The Mental Militia Forums

MindWar => MindWar => Topic started by: MamaLiberty on January 30, 2015, 09:20:50 am

Title: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: MamaLiberty on January 30, 2015, 09:20:50 am
This is probably the most important and horrible part of any "MindWar" going on today. Do you REALLY think that the government "schools" can be reformed, or that you can counter this insanity by talking to the children after "school?"  Give it up... and do whatever it takes to keep them out of these abattoirs.

Handcuffs, leg shackles and tasers: The new face of punishment in the public schools
John W. Whitehead The Daily Bell
http://tinyurl.com/k77ob7q
"At least 500 students are locked up in some form of solitary confinement every day, whether it be a padded room, a closet or a duffel bag. In many cases, parents are rarely notified when such methods are used. On any given day when school is in session, kids who 'act up' in class are pinned facedown on the floor, locked in dark closets, tied up with straps, bungee cords and duct tape, handcuffed, leg shackled, tasered or otherwise restrained, immobilized or placed in solitary confinement in order to bring them under 'control.' In almost every case, these undeniably harsh methods are used to punish kids for simply failing to follow directions or throwing tantrums. Very rarely do the kids pose any credible danger to themselves or others. Unbelievably, these tactics are all legal, at least when employed by school officials or school resource officers (a.k.a. police officers) in the nation's public schools." (01/28/15)
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: knobster on January 30, 2015, 10:54:05 am
Sheesh.  Yeah, any 'reforms' these parents start at the local level will be squashed.  Be vocal with school administration?  Demand they change?  Screw that.  Get your children out of these hell-holes.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Cyrellys on January 31, 2015, 12:12:52 am
We homeschool.  My eldest two started out in public school and we had to pull them.  Before it was over, I had to lock horns with a militant Principal, and go as far as calling the Homeschool Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) for a little reinforcement.  Here is my advice to parents with kids currently in school:  do not say a single word to the school that you are pulling them if you can avoid it.  If you cannot avoid it, do NOT say anything to the school or anyone else until after the kids are out of it.

As to being able to afford to home school, yes you can. 

First the common argument:  "what makes you think you're qualified to home school your child?"

I heard that one from a teacher who was hostile to the idea.  So let's settle this one right off the bat.  Did you graduate from High School or get your GED?  If the answer is yes then yes you are qualified because you know the materials and subjects your child will be learning.  Will you be available at any point for at least one hour during the day to answer questions, if your child has already mastered basic reading, and 5 hours during the day if your child has not mastered simple reading?  Then yes you can handle home schooling, because there is wonderful tools and curricula out there at your disposal if you choose to use a structured method, and additional internet, libraries, and groups available to support a non-structured style.

Each state has differing legal requirements.  Before you make any leap, investigate what those requirements at each stage happens to be, and stay current after you make the leap.  A first rate source for shopping the information is the HSLDA.  They maintain current information on each state's requirements.

Next think for a moment, what a person really needs in final outcome of education.  The basics are reading, writing, arithmetic, history, spelling, grammar, basic personal financial management skills, and a general perusal of the scope of human knowledge.  If you think back about when you were in school you'll realize that each "grade" was really nothing more than a slightly more advanced circuit through these.  So barring your state's record keeping requirements, the only real decision is how structured you wish to be about this. 

Every child under natural conditions is curious and loves to learn.  They will pick up books and thumb through them if left to their own devices, they will fiddle with contraptions, and they will naturally drive their elders crazy with questions about the world.  Some children are exceptionally expressive either mentally, verbally or physically.  Before you decide how to go about homeschooling, take this early opportunity to study your child(ren).  What is the predominant learning style(s) or combinations of styles -- tactile, visual, audio, associative, intuitive?  Does your child have any physical concerns like eyesight, sugar sensitivity, or negative attitudes which affect their ability to apply themselves? Taking a little bit of time to consider these things gives you a starting place for designing a learning environment and choosing the tools and methods you will use.

If your child has difficulty staying on task, then remove the tv from the room.  It's a good idea to do this anyway to eliminate temptation.  Decide what hours of the day your child is most awake and alert.  Does this work well with your own availability?  Make reasonable adjustments if necessary.  A little common sense goes a long way.  Every family is individual.  If yours is a household of night owls and both parents work, then set the study hours where your assistance is needed within the evening hours and don't fret.  Self study or free ranging can be at a earlier part of the day. 

Some people fret over the cost of curriculum.  It's not necessary.  For the cash strapped, there is an excellent program filled with classical books and supplemented by the Saxon Math system.  This curriculum is the Robinson Curriculum.  All twelve years of books, dictionary, Encyclopedia Brittannica and more comes on disks that can be copied to a computer hard-drive. for easy use.  If your student is just starting out, go get a $2 copy of the McGuffey Primer from Amazon.com and begin with reading and basic math fact memorization.  Facts can be written, recited or sung.

Enrichment means visiting used book stores to collect, older inexpensive books for your personal library.  It can also mean a trip to a local museum or historical society event.  Homeschooling is an opportunity to have an excuse to spend more of your personal time influencing your child's experiences.  A life science experience can be as simple as borrowing a book on local plants from the local library and sitting in a patch of feral weeds thumbing through to identify what's there or it can be a lesson on making bread in the kitchen which involves reading measuring cups with fractional numbers and following instructions.  Civics and political science can involve following the national election processes and candidates or researching a international relations issue you hear about on the news.  Grammar and composition can be learned from a book called Harvey's Elementary Grammar and Composition, which is another of those wonderful $3-$5 books from our nation's earlier days that has a proven track record presenting good information on the subject.  Pair its use up with a blog for posting assigned subject research papers or creative writing and let your child participate in the positive aspects of the internet, building three or more types of real world skills in the process.

