The Mental Militia Forums

Partner Sites => Oath-Keepers => Topic started by: Moonbeam on October 03, 2013, 09:11:15 am

Title: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Moonbeam on October 03, 2013, 09:11:15 am
Any OA members care to weigh in on this?

http://www.dailypaul.com/300989/oath-keepers-kick-it-up-a-notch-going-operational-by-forming-special-civilization-preservation-teams

Oath Keepers.org
Oct. 1, 2013

Oath Keepers is instructing its 30,000 members nation-wide to form up special teams and sub-teams in each Oath Keepers chapter, at the town and county level, modeled loosely on the Special Forces “A Team” (Operational Detachment A ) model, and for a similar purpose: to be both a potential operational unit for community security and support during crisis, but also, as mission #1, to serve as training and leadership cadre, to assist in organizing neighborhood watches, organizing veterans halls to provide community civil defense, forming County Sheriff Posses, strengthening existing CERT, volunteer fire, search-and-rescue, reserve deputy systems, etc., and eventually to assist in forming and training town and county militias (established by official act of town and county elected representatives). We want our chapters to organize themselves as a working model that we can then take to other veterans organizations, such as the VFW, American Legion, Marine Corps League, etc. in each town and help them establish such teams within their already existing veterans halls. And likewise, to serve as a model and training cadre to help churches, neighborhood watches, and any other civic organization organize.

We are basing this on the Special Forces model, which has a twelve man “A team” of specially trained soldiers who are inserted into a community to train and lead that community in resistance to oppressive regimes (hence their motto: “De Oppresso Liber). . SF’s primary mission is to teach, organize, and lead, rather than to directly fight. They can fight, of course, but they are most dangerous as a force-multiplier by helping an entire community to fight. We will do the same – be force multipliers to help prepare communities so they can preserve civilization by providing their own security, disaster relief, infrastructure preservation, emergency communications, strategic food reserve, and medical care.</snip>
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: slidemansailor on October 04, 2013, 10:44:34 pm
I am particularly happy with this decision.  Geeze, we (the Oath Keepers) could hardly be on more lists anyway... time to take off the gloves and seriously address the threats to our lives, liberty that are imminent.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: freewoman on October 06, 2013, 08:09:21 am
Once upon a time, Homeland Security encouraged citizens to prepare themselves for various "emergency" situations.  Then they proceed to stockpile bullets.  So I think OK would be able to say, "Nothing to see here--just following instructions."  This is an outgrowth of other programs that have been started by OK--just ramping it up several notches. 

I work for a social services organization which is teaming up with Catholic Charities to train social workers and counselors to go into disaster areas to provide help for people in need.  They're working with FEMA on this.  All well and good--charities should be doing this anyway.  (I was raised in a denomination which sent disaster aid teams all over the world, at the volunteers' expense, long before FEMA became the bureaucratic hot mess it is today, so I've seen this happen up close and personal.)  But as I was sending information out on this, I thought, "We should be doing this locally, too."  So I'm glad to see OK moving forward with this idea.  Unfortunately we don't have a chapter in my area--yet, anyway!
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: da gooch on October 06, 2013, 05:55:56 pm
I agree that this is a good idea and like you freewoman live in a community that doesn't have an organized OK Chapter. [Town is too small and too rural.]
I would love to see the Legion and the VFW get onto this bandwagon sooner rather than later.
meanwhile ...

stay safe
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: sharp_shepherd on October 22, 2013, 07:27:44 am
I'm not saying I am an Oath Keeper but if I was then I'd say that many of "them" had already started recruiting and training.  Don't let the number of 30,000 fool you as to how strong "they" are.  Actual number are estimated to be closer to a million members.  Most members would rather fly under the radar while some live in the open in order to maintain a presence for visibility and recruiting.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Rarick on October 23, 2013, 08:38:38 am
The county Sheriff and his deputies.........with a citizen's posse of volunteers trained up to a standard as a well organized militia........ Totally Constitutional and definitely of no threat to TPTB.   

Now if there are some high speed low drag former spec ops guys forming up direct action teams, that is another story.   I wonder what the triggering events would be?  Something like an obviously rigged election?  A declaration of martial law on flimsy premises?  The beginings of Krystallnacht activity?
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: da gooch on October 27, 2013, 01:56:28 pm
The county Sheriff and his deputies.........with a citizen's posse of volunteers trained up to a standard as a well organized militia........ Totally Constitutional and definitely of no threat to TPTB.   
Yep all true. Not that TPTB really cares about such trivialities any more.
Quote
Now if there are some high speed low drag former spec ops guys forming up direct action teams, that is another story.   I wonder what the triggering events would be?  Something like an obviously rigged election?  A declaration of martial law on flimsy premises?  The beginings of Krystallnacht activity?

Obviously rigged election?
Name one that hasn't been rigged since Oh say about 1870 or so ... maybe even farther back than that. :dontknow:

A declaration of martial law on flimsy premises?
TPTB have been doing this on a local basis for generations. Got to get the sheep(le) used to the presence of wolves in their midst don't you know? It is so commonplace nowadays that few if any would even remark on it unless it was a general declaration over the entire country.
That would wake up even the VFW and the American Legion is my guess. Some to go help TPTB is my guess.

The beginings of Krystallnacht activity?
This is another that would cause a major reaction so I doubt that we will see it until the sheep(le) are generally [a majority + the MSM] calling for those "danged ENTER FAVORITE BOOGEYMAN HERE " to be "dealt with once and for all".
Which is exactly how the National Socialist Party did deal with those nasty ENTER FAVORITE BOOGEYMAN HERE back in Germany in 1937 & 8.

Watch for the formation of "The Black Shirts" and other such Patriotic Associations for your early warning signs.

Say ... What are those dangerous veterans up to these days?   :rolleyes:

edit to correct spelling you - your I was close :dontknow:
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on November 24, 2013, 06:33:52 pm
I agree that this is a good idea and like you freewoman live in a community that doesn't have an organized OK Chapter. [Town is too small and too rural.]
I would love to see the Legion and the VFW get onto this bandwagon sooner rather than later.
meanwhile ...

stay safe

Gooch,  I don't think that is going to happen with the VFW as much as it is a good idea.  Their primary role is to lobby for veteran's benefits, secondarily they are a service organization.  The VFW oath, which is secret, is to the constitution, and there is no apparent irony when it is administered.

I don't think it could be this or even something like this.

The Stahlhelm, Bund der Frontsoldaten ("Steel Helmet, League of Frontline Soldiers", also known in short form as Der Stahlhelm) was one of the many paramilitary organizations that arose after the German defeat of World War I. It was part of the "Black Reichswehr" and in the late days of the Weimar Republic operated as the armed branch of the national conservative German National People's Party (DNVP), placed at party gatherings in the position of armed security guards (Saalschutz).
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Rarick on November 26, 2013, 05:17:26 am
The county Sheriff and his deputies.........with a citizen's posse of volunteers trained up to a standard as a well organized militia........ Totally Constitutional and definitely of no threat to TPTB.   
Yep all true. Not that TPTB really cares about such trivialities any more.
Quote
Now if there are some high speed low drag former spec ops guys forming up direct action teams, that is another story.   I wonder what the triggering events would be?  Something like an obviously rigged election?  A declaration of martial law on flimsy premises?  The beginings of Krystallnacht activity?

Obviously rigged election?
Name one that hasn't been rigged since Oh say about 1870 or so ... maybe even farther back than that. :dontknow:

A declaration of martial law on flimsy premises?
TPTB have been doing this on a local basis for generations. Got to get the sheep(le) used to the presence of wolves in their midst don't you know? It is so commonplace nowadays that few if any would even remark on it unless it was a general declaration over the entire country.
That would wake up even the VFW and the American Legion is my guess. Some to go help TPTB is my guess.

The beginings of Krystallnacht activity?
This is another that would cause a major reaction so I doubt that we will see it until the sheep(le) are generally [a majority + the MSM] calling for those "danged ENTER FAVORITE BOOGEYMAN HERE " to be "dealt with once and for all".
Which is exactly how the National Socialist Party did deal with those nasty ENTER FAVORITE BOOGEYMAN HERE back in Germany in 1937 & 8.

Watch for the formation of "The Black Shirts" and other such Patriotic Associations for your early warning signs.

Say ... What are those dangerous veterans up to these days?   :rolleyes:

edit to correct spelling you - your I was close :dontknow:

Yeah, I have already said that most of our problems go back to the 1960's "Great Society" program of the Johnsonian Democrats, with several camel nose moments (1937/4, New Deal, 1913) going back to the civil war.......

I am just putting some food for thought out there for those newb ghosts..........
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bear on November 26, 2013, 06:46:37 pm
How does someone outside of the Oath Keepers find out if there is an
active chapter in their area, and if so, contact them to see what kind
of support they might need down the road?

Bear
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Klapton Isgod on November 27, 2013, 06:30:25 am
How does someone outside of the Oath Keepers find out if there is an
active chapter in their area, and if so, contact them to see what kind
of support they might need down the road?

