The Mental Militia Forums

Tyranny in a Police State => ID Issues => Topic started by: Claire on May 12, 2005, 10:53:34 pm

Title: ID Resist
Post by: Claire on May 12, 2005, 10:53:34 pm
All right, guys. The Agitator forum is usually not my hangout. But it's time to strategize ...

We need to create an ID Resistance movement/network. It needs to be a resource center for actions people can take against Real ID and similar stuff. And it needs to break way out of the libertarian movement.

It needs to offer strategies (and an idea exchange) to people who think in terms of new-left style civil disobedience, quiet Mole-ish non-cooperation, and flat "Hell no, I won't" resistance. Big tent. Something for everybody, to encourage everybody to know they can fight this.

If Real ID isn't repealed, we need to have such a network in action before we're fatally ID'd and so it's already in action to help people make their decisions.

Many questions: What's the best way to do this and what are some resistance strategies that might appeal to people who wouldn't be caught on the same planet as suijurisfreeman or Delos?

Couple of thoughts: A "comply-in" where instead of bringing in the required four ID documents, they bring huge folders full of their grade school report cards, etc. and dawdle at the DMV counter going through it all. And for the more radical types, a kind of services directory of businesses that will help people who can't show ID.

Your thoughts?
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Misfit on May 13, 2005, 12:40:50 am
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...that might appeal to people who wouldn't be caught on the same planet as suijurisfreeman or Delos?

What? You mean Suijuris and Delos are on THIS planet?  :blink:


My initial thoughts...
Do everything to call attention to it and how UN-AMERICAN it is (since everyone seems so patriotic now days). We know we won't get into the media, so we would have to get out and beat the streets. Flyers on cars, signs in lawns, T-shirts, bumperstickers. This stuff would have to be eye catching...Bar Codes, Uncle Sam tattooing numbers on citizens, "Don't worry, it only stings for the first few decades.", "Got ID?", Govt workers gossiping about citizen's private info, etc.

Stage protests outside DMVs to try to keep people from getting the IDs. Get lots of people to go in and take those stupid numbers they give you in the waiting room, really clog up the works..."opps, I forgot my papers" or other nuisances.

We definitely need to be networking, so that we won't be cut off from essentials. A directory of services is a good idea. There may have to be some kind of referral system for that to keep it safe guarded.

I'll have to chew on it more...

 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Joel on May 13, 2005, 12:48:54 am
Agitation is even less my field than yours, Claire.  But I agree that this is important.

Websites all over the place, fer shur.  In fact it would be interesting to open a site just for encouraging ideas, and advertise it on all the lefty forums.  They do incrementalism better than we do, and might come up with some delicious ideas for monkeywrenching.

Tim Osman had some interesting ideas a few months ago about guerilla advertising; this is a page we could swipe from the leftists.  Big signs on freeway overpasses, that sort of thing.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on May 13, 2005, 01:40:52 am
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Do everything to call attention to it and how UN-AMERICAN it is (since everyone seems so patriotic now days). We know we won't get into the media, so we would have to get out and beat the streets. Flyers on cars, signs in lawns, T-shirts, bumperstickers. This stuff would have to be eye catching...Bar Codes, Uncle Sam tattooing numbers on citizens, "Don't worry, it only stings for the first few decades.", "Got ID?", Govt workers gossiping about citizen's private info, etc.
 
How about a rubber stamp (which can be used in all SORTS of places :-) with "Your papers please!" and maybe a swatstika or similar on it?

Something along those lines,  anyhow...

That'd get some agitation going,  for sure.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Misfit on May 13, 2005, 02:23:47 am
I like the same slogan everywhere thing, but watch the swatstikas...people see them, assume it's a neo-nazi group and throw it away without reading it. There is a white supremacist group here in Vegas putting up billboards and sticking flyers on cars. I could see people confusing the two.

I'm probably an agitator at heart...at least that's what all my friends and family would say. I just have an aversion to being shot at or involuntarily disappearing. :ph34r: How about extra large "Claire Wolfe Time" T-Shirts to wear over body armor? (I still think the wrist watch is a snazzy idea.)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Augustwest on May 13, 2005, 08:58:22 am
I know it goes against the spirit of 101 + 78 Things, but for those who are so inclined, and in states where it might actually work, contacting state reps, governors, etc and letting them know this ain't acceptable is worth thinking about IMO.

Noncompliance at the level of both individuals and the several states is the only thing that has a whisper of a chance of stopping this, m'thinks.

And Claire, I agree on the idea of referrals as far as any kind of services directory. Moles won't last long unless their identities are strongly protected.
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on May 13, 2005, 09:46:40 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: merlin419 on May 13, 2005, 10:26:08 am
I like the bilboard idea and have a suggestion. I think the swastika would be negative for the movement but a forearm with the death camp ID number tatooed on might bring a better response. I am going to start more searches on the net for info on this subject. I do think this brainstorming part will be very important for all of us. This might need to become a forum page of it's own. Easier for stopper bys to find and particapaite.  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Claire on May 13, 2005, 10:29:04 am
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Big signs on freeway overpasses, that sort of thing.
There's also a billboard on I-5 between Centralia and Chehalis that's got political commentary on it (both sides, so it grabs north and southbound traffic).  The guy who owns it died several months back, but I drove past there a couple of weeks ago, and it's still got its usual messages on it, so someone must have take up the cause.  Wonder if it might be worth trying to find out who owns it, and asking them if they might put something up.
I believe the famous billboard is owned by Hamilton Farms and currently maintained by the guy's son. (http://isaac.blogs.com/isaac_laquedem/2004/11/alfred_uncle_sa.html) Very John Birchy stuff, though. They might like national ID. Keep out the Messicans, you know ...