Nothing about home schooling has to be complicated.  The whole goal of basic education is to produce an individual with the skills to live and succeed in life.  Public schools with their drive to produce students competitive with the rest of the world have lost sight of this and are alienating learners all over the game board.  Homeschooling gives you the parent the opportunity to correct that and get back to a more organic and truly enriching childhood for your child.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: bennie on January 31, 2015, 05:16:01 am
Super post, Cyrellys!
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: knobster on January 31, 2015, 07:08:45 am
+1  Cyrellys!

Our biggest hurdle when we decided to homeschool was my wife's father.  He was a public school teacher and it took about 5 years before he finally stopped with the snarky comments regarding homeschool.  This past summer he spent time with our kids and realized they were doing just fine without a "good, solid, public education".
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Moonbeam on January 31, 2015, 08:56:09 am
I will reply later (of course - ha!)... I'm on my way to work my volunteer shift at the kid's consignment sale...
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind. on January 31, 2015, 04:01:47 pm
+1 Cyrellys.  One thing on physical disability listing you made. 

I picked up my negative mindset from relatives, society and school.  I was actually NOT negative when living in communist ville (big shocker.)  I became very negative and withdrawn when I encountered American public schools where bullies are protected by the administration, while the victims are punished for defending themselves.  I wasn't nearly as critical and harsh on people as I am now, until I encountered the festering and thoroughly entrenched "legal defense" for the wicked, sloppy, lazy, stupid and evil people in the world... all well practiced in the Land Of The Free.  Maybe it was my psyche railing against the cage within which it was now confined.

Every time I run into people with whom I can freely express myself without hiding to avoid "punishment" or vindictiveness against my point of view... I come alive, happy cheerful and productive.  This is why I'm largely a loner now.  However, I'm also a high speed lifelong self learner.  I pick something up and I know how it works within short order, and recommend improvements and upgrades before long.

I wager most intelligent kids will be your serious negativists, especially if they've bumped their heads against authoritarian morons in positions of power of them.  It appears, from my reading and personal experience, to be an ego defense system (and I'm a strong believer that the ego is a GOOD thing not a bad thing as all the new agers, hippies and anti reality super religious people say.)  The child is informed that despite seeing better ways to do something, he should obey the people performing things in a bad or ineffective/inefficient manner, and the only excuse is "because they said so" or "because they've been here longer than you."  This is an affront to the child's self worth, and an intelligent child will attempt to rail against this at first, until beaten over the head long enough to attempt evasive tactics or retreat into negativism, instead.  Even more so when asking questions or raising their hand is met with "we're still ignoring your hand going up, and going to call on Moron Bob who can't articulate a sentence, and make you sit through his stupidity, because... one size fits all and we don't care that you've been reading at college level since first grade!!  But if you doze off or read that book you sneaked out of the library, we'll send you to detention where the bullies will beat you up and you won't be allowed to swing back or we'll suspend you and write your parents so they can be upset with you for not being a good student!"

Or some variation thereof.

My one consistent trait throughout my schooling years was the prevalence of "does not play well with authority and others."  Usually on the same block on every report cards it said "completes work consistently and well" or "is disruptive and does not obey authority" or something else to that effect.  In classes where I learned things... I often still didn't do the busy work, but I could teach the class by the end of the year... without looking in the back of the book for answers.  As I gained experience with the system, I learned how to do the minimum busy work and get them to approve.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Moonbeam on February 01, 2015, 03:30:31 pm
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...If the answer is yes then yes you are qualified because you know the materials and subjects your child will be learning.

For me, I am more than qualified because no one will love them the way I do, no one will know what's best for them the way I will, and no one will care more about their character than me.

One of the things that excites me about homeschooling is educating myself. Of course I find many aspects of science, math and language arts fascinating, but I am also growing in profound ways that most likely would not have happened had I not pursued this path for my family.

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Next think for a moment, what a person really needs in final outcome of education.

We are incorporating the Charlotte Mason method into our home school. In her book about planning for a CM education, Sonya Shafer asks,

"The best place to begin is at the end: What do you want the "end product" to look like? In other words, what is your goal? When your child stands before you, having completed your program of study, what do you want to see?" 

Writing out our goals made a lot of sense to us and I was somewhat surprised see how much we emphasized character. 

Continuing, Sonya writes, "Education involves so much more than just What do I need to know to pass this test? Education, according to Webster means training by both formal instruction and supervised practice; it includes all that we do to help our children develop mentally, morally, and aesthetically; it involves our persuading our children to feel, believe or act in a desired way. If you have thought through your own goals for your child's education, you'll be less likely to swallow someone else's agenda and find out later that it may not have been the best fit."

Rating the importance of subjects and knowing your states requirements for high school graduation help round out the big picture.

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Every child under natural conditions is curious and loves to learn.

This is so crucial for every parent to grasp. Government indoctrination centers stifle this natural tendency. However, it's possible for a homeschooling parent to squash this as well. Many homeschool parents make the mistake of bringing the school room into the home - they want to mimic a public school setting, which of course is going to make everyone miserable. Even a little bit of unschooling would go a long way.