Bear

There is a "Contact Us" page / link on the main OathKeepers.org webpage.  There should also be an option to select your state.  That will send an email to the state point of contact, who should get back to you and help you get in contact with someone locally.  Membership is not required to be involved with the new CPTs.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: slidemansailor on November 27, 2013, 10:04:23 pm
Okay. I sent a message to my state contact via the Oath Keeper page.  I'll let you know if/how it works.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: da gooch on February 19, 2016, 04:28:12 pm
Hey SMS,

Were you able to contact an OK group?
It's been 2 1/2 years since your post and I know that you have moved (?)* and am just reconnecting to see if your attempt was positive or negative.

stay safe,

g

* my time frame MAY be out of adjustment ...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: slidemansailor on February 20, 2016, 09:26:10 am
I am somewhat connected, but think there is simply no activity in my neck of the woods.  Montana is home to a strong contingent of Oath Keepers, to say the least. However it is a big place and their organization has not reached the southwest yet.  If I wanna rub elbows, I gotta drive a few hours each way.

They did have a meeting half-way here once. I drove to that one and was glad I did, but no further organization came my way.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: da gooch on February 21, 2016, 07:32:50 pm
I am somewhat connected, but think there is simply no activity in my neck of the woods.  Montana is home to a strong contingent of Oath Keepers, to say the least. However it is a big place and their organization has not reached the southwest yet.  If I wanna rub elbows, I gotta drive a few hours each way.

They did have a meeting half-way here once. I drove to that one and was glad I did, but no further organization came my way.

It is much the same in my ao I'm afraid.
To my knowledge I am the only actual OKer in my county. I have met several vets, cops and county deputies (and a veteran+news paper reporter) that Claim to be keeping their oath. It's hard to tell without some kind of "event" that causes the display of committment to become overt. sigh ...
I am going to attempt to "sound out" my neighbors as to a "neighborhood watch" sort of network.

(crosses fingers)
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 21, 2016, 08:31:30 pm
Aren't the oath keepers made up mostly of "cops' and military ? It seems like they are already in a group called the order followers. This special group of individuals seem to be paid by money forcefully extorted from the chattel debt slaves. It seems that the job of the order follower is to initiate violence or at a minimum, initiate threats of violence, on behalf of the corporation known as the UNITED STATES. Order followers who are becoming Oath Keepers is a double oxymoron of the most indoctrinated variety. The oath they all took was to the NWO, the international banksters, and a religion known as government.(an oath that denies them their own "rights" that they claim to be fighting or policing for?) But hey, MotherCirce assumes that their hearts are in all the right places as they shake down old and young along the highway, and bomb the crap out of individuals halfway around the world that never initiated violence against anyone remotely near here. All Heil the O.A.T.H. ORDERS AGAINST THE HUMANS !!!!
Continue to form your special teams O.A.T.H. Keepers ! Continue to support your enslavement while helping to physically enslave your neighbors and individuals you have never seen before on behalf of the corporation.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: da gooch on February 21, 2016, 09:10:01 pm
Aren't the oath keepers made up mostly of "cops' and military ? It seems like they are already in a group called the order followers. This special group of individuals seem to be paid by money forcefully extorted from the chattel debt slaves. It seems that the job of the order follower is to initiate violence or at a minimum, initiate threats of violence, on behalf of the corporation known as the UNITED STATES. Order followers who are becoming Oath Keepers is a double oxymoron of the most indoctrinated variety. The oath they all took was to the NWO, the international banksters, and a religion known as government.(an oath that denies them their own "rights" that they claim to be fighting or policing for?) But hey, MotherCirce assumes that their hearts are in all the right places as they shake down old and young along the highway, and bomb the crap out of individuals halfway around the world that never initiated violence against anyone remotely near here. All Heil the O.A.T.H. ORDERS AGAINST THE HUMANS !!!!
Continue to form your special teams O.A.T.H. Keepers ! Continue to support your enslavement while helping to physically enslave your neighbors and individuals you have never seen before on behalf of the corporation.

Whew the depth of the misunderstanding you seem to have is truly amusing.

https://oathkeepers.org/

Go do some research unless you enjoy being as uneducated on this subject as you are portraying with this post.
Allow me to suggest the Orders We Will Not Obey listing and the What We Are Not Listing as well.
Both are on the OK Board front page HERE (https://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?board=60.0) at TMM I do believe.
The What We Are Not List is here for sure as I am the one who wrote it and placed it here.

Oh by the way it's Oath not O.A.T.H.
Notice the lack of periods in the word Oath?
I don't know where you got them from or what you intimate with their use but we don't use them.


Thanks for your interest in Oath Keepers.
Welcome to the OK Boards here at our birthplace The Mental Militia.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bill St. Clair on February 22, 2016, 06:37:21 am
Well, mothercirce does have a point. Those who are under the employ of organizations funded by extortion (taxation), are criminals (receipt of stolen goods) the day they cash their first paycheck. It's nice that some of them have at least promised to keep their oath of office, something we should be able to enforce on the whole lot, hanging or at least imprisoning any oath taker who violates the tiniest little bit of the constitution he swore to uphold and defend. But that doesn't forgive being paid in stolen money.

[edited to remove an adjective]
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bill St. Clair on February 22, 2016, 08:29:29 am
But an oath taker's salary is not initially criminal. There is no criminal intent, not even the knowledge that the money was obtained by criminal means. And most people take the oath at a young age, while the government school brainwashing is still fresh. So I can't fault them until they learn that their salary is tainted money, at which time continuing to take it DOES become criminal. But finding sufficiently-compensated work can difficult by that time, since most now have families and mortgages and other commitments. Training was strenuous, making especially those in the military into true professionals, so giving it up harms self worth. In an acronym: FUBAR!
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: MamaLiberty on February 22, 2016, 08:53:44 am
Yes, intent is critical. Most, if not all of these young men and women have been indoctrinated all of their lives to believe that the "state" has full authority to collect the tax money with which they are paid. They do not see it as accepting stolen goods. Their intent is not then criminal. My only problem with the oathkeepers (and so many more) is their continued belief in the "authority" of the state, the continued acceptance of the tax as legitimate, and therefore no questions about accepting it in payment for their work.

Government, supposedly by consent of the governed... except that nobody is allowed to refuse "consent."
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 22, 2016, 09:20:31 am
But an oath taker's salary is not initially criminal. There is no criminal intent, not even the knowledge that the money was obtained by criminal means. And most people take the oath at a young age, while the government school brainwashing is still fresh. So I can't fault them until they learn that their salary is tainted money, at which time continuing to take it DOES become criminal. But finding sufficiently-compensated work can difficult by that time, since most now have families and mortgages and other commitments. Training was strenuous, making especially those in the military into true professionals, so giving it up harms self worth. In an acronym: FUBAR!

Mother circe disagrees. No criminal intent ?? The salary is criminal on day one, but this is not even the biggest issue. They know that on day one, they will spend most of their time robbing, assaulting, kidnapping and killing. Feel free to call it community care taking, law enforcement, or any other nonsense, but the majority of what is happening is criminal, evil, immoral initiations of violence and malice against mostly non violent individuals. Mother Circe understands that most are indoctrinated at a young age, and the whole self harm issue. Mother Circe does not bend on the issue though. These order followers have no issue with harming the rest of us to keep there little bubbles of lies and evil from popping into reality. Many on here have no issue calling things what they are, but when it comes to the honorable men and women of the police and military, really finding truth on the issue becomes something that's just easier to side step. Mothercirce says that the BIGGEST threat to your life is the government, but more specifically the men and women that follow the orders of the government. The cops and military. Mother Circe is not concerned about the local meth head, or stick up kid. Mother Circe is allowed, Mostly, to defend against such petty criminals. When it comes to the kidnapping, extortion, assault and murder doled out by the cops and military, you are the criminal in the eyes of the state and order followers by simply acting in self defense against an initiator of violence. This issue could not be more clear cut and simple, yet even in the eyes of the "enlightened", the excuses will always continue to flow. Hurting your neighbors and community on a daily basis IS A TOUGH JOB ! Just about everything we learned in this country is the opposite of the truth. When it comes to police and military being honorable and our protectors, this is no exception to that.

Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Klapton Isgod on February 22, 2016, 09:54:36 am
Mother circe disagrees. No criminal intent ?? The salary is criminal on day one, but this is not even the biggest issue. They know that on day one, they will spend most of their time robbing, assaulting, kidnapping and killing.

I played the Tuba for the Army.  There was always some remote possibility that I might have to kill someone, so I was trained how to do so.  But I spent most of my time rehearsing and performing music for old people.

.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bill St. Clair on February 22, 2016, 10:06:16 am
mothercirce is more on point this time. I CAN excuse oath takers from not realizing that their salary is stolen goods. But it's very hard to excuse them for initiating force against people who have harmed nobody, but simply violated some statute that has no proper right to exist. Again, government school brain-washing in action, but when they actively cause REAL harm, when THEY are personally the aggressors, I cannot excuse. Only following orders still doesn't cut it.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 22, 2016, 11:50:16 am
Mother circe disagrees. No criminal intent ?? The salary is criminal on day one, but this is not even the biggest issue. They know that on day one, they will spend most of their time robbing, assaulting, kidnapping and killing.

I played the Tuba for the Army.  There was always some remote possibility that I might have to kill someone, so I was trained how to do so.  But I spent most of my time rehearsing and performing music for old people.

.

