lawyer's office next door to the post office, and he looked but didn't react that I could see... just went on in. I didn't see him come out.

Lots of waves and smiles from folks driving past.

I handed out about 3 dozen of the Jury rights primer and about a dozen of the True/false flyer.

Came home for lunch and will go back this afternoon with more stuff to hand out. I didn't take enough this morning!

Here are the pictures: http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/fijaday-newcastle.htm

Edit at 4:15 PM... I'll go back tomorrow. I wimped out this afternoon.... it's raining. :(
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Bill St. Clair on September 05, 2008, 03:58:48 pm
Bravo, Mama Liberty!

Why, oh why, did I ever leave Wyoming?
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on September 05, 2008, 04:04:15 pm
Bravo, Mama Liberty!

Why, oh why, did I ever leave Wyoming?

I dunno, Bill... but there's plenty of room left here if you want to come back. <G> We'd love to have you!
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Bill St. Clair on September 05, 2008, 04:38:12 pm
And I'd love to return home. But I've accumulated some beloved attachments, and it just won't work at present.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on October 02, 2008, 05:23:21 pm
Pictures are not yet up on the FIJA supply shop, but we thought you would like to be among the first to see FIJA's new t-shirts and the 2009 calendar:

We Are Everywhere! T-Shirt
Front: 
(http://getyourhandsdirty.net/Graphics/IMG_0783_.jpg)
Back: 
(http://getyourhandsdirty.net/Graphics/IMG_0784_.jpg)

Know Your Rights T-Shirt
Front: 
(http://getyourhandsdirty.net/Graphics/IMG_0535_.jpg)
Back: 
(http://getyourhandsdirty.net/Graphics/IMG_0532_.jpg)

2009 Calendar:
(http://getyourhandsdirty.net/Graphics/IMG_0789_.jpg)

You can order t-shirts (in the Miscellaneous category), your 2009 calendar (in the Brochures and Outreach category), and other FIJA products including brochures, essays, books, bumper stickers, mugs, DVDs, and more at the FIJA online supply shop (http://www.fija.org/index.php?page=supplyshop).  We are working on getting a drop-down menu of size choices for the second t-shirt up in the supply shop and updating a few other things (like shipping) in the next few days.  If you have any problems ordering on the web, drop me a PM with your name and mailing address and I'll see that an order form is sent out to you in the mail ASAP.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on February 06, 2009, 03:11:45 pm
FIJA (http://fija.org) says:
The primary function of the independent juror is not, as many think, to dispense
punishment to fellow citizens accused of breaking various laws, but rather to protect
fellow citizens from tyrannical abuses of power by government.

Then from Philadelphia in 1691 comes:

William Bradford- Printer (http://www.famousamericans.net/williambradfordprinter)

In his
defense he contended, in opposition to the ruling of the court directing the jury to find
only as to the facts of the printing, that the jurors were judges of the law as well as of
the fact, and competent to determine whether the subject-matter was seditious, a point
that, in after times, was much controversial in similar cases.
Having incurred the dis-
pleasure of the dominant party in Philadelphia, and receiving an invitation to establish a
printing-press in New York, he settled there in 1693, ...
[/list]
[bold added]


The history of mankind then and still: Liberty v Tyranny
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on March 02, 2009, 03:27:28 pm
We have been working on this case from the FIJA National Office...imj   ^_^
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=274846&src
Hi to everyone.
 The forward, at the bottom of this email, from Dan, Norml rep, has the link to my letter to the editor which was printed last week in a large Chicago area paper. It is mostly word for word from FIJA literature. Interesting it was printed the day before Richards court day. I would still like more information on writing letters to editors and follow up letters to editors? Do we do that? How does one continue to be published in the same papers?
 Update to the trial of Richard. IL against Rich, crime, possession with intent of #400 of marijuana, not his and never was. This is a bit lengthy, but the current event of this story is shocking of how inadequate our court system is working.
 Most of you are aware of Richards court case as of Dec 2008. At that time he was 18 months into fighting the charges against him. The courts just changed the criminal judge and prosecutor in the case. He was working with a PD as he could not come up with funding, $20-$30 being asked by any Dupage lawyer we spoke with at the time. Who, really only wanted to make a deal, and felt the case was hopeless.  The PD showed his complete lack of understanding of the law, failed at putting through his first motion as the new judge intimidated him, so he withdrew, and was unavailable ever, to discuss the case by phone or in person. Trial was set for March 2nd. In Dec the PD asked to put one more motion through. The date to present the motion was Feb 27th.
 