One of the (many) benefits of homeschooling is the flexibility it offers. I have basically combined the philosophy and recommendations of three curriculums, in addition I pick up ideas and materials outside those curriculums. Homeschooling is very adaptable.

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What is the predominant learning style(s) or combinations of styles -- tactile, visual, audio, associative, intuitive?

This can be a little tricky with younger children. However, as is the case with kids in general, trial and error. And of course, nothing ventured, nothing gained! I found the book, The Way They Learn by Cynthia Tobias to be enlightening.

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...there is an excellent program filled with classical books and supplemented by the Saxon Math system.  This curriculum is the Robinson Curriculum.  All twelve years of books, dictionary, Encyclopedia Brittannica and more comes on disks that can be copied to a computer hard-drive. for easy use.

Yes, it's a very inexpensive program costing $195. One thing of consideration for this curriculum is the cost of toner and paper if you choose to print out all the books. His book list is available for free on the internet and I incorporated his recommendations into my Master Book List (along with the Ron Paul curriculum and Charlotte Mason method). Dr. Robinson used Saxon Math for the "formal" math tutoring, but all the other subjects were literary books. He also tells those who wish to implement his program to not give any form of sugar (sadly, he includes honey in this though i am not positive if he means commercial or raw) and to have no TV in the home. He also had a traditional classroom of sorts set up where his children sat at school desks and he allowed no talking.

Some of his approaches would not be conducive for the environment I strive for in my home. However, I do implement his approach of starting the day with mathematics, and even on the days I cannot teach a formal lesson (I also use Saxon Math) I still give my kids about 25 math problems to solve. I also fully embrace his (and RP's and CM's) belief that lots and lots of reading is key, and that many topics are being taught at too young of an age - before kids have developed certain skills and before the foundation is even set to move on to higher levels of science and math.

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...A life science experience can be...  Civics and political science can involve... Grammar and composition can be learned from...

Some of us homeschooling moms giggle a bit when people ask our "schooling schedule" or when we have to report our school attendance to our umbrella school. We basically teach all year long because there are so many opportunities to do so - there really is no reason to stop. There are so many "teachable moments" and many of those moments occur while I am making a family meal, or running errands, or reading a book they picked out from the library out loud to them. They are often quiet, gentle moments that end up being among the sweetest of memories.

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Nothing about home schooling has to be complicated.

Agreed! A few weeks ago I was having a conversation with a couple of moms I had just met. I told them I homeschool my kids. They said they couldn't do it. I asked why, because you don't think you're smart enough or have the patience? They said because they aren't very organized. I laughed and laughed. I told them I have spent many a morning in my pajamas tutoring them; or I teach them while holding a baby on my hip, while stirring a pot of something on the stove, while trying to remember if I called the dentist for an appointment, while wondering if I should go ahead and start the laundry, while thinking of something else that needs to go on the grocery list! It can be loud and chaotic, but somehow you can find the humor (and if you're inclined, the joy) in the midst of the rivalry, the busyness, the tiny voices, the messes, and the exhaustion.

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Public schools with their drive to produce students competitive with the rest of the world have lost sight of this and are alienating learners all over the game board.

I disagree. I think there is something far more sinister at foot...

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Homeschooling gives you the parent the opportunity to .... get back to a more organic and truly enriching childhood for your child.

Absolutely! And I know I will never, ever regret investing in my children.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind. on February 01, 2015, 07:38:22 pm
Quote
...If the answer is yes then yes you are qualified because you know the materials and subjects your child will be learning.

For me, I am more than qualified because no one will love them the way I do, no one will know what's best for them the way I will, and no one will care more about their character than me.

I'm tempted to think this may actually be a bad thing, since a "mothers' love" usually implies wanting to bring safety to children and shield them from harm.  Usually results in weak offspring and socialism when mothers are baited by clever sociopaths in voting a certain way.  Women as a demographic ALWAYS vote for safety and feel good crap.  The few of you who don't are so rare as to be an insignificant number among the rest.

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One of the things that excites me about homeschooling is educating myself. Of course I find many aspects of science, math and language arts fascinating, but I am also growing in profound ways that most likely would not have happened had I not pursued this path for my family.

This is a good thing.  Any teacher or professor should grow and master their own discipline.  I despised teachers who had to look at the back of the book for answers.  I ripped into them regularly.  As you can tell I have a forceful personality, and this was forged by having to face stupid teachers who didn't know their material... among other forms of adversity.

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"The best place to begin is at the end: What do you want the "end product" to look like? In other words, what is your goal? When your child stands before you, having completed your program of study, what do you want to see?"
Writing out our goals made a lot of sense to us and I was somewhat surprised see how much we emphasized character.

I will say that if you think with this ahead, you will understand not only the governmentalists' "the ends justify the means" but if you look at the currently dumber and dumber crops of students from public schools, you will GET what their endgame is.  They are achieving it.  Just that, as with all government programs, it took a few decades to accomplish what should take a private group a few years at most. :)

To fully get it, read the rest of your quote below and compare and contrast with what I've just said.  KNOW your enemy.  And know that your choice was worthwhile, even if I don't necessarily accept the faith-as-religious aspects of your mindset, know that I agree fully with the rest and you've got my support.
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Quote
Every child under natural conditions is curious and loves to learn.