Still, that board does get a lot of views. Couldn't hurt to ask.

Some good ideas here.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 13, 2005, 11:27:32 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: NuclearDruid on May 13, 2005, 11:39:06 am
I read this book a few years back. Papers Please!: Identity Documents, Permits and Authorizations of the Third Reich (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0910667365/qid=1116002164/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/104-0349991-8346318?v=glance&s=books) There were a tons of photos in it. Maybe the authors could be persuaded to license some their images. A picture speaks a thousand words.

ND
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 13, 2005, 12:08:14 pm
Radio or TV commercials featuring ordinary folks stopped at the airport, stopped at the bank, stopped at the dmv, stopped at the grocery store, stopped on the street because they got through an internal checkpoint somewhere, stopped any place the NID would come in handy.  Make it simple but show the frustration, and get to the point.  We'd have to make it clear to people that yes, it is really happening, it's law, it's happening fast and everywhere.  I've talked to many people over the last few days and it's stunning how many people know about it because of the ties to the funding of the war/troops, but just accept it and proceed with being sheep.  I'd stay away from anything that is nazi/hitler for the time being too, as the people are trained to reject that stuff immediately.  It's one thing to watch a History Channel documentary on Hitler because that's a safe place to show what a devil he was.  It's another matter to throw it in a brainwashed publics face.  Show the facts but keep it simple and play to real emotions that the ordinary sheep would feel daily.  


Love the idea of billboards and peppering the streets with pictures and flyers, I bet with an army consisting of the people just on this board, we could get a message out if we worked hard enough.  

So many threads about this, guess I'll find one and stay with it.


Peace and Good Day
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 13, 2005, 12:31:22 pm
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Purely as a matter of strategy, I'd avoid most Nazi/concentration camp/Hitler/etc... references because that's a good way to piss people off (at you, not at the government, that is) and/or get classified as a nutjob. ...
I'd like to second this motion. Nazis are bad people who say "Achtung!" and "Schnell!" and kill Jews. The US gov't doesn't do any of the above, therefore they can't be Nazis, therefore if you say they are, you are a nutcase.

I'm not too excited about billboards and flyers, but then I am so sick of advertising that I tend to blot all of it out of my field of vision. To get my attention, an ad would have to be witty, concise, and not polemical.

How about just a photo of a face with a barcode tattooed across the forehead, and the words "Real ID" next to it, and nothing else? Well, maybe that's too polemical.

It would be nice to have something that's the inverse of the SEP Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEP_field). I suppose that's the purpose of publicity/advertising, much as I loathe it.

I like word-of-mouth, myself. What I need is a good way to politely reply to people who think this is no big deal, just an incremental improvement in government efficiency.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: securitysix on May 13, 2005, 01:28:48 pm
A little something I threw together in MSPaint with a few minutes of spare time:  http://www.geocities.com/securitysix/realid.htm (http://www.geocities.com/securitysix/realid.htm)

You'll notice some of the words seem to appear out of nowhere or disappear into nothingness.  I did that on purpose and that helps show the edge of the actual .jpg file.

It's weak and lame, but anyone is welcome to borrow, use, steal, tweak, and otherwise mangle it as you wish.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mac the Knife on May 13, 2005, 02:04:58 pm
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How about just a photo of a face with a barcode tattooed across the forehead, and the words "Real ID" next to it, and nothing else? Well, maybe that's too polemical.
Is this (http://www.topsecretcrypto.com/AboutUS.htm) what you had in mind?  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Bill St. Clair on May 13, 2005, 02:24:26 pm
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How about just a photo of a face with a barcode tattooed across the forehead, and the words "Real ID" next to it, and nothing else? Well, maybe that's too polemical.
Is this (http://www.topsecretcrypto.com/AboutUS.htm) what you had in mind?
Well, Zero Knowledge Systems (http://www.zeroknowledge.com/) appears to have morphed into Radialpoint (http://www.radialpoint.com/), and changed their flavor to such a point that maybe nobody will care if you use their old marketing images. I sure like that one.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 13, 2005, 04:03:25 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: NMC_EXP on May 13, 2005, 06:03:31 pm
For starters I would settle for (1) information on how to deactivate magnetic strips and embedded chips in ID cards, and (2) an effective way to alter or mask fingerprints before putting my thumb on the card (or reader).

Fooling retinal scans will of course be a problem.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 13, 2005, 07:08:27 pm
information on how to deactivate magnetic strips:

This will surely be legislated as a crime as with the new passports and one might risk losing his or her NID, bummer.  As soon as a JBT swipes it and determines it was done to deceive the beloved gov., they will arrest.  All I can say about it here is- make it look like it wasn't done intentionally.  

Fingerprints- unless there is some magical way to do it without scarring the finger for life I know of no effective way to do it consistantly.  Superglue and Nuskin may work for entering into a supermarket or bank database for payment or check cashing, but most any LE will inspect the fingers before printing.  DMV's can be tricked as of today but how will it be explained when you have to renew the NID?  If  scarring or burning the prints, make sure it goes 2 layers or more deep and make sure this is the print that is kept for life as scars create a new, unique print.  Unless you can create a viable print method that will last until you find a way to escape this tyranny, it's almost pointless to try and I don't think most people can afford to "go Hollywood" and hire an expert.  Of course this is just my humble opinion.

Just some thoughts about it all, no harm or deception intended!

Peace and Good Day
Title: ID Resist
Post by: rockchucker on May 13, 2005, 09:32:21 pm
Just FYI, Here's comments from Bruce Schneier (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/05/real_id.html), and links to some of his other writings. He maintains that it's a bad idea, and