MotherCirce is fond of all musical musings. It is wonderful to learn and spread such an ability in circes opinion. Just an interesting thought, (maybe?) So lets say that the Tuba Player spends their military days not initiating violence against anyone and they are just playing the tuba. Millions of families are being extorted under threat of force to pay for the tuba time in the military, being non aggressive. This is not an optimal situation for those millions of individuals. Lets just take it one step further. Lets say there is a family out there who understands that the taxes are really extortion under the color of law, and rightfully refuse to pay tribute. Sooner or later individuals will come with guns to your families home, and if you resist this obvious initiation of violent force, you will be murdered. Again, the tuba player is not actively hurting anyone by playing the tuba, but Mother Circe ask, does that not make the tuba player involved to a degree in the murder ? Mother Circe certainly does not put the tuba player on the level as the actual men and women that murder the family or at the very least assault and kidnap the family, but to ignore the part played by the tuba player is indoctrination in of itself. The Tuba player is creating a justification to rob and assault. At the end of the day the tuba player is receiving the funds of those deeds. One justifies the other and vice versa. Mother Circe thinks it is wonderful that the tuba was played instead of killing on part of the tuba player. Hurting and threatening millions of families to do so is not acceptable though.

Does it make it more sympathetic to the cause of the tuba player that the individual played for "old people?"

Tuba player says " But hey, I understand all this extortion and violence business on behalf of payment for my tuba playing, but come on, I was tootin my horn for all the old folks."

Mother Circe simply nods in admiration, jealous that she has not the skill to toot her own horn in front of old people.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Silver on February 22, 2016, 12:12:19 pm
I've said before (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=32807.msg408669#msg408669) that too many Oath Keeper's simply reek of hypocrisy.  Present company excepted, Gooch!

While I can forgive a young, brainwashed person from not understanding the moral implications of their career choices, and not knowing where their money comes from, once they spend any time in one of the many sandboxes the slack gets reeled back in.  It is simply impossible to be a member of an occupation army for any length of time and not see the corruption and violence inherent in the job.

But the failings are much greater than that.  The Oath Keepers have been extremely selective in reminding their members of their oaths.

OK Board member Chief Celia S. Hyde was a high officer in the MA state police.  She swore a mighty oath not to disarm citizens,  then went out herself or oversaw officers who went out and enforced a MA law that will put a citizen in jail for 10 long years if they don't lock their firearm when stored at home, rendering it useless.  Is she not open to charges of blatant hypocrisy?  How does she reconcile her oath to honor the right to bear arms with enforcement of a law that demands the each and every citizen get advance approval from the police not only to carry a weapon, but simply to own one at all, even if it never leaves the home?  A law the enforces registration of all firearms and records of all ammunition purchases?  Does the fact that she has retired change her responsibility in this area?  Will she make a public statement to the effect that no OK who is a MA police officer should enforce this draconian, unconstitutional, victim-disarming law?

Think about the lock-down of the city of Boston after the Marathon bombing.  Warrantless house to house searches.  Innocent people forced from their homes at gunpoint by heavily armed storm troopers. Where where the Oath Keepers?  Were there none at all in the multiple police forces, hundreds if not thousands of officers, involved in that grotesque orgy of violating constitutional and human rights?  I rather suspect there were Oath Keepers in that number, and it appears that they were silent.

Where where these folks 2001-2008?  Where where they when we invaded a foreign country and murdered half a million people?  Where where they when W was wiretapping literally everyone?  I could ask these questions and many more but I know I won't get an answer.  It was OK when the party that favors war and violence was in charge, but now that the party that prefers welfare and violence is in power, the enforcers are antsy. 

Some argue that we should embrace those who are beginning to realize what is going on.  I'll embrace any one of them - after they quit their job and find a way to make a living that doesn't involve taking taxpayer loot or killing people as SOP.

From their website:

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
unless it's TSA shakedowns at airports and bus stations, random searches at subway stations, drug dogs and property confiscation at checkpoints or traffic stops, or warrantless wiretaps of the entire nation.

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as "unlawful enemy combatants" or to subject them to military tribunal.
Ever hear of Jose Padilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner))?  American citizen.  Detained as unlawful enemy combatant.  Tortured into deep psychosis by the US Navy.  Too late for oathkeepers.

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a "state of emergency" on a state.
  Unless that state has people who look different and speak a different language.  Then we'll come in like gangbusters, literally shooting everything that moves.

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
Unless the state is named Iraq, or Afganistan, or Serbia, or Iran, or Syria, or Libya, or Yemen, or....

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
Unless that property is money to pay for Oathkeepers salaries, health plans, retirement benefits, and high-tech weapons.  Then it's OK.

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.
  Except when it's W, the G20, or any other VIP, and the orders are to force protestors into pens called "free speech zones."  Or if the free speech happens to be a blog highlighting the criminal activities of the enforcers.  Then anything goes.

Give me a break.  These people picked jobs where they can beat and kill others.  They are good at what they do.  They will keep doing it. When push comes to shove, they will do what enforcers have always done - beat and kill for whomever is paying them.

Quote
Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness.
Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/mccarthy5.html)

To the extent that the Oathkeepers are an association of currently serving military, police, and firefighters then their ranks are filled with soldiers occupying foreign nations or militarized enforcers occupying American cities and towns.  Each and every one does their job meticulously.  Their true allegiance is to their comrades, not to the constitution, which one commander that the OK's happily obeyed correctly characterized a "just a goddamned peace of paper."

To expect people who must twist their moral compass off its hinges in order to make their daily bread to suddenly develop a functioning conscience when there is blood in the streets is folly.  When the Catholics under Father McCarthy's care were ordered to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children, including entire convents of Catholic nuns, neither they nor their chaplain objected.  Only after he had walked through the rubble and confronted the results of his own actions did he realize his errors.

It was the same after the Boston Marathon bombing. There were no reports of cops refusing to roust citizens from their homes in Boston.

Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.  Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.

To the extent that Oath Keepers really does raise awareness among its members, success can be measured by how many resign their commissions and seek honest employment.

My criticisms of the Oath Keepers are not about the concept, but about the Oath itself and how it is described and explained by the Oath Keepers.  A group of people who swear oaths that they immediately and repeatedly violate already infests Mordor on the Potomac.  We don't need more recruits to that particular army.


Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 22, 2016, 12:30:36 pm


To the extent that Oath Keepers really does raise awareness among its members, success can be measured by how many resign their commissions and seek honest employment.



HUZZAH !
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Klapton Isgod on February 22, 2016, 12:59:21 pm
Mother Circe simply nods in admiration, jealous that she has not the skill to toot her own horn in front of old people.

The US Army is the largest employer of professional musicians in the world.  It is a welfare program for professional musicians where they get 30 days paid vacation, college money, "free" medical for their entire family, etc.

My awakening didn't happen until I was almost eligible for retirement.

I'm not going to bother answering your entire post, because I was not making any attempt to justify the existence of Army bands any more than I wish to justify the existence of the government that employs them.

My point was simply this:  you characterized everyone who joins the military as the "get some!" guy from Apocalypse Now.  That's not what reality is like.

.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bill St. Clair on February 22, 2016, 01:23:57 pm
I've said before (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=32807.msg408669#msg408669) that too many Oath Keeper's simply reek of hypocrisy.  Present company excepted, Gooch!

...

 :notworthy:
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: da gooch on February 22, 2016, 03:02:47 pm
I've said before (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=32807.msg408669#msg408669) that too many Oath Keeper's simply reek of hypocrisy.  Present company excepted, Gooch!
Thanks ... I think.
Quote
While I can forgive a young, brainwashed person from not understanding the moral implications of their career choices, and not knowing where their money comes from, once they spend any time in one of the many sandboxes the slack gets reeled back in.  It is simply impossible to be a member of an occupation army for any length of time and not see the corruption and violence inherent in the job.

But the failings are much greater than that.  The Oath Keepers have been extremely selective in reminding their members of their oaths.

OK Board member Chief Celia S. Hyde was a high officer in the MA state police.  She swore a mighty oath not to disarm citizens,  then went out herself or oversaw officers who went out and enforced a MA law that will put a citizen in jail for 10 long years if they don't lock their firearm when stored at home, rendering it useless.  Is she not open to charges of blatant hypocrisy?  How does she reconcile her oath to honor the right to bear arms with enforcement of a law that demands the each and every citizen get advance approval from the police not only to carry a weapon, but simply to own one at all, even if it never leaves the home?  A law the enforces registration of all firearms and records of all ammunition purchases?  Does the fact that she has retired change her responsibility in this area?  Will she make a public statement to the effect that no OK who is a MA police officer should enforce this draconian, unconstitutional, victim-disarming law?