This is so crucial for every parent to grasp. Government indoctrination centers stifle this natural tendency. However, it's possible for a homeschooling parent to squash this as well. Many homeschool parents make the mistake of bringing the school room into the home - they want to mimic a public school setting, which of course is going to make everyone miserable. Even a little bit of unschooling would go a long way.

One of the (many) benefits of homeschooling is the flexibility it offers. I have basically combined the philosophy and recommendations of three curriculums, in addition I pick up ideas and materials outside those curriculums. Homeschooling is very adaptable.

Quote
What is the predominant learning style(s) or combinations of styles -- tactile, visual, audio, associative, intuitive?

This can be a little tricky with younger children. However, as is the case with kids in general, trial and error. And of course, nothing ventured, nothing gained! I found the book, The Way They Learn by Cynthia Tobias to be enlightening.

Quote
...there is an excellent program filled with classical books and supplemented by the Saxon Math system.  This curriculum is the Robinson Curriculum.  All twelve years of books, dictionary, Encyclopedia Brittannica and more comes on disks that can be copied to a computer hard-drive. for easy use.
[/b]

Wow, my aunt would be rich if her name had been on it.  She did this with me, along with my parents, some 30 years ago!  I went to school because the government forced us to, not because I learned much from it.  I railed against it from the first, and yet I devoured my family's vast bookshelves of both government approved and hidden unapproved stuff.  I finished ALL of their books by age 8, 2nd grade.  I was studying human anatomy at that point, which in that country was a 6th grade thing.  Typically I had nobody to discuss this with, as my parents were working and my peers, well, they were only "peers" in title and name.

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Yes, it's a very inexpensive program costing $195. One thing of consideration for this curriculum is the cost of toner and paper if you choose to print out all the books.

I have my own high grade printing gear.  195 is indeed inexpensive for school materials, even with 150 bucks of printing materials and 30 bucks in paper.  :)

Having external reading materials may be more difficult for parents who aren't bookworms.  Mine were.  YMMV.  Public libraries help, but they're only as well outfitted as their locals can make them.  For example, the ones near me, in Wyoming, are woefully underrepresented in good technical books, good math stuff, good sci fi, good fantasy, and completely unrepresented of the freedom and martial materials.  At my old library on the coast, I could find the M1A1 maintenance manual from Desert Press and several Paladin Press books.  Nothing out here.  NOTHING!

Again, YMMV.

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Quote
...A life science experience can be...  Civics and political science can involve... Grammar and composition can be learned from...

Some of us homeschooling moms giggle a bit when people ask our "schooling schedule" or when we have to report our school attendance to our umbrella school. We basically teach all year long because there are so many opportunities to do so - there really is no reason to stop. There are so many "teachable moments" and many of those moments occur while I am making a family meal, or running errands, or reading a book they picked out from the library out loud to them. They are often quiet, gentle moments that end up being among the sweetest of memories.

What I've boldfaced and underlined is SO important.  This is what school screws up.  They make learning similar to employment, so kids get out of 12 years of indoctrination thinking that they should only learn if they're paid or it benefits their job.  A buck in that trend is absolutely necessary, as few of us had the drive to buck it on their own, and most humans are not willing to risk comfy lives to do it.  (Bucking that trend has given me a nasty underappreciation of my fellow humans, often with good cause, and has caused me to rarely find people with whom I don't get bored shortly to return to my own work or tinkering projects.)

May your children find the world different than our parents left it to us.


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Public schools with their drive to produce students competitive with the rest of the world have lost sight of this and are alienating learners all over the game board.

Actually public schools in other countries were destroyed to bring them in line with American public schooling incompetence.  I went back to visit my former countrymen some time not that long ago, and was disappointed.  I was afraid of competing with THESE GUYS?!  They're little different in stupidity than what I run into out here.  They can't make change anymore than high school graduates in America.  It used to be that people who dropped out of 4th grade knew basic geometry, 6th grade dropouts knew human anatomy and basic microbiology.

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I disagree. I think there is something far more sinister at foot...

As I said above, you are 100% correct.

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Homeschooling gives you the parent the opportunity to .... get back to a more organic and truly enriching childhood for your child.

Absolutely! And I know I will never, ever regret investing in my children.

I often disagree with religious people, but most of those are just mindless breeders who multiply like rodents and then expect someone else to care for their own or vote to give theirs a better chance against their better educated, more knowledgeable betters.

You are not one of those, and for that, I salute you, ma'am  :D
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Cyrellys on February 02, 2015, 01:23:41 am
Thank you to everyone who took the time to reply to my comment.  There were so many interesting remarks, it's hard to decide where to start a reply of my own.  Grin.

@ Bennie -- hat tip!