Starting Feb 2nd, Rich called his PD every day with questions. By Feb he still had not received a call back, and the PD's office told him NOT to come down to the office, as the PD will not see him. I typed a list of our concerns regarding the case and asked for an up date of what he was doing for this motion, sat in the PD's office for a day, Feb 13th, and finally left the letter with the receptionist who assured me he would get it.
 
No communication from the PD at all. Through the urging of Ken@ Freedom rings, I contacted a lawyer through the Norml website, (who I had researched in December and contacted but could not afford the terms at the time) who has a great deal of drug law experience, and who also wrote the Seizure Rights Handbook.
Desperate, I contacted him again, and he remembered our case. He had also just finished a case and was completely free. He saw us and reduced his price to a set fee which we could come up with by borrowing funds, not in Richards name but through friends, at a fraction of what anyone, including him, had quoted us previously. He took the case. He has seen many mistakes and flaws in the case history, and feels he has a strong chance in proving Richard innocent. This was on Feb 19th.
 
We went to court on Feb 27th, to request a change in council. The PD told our new lawyer that he was not prepared for the motion he was to put through that day. The state said they were not prepared to present against any motion at that time and that the state and the PD could not agree on certain aspects of the motion the PD was working on.
Richard and his new lawyer go before the new judge, who accuses Richard personally of stalling practices in the request of a change of council. He blames Richard for the length of time the case has been on the books, and drills him unmercifully in the court room as to how much money he makes and where did the money come from for the new lawyer. He tells Richard he is not indigent and should of never received a PD. (The previously judge approved the request for a PD). He is visibly angry. Our new lawyer insists that there will not be stalling and that he is ready with motions in hand, that day, and ready for a trial any time the court is willing. The PD then states he is very willing to withdrawal.  The judge is still not willing. The prosecutor then speaks up, assures that the state does not have any problem with the change of council. The prosecutor had to speak up twice and assure the judge it was not a problem before the judge relented and allowed the withdrawal of the PD.
It was shocking to witness. So Richard is stuck with a judge who is very prejudiced against him. Any delays in his case have all been caused by the state. Any transcripts of past court dates will prove that. The state has delayed month after month in his case. It took four months for the PD to present the first motion, (which he withdrew), as the state was never ready. Of course that was a different judge who sat through 18 months of delays.  But, it was never Richards fault.
So now we are on shaky ground again, even with an excellent lawyer. So much for a fair and impartial judge.
We are wondering what to do with a prejudiced judge.  Our lawyer will leave Richards case with appeal possibilities in case the worst happens. We will be looking for a freedom fighter appeals lawyer, as this new lawyer stated he does not do appeals. I want to be prepared prior to trial, with an appeal. Does anyone know of any freedom fighter appeals lawyer?
 
The judge is Peter Dockery. If anyone has ideas let me know. I would like to do a time outline of the case for him to see it was just the way the courts let the case run. (I don't know if it is allowed). Also, due to fear, it was never mentioned in court the incompetence and non-representation of the PD, and that was why Richard resorted at the last minute to a change of council. What a story. But I bet any poor slob who has a run through the court system has the same to say!!!
Next court date is March 20th, for the presenting of 2 motions, and then a trial date might be set.
 
Please let me know how I can help the freedom cause in any way, and to help with FIJA information in Du Page county. (For now).
Thank you Ken and David for pushing us to get a real lawyer, and to Mike for the great visual of the PD leading Richard to prison, all the while protecting his rights. Its haunting. And Ken, have you talked with Dan Linn about having him on your show?
 
Leslie Rieser and Richard Forty
 
Keep scrolling down to the link for the letter to the editor.


Leslie,
I read the letter that you had published in the Daily Herald and thought
it was excellent.