Think about the lock-down of the city of Boston after the Marathon bombing.  Warrantless house to house searches.  Innocent people forced from their homes at gunpoint by heavily armed storm troopers. Where where the Oath Keepers?  Were there none at all in the multiple police forces, hundreds if not thousands of officers, involved in that grotesque orgy of violating constitutional and human rights?  I rather suspect there were Oath Keepers in that number, and it appears that they were silent.
Are you aware that she and two other (both also cops) National Board of Directors members were removed from the Board and "drummed out" of the organization for pretty much the things you describe? And within a year of the formation of the organization ... if memory serves.
Quote

Where where these folks 2001-2008? 
When did Oath Keepers come in to being ? ( right here at TMM btw )

Have you spent any time or made any exertion in researching the organization beyond the search for examples of "faults" with which to crucify the organization? - - - 2009 February actually but 2009 March Officially in case you wondered.
Quote
Where where they when we invaded a foreign country and murdered half a million people?  Where where they when W was wiretapping literally everyone?  I could ask these questions and many more but I know I won't get an answer.  It was OK when the party that favors war and violence was in charge, but now that the party that prefers welfare and violence is in power, the enforcers are antsy. 
Here the assumption is that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper. Nope.
Quote

Some argue that we should embrace those who are beginning to realize what is going on.  I'll embrace any one of them - after they quit their job and find a way to make a living that doesn't involve taking taxpayer loot or killing people as SOP.
So in your universe there is no hope of redemption of a wayward person who was duped into serving to follow a "family tradition" or patriotic speeches by family, peers and friends? That's sad.
Quote

From their website:

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
unless it's TSA shakedowns at airports and bus stations, random searches at subway stations, drug dogs and property confiscation at checkpoints or traffic stops, or warrantless wiretaps of the entire nation.
In the act of committing those acts the oath TAKER violates his/her oath and therefore Cannot Be an Oath Keeper.  ALL WHO TAKE THE OATH ARE NOT OATH KEEPERS. Any more than all religions are evil, all men are domineering a-holes or all women are greedy beetches. "Common Sense is altogether too uncommon." B. Franklin
Quote

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as "unlawful enemy combatants" or to subject them to military tribunal.
Ever hear of Jose Padilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner))?  American citizen.  Detained as unlawful enemy combatant.  Tortured into deep psychosis by the US Navy.  Too late for oathkeepers.
See note above about who is or is not an Oath Keeper.
Quote

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a "state of emergency" on a state.
  Unless that state has people who look different and speak a different language.  Then we'll come in like gangbusters, literally shooting everything that moves.
This question(?) and the next few make the assumption that the Oath Keepers was created to educate the entire planet. HARDLY.
OK was formed to attempt to educate those AMERICAN  "young, brainwashed persons" into their responsibility to obey the Oath, the UCMJ and to deeply evaluate their actions concerning the Rights of others especially following the Bill of Rights. We hoped, at the time, to be able to educate enough of the currently serving military and some few of the cops that the outrageous violations of rights, especially the physical violence, would decline or stop altogether. We were only partially successful and yet the "attempt" continues unabated.
Quote
Quote
We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
Unless the state is named Iraq, or Afganistan, or Serbia, or Iran, or Syria, or Libya, or Yemen, or....

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
Unless that property is money to pay for Oathkeepers salaries, health plans, retirement benefits, and high-tech weapons.  Then it's OK.
This question makes the assumption that anyone who enters the military or police force can instantly change the things that are and have been policy for generations by simply reaching out and throwing some kind of switch. See Franklin quote above.
Quote

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.
  Except when it's W, the G20, or any other VIP, and the orders are to force protestors into pens called "free speech zones."  Or if the free speech happens to be a blog highlighting the criminal activities of the enforcers.  Then anything goes.
See response above.
Quote

Give me a break.  These people picked jobs where they can beat and kill others.  They are good at what they do.  They will keep doing it. When push comes to shove, they will do what enforcers have always done - beat and kill for whomever is paying them.
This is one of the main reasons that OK has a much smaller number of LEOs than of vets and currently serving military. BUT that bit of knowledge would cost a person a little actual research of the subject which doesn't seem to be the pattern that is shining out here.
Quote

Quote
Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness.
Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/mccarthy5.html)

To the extent that the Oathkeepers are an association of currently serving military, police, and firefighters then their ranks are filled with soldiers occupying foreign nations or militarized enforcers occupying American cities and towns.
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote
  Each and every one does their job meticulously.  Their true allegiance is to their comrades, not to the constitution, which one commander that the OK's happily obeyed correctly characterized a "just a goddamned peace of paper."
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote

To expect people who must twist their moral compass off its hinges in order to make their daily bread to suddenly develop a functioning conscience when there is blood in the streets is folly.  When the Catholics under Father McCarthy's care were ordered to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children, including entire convents of Catholic nuns, neither they nor their chaplain objected.  Only after he had walked through the rubble and confronted the results of his own actions did he realize his errors.
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote

It was the same after the Boston Marathon bombing. There were no reports of cops refusing to roust citizens from their homes in Boston.

Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote
Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.
Not a few of which are here at TMM and among them the few who started OK.
Quote

To the extent that Oath Keepers really does raise awareness among its members, success can be measured by how many resign their commissions and seek honest employment.

My criticisms of the Oath Keepers are not about the concept, but about the Oath itself and how it is described and explained by the Oath Keepers.  A group of people who swear oaths that they immediately and repeatedly violate already infests Mordor on the Potomac.  We don't need more recruits to that particular army.


Peace,

Silver

It is amazing to me that otherwise intelligent people will castigate an entire group to exercize their emotions over an issue that they have not researched beyond the bits and pieces chosen to frame the image as they Feel it is rather than find out what it is actually.

Without having any access to the minds of the thousands currently serving, without being inside the military and police forces, how would You begin to educate those people who obviously need reeducation on freedom and personal Rights?

By all means PLEASE start your own effort to stop the madness.

And please stop denigrating those who are trying to stop the madness in the only way that we thought at the time will actually work without starting the American Revolution II.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: DiabloLoco on February 22, 2016, 03:39:53 pm
 :lurk:

I can see and agree with many points on both sides of this debate.......

For now, I will sit on my fence and......

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on February 23, 2016, 01:01:07 am
I've said before (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=32807.msg408669#msg408669) that too many Oath Keeper's simply reek of hypocrisy.  Present company excepted, Gooch!
Thanks ... I think.
Quote
While I can forgive a young, brainwashed person from not understanding the moral implications of their career choices, and not knowing where their money comes from, once they spend any time in one of the many sandboxes the slack gets reeled back in.  It is simply impossible to be a member of an occupation army for any length of time and not see the corruption and violence inherent in the job.

But the failings are much greater than that.  The Oath Keepers have been extremely selective in reminding their members of their oaths.

OK Board member Chief Celia S. Hyde was a high officer in the MA state police.  She swore a mighty oath not to disarm citizens,  then went out herself or oversaw officers who went out and enforced a MA law that will put a citizen in jail for 10 long years if they don't lock their firearm when stored at home, rendering it useless.  Is she not open to charges of blatant hypocrisy?  How does she reconcile her oath to honor the right to bear arms with enforcement of a law that demands the each and every citizen get advance approval from the police not only to carry a weapon, but simply to own one at all, even if it never leaves the home?  A law the enforces registration of all firearms and records of all ammunition purchases?  Does the fact that she has retired change her responsibility in this area?  Will she make a public statement to the effect that no OK who is a MA police officer should enforce this draconian, unconstitutional, victim-disarming law?

Think about the lock-down of the city of Boston after the Marathon bombing.  Warrantless house to house searches.  Innocent people forced from their homes at gunpoint by heavily armed storm troopers. Where where the Oath Keepers?  Were there none at all in the multiple police forces, hundreds if not thousands of officers, involved in that grotesque orgy of violating constitutional and human rights?  I rather suspect there were Oath Keepers in that number, and it appears that they were silent.
Are you aware that she and two other (both also cops) National Board of Directors members were removed from the Board and "drummed out" of the organization for pretty much the things you describe? And within a year of the formation of the organization ... if memory serves.
Quote

Where where these folks 2001-2008? 
When did Oath Keepers come in to being ? ( right here at TMM btw )

Have you spent any time or made any exertion in researching the organization beyond the search for examples of "faults" with which to crucify the organization? - - - 2009 February actually but 2009 March Officially in case you wondered.
Quote
Where where they when we invaded a foreign country and murdered half a million people?  Where where they when W was wiretapping literally everyone?  I could ask these questions and many more but I know I won't get an answer.  It was OK when the party that favors war and violence was in charge, but now that the party that prefers welfare and violence is in power, the enforcers are antsy. 
Here the assumption is that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper. Nope.
Quote

Some argue that we should embrace those who are beginning to realize what is going on.  I'll embrace any one of them - after they quit their job and find a way to make a living that doesn't involve taking taxpayer loot or killing people as SOP.
So in your universe there is no hope of redemption of a wayward person who was duped into serving to follow a "family tradition" or patriotic speeches by family, peers and friends? That's sad.
Quote

From their website:

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people
unless it's TSA shakedowns at airports and bus stations, random searches at subway stations, drug dogs and property confiscation at checkpoints or traffic stops, or warrantless wiretaps of the entire nation.
In the act of committing those acts the oath TAKER violates his/her oath and therefore Cannot Be an Oath Keeper.  ALL WHO TAKE THE OATH ARE NOT OATH KEEPERS. Any more than all religions are evil, all men are domineering a-holes or all women are greedy beetches. "Common Sense is altogether too uncommon." B. Franklin
Quote

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as "unlawful enemy combatants" or to subject them to military tribunal.
Ever hear of Jose Padilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner))?  American citizen.  Detained as unlawful enemy combatant.  Tortured into deep psychosis by the US Navy.  Too late for oathkeepers.
See note above about who is or is not an Oath Keeper.
Quote

Quote
We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a "state of emergency" on a state.
  Unless that state has people who look different and speak a different language.  Then we'll come in like gangbusters, literally shooting everything that moves.
This question(?) and the next few make the assumption that the Oath Keepers was created to educate the entire planet. HARDLY.
OK was formed to attempt to educate those AMERICAN  "young, brainwashed persons" into their responsibility to obey the Oath, the UCMJ and to deeply evaluate their actions concerning the Rights of others especially following the Bill of Rights. We hoped, at the time, to be able to educate enough of the currently serving military and some few of the cops that the outrageous violations of rights, especially the physical violence, would decline or stop altogether. We were only partially successful and yet the "attempt" continues unabated.
Quote
Quote
We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.
Unless the state is named Iraq, or Afganistan, or Serbia, or Iran, or Syria, or Libya, or Yemen, or....