@ Knobster -- Yes, peripheral family members can prove themselves especially cynical and sometimes even disruptive to homeschooling.  My own mother had some serious doubts when we first began.  But here lies the key roots between her perspective and my own:  my family are Old Irish (this is not Catholic or Protestant Irish.  Old Irish are defined by culture not theology.  Most of us are what historians refer to as Celtic Christians, Pelagians, or Culdean when it comes to any semblance of theocracy.  Largely we steer clear of organized religion altogether.  Old Irish are culturally divided since the early 1960s between what we term traditionalists and moderns.  Moderns have fully embraced the umbrella culture in America and espouse many compromised values which are antithetic to Old Irish values which revolve around the O/I concept of the Pursuit of Excellence.  My mother is a professed modern, while I am a stubborn and intractable traditionalist, lol.  She places a higher value on certain things like socialization (colloquial for synchronization with umbrella culture societal mores, philosophies, conduct, and social systems, than she does on Old Irish classical characteristics like high intellectual skills and acumen.  I've caught her trying a few back door things over the phone with my eldest daughter like trying to encourage her to 'get a boyfriend' and think about things like a future family and social interaction settings like parties.  These clash with our expectations where such activities are inappropriate for a  youngster her age whose focus should reserve those for a later time in her life.  Peripheral relatives mean well and usually don't view their own views as non-constructive or even outright detrimental to what you're trying to do.  Diplomacy can help if it can be applied without sacrificing your position.  If it fails, frank conversations sometimes have to be had with the individual in question.

@ Destin, I know precisely what you mean!  My eldest two children spent the first four and three, respectively, years in public school to a disastrous result.  The few years spent in it created a near night and day difference on opinion about education and learning, between themselves and their younger siblings.  The entire first year was spent in unwrapping the tangled mess of damage done to their psyche and self-worth.  Every time I turned around they were comparing what we were doing to the negatives experienced within the public school experience.  My eldest daughter was affected the worst and will probably carry a certain amount of negative attitude about learning experiences most of her life as a result of it. 

The younger siblings who never knew public schooling, on the other hand, are avid learners and I almost can't feed them fast enough!  The youngest has out-distanced her twin brothers who are a year older by about two months worth of study this year alone.  Pointing this out, also illustrates another benefit of homeschooling...children are free to learn at their own speed.  I've noticed that the kids go through learning spurts much like they do physical growth spurts.  There are sometimes months or even a year where they are simply exceptional students, and then there are other times when their focus and interests are simply elsewhere.  The flexibility of homeschooling allows you as a parent to recognize these patterns of aptitude as they ebb and flow and make good use of the high points and pressure valve the lows so they don't blow a gasket, if you catch my meaning.  Public schools simply cannot accommodate that developmental reality on a individual basis as their systems cannot adjust on the fly.

Yes the more intelligent children can be more difficult over-all.  I've learned that the kids bouts of incorrigible, often coincide with their need to assert their readiness for a little more control and responsibility over their own applications and development.  These moments often make great opportunities to obtain input from them about where they desire to go with their explorations and need to express themselves or be more creative or hands on in some way.  It is not unusual to find they want to add something to what their doing or adjust into a tangent.  For example one round of hysterics over algebra revealed a deep-seated desire to understand just what you would use it for.  The rest of the day was spent running through examples of the equations used to estimate various roof designs for replacement!  That discussion stretched into examination of materials produced for the industry, and standards of measurements for different real life materials used in residential construction, notations used on blueprints, and methods of adjusting for architectural errors.  One question and answer leading avidly into another.  There are days when I think my kids would give an interrogation expert a run for his money.  Who grills better than who.

My kids are highly gregarious and gain wide swaths of mileage from topic discussion, debate, and open associative dialog where topics exchange and interrelate based on logic trails.  Not all kids benefit from that form of learning.  Some do better with quiet individual study while others crave the verbal battlefield. 

@ Moonbeam, yes we've found we spend a considerable amount of time and effort on character as well.  The world is full of contradictions which present themselves to children every day.  It's in music, on the tv, in external discussion, in literature, and just about every where you look.  The kids are continually questioning everything, and pushing the event horizon to see where the world or one of us parents flinch.  The time spent on character development is time well spent IMO.  Some day they will be adults and the difference between a truly well made choice and a poor one may depend upon the person they are at their core.  Life doesn't come with rule books or play books for every circumstance you encounter and when you come across a real stumper of a situation, that character building in your child's youth can make a real difference.

One of the great things about homeschooling for us, is the greater amount of time the kids spend living the various virtues and characteristics of our culture.  I was a public school child and know what it is like first hand to experience the duality of two ways of living that do not mesh or which openly conflict in their values and demands upon one's person.  Homeschooling for my younger three, means their exposure to that form of confusion and conflict will be more limited, which lowers their day to day stress levels and leaves more room for other things.

@ Destin

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I'm tempted to think this may actually be a bad thing, since a "mothers' love" usually implies wanting to bring safety to children and shield them from harm.  Usually results in weak offspring and socialism when mothers are baited by clever sociopaths in voting a certain way.  Women as a demographic ALWAYS vote for safety and feel good crap.  The few of you who don't are so rare as to be an insignificant number among the rest.

On this above I respectfully disagree.  I've personally known many women who believe the current run of socialists who seem to think the "round-rubber-room" method of raising children and running society, is a patently bad idea.  I actually know more militant mothers than non-passive fathers.  For some reason the majority of the RRR philosophy crowd that I've encountered were almost always males.  Could it have been just a luck of the draw?  Quite possibly.  The saving grace is that many of them came to their senses via personal experiences and children that simply refused to be caged.