Keep up the good work!
Thanks,
dan linn
Dan Linn
Executive Director Illinois NORML
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Bill St. Clair on March 02, 2009, 04:18:12 pm
You've reminded me of Peter McWilliams' "trial", where the judge would not allow him to present a proper defense, ruling any evidence that might have convinced a reasonable jury as out of bounds. Or Rick Stanley's "trial", where the judge forbade mentioning the US Constitution in court. No choice in such a case but to get a new judge, by fair means or foul.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on March 04, 2009, 10:16:32 pm
You've reminded me of Peter McWilliams' "trial", where the judge would not allow him to present a proper defense, ruling any evidence that might have convinced a reasonable jury as out of bounds. Or Rick Stanley's "trial", where the judge forbade mentioning the US Constitution in court. No choice in such a case but to get a new judge, by fair means or foul.

You reminded me of what I said here (https://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=12562.msg164466#msg164466), which was in a discussion about the Brown's tax trial, which I will just quote the post in its entirety so you don't have to follow a link just to read the post:

Yep.  They can pass all of the laws legalizing theft, rape, or murder that they want, it won't ever make it right, though.
True, but until someone with heavier artillery and a better developed sense of right an wrong shows up they will be able to get away with it.

Hint - the courtroom scene in The Black Arrow (http://astore.amazon.com/clairewolfeco-20/detail/0976251604/002-6226869-4992865), pages 249 - 251 and Chapter 15

I'm sure that will go over real well with the judge. What will actually happen is that the cops will drag them back into the courtroom in handcuffs and orange jumpsuits, and the trial will continue to its inevitable conclusion whether the Browns agree to it or not.
...

Most likely. They have made the point for all to see that they are more than willing to plead their case in a fair trial. The court won't want a fair trial.

...
This is what happens when you rely on magic to deal with the government. There is no legal incantation that will make the IRS suddenly leave people alone.

Magic? Expecting the government to actually state a law that makes one liable is magic? No, there is no legal incantation. Unless you consider, "fully informed jury; fully informed jury; fully informed jury; fully informed jury" an incantation. If jurors would, as Marcy Brooks did in the Whitey Harrell case, simply ask to see the law that the accused was charged with violating and then acquit if none is stated, the government would lose every time. But, due to voir dire, one can no longer be assured of an impartial jury of one's peers (I have no peers, anyway  :rolleyes:). How any jury could find a verdict of guilty if they hear the judge state the words, as was stated on numerous occasions in the Irwin Schiff trial, "I will not allow the law in my courtroom!" I will never know.  :sheep:

This might actually belong in the Money, Tax... section, any whooo.

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on March 10, 2009, 01:37:48 pm
LRC (http://www.lewrockwell.com):

My Face-Off With a Federal Judge (http://www.lewrockwell.com/eddlem/eddlem28.html) by Thomas R. Eddlem

voir dire.
[/list]
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Scarmiglione' on March 10, 2009, 02:17:29 pm
That's a great post over there.  I found it very interesting how the prosecution and judge were both highly aware of jury nullification, and worked very hard to maintain that common people are incapable of understanding the Constitution as it is written.

Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on March 10, 2009, 06:28:31 pm
It's also interesting that Mr. Eddlem does not cotton to the idea of jury nullification. What a maroon.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Scarmiglione' on March 10, 2009, 09:28:38 pm
It's also interesting that Mr. Eddlem does not cotton to the idea of jury nullification. What a maroon.

I don't know anything about Mr. Eddlem, but "on the record", neither do I.  On the record.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on March 13, 2009, 02:05:26 pm
Nice one on Lew Rockwell

A Look at the Jury System and Our Participation in It

by Graham Dugas

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/dugas1.html

ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on June 07, 2009, 12:33:18 pm
I'm slow...

"Fully Informed Jury Association © 2009 | Site designed by R.S. Consulting
This site is best viewed with Firefox, Safari, or Opera."

Just saw the new cover page at www.fija.org (not much change, but nice:-).
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: jessme on July 27, 2009, 03:54:25 am
Okay, I am new here and hesistate a bit, but just felt I just had to ask the question on my mind about all this. Wouldn't someone who idenitifies themselves as a "fully informed juror" be that much less likely to be picked for jury duty in the first place? I mean, if I was an attorney, I would think of as many reasons as I could to recuse those possible jurors, and indeed am surprised something along those lines hasn't happened yet.

And the story I read got me enraged and saddened at the same time. While violent offenders are going free, we have a judge who is prejudiced, as he has already decided in his mind that the person before him is guilty. If he was a just judge then he would have to recuse himself but we all know how unlikely that is to happen. For what it's worth, my prayers go with him.