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.
Unless that property is money to pay for Oathkeepers salaries, health plans, retirement benefits, and high-tech weapons.  Then it's OK.
This question makes the assumption that anyone who enters the military or police force can instantly change the things that are and have been policy for generations by simply reaching out and throwing some kind of switch. See Franklin quote above.
Quote

Quote
We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances.
  Except when it's W, the G20, or any other VIP, and the orders are to force protestors into pens called "free speech zones."  Or if the free speech happens to be a blog highlighting the criminal activities of the enforcers.  Then anything goes.
See response above.
Quote

Give me a break.  These people picked jobs where they can beat and kill others.  They are good at what they do.  They will keep doing it. When push comes to shove, they will do what enforcers have always done - beat and kill for whomever is paying them.
This is one of the main reasons that OK has a much smaller number of LEOs than of vets and currently serving military. BUT that bit of knowledge would cost a person a little actual research of the subject which doesn't seem to be the pattern that is shining out here.
Quote

Quote
Modern war and oppression are carried out by a long chain of individuals, each doing his or her job meticulously while simultaneously refusing to look at the end results of his or her work. There is no state or corporate evil that is not the result of personal sinfulness.
Rev. Emmanuel Charles McCarthy (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/mccarthy5.html)

To the extent that the Oathkeepers are an association of currently serving military, police, and firefighters then their ranks are filled with soldiers occupying foreign nations or militarized enforcers occupying American cities and towns.
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote
  Each and every one does their job meticulously.  Their true allegiance is to their comrades, not to the constitution, which one commander that the OK's happily obeyed correctly characterized a "just a goddamned peace of paper."
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote

To expect people who must twist their moral compass off its hinges in order to make their daily bread to suddenly develop a functioning conscience when there is blood in the streets is folly.  When the Catholics under Father McCarthy's care were ordered to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children, including entire convents of Catholic nuns, neither they nor their chaplain objected.  Only after he had walked through the rubble and confronted the results of his own actions did he realize his errors.
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote

It was the same after the Boston Marathon bombing. There were no reports of cops refusing to roust citizens from their homes in Boston.

Oathkeepers will swear their mighty oaths, but they will still drop the bombs, rape the children, shoot the women, burn the villages, steal the money, take the guns, confiscate the hoarded food, and above all else obey their orders and support their comrades.
Here again the assumption that every person who has taken the oath is an Oath Keeper.
Quote
Perhaps a few will realize in hindsight the enormity of their crimes.  But any that presently possess the intellect and self-awarness to contemplate the utter immorality of their actions have already laid down their arms and walked away from the madness.
Not a few of which are here at TMM and among them the few who started OK.
Quote

To the extent that Oath Keepers really does raise awareness among its members, success can be measured by how many resign their commissions and seek honest employment.

My criticisms of the Oath Keepers are not about the concept, but about the Oath itself and how it is described and explained by the Oath Keepers.  A group of people who swear oaths that they immediately and repeatedly violate already infests Mordor on the Potomac.  We don't need more recruits to that particular army.


Peace,

Silver

It is amazing to me that otherwise intelligent people will castigate an entire group to exercize their emotions over an issue that they have not researched beyond the bits and pieces chosen to frame the image as they Feel it is rather than find out what it is actually.

Without having any access to the minds of the thousands currently serving, without being inside the military and police forces, how would You begin to educate those people who obviously need reeducation on freedom and personal Rights?

By all means PLEASE start your own effort to stop the madness.

And please stop denigrating those who are trying to stop the madness in the only way that we thought at the time will actually work without starting the American Revolution II.


Very nicely done Gooch. Sometimes the sheer hate and irrationality gets thick around here.

The idea itself is sound. For 12 or so people who could actually work together.

Stewart Rhodes has tried to do something significant and I salute him for that.  There will always be people who try to drag everything and everyone down.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: slidemansailor on February 23, 2016, 08:15:05 am
The elites even have full-time staffs whose job it is to disrupt and drag down anything useful.  To think they aren't here is foolish. Most of us are smart enough to recognize drones, trolls and individuals who are negative by nature for what they are... an impediment to intelligent discussion. They are not, however, going to prevent such intercourse unless we let them.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Klapton Isgod on February 23, 2016, 09:45:21 am
There will always be someone trying to stop people from having intercourse.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Silver on February 23, 2016, 11:45:15 am

Quote
Are you aware that she and two other (both also cops) National Board of Directors members were removed from the Board and "drummed out" of the organization for pretty much the things you describe? And within a year of the formation of the organization ... if memory serves.

No I was not.  I raised this point some years ago and no one responded to it.  That's good news, and a good response.

Quote
When did Oath Keepers come in to being ? ( right here at TMM btw )

Have you spent any time or made any exertion in researching the organization beyond the search for examples of "faults" with which to crucify the organization? - - - 2009 February actually but 2009 March Officially in case you wondered.

I have done some research, but I missed that.  I was under the impression the organization was several years older, and that TMM was simply an announcement. 

Another good point, I withdraw all criticisms about events before 2009.


Quote
So in your universe there is no hope of redemption of a wayward person who was duped into serving to follow a "family tradition" or patriotic speeches by family, peers and friends? That's sad.

There is always hope of redemption.  Quit the job and walk away.  You did it, Elias did it, Stewart did it, more than I can count have done it.  I've marched beside vets whose eyes were opened, even at the expense of losing limbs.

Family tradition and patriotic speeches are good reasons why young, impressionable people might join these organizations.  But once they see with their own eyes the realities of the job, they have a choice.  Either develop a self-serving us versus them moral code that excuses all actions, up to and including summary execution, or resign and walk away.

What I don't believe in, and can't trust, is that someone whose day job involves throwing young men against the wall, in whatever country, can be redeemed even as teeth meet stone.  That's a contradiction I can't tolerate.

Quote
In the act of committing those acts the oath TAKER violates his/her oath and therefore Cannot Be an Oath Keeper.  ALL WHO TAKE THE OATH ARE NOT OATH KEEPERS. Any more than all religions are evil, all men are domineering a-holes or all women are greedy beetches. "Common Sense is altogether too uncommon." B. Franklin

I realize that all who take the oath are not Oath Keepers.  My criticism is of Oath Keepers who participate in those activities, or condone it with activities like back-up and silence.

Quote
This question(?) and the next few make the assumption that the Oath Keepers was created to educate the entire planet. HARDLY.
OK was formed to attempt to educate those AMERICAN  "young, brainwashed persons" into their responsibility to obey the Oath, the UCMJ and to deeply evaluate their actions concerning the Rights of others especially following the Bill of Rights. We hoped, at the time, to be able to educate enough of the currently serving military and some few of the cops that the outrageous violations of rights, especially the physical violence, would decline or stop altogether. We were only partially successful and yet the "attempt" continues unabated.

I understand that the mission is directed at current and former US military and US LEO.  But I hold those folks to the same standard even when they are sent overseas.

Quote
This question makes the assumption that anyone who enters the military or police force can instantly change the things that are and have been policy for generations by simply reaching out and throwing some kind of switch. See Franklin quote above.
I make no assumptions about the ability to change these institutions.  I'm rather pessimistic about those prospects.  My point is that one cannot carry out many, perhaps most of the orders issued to US military and LEO without violating the Oath of the OathKeepers.


Quote
This is one of the main reasons that OK has a much smaller number of LEOs than of vets and currently serving military. BUT that bit of knowledge would cost a person a little actual research of the subject which doesn't seem to be the pattern that is shining out here.

Being part of an occupation army includes routine activities like warrantless searches, disarming the civilian population, the imposition of martial law, etc. I find no distinction between doing these things to non-Americans and American citizens.  I find it especially difficult to believe that people trained and experienced in these activities abroad will not respond in the same way when given those orders at home.

Quote
It is amazing to me that otherwise intelligent people will castigate an entire group to exercize their emotions over an issue that they have not researched beyond the bits and pieces chosen to frame the image as they Feel it is rather than find out what it is actually.

Without having any access to the minds of the thousands currently serving, without being inside the military and police forces, how would You begin to educate those people who obviously need reeducation on freedom and personal Rights?

By all means PLEASE start your own effort to stop the madness.

And please stop denigrating those who are trying to stop the madness in the only way that we thought at the time will actually work without starting the American Revolution II.

I criticize, I do not denigrate.  I've acknowledged to Elias and others that I understand the goals and appreciate them.

Criticism, even vigorous criticism, is not the same as denigration.  I don't denigrate Elias, or gooch, or Stewart.  I do denigrate Celia S. Hyde and every MA LEO who enforces that state's draconian and wholly unconstitutional firearms laws.  I'm pleased to hear that she has been removed from the OathKeeper organization.  It's a good start.

I wish you luck, I truly do.  I'm not optimistic but then there are times that I'm pretty pessimistic about me and everything else.  I'm working one furrow in this field, others toil in adjacent, distant, or even intersecting paths.  It's all good, and I'll accept criticism of my work just as I dish out my criticism of others.

Peace,

Silver
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: RVM45 on February 23, 2016, 12:58:39 pm
Friends,

I try to stay out of these debates.

I think that on the whole The Oath-Keepers are a comparatively good thing…

EE…

Currently it is against the Law for ANYONE to posses Full-Automatic Weapons and Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns. This is Blatantly Unconstitutional…

Yet what Oath-Keeper would turn a blind eye to someone in possession of these?