My kids make other kids diagnosed as hyper, look like snails under a slow sail on a big pond.  Their creative almost to the extent of being hazardous, and I don't think a week goes by when there hasn't been a "let's compare bruise counts" in the living room with pants jacked up to their crotch to make a thorough accounting and comparison - it's one of those things where both size and depth of color brings a higher prestige.  I can tell you this, you haven't really lived till you've watched two of your children launch themselves off a hill top into open space astride a plastic snow sled above a hillside of yucca plants with enough altitude beneath them to make you wonder if the local airport will pick them up on radar.  And then there was the day they decided to gang tackle a white-tail four-point deer on the other side of some buck brush....fortune favors the foolish luckily and they'll have some awesome stories to tell their own kids some day.  I'm stoic and wry on the hi-jinx of my own childhood.  And my dad, their grandfather, made a community name for himself riding a red radio fly wagon off a garage roof.  What can I say?  It runs in the family.  Security and safety is highly over-rated.  I'm a firm believer the Round Rubber Room crowd are the only ones belonging in straight-jackets and on medication.

I'd almost bet the finest military commanders, the best authors, the most creative architects, and the exotic technology innovators of the world all have really good childhood stories to tell in their tool box.  Meanwhile the RRR crowd usually end up in cute little cubicles making some corporate executive earn his perks and bonuses for free.

Quote
I think there is something far more sinister at foot...

Yes indeed there is.  And as an analyst of over a decade in experience, I can vouch for how true that is.  One thing we do however need to bear in mind are the dualistic aspects of our paradigm.  It is not unusual for conflicting truths to co-exist based on the individuals involved and the circumstances in play.  It's like you can have good people inside a bad system and still have ineptitude and conspiracy in play at the same time personal beliefs attempt to hold the proverbial line against chaos.  Weigh and measure is a never ending chore.

Cy

Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: knobster on February 02, 2015, 06:24:41 am
<snip> Pointing this out, also illustrates another benefit of homeschooling...children are free to learn at their own speed.  I've noticed that the kids go through learning spurts much like they do physical growth spurts.  There are sometimes months or even a year where they are simply exceptional students, and then there are other times when their focus and interests are simply elsewhere.  The flexibility of homeschooling allows you as a parent to recognize these patterns of aptitude as they ebb and flow and make good use of the high points and pressure valve the lows so they don't blow a gasket, if you catch my meaning.  Public schools simply cannot accommodate that developmental reality on a individual basis as their systems cannot adjust on the fly.

+1E100
We've been homeschooling for 3 years now and notice stretches of 'interest' at least once a year.  Whenever my wife mentions that the week went really well I ask what she did and how she did it.  When the occasional crappy day hits I again ask the questions and we adjust as needed.

What amazes me is that our three children are vastly different learners.  I couldn't imagine trying to teach 20+ at a time!  No wonder so many kids are jacked up on Ritalin.  I have 5 school-aged nephews (all in public school) and each and every one is on some drug to 'calm them down' for school.  Drives me and my wife crazy.  I just know one of our daughters, who would rather cartwheel through mud puddles while holding a frog vs sitting and reading a book, would be pegged for some sort of drug.

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread: my sister has two children (ages 2 years and 3 months) and my wife is gently pushing the homeschool idea.  We've quelled the "it's too expensive" argument at least.  I hope and pray we convince her.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: FDD on February 02, 2015, 08:15:07 am
<snip> Pointing this out, also illustrates another benefit of homeschooling...children are free to learn at their own speed.  I've noticed that the kids go through learning spurts much like they do physical growth spurts.  There are sometimes months or even a year where they are simply exceptional students, and then there are other times when their focus and interests are simply elsewhere.  The flexibility of homeschooling allows you as a parent to recognize these patterns of aptitude as they ebb and flow and make good use of the high points and pressure valve the lows so they don't blow a gasket, if you catch my meaning.  Public schools simply cannot accommodate that developmental reality on a individual basis as their systems cannot adjust on the fly.

+1E100
We've been homeschooling for 3 years now and notice stretches of 'interest' at least once a year.  Whenever my wife mentions that the week went really well I ask what she did and how she did it.  When the occasional crappy day hits I again ask the questions and we adjust as needed.

What amazes me is that our three children are vastly different learners.  I couldn't imagine trying to teach 20+ at a time!  No wonder so many kids are jacked up on Ritalin.  I have 5 school-aged nephews (all in public school) and each and every one is on some drug to 'calm them down' for school.  Drives me and my wife crazy.  I just know one of our daughters, who would rather cartwheel through mud puddles while holding a frog vs sitting and reading a book, would be pegged for some sort of drug.

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread: my sister has two children (ages 2 years and 3 months) and my wife is gently pushing the homeschool idea.  We've quelled the "it's too expensive" argument at least.  I hope and pray we convince her.

Hey Bro.
Maybe offer to help her. maybe let her come over and watch a day or two.
Then when she needs to start, let her do it with you, and help get it start at her home.

Just my .02

Dawg
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: knobster on February 02, 2015, 11:13:09 am
<snip> Pointing this out, also illustrates another benefit of homeschooling...children are free to learn at their own speed.  I've noticed that the kids go through learning spurts much like they do physical growth spurts.  There are sometimes months or even a year where they are simply exceptional students, and then there are other times when their focus and interests are simply elsewhere.  The flexibility of homeschooling allows you as a parent to recognize these patterns of aptitude as they ebb and flow and make good use of the high points and pressure valve the lows so they don't blow a gasket, if you catch my meaning.  Public schools simply cannot accommodate that developmental reality on a individual basis as their systems cannot adjust on the fly.

+1E100
We've been homeschooling for 3 years now and notice stretches of 'interest' at least once a year.  Whenever my wife mentions that the week went really well I ask what she did and how she did it.  When the occasional crappy day hits I again ask the questions and we adjust as needed.