I think if we can sway the court of public opinion, then we might have a chance..secrets grow and fester in the dark, but will heal when exposed to the light of the day. That is why columns (or blogs as well in today's universes), letters to the editor, and letting it be known by many that the media will shine a light on this and it will not go away...that might be what it takes to make it work.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on July 27, 2009, 11:25:02 am
Go to the FIJA website (link in a post below) and find the advice to prospective jurors. Generally speaking, it is NOT a good idea to mention fully informed jurors or that you are aware of such if you are called to serve on a jury. Yes, it's pretty much an automatic dismissal. You have to learn enough about it, and reconcile your actions with your conscience in order to "lie" enough to actually get seated. I wouldn't have any problem not saying anything about it, and I seriously doubt anyone would be asked about that specifically.

The part of the jury selection I can't get anywhere near comfortable with is the long list of personal questions the attorneys are allowed to ask. This is JURY STACKING, pure and simple - long before the FIJ part would come in. If you are willing to answer invasive, even stupid personal questions and appear dumb as a rock to get on a jury, you have it made. The prosecuting attorney does NOT want bright, intelligent people who think for themselves... so you must lie like a rug to fool them.

Dumb....
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on July 27, 2009, 01:41:16 pm
Quote
Quote ML
Dumb....
Yep.
And the only way that the PTB keep control of the legal system.
That and the Prussian Public School  "Equally Dumb" System.

With no [or extremely limited and strictly guided] exposure to the history and function of the Jury System 90% of the "jury pool" fits right in and TPTB get to make even unconstitutional laws stick.  Whatever they want.

A totalitarian perversion of the system set up by Charlemagne.
But exactly what Fascism or Socialism needs to survive to encourage the development of Communism.

BUT ...You already knew that.
 
Thanks for letting me say it for any here that didn't.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: jessme on July 27, 2009, 02:11:48 pm
MamaLiberty, thank you for your words of wisdom. I will have to put them into practice if I am ever called to jury duty, which, since I am a registered voter, it is likely to happen.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on July 27, 2009, 02:24:47 pm
I think there is a lot more to the selection of the jury pool than just voter registration. I have been actually seated on a jury ONCE in my 62 years, so far, and that was in 1972.  I got a "jury summons" a few times when I was working as a hospice nurse, but was only selected once in about 1999. When I told the attorney that I could NOT be 'impartial' in that particular case, they sent me home. I've never gotten a "summons" since.

Who knows how they decide these things...

And, since I moved to Wyoming in 2006, I have little chance of ever being on a jury again because there has been NO jury trial here for at least the last five years! In this county, a loose dog and a DUI on the same day are regarded as a crime wave. :)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: jessme on July 27, 2009, 04:22:59 pm
I was called up for jury duty once here in OK, and did three days before I came down with a rotten flu and had to stay home and one of the alternate's took over. That was about five years ago, and they haven't called me back since.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on August 06, 2009, 03:08:04 pm
Chapter in Benjamin R Tucker & the Champions of Liberty (http://uncletaz.com/liberty) (year- ?1980?)

The Jury: Defender or Oppressor (http://uncletaz.com/liberty/jury.html)     by Michael E. Coughlin


Goes through history of jury as protector of liberty against the state
    including the issues raised in Spooner's Trial by Jury.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: socalserf on August 06, 2009, 03:25:17 pm
I have a jury duty summons for next month.

This could be FUN!
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: slidemansailor on August 06, 2009, 09:37:43 pm
I'm thinking the subscriber lists to TV Guide and Star magazines would probably suit the needs of the legal professionals who own the system.  Driver's license and voter registration dilute the pool with occasional thinkers.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on April 02, 2010, 08:45:07 pm
Journal of Libertarian Studies
Volume 15 Num. 2, Spring 2001

The Rise and Fall of Jury Nullification

     by James Ostrowski

http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_3.pdf



Ostrowski is a lawyer in Buffalo, N.Y. and regularly writes liberty
at Mises and LRC.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on April 04, 2010, 12:10:29 am
Thank you very much for this Junker.
 :wub: :wub:
I have posted it over on the FIJA forum, for I did not know about it at all.
Thank you very much.
*<twinkles>*
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on April 04, 2010, 11:54:32 am
"...I did not know about it at all."