{Yes, special permits are available in Some States—not Germaine}

Currently Convicted Felons are forbidden to own Firearms. I'm not sure about the Constitutionality of this—but it amounts to Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

Laws can be changed and gotten around but in Principle taking away a Man's ability to own Guns is no more crippling to his prospects of Happiness and Joy in life than gouging out his eyes.

The Constitution says, "Keep and BEAR." "Bear" means "Carry." What Oath-Keeper would turn a blind eye to someone caught carrying a Firearm without a Permit?

So if and when the State ever says, "Go door-to-door searching for .38 and .45 caliber Pistols and 12 and 20 Gauge Shotguns"—Presumably y'all Oath-Keepers will Piously Refuse.

In the meantime—You have no qualms about Executing a no-knock warrant against an Ex-Felon selling Sawed-Off Shotguns and Machine Guns out of his apartment…

Actually, since any and all Firearms restrictions are Immoral and Unconstitutional—a "Good" Oath-Keeper would have to refuse to enforce any Gun Restrictions and would promptly find himself out of a Job.

Someone is already Sputtering:

"But you have to draw the line somewhere."

And as Crabby Old Ayn Rand always used to say:

"Who is to Decide?"

Let us strive for a moment to temporarily put aside all Arguments against any and all Governments and Laws.

Let us assume for the sake of argument that States and Minimal Laws are Moral and Legitimate.

"Dude—Addressed to me—What Firearms restrictions are you willing to accept and abide by?"

I will veto—insofar as it is up to me—any Firearm restriction that might even Conceivably apply to me at some hypothetical point in the future.

No Guns for Krazies?

Well someone may feel that I'm Krazy.

No Guns for Convicted Felons?

I may be a Convicted Felon someday. I may feel compelled—even as Thoreau was—to break a Law I feel is wrong. I might suffer a lapse of Judgement. I might be convicted of something that I didn't do.

I dislike the fact that the NRA endorses Guns for GCBs* but they have no problem with Laws against the dregs of society, "Krazy People" and "Bad People" owning Guns.

Quite frankly—although I have a ready wit and a facility with words…

I have been a hardcore loser most of my life. I've circulated amongst the bottom-feeders of the Modern World.

Like I heard a Comedienne say about Job Applications:

"Have You Ever Been Convicted of a Felony? Please Explain:"

"NO. GOOD LAWYER."

In my case: Good Luck, Native Wit and The Grace of God.

I'm probably one of the unstable Growly-Bads that the NRA GCBs* have in mind when they approve  of "Disarming the Rabble."


…..RVM45


* = Good Citizen Bastard
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 23, 2016, 02:36:10 pm


Stewart Rhodes has tried to do something significant and I salute him for that.  There will always be people who try to drag everything and everyone down.
[/quote]

Those who are dragging us all down are the cops and the military working on behalf of the government. They are known as the order followers. Stewart Rhodes has simply tried to smear public relations lacquer over a certified pile of shit. The oath keepers are mostly cops and military, individuals who have some special anointing to murder, steal and kidnap on behalf of their god government. Then they want to push the indoctrination of government further with this oath to a piece of paper. A piece of paper most have not consented to, that gives the government and their order followers the ability to murder, steal and kidnap us. It is obvious to see that as long as the false paradigm continues, the masses will continue to be happy defending the lesser of two evils. Mother Circe smiles from Patmos.
(https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M063c0eb82ae4e49016c0de5b7cfa9c07o1&pid=15.1&H=156&W=160&P=0)
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Klapton Isgod on February 23, 2016, 03:17:24 pm
Friends,

I try to stay out of these debates.

I think that on the whole The Oath-Keepers are a comparatively good thing…

EE…

Currently it is against the Law for ANYONE to posses Full-Automatic Weapons and Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns. This is Blatantly Unconstitutional…

Yet what Oath-Keeper would turn a blind eye to someone in possession of these?

Every one I know.  They would want to get together and shoot them.

Quote
{Yes, special permits are available in Some States—not Germaine}

Currently Convicted Felons are forbidden to own Firearms. I'm not sure about the Constitutionality of this—but it amounts to Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

Laws can be changed and gotten around but in Principle taking away a Man's ability to own Guns is no more crippling to his prospects of Happiness and Joy in life than gouging out his eyes.

The Constitution says, "Keep and BEAR." "Bear" means "Carry." What Oath-Keeper would turn a blind eye to someone caught carrying a Firearm without a Permit?

Of course an Oath Keeper is not going to get their panties in a bunch over someone carrying a gun without someone's "permission."

Quote
So if and when the State ever says, "Go door-to-door searching for .38 and .45 caliber Pistols and 12 and 20 Gauge Shotguns"—Presumably y'all Oath-Keepers will Piously Refuse.

YES.  It's the first one on the list.  (You have read it, right?)

Quote
In the meantime—You have no qualms about Executing a no-knock warrant against an Ex-Felon selling Sawed-Off Shotguns and Machine Guns out of his apartment…

Oath Keepers has made public statements condemning "no knock" raids.  They had a march for Jose Guerena after he was murdered in a no knock raid.

Quote
Actually, since any and all Firearms restrictions are Immoral and Unconstitutional—a "Good" Oath-Keeper would have to refuse to enforce any Gun Restrictions and would promptly find himself out of a Job.

Someone is already Sputtering:

"But you have to draw the line somewhere."

I will draw it here, since my answer will be the same to the rest of this.  Not to be a jerk or anything, but you seem to be ranting a lot about what Oath Keepers does or does not support without having even tried to find out first.  On the ONE issue that OK can most likely be counted on to actually stand firm on:  RKBA.

.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: RVM45 on February 23, 2016, 05:00:59 pm
Maybe you're right.

I just made assumptions about how Real World Pragmatism always seems to override Stands made for Principle.

Just a story—that was years before Oath-Keepers.

I got swept up semi-innocently in a police raid.

The Laws seemed astounded that I was carrying three pistols and a half dozen knives.

Honest, I was working out of town and I had the .30 Carbine Blackhawk along because I had hopes of doing some squirrel hunting. I stuck it in the front of my pants and pulled my shirt over it because I didn't want to leave in the van in a bad neighborhood. My Everyday Carry was a 4" S&W .44 Magnum and a Government Model 1911A1 .45…

Anyway, I noticed that after that I was constantly pulled over by laws. They knew me by name and they all made a point of asking me if I "Still carried all those Guns?"

One Law quizzed me several times about "Why do you carry so many Guns?"

He kept warning me that: "I don't want you to get into trouble."

I didn't understand what he meant. Legally I could carry 50 Guns if I wanted to. I didn't feel comfortable explaining the concepts of "Back-ups and Hideouts" with someone who should know the concept already. I was left wondering:

"Are you stupid or do you simply think that I'm stupid?"

Nor did I realize that I was targeted. I thought that being pulled over so many times was just a statistical anomaly.

Years later I realized what he was hinting at:

What he was trying to say was that I'd become a target and they were going to keep hounding me until they found some pretext to cancel my permit.

{And they did…}

That is the type Real World behavior from Laws that I'm used to.



…..RVM45
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Klapton Isgod on February 23, 2016, 05:14:01 pm
For the record:  I have stated many times that I have much greater optimism that the military will disobey than cops.  For most in the military, the idea of pointing their guns at other Americans is repugnant.  (I recognize that this represents a double standard that should not exist.  I am simply stating what I believe to be true, not what I think SHOULD be true).  For cops, other Americans are the "enemy" from day one.  There are other HUGE differences, but I don't feel like listing them.

Anyway...  You should know that I almost got thrown out of Oath Keepers for "cop bashing."

.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: DiabloLoco on February 23, 2016, 06:19:37 pm
For the record:  I have stated many times that I have much greater optimism that the military will disobey than cops.  For most in the military, the idea of pointing their guns at other Americans is repugnant.  (I recognize that this represents a double standard that should not exist.  I am simply stating what I believe to be true, not what I think SHOULD be true).  For cops, other Americans are the "enemy" from day one.  There are other HUGE differences, but I don't feel like listing them.

Anyway...  You should know that I almost got thrown out of Oath Keepers for "cop bashing."

.
I understand what you are saying, but will add this- Many returning soldiers go directly into law enforcement. I have seen some reports that state something like 20% of them try to become a cop when they get back. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 23, 2016, 06:24:31 pm


Anyway...  You should know that I almost got thrown out of Oath Keepers for "cop bashing."



Mother Circe has been thrown out of two separate golden corrals, a pee wee hockey game, a minor league hockey game, several different movie theaters and a children's hospital for "cop bashing." Mother Circe was allowed to leave Golden Corral with a full doggie bag both times. Mother Circe is blessed
(http://image.cdn.ispot.tv/ad/AZNx/golden-corral-take-home-box-another-meal-ft-jeff-foxworthy-large-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 23, 2016, 07:31:00 pm

Mother Circe has been thrown out of two separate golden corrals, a pee wee hockey game, a minor league hockey game, several different movie theaters and a children's hospital for "cop bashing." Mother Circe was allowed to leave Golden Corral with a full doggie bag both times. Mother Circe is blessed


I tip my hat to you.  My kind of Mother.  {slow clap}

Mother Circe wonders, is NMB an acronym, or is it simply short for NUMB ? Either way, Mother Circe is always fond of slow claps.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/srcstc.gif)
(http://img.pandawhale.com/50056-Senor-Chang-slow-clap-VJoG.gif)
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Conan-Stand-Up-and-Claps.gif)
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on February 24, 2016, 12:07:58 am
  In Haiti a U.S. army group I have some slight knowledge of  specifically read the Haitian constitution and tried to abide by it.  There were  two cases where men refused to do what the Haitian constitution said they couldn't do.  That was no problem because everyone knew they were right. 