What amazes me is that our three children are vastly different learners.  I couldn't imagine trying to teach 20+ at a time!  No wonder so many kids are jacked up on Ritalin.  I have 5 school-aged nephews (all in public school) and each and every one is on some drug to 'calm them down' for school.  Drives me and my wife crazy.  I just know one of our daughters, who would rather cartwheel through mud puddles while holding a frog vs sitting and reading a book, would be pegged for some sort of drug.

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread: my sister has two children (ages 2 years and 3 months) and my wife is gently pushing the homeschool idea.  We've quelled the "it's too expensive" argument at least.  I hope and pray we convince her.

Hey Bro.
Maybe offer to help her. maybe let her come over and watch a day or two.
Then when she needs to start, let her do it with you, and help get it start at her home.

Just my .02

Dawg

An in-home visit eh?  That could be very helpful...
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Moonbeam on February 02, 2015, 07:13:04 pm
DESTIN - It could be argued that the parent who indulges their child's every wish and calls it love is an irresponsible parent. Your particular sentiment regarding love does not negate the love I have for my children. What I accomplish for my children (and husband) would be meaningless and empty if I was not motivated by love. 

CY - I don't know if you have wondered around the board, but in case you haven't just yet, I want to bring to your attention the "Home schooling" area. I hope you feel encouraged to post over there anytime. I'm guessing you have a lot to share and your contributions would be greatly welcomed!

https://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?board=20.0
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind. on February 02, 2015, 07:55:52 pm
DESTIN - It could be argued that the parent who indulges their child's every wish and calls it love is an irresponsible parent. Your particular sentiment regarding love does not negate the love I have for my children. What I accomplish for my children (and husband) would be meaningless and empty if I was not motivated by love.

CY - I don't know if you have wondered around the board, but in case you haven't just yet, I want to bring to your attention the "Home schooling" area. I hope you feel encouraged to post over there anytime. I'm guessing you have a lot to share and your contributions would be greatly welcomed!

https://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?board=20.0

Moonbeam, I'm referring to the parents who PROTECT their children from any ouchie or booboo.  They're usually government employee mindsets, even if they're just busybodies.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Moonbeam on February 03, 2015, 10:00:19 am
I'm referring to the parents who PROTECT their children from any ouchie or booboo.  They're usually government employee mindsets, even if they're just busybodies.

I am assume you mean something different than some physical wounds, however do you mind elaborating? I protect my children as much as possible from "ouchies or booboos" as much as possible because it would be irresponsible not to do so. And by no means do I believe I am of a "government employee mindset." :)
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Klapton Isgod on February 03, 2015, 10:42:58 am
I'm referring to the parents who PROTECT their children from any ouchie or booboo.  They're usually government employee mindsets, even if they're just busybodies.

I am assume you mean something different than some physical wounds, however do you mind elaborating? I protect my children as much as possible from "ouchies or booboos" as much as possible because it would be irresponsible not to do so. And by no means do I believe I am of a "government employee mindset." :)

I think you probably know someone like the people he is talking about.  These are the people who want gun free zones, forced vaccinations, home-schooling outlawed, single-payer health care, drug war...  They think parents should be charged with neglect for letting their kids do stuff that most of us here did while we were growing up.  Stuff like riding my bike alone for MILES and miles when I was only 10.  Stuff like teaching kids to shoot.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: MamaLiberty on February 03, 2015, 10:49:48 am
I am assume you mean something different than some physical wounds, however do you mind elaborating? I protect my children as much as possible from "ouchies or booboos" as much as possible because it would be irresponsible not to do so. And by no means do I believe I am of a "government employee mindset." :)

Can't speak for DF, but I suspect he means the bubble wrap PC folks who can't bear to allow their children to experience anything much beyond unicorns and rainbows through the fog of Ritalin.

Good parents want to prevent serious damage or death, of course, but the little bruises and cuts that come from a healthy childhood are necessary parts of growing up. Children need to be allowed to explore, take risks, learn from experience, being given more responsibility for their own safety as they demonstrate increasingly good judgment. Most good judgment is the product of surviving a lot of bad judgment. If they are protected from everything, they never have an opportunity to learn how to be autonomous.

I don't think you bubble wrap your children, Moonbeam. :)
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind. on February 03, 2015, 12:57:54 pm
I am assume you mean something different than some physical wounds, however do you mind elaborating? I protect my children as much as possible from "ouchies or booboos" as much as possible because it would be irresponsible not to do so. And by no means do I believe I am of a "government employee mindset." :)

Can't speak for DF, but I suspect he means the bubble wrap PC folks who can't bear to allow their children to experience anything much beyond unicorns and rainbows through the fog of Ritalin.

Good parents want to prevent serious damage or death, of course, but the little bruises and cuts that come from a healthy childhood are necessary parts of growing up. Children need to be allowed to explore, take risks, learn from experience, being given more responsibility for their own safety as they demonstrate increasingly good judgment. Most good judgment is the product of surviving a lot of bad judgment. If they are protected from everything, they never have an opportunity to learn how to be autonomous.

I don't think you bubble wrap your children, Moonbeam. :)

I couldn't help but think of this video in its entirety when you said what I bold/underlined in your comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUhOnX8qt3I



@Moonbeam. 
Yes dear, to some extent I'm actually quite annoyed when kids are protected from booboos.  Mommies get angry when the sissy kid doesn't want to climb the tree and the smart/adventurous kid is punished for not giving the sissy kid some cherries... or daddy grabs the ladder and rewards sissy kid for sissiness by getting cherries himself.