Yeah, me too. I was reading Ostrowski's book, Political Class Dismissed,
and saw it in a footnote. I've a background task of looking through
JLS, but it goes s-l-o-w-l-y.

"... on the FIJA forum"

Thanks.



James Ostrowski is an attorney in Buffalo, New York and
author of Political Class Dismissed: Essays Against Politics,
Including "What's Wrong With Buffalo."  His latest book is
Direct Citizen Action: How We Can Win the Second American
Revolution Without Firing a Shot
.
It seems Buffalo lives under a Tammany-like machine that he's
been paying against fer years. Thus thinking about such probs
let him see the relevance of Rothbard... Mises...LRC...
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 14, 2010, 04:07:43 pm
Some nice quots from Liberty Tree:
"For more than six hundred years -- that is, since the Magna Carta in 1215 -- there has been no clearer principle of English or American constitutional law than that, in criminal cases, it is not only the right and duty of juries to judge what are the facts, what is the law, and what was the moral intent of the accused; but that it is also their right, and their primary and paramount duty, to judge the justice of the law, and to hold all laws invalid, that are, in their opinion, unjust, oppressive, and all persons guiltless in violating or resisting the execution of such laws."
-- Lysander Spooner
(1808-1887) Political theorist, activist, abolitionist
Source: AN ESSAY ON THE TRIAL BY JURY p. 11 (1852)
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Lysander.Spooner.Quote.2EAA


"The law itself is on trial quite as much as the cause which is to be decided."
-- Harlan F. Stone
12th Chief Justice U.S. Supreme Court
Source: 1941
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Harlan.Stone.Quote.CA4B


"The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact."
-- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.
(1841-1935) US Supreme Court Justice, also known as "The Great Dissenter"
Source: 1902
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Oliver.Wendell.Holmes.Quote.CA4A
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on September 24, 2010, 04:16:52 pm
http://americanfreepress.net/html/fija_090810.html
AFP Podcast interviews Ilo Jones, the Executive Director of the Fully Informed Jury Association, an organization committed to ensuring prospective jurors know their rights & responsibilities, based on historical precedent.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: Junker on December 15, 2010, 06:59:06 pm
Via my copy of American Juror
   (FIJA's newsletter):


http://theinternationallibertarian.blogspot.com/2010/10/jury-nullification-may-be-only.html

For "antiwar activists", insert any group under threat of unjust law.

Of course most all Americans come under that category.  ;-)
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on December 15, 2010, 09:28:23 pm
I have a jury duty summons for next month.

This could be FUN!

Remember to avoid even the mention of the term "Jury Nullification" as they will NOT seat you if they know that you have ...
1- Read the Constitution
2- Know the Bill of Rights
3- Know that jury nullification is legal, honorable and a duty of every juror if the Law be unconstitutional.

Wait until the actual jury vote to mention having 'read in a US Supreme Court decision' [Scroogle up Justice Brandeis] that juries are supposed to judge both the facts AND the law.
Then hang the jury IF the law is unconstitutional or is being 'misapplied'.

Best of luck.

I have written a couple of letters to the editor of our local fish wrapper [in an effort to educate the local populace] and now my name gets removed before the notices even go out.  :dontknow:

My brother is a defense lawyer and he has openly admitted that Justice and Truth are nowhere within the current legal system.
It is all about 'wins and losses' even for the judges.
[They get to promote themselves as "Hard on Crime" when the next election comes up by carefully choosing the cases they will hear, by directing the lawyers on how to present their cases and by directing the jury to ignore the unconstitutionality of the law itself.]

{sigh ...}

The founding fathers must be spinning like dervishes.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: iloilo on December 15, 2010, 10:00:33 pm
Ignore some of what Gooch said:
"Wait until the actual jury vote to mention having 'read in a US Supreme Court decision' [Scroogle up Justice Brandeis] that juries are supposed to judge both the facts AND the law.  Then hang the jury IF the law is unconstitutional or is being 'misapplied'."

If you mention during jury deliberations that you have read the Constitution or if you mention nullification, the jury foreman may report you to the judge; you could be replaced with an alternate; you could be charged with both jury tampering and felony perjury for taking the oath and then breaking it.  Probably, you would win eventually on both counts—on appeal, but only after government ring wraiths have put you through the wringer.  (sorry, could not resist  :laugh:)   Meanwhile, you might languish in a cell run by the government Orcs.

Either ask a question during jury selection: ask the judge since when jurors were jurors supposed to check their mind and conscience at the door?  Or ask when jurors lost the right to judge both he law and the facts?  ?  You will at least contaminate the entire jury pool. 
 or
Get on the jury and use any persuasion other than an appeal to law or nullification, or else just vote not guilty if it is a victimless crime, and don't give any reason for your verdict other than that you just can't convict in your heart of hearts.

As Gooch's brother said, justice and truth are nowhere to be found in the system: don't risk trying to persuade anyone else.  It would probably get you kicked off the jury, and maybe worse.

Now then, after you are through with jury duty, start handing out FIJA literature and talking to people.  And work freedom every other way you can, as well.
Peace,
ff
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: da gooch on December 15, 2010, 11:17:47 pm
Quote
Either ask a question during jury selection: ask the judge since when were jurors supposed to check their mind and conscience at the door?  Or ask when jurors lost the right to judge both the law and the facts?  ?  You will at least contaminate the entire jury pool. 

Of Course ... Feral Fae is entirely correct.
Mentioning any of this will get you thrown off of the jury. [and possibly prosecuted as she says.]
Then you will not have a chance to actually convict the Law of its unconstitutionality [all victimless 'crimes'] and or Free a wrongfully prosecuted individual.

I am one of those that rams his head against the walls of ignorance and damn the torpedoes.
I have more than once gone to the cells rather than surrender my convictions.
I'm told that it may have something to do with being born in the spring. [March 31st]   :ph34r:   

:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MeyerLemon on May 09, 2012, 12:07:25 am
This is really interesting. I'm an attorney in CA, and I practice only in civil court - usually commercial litigation/breach of contract. Rarely do we make it to a jury trial - and if we do, the question is one of breach of contract.

I don't really see anything on the FIJA website on civil trials, and I've love to read more. We rarely elect a jury trial, because...well...I'm in Los Angeles County. I've served on a jury here, I wouldn't want to subject my clients to that unless absolutely necessary. Horrible to say, I know, but...I've been in that jury room. It isn't pretty.

For what it's worth, mentioning FIJA wouldn't get you thrown off MY jury. I use my challenges for people that really seem biased against logic. Then again, I don't take cases where I don't think the client is both legally correct AND ethically correct!
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on May 09, 2012, 06:46:34 am
I don't really see anything on the FIJA website on civil trials, and I've love to read more.

I'm not aware of any significant difference in the actual jury, but I don't know a whole lot. :) The standard of evidence - "beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal cases compared to "preponderance of the evidence" in civil matters - is the only difference I know. I'll ask.

Quote
We rarely elect a jury trial, because...well...I'm in Los Angeles County. I've served on a jury here, I wouldn't want to subject my clients to that unless absolutely necessary. Horrible to say, I know, but...I've been in that jury room. It isn't pretty.

I was a prospective juror in San Bernardino county a few times. LA is most likely worse. I would love to have been on a jury, but I'm not a good enough actor to pass as a mindless idiot. :(  And besides, I refused to answer their personal questions... got me tossed out fast.

Quote
For what it's worth, mentioning FIJA wouldn't get you thrown off MY jury. I use my challenges for people that really seem biased against logic. Then again, I don't take cases where I don't think the client is both legally correct AND ethically correct!

Unfortunately, the other attorney also has challenges. They LIKE people who are biased against logic. I sure don't envy your job there. Got to be nasty sometimes dealing with all that slime...

Anyway, will post what I discover.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: sovereignbastard on March 31, 2015, 12:58:35 pm
        I was recently doing some research on jury's and it seems to me that their is quite a difference between a jury trial and a trial by jury. I, like most people, just assumed that they are one in the same, but with my understanding of the bowel creature known as government continues to grow, it seems clear to me that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on everywhere. In a trial by jury, the jury is in charge of deciding the guilt, innocence, and even legality of the law itself, hence jury nullification. The judge himself is only to be a facilitator or ref for the proceedings.
        In a jury trial, the judge tells the jury what they can and cant do. The judge tells them what evidence they can hear and what is admissible. The judge can direct the jury to ignore many facets of the law, and even threaten jurors with contempt for non-compliance. My question is... How is this not jury tampering ?

On the subject of courts, here is an interesting conversation. What is the real deal with the BAR association ? Where in the constitution does it talk about lawyers or rather to the point attorneys ? My understanding is that a lawyer is an advocate for you where an attorney who has passed the BAR, their true ability is to be able to transfer your "prorperty" from you across the BAR and to the judge "state." When a student has passed the bar, they are now allowed to pass the threshold and transfer your goodies to the state ? This also reminds me of the whole TONA issue. The titles of nobility amendment to the constitution that expressly prohibited royalty and lawyers and the like from holding office. My research has lead me to believe that TONA was passed and is a legal amendment to the constitution. The true and original 13th amendment.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on March 31, 2015, 01:16:30 pm
My research has led me to the understanding that it is all a hoax, a terrible fraud from the beginning. "justice," and all that attaches to government control over our lives and property is, more or less, at the whim of those in charge, at whatever level you encounter them.

Posted for educational purposes only, fair use:

Hologram of Liberty  http://javelinpress.com/hologram_of_liberty.html
The Constitution's Shocking Alliance with Big Government
$27.00
ABOUT HOLOGRAM OF LIBERTY

Civic Belief #1: The Congress was given few specific powers. All else was left to the States and to the people under the 10th Amendment. Ample checks and balances protect the Republic from federal tyranny.

Civic Belief #2: The Federal Government has become so powerful only because despotic officials have overstepped their strict, constitutional bounds.

If #1 is true, then how did #2 happen?

    "The Constitution has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it". Lysander Spooner, No Treason (1870)

Think about that. By either the Constitution's purposeful design or by its unintentional weakness, we suffer under a federal colossus which takes a third of our lives and regulates everything from alfalfa to xylophones. This is Freedom? So, why aren't Americans free? Perhaps we weren't really meant to be!

    hol o gram (hl' e gram) n. [< Gr. holos, whole + gramma, writing]
    2. a document falsely representing itself as an accurate metaphor

    lib er ty (lib'er tee) n. [< L. liber, free] 1. freedom from slavery

Hologram of Liberty The Constitution's Shocking Alliance With Big Government is a cold splash of water on our civic mythology. Hologram's main contention is that the 1787 Convention, its Constitution and Federal Government was the most brilliant and subtle coup d'etat in political history. While the majority of Americans then were Jeffersonian in nature, a few Hamiltonian Federalists eradicated our Swiss-style Confederation and replaced it with a latent leviathan. The Federal Government was given several escape keys to the putative handcuffing by the Constitution. Using the "necessary and proper" and "general welfare" clauses in conjunction with congressional powers under treaty, interstate commerce, and emergency, the "Founding Lawyers" of 1787 purposely designed a constitutional infrastructure guaranteed to facilitate a future federal colossus. While such a massive government was impossible to erect in the freedom-conscious 1780's, the "virus" of tyranny was cunningly hidden within the Constitution to foment the eventual federal behemoth we are burdened with today. The feds take in a third of economic activity and regulate everything from the price of corn to the size of chimneys and it's all constitutional!" Oh, it's only 'constitutional' because autocratic Supreme Court Justices say it is!," some would reply.

Yes, but the Framers allowed the Supreme Court, without any check or balance, to approve of federal encroachment on the States and on the people. There is no constitutional avenue for overturning a despotic Supreme Court ruling and it was designed that way. The feds are allowed to "monitor" themselves, like students grading their own tests. Had the Framers wanted to really check the Supreme Court, they'd have at least created an appellate court (activated by petition) staffed by justices from the States. Had the Framers wanted to really hamstring Congress and the President, they would have given the people a "no-confidence" device to remove traitorous officials in midterm. Had they wanted to, the Framers could have (as did the Swiss) easily confined the Federal Government but they didn't want to. In their opinion, a strong central government independent of real popular approval was best for America. The Framers left the federal fleas in control of their own flea powder, and that's why we have such an unchallengeable government today.