Regarding gun confiscation in Afghanistan-  Guns of all types, sizes and descriptions were everywhere.  In  one case a group acting as a blocking force came across a man.  The Afghan national army soldiers searched the man and found a Tokarev, which were common (but not as common as makarovs), The ANA wanted to confiscate it. The man proceeded on his way with his personal weapon.
 
Same thing happened other times with AK type weapons and in one case a shotgun.   

A lot of it has to do with leadership, either  designated leaders at any level or informal leaders. Or just people who have enough passion and ability to articulate.

 

 I don't know about now but most people can recognize when something is wrong.  That is probably increasingly less so with state schooling though.  And then all it takes is one man or woman to refuse, one individual with a backbone.

  I'm not saying this always works, but it does happen.   I'm also not saying that anything is right about any of the wars, the police atrocities or anything else that offends people here.

  The blanket use of  the term "order followers" is simplistic and stupid.  In my estimation it is used by people who aren't as bright as they think they are.   

I believe that the OK concept has merit in the real world. It may not work but any resistance at any level is something to appreciate rather than tear down.

Criticizing is fine but some people make a career out of it and offer nothing else.


I wonder what has happened to the attempt to trash Stewart Rhodes right here on this board?  It read an awful lot like an attempt at denigration to me.



Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: mothercirce on February 24, 2016, 03:37:37 pm
The blanket use of  the term "order followers" is simplistic and stupid.  In my estimation it is used by people who aren't as bright as they think they are.

Order Followers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y9FpBAVuIc
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on February 24, 2016, 08:49:10 pm
The blanket use of  the term "order followers" is simplistic and stupid.  In my estimation it is used by people who aren't as bright as they think they are.

Order Followers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y9FpBAVuIc

Of course,  the concept has been known about and discussed long before Passio was born.  Usually, unlike Passio, by people who had actual experience.  A notable example and one where I became very aware of the concept of order followers  is from J. Glenn Gray's book, The Warriors Reflections on Men in Battle.   

Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bill St. Clair on February 24, 2016, 08:59:43 pm
Yep. The job of the police is to make the rantings of a gang of professional liars have the same unavoidable consequences as  natural law. Without them, those rantings are just ink stains on paper, with no authority whatsoever. Their job is to turn those ink stains into gravity.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: knobster on February 25, 2016, 06:16:51 am
For the record:  I have stated many times that I have much greater optimism that the military will disobey than cops.  For most in the military, the idea of pointing their guns at other Americans is repugnant.  (I recognize that this represents a double standard that should not exist.  I am simply stating what I believe to be true, not what I think SHOULD be true).  For cops, other Americans are the "enemy" from day one.  There are other HUGE differences, but I don't feel like listing them.

Anyway...  You should know that I almost got thrown out of Oath Keepers for "cop bashing."

.
I understand what you are saying, but will add this- Many returning soldiers go directly into law enforcement. I have seen some reports that state something like 20% of them try to become a cop when they get back. Just sayin'.

After I finished up basic training for the Air Force my next stop was tech school.  The first day (orientation) included a tour of the place, where we ate/slept/exercised/learned/crapped/etc and where we should line up at dawn the next day.  At 1700 hours that first day we were dismissed until reveille.  All of us fresh-out-of-boot robots looked around in confusion.  Huh?  We can go eat and then... do what?  No one was telling us what to do after chow!  What time do we hit the sack?  We had become conditioned to follow orders without question.  I was 29 when I went through basic and was surrounded by 18 and 19 year olds whose minds were probably much more malleable.

I'm convinced that if a drill sergeant had walked up to us and barked orders to pick up baseball bats and charge into a crowd of people we would have done it.

Now, would the drill sergeant have obeyed his CO if given those orders?  Dunno...

Oh, and upon my return from military life I did indeed take the initial physical/mental/behavioral exam to become an LEO.  I passed the first two but for some reason failed the behavioral.  Guess I didn't have what it takes.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: RVM45 on February 25, 2016, 12:48:32 pm
Friends,

Joining the US Army was the worst mistake of my life.

I don't deal well with stress and I require more sleep than most to feel atop my game. PLus I really bought into the bullshit about military dudes being "Steely-Eyed Killers" and wanted that distinction for myself—and I was bitterly disappointed to find that military life is more about being a Janitor than being a Homicidal Assassin.

Be all that as it may. If all of the Army life was just an extended version of Basic Training I think that I could have done my four years.

You KNEW when you awoke in the morning that absolutely NOTHING good was going to happen to you that day. You learned to accept that.

Later at AIT and Permanent Party—4 days out of 5 you just Might be able to do something semi-enjoyable after last formation. That made it far more disappointing when GI Parties or some other Dipshit nonsense took that modest reward away from you with little or no warning.


…..RVM45
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on February 26, 2016, 01:08:24 am
Friends,

Joining the US Army was the worst mistake of my life.

I don't deal well with stress and I require more sleep than most to feel atop my game. PLus I really bought into the bullshit about military dudes being "Steely-Eyed Killers" and wanted that distinction for myself—and I was bitterly disappointed to find that military life is more about being a Janitor than being a Homicidal Assassin.

Be all that as it may. If all of the Army life was just an extended version of Basic Training I think that I could have done my four years.

You KNEW when you awoke in the morning that absolutely NOTHING good was going to happen to you that day. You learned to accept that.

Later at AIT and Permanent Party—4 days out of 5 you just Might be able to do something semi-enjoyable after last formation. That made it far more disappointing when GI Parties or some other Dipshit nonsense took that modest reward away from you with little or no warning.


…..RVM45

have to get through airborne school first before you can move on there RVM
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on February 26, 2016, 01:12:43 am
Yep. The job of the police is to make the rantings of a gang of professional liars have the same unavoidable consequences as  natural law. Without them, those rantings are just ink stains on paper, with no authority whatsoever. Their job is to turn those ink stains into gravity.

Can't argue with that observation. How do you feel about the Border Patrol?
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: RVM45 on February 26, 2016, 01:52:23 am
Friends,

Joining the US Army was the worst mistake of my life.

I don't deal well with stress and I require more sleep than most to feel atop my game. PLus I really bought into the bullshit about military dudes being "Steely-Eyed Killers" and wanted that distinction for myself—and I was bitterly disappointed to find that military life is more about being a Janitor than being a Homicidal Assassin.

Be all that as it may. If all of the Army life was just an extended version of Basic Training I think that I could have done my four years.

You KNEW when you awoke in the morning that absolutely NOTHING good was going to happen to you that day. You learned to accept that.

Later at AIT and Permanent Party—4 days out of 5 you just Might be able to do something semi-enjoyable after last formation. That made it far more disappointing when GI Parties or some other Dipshit nonsense took that modest reward away from you with little or no warning.


…..RVM45

have to get through airborne school first before you can move on there RVM

Yeah. Have I told my story about how I failed out of Airborne school at Ft Benning here on TMM? I thought maybe that was what you were referring to.

If I could have just jumped out of that damned 32 foot tower at Airborne School all the gates to the treasure vaults of Heaven would have opened to me.

Nah, that whole idea is a kind of Hollywood myth. Do you think that when Carlos Hathcock walked down a city sidewalk that folks were so spooked by the sight of him that they crossed the street to avoid his deadly aura?

Hell no! A bunch of teen gangbangers would be as likely to target Hathcock as they would be to attack a plumber.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: heyoka on February 26, 2016, 09:04:40 am
you & Jimi (Hendrix)
 "There's nothing but physical training and harassment here for two weeks, then when you go to jump school ... you get hell. They work you to death, fussing and fighting."
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Hendrix_in_Army.jpg)

Gunnery Sgt. Hathcock is dead too BTW.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on April 08, 2016, 05:28:43 am
For the record:  I have stated many times that I have much greater optimism that the military will disobey than cops.  For most in the military, the idea of pointing their guns at other Americans is repugnant.  (I recognize that this represents a double standard that should not exist.  I am simply stating what I believe to be true, not what I think SHOULD be true).  For cops, other Americans are the "enemy" from day one.  There are other HUGE differences, but I don't feel like listing them.

Anyway...  You should know that I almost got thrown out of Oath Keepers for "cop bashing."

.
I understand what you are saying, but will add this- Many returning soldiers go directly into law enforcement. I have seen some reports that state something like 20% of them try to become a cop when they get back. Just sayin'.

After I finished up basic training for the Air Force my next stop was tech school.  The first day (orientation) included a tour of the place, where we ate/slept/exercised/learned/crapped/etc and where we should line up at dawn the next day.  At 1700 hours that first day we were dismissed until reveille.  All of us fresh-out-of-boot robots looked around in confusion.  Huh?  We can go eat and then... do what?  No one was telling us what to do after chow!  What time do we hit the sack?  We had become conditioned to follow orders without question.  I was 29 when I went through basic and was surrounded by 18 and 19 year olds whose minds were probably much more malleable.

I'm convinced that if a drill sergeant had walked up to us and barked orders to pick up baseball bats and charge into a crowd of people we would have done it.

Now, would the drill sergeant have obeyed his CO if given those orders?  Dunno...