I know one set of parents, who won't let their little girl out of reach.  When I first met her, 5 years ago, the little kid was a coiled spring, she was young, she had just started being alert, her dad was mostly in charge, and the kid was eager to explore.  Now she's controlled, shy, and lacking in the confidence I saw in her as a kid, she's the shy kid in the group, without initiative.  The rest of the kids start games, show initiative, she... always looks for approval.  (And she's not the only homeschooled kid in the bunch, either.)  Kid can't go around the side of the truck without the parents calling her name.  When playing with other kids and left to her own devices, she lacks initiative, and looks behind her for parental approval (just like a dog, expecting the leash to be pulled hard.)  4th of July Sparklers... egads.  (Meanwhile I was teaching my friends kids how to sequentially fuse half dozen or more mortars... but we ran out of extra fuse before class was done.  We put many commercial folks final products to shame with the finalized cluster launchers (we had a nice 2 hour show in a neighborhood area the size of a small strip mall on the east coast... and most importantly HAD FUN.  That little kid was barely allowed to touch sparklers.  Pretty weak.)

That sort of overprotectiveness breeds weak contemptible people, who will later always expect others to do their hard, heavy lifting for them.  In the end, by outnumbering those of us who had guts, and cultivated skill, we get outvoted, outmatched and overwhelmed by the weaklings.

That's why even protecting them from booboos is a bad deal.  You protect them from life destroying booboos (rapists, child slavers, etc) and even there, you teach THEM to avoid rapists and child slavers, just like you should teach them to look both ways before crossing the road and stay alert while crossing.  I imagine your goal in homeschooling is to make your kids exemplars of skill and talent, not neuter every possible threat around them.  Evil will always exist, and keeping them safe instead of letting them learn will breed weak, contemptible easily subverted adults.  Even if you live forever, you will not be able to protect them forever.  It goes against your mommy instincts, but this is why daddy's are there.  You want to protect them from everything that hurts.  Dad should be the guy who lets them burn their hand on the stove.  Its a very valuable learning experience for the majority.


@Klapton

Yes, I was actually referring to the people who vote to neuter perceived threats to the point that the kid can't get a scratch while cutting a wire, or they outlaw sharp points and wire cutters.
Or you find a lost kid in a store, nobody on aisles nearby, you ask him if he's lost and offer to take him to the nearest cash register to call his parents, (you don't touch the kid of course, this is America, of course, and everyone's scared to death of being accused of anything bad to do with kids) and then halfway to the nearest register, mommy shows up distraught, irate, and giving you a look like you kidnapped the kid she's left alone.
After that you never help another lost kid again.  You see'em, see the look of confusion and say, "tough luck kid," shrug your shoulders and walk on, with a feeling of satisfaction you shouldn't have gotten while abandoning someone in obvious distress.  Sometimes when I feel extra generous I'll find a store representative, take them there, and say "that kid looks lost."  Far be it for me to get involved in that kind of thing ever again.  Every good or kind man I know has a story similar to mine.  It hardens us against the plight of our fellow man, and overprotective mommies with untrained chilren are the blame.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Moonbeam on February 03, 2015, 01:10:23 pm
Quote
It goes against your mommy instincts, but this is why daddy's are there.  You want to protect them from everything that hurts.  Dad should be the guy who lets them burn their hand on the stove.  Its a very valuable learning experience for the majority.

Well, if you meant "you" as in me, Moonbeam, thanks for the hearty laugh! [You don't know Moonbeam!] If you meant a general you, I disagree. In this day and age I know more weenie dads than moms.
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: Cyrellys on February 05, 2015, 08:21:35 pm
Well this is a fascinating social dance to observe between the group here. I must say though, with a a touch of wistful pondering, it must be truly nice to have children who need protecting rather than the other way around.  I've only traveled this road 17 years and I've already lost count of how many hapless visitors or unwitting public personages I've had to rescue from mine.  Almost had to save a theoretical photographer from assault by channel changer once, arrived on scene just in time to catch my red-head eldest in a perfect impersonation of incredible hulk just because he walked up and asked the younger siblings playing in the yard where to find me.  And a couple self-accommodating metal scrappers who first thought no one was home came within an inch of getting lambasted with roofing mastic and sheeting tacks applied via sling shot.  It's hard to know there's someone offering themselves up as potential victims when I'm downstairs doing laundry or blissfully grabbing a moment to take a midday shower, lol.  Fortunately I live out in the middle of nowhere-ville and so unexpected encounters are relatively few.  I"m afraid my scheming mob are rather territorial and the umbrella culture who is always going on about this threat or that threat, and that psychopath or the half-related sociopath next cubby hole over from the former, reinforces the idea that two inches inside the door jam, complete strangers are fair game.  Am I the only household in Montana with a BEWARE OF CHILDREN sign on the driveway gate instead of the traditional dog version?

Cy   
Title: Re: So, you think you can't afford to homeschool?
Post by: MamaLiberty on February 06, 2015, 05:32:55 am
I hear you, Cyrellys. LOL Brings back memories. My "baby" is now 47 years old, and his brother turns 50 this spring... but ah, the memories. Relatives called them the "US Wrecking Team" for a very good reason. We lived out on a little homestead type farm several miles from the city, which helped a lot. :)