Most conservatives and libertarians believe that the Constitution and its Framers were Jeffersonian and laissez-faire. They were not, and they never claimed to be. This Jeffersonian gloss is echoic of two things: 1) What the Constitution was sold as to the people through The Federalist, and 2) How the Constitution, according to Jefferson, should have been interpreted under strict constructionism. Add the Red, White, and Blue, July 4th, the Founding Fathers and George Washington and you've got a civic religion with its unique parchment worship. There are but three ways to view anything, including the Constitution:

    The way you see it.
    The way you would like it to be.
    The way it really is.

Friends of freedom have gazed dreamily at the Constitution for two centuries, fusing #1 with #2 to create a false #3. We need to snap out of our parchment worship and coldly study the predicament of Liberty--before it's too late. Liberty-loving folks need to quickly understand that freedom is not well-served by the current Constitution. Neither is tyranny. It is Royce's firm opinion that the Constitution will be radically amended, if not abolished altogether, by "us" or "them" within 10 years. Royce proves that the States and the people were politically "checkmated" at ratification, and discusses his three peaceful solutions prior the imminent insurrection now brewing. The goal of Hologram of Liberty is to spark an active synthesis of Libertarians, Patriots, and Conservatives to prevent a 21st century Dark Age in America.

There hasn't been an innovative theory about the Constitution in 84 years, since Charles Beard's An Economic Interpretation. We are long overdue for a paradigm shift to political reality. It's time to complete the story with Hologram of Liberty, the Jeffersonian/anti-federalist epilogue. Our window of opportunity for reestablishing freedom is quickly running out and we simply don't have time for comforting old fantasies. Hologram of Liberty is the freshest research on the Constitution since 1913.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: sovereignbastard on March 31, 2015, 02:24:49 pm
That was wonderful, I will check this hologram of liberty ! Speaking of Mr Spooner, I have recently read his constitution of no authority number 6, and was so moved by it that i bought several more copies for a few folks I know who have been interested in a better understanding of the world in which they reside. I had a bit of a breakthrough the other night. I was thinking about what Lysander said about voting being an act of self defense. This is something that I agree with very much. I got to thinking it through a little more, and came to the conclusion that not only CAN it be an act of self defense, but in many ways it is nothing more than a criminal enterprise. I ask people from time to time if they thought is was ok to go rob a neighbor at gunpoint for their property ? The response was always no. Then I asked if it would be ok if they hired someone to do the robbery instead. The answer was still no. Then I would ask if it would be ok to elect someone, to hire someone, to rob someone of their property ? That question usually earns a big roll of the eyes followed with a, of course not, that's preposterous ! That's when I ask, how is that any different than the entire system that we have in place now ? That is usually met with less than flattering looks and scoffs. It is amazing how we can see the obvious "injustice" over on this side, but our indoctrination is so deep, that we fail to identify the exact same thing from "our" government. I say that voting is self defense and criminal, especially when it is forced upon you. I am all for a group of people getting together and consenting to some type of voting doo-hickey, but I refuse to accept that a few people that vote over here or over there, somehow contracts me into their shennanigans. 
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: MamaLiberty on March 31, 2015, 03:21:57 pm
Yes indeed. That blind spot is due to the fact that people have been indoctrinated for eons to believe that "government" and/or "the will of the people" - "majority rules" because there is some kind of legitimate "authority" to do that. The same reason people become slaves to religious and cult leaders of all kinds... they actually think leadership or the appearance of it conveys some sort of obligation on them even when they don't agree to it, or suffer from it. People obviously have the innate authority to choose any sort of life or leaders they wish, but few will accept the idea that they can't legitimately choose for anyone else.
Title: Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
Post by: sovereignbastard on March 31, 2015, 03:39:41 pm
Yes indeed. That blind spot is due to the fact that people have been indoctrinated for eons to believe that "government" and/or "the will of the people" - "majority rules" because there is some kind of legitimate "authority" to do that.

A snippet from the errant sovereign's handbook by Augustus Blackstone
Chapter 4, page 25

"We are also vested with the power to choose to become part of and participate in majority rule. The catch is we first have to give up the immunity, the protective barrier. You cannot rationally expect to be a part of the majority rule and still retain all the individual protections against a majority rule. That just doesn't work. In the course of such a transition from individual sovereign elector to qualified majority rule elector, there are necessarily two principal items of sovereignty which must transfer. Neither, being intangabiles, can be destroyed. The first is the power to choose at will and the second is immunity."