Oh, and upon my return from military life I did indeed take the initial physical/mental/behavioral exam to become an LEO.  I passed the first two but for some reason failed the behavioral.  Guess I didn't have what it takes.


following orders without question is for the weak minded.

Normally in this context, there has to be an element of, this is a  righteous action,  for that to happen.   

Most likely the student air persons would have milled around in confusion if given the order to  "pick up baseball bats and charge into a crowd of people" by either the NCOIC or the OIC.  Or some rational individual would have spoken up.  Or the air persons would have shown a decided lack of interest in actually engaging in personal combat.


That isn't to say that emotion can't  drive the situation but that is a very high bar.
 

As far as being a LEO, in my brief experience, the pukes were the individuals who either  were never in the military or were some kind of pogue/remf.
 

Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Jake on May 09, 2016, 01:11:11 am
It has often be my thot that following high school, 2 years of military training would square away a bunch more before they enter college, even women.  It would be like adding another 4 inches to the gun barrel.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: MamaLiberty on May 09, 2016, 05:07:32 am
It has often be my thot that following high school, 2 years of military training would square away a bunch more before they enter college, even women.  It would be like adding another 4 inches to the gun barrel.

Slavery, cool way to start one's adult life...   ;p
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bill St. Clair on May 09, 2016, 06:00:51 am
Military training might be just the thing for some high school graduates, and they're free to enlist if that be their desire.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: MamaLiberty on May 09, 2016, 08:11:41 am
Military training might be just the thing for some high school graduates, and they're free to enlist if that be their desire.

I didn't get the impression from that post that it would be voluntary. But I see zero benefit to young people being taught to blindly follow orders, or learning even more aggression than otherwise. The "discipline" is pretty much all anti-freedom, and anti personal responsibility...  I know something about the military "culture" - having been a Marine "brat," and a Navy wife. Most of the young people I see coming OUT of the military are seriously damaged in some way, though a few finally figure out that they were conned and used.

But yes, it is their choice, as long as there is no actual "draft."
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Bill St. Clair on May 09, 2016, 08:20:03 am
I didn't get the impression from that post that it would be voluntary. But I see zero benefit to young people being taught to blindly follow orders, or learning even more aggression than otherwise. The "discipline" is pretty much all anti-freedom, and anti personal responsibility...  I know something about the military "culture" - having been a Marine "brat," and a Navy wife. Most of the young people I see coming OUT of the military are seriously damaged in some way, though a few finally figure out that they were conned and used.

I agree with you, MamaLiberty. I detected a hint of compulsory in Jake's suggestion of two years of military training between high school and college. But he didn't actually SAY that. I also don't think military training is generally a good idea. But I've never done it, so I really don't know. I recommend that anyone tempted to enlist be given a copy of Major General Smedley Butler's War Is A Racket (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html).

The draft is precisely the "involuntary servitude" forbidden by the Thirteenth Amendment.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Jake on May 10, 2016, 02:06:50 am
It was different when I was in and the benefit that I was referring to is the structured approach of discipline, self hygiene, neatness, responsibility, and the other good stuff that most military learns that helps them to keep their pie hole shut until something of value does come out.  Most military personnel that I had the pleasure were aware of the, "what goes on in the field stays in the field", the screening of war news where the ones at home were not exposed to the same as those at war. 

I agree that it is commercial and wrong for the conflicts going on now.  I feel that it will be here very soon tho.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: slidemansailor on May 10, 2016, 08:41:37 am
I used to buy into the "make a man out of ya" mantra. Now I figure aging does that one way or another.

I also think that most men will grow up somewhere between 14 and 40 regardless of where life leads them. 

What military service and government schools do is prevent that evolution from being inspired by individual creativity.  The resultant person fits better as a cog in a externally-designed machine.  While the owners of the machine and fellow cogs might agree this is a good thing, I remain unconvinced.

I think a few years on a remote farm, ranch or Walden Pond would be far better... ideally, some situation where if the individual does not produce, they do not eat. If they don't cut stack and burn wood, their room gets real cold.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Jake on May 10, 2016, 10:38:48 am
What military service and government schools do is prevent that evolution from being inspired by individual creativity.  The resultant person fits better as a cog in a externally-designed machine.  While the owners of the machine and fellow cogs might agree this is a good thing, I remain unconvinced.

That fits pretty good to me and a hindsight awakining. 
I think a few years on a remote farm, ranch or Walden Pond would be far better... ideally, some situation where if the individual does not produce, they do not eat. If they don't cut stack and burn wood, their room gets real cold.
This fits into my thots as isolation psychology, where I'd struggle with those that had been away and come back with different approaches and try to change what I had created.

I guess it boils down to "this is the way, because we have always done it that way"; Vs "this should be the better way".

I wish I had found this forum a loooong time ago.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: FDD on May 10, 2016, 10:57:45 am
Well Jake, you are here now, and it is never to late to learn anything.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Rarick on May 10, 2016, 12:07:26 pm
The services can give the young folks the ability, thru the extreme structure, the ability to structure themselves.  How many times have you stood behind a kids and shown them how to do a knot?  That is how extreme control and structure sometimes work when nothing else does.

The pile of skills you learn plus you also learn to think like a possible enemy.  The key is to remember why you came, and what your goal was.  You learn to work within a very structured environment to get what you want and what needs done.  Those rules do not necessarily apply outside the service, but it does teach you a cause and effect for your actions.

You pick up crude camping skills, marksmanship, a trade if you pick the right MOS, stress management, how to deal with the lack of modern convenience, learn about the world beyond the USA in a manner tourism will never teach, etc.

Meantime the entry tests during the schooling phase are a lot of fussing and bullshit.  A 2 year tour of duty was mainly training up a bullet throwing bullet catcher, a war in some far off place, and a month or two while the processed your walking papers.  Now it tends to be a year of training, 2 tours of duty in some far off place, sometime with lead weighted weather, and a process for discharge.....oh and it is a voluntary trauma thing, probably no worse than jackass the movie.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: snydleyr on May 14, 2016, 02:35:07 pm
It was different when I was in and the benefit that I was referring to is the structured approach of discipline, self hygiene, neatness, responsibility, and the other good stuff that most military learns that helps them to keep their pie hole shut until something of value does come out.  Most military personnel that I had the pleasure were aware of the, "what goes on in the field stays in the field", the screening of war news where the ones at home were not exposed to the same as those at war. 

I agree that it is commercial and wrong for the conflicts going on now.  I feel that it will be here very soon tho.
I joined when I was 17 in 1972, GI Joe and the whole nine yards.  The whole structured approach and what you have stated was true in my case.  We also were not fooled by "The Establishment" for the most part.  It was a different time and era back then and we didn't need or have "safe spaces".  It was a divided nation at the time and even though we were in the military we knew what was happening in the world stage.  That doesn't mean that we didn't get screwed over by "The Man".  People of my generation also dropped the ball by "tuning in and dropping out", we got political only to stop the war then everything was cool man.  Then life actually had creeped up on us and we actually had to get in tune with life and make a living and paided no attention to the powers that be and creeped in and did their thing and now we know the rest of the story.  Now it's 2016 and the second revolution is about to be kicked off and it's not just about the USA anymore, it's about the whole world.  The whole world is watching and holding their collective breath that we do hold on and stay the course and keep freedom alive for the entire planet.  For if we fail then the whole world falls into darkness and then it will truly be hell on earth. :huh: :mellow:   
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: FDD on May 14, 2016, 03:41:12 pm
It was different when I was in and the benefit that I was referring to is the structured approach of discipline, self hygiene, neatness, responsibility, and the other good stuff that most military learns that helps them to keep their pie hole shut until something of value does come out.  Most military personnel that I had the pleasure were aware of the, "what goes on in the field stays in the field", the screening of war news where the ones at home were not exposed to the same as those at war. 

I agree that it is commercial and wrong for the conflicts going on now.  I feel that it will be here very soon tho.
I joined when I was 17 in 1972, GI Joe and the whole nine yards.  The whole structured approach and what you have stated was true in my case.  We also were not fooled by "The Establishment" for the most part.  It was a different time and era back then and we didn't need or have "safe spaces".  It was a divided nation at the time and even though we were in the military we knew what was happening in the world stage.  That doesn't mean that we didn't get screwed over by "The Man".  People of my generation also dropped the ball by "tuning in and dropping out", we got political only to stop the war then everything was cool man.  Then life actually had creeped up on us and we actually had to get in tune with life and make a living and paided no attention to the powers that be and creeped in and did their thing and now we know the rest of the story.  Now it's 2016 and the second revolution is about to be kicked off and it's not just about the USA anymore, it's about the whole world.  The whole world is watching and holding their collective breath that we do hold on and stay the course and keep freedom alive for the entire planet.  For if we fail then the whole world falls into darkness and then it will truly be hell on earth. :huh: :mellow:   

Sorry id I do not agree with you.

I have lived in "Hell" on earth (Chicago) and I say let it fall.
They, TPTB, have made their bed, so let them lay in it and every one that voted for them to make it so.
personally, I do not see it being that dark when it does fall, or maybe I am that much prepared for the shit.
Time will tell. but I look forward to it happening sooner than later.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: Klapton Isgod on May 14, 2016, 04:34:25 pm
One thing I learned from military service is that I can survive nearly any level of bullshit as long as there is an end in sight.

.
Title: Re: Oath Keepers forming special teams...
Post by: jamie on May 14, 2016, 09:38:35 pm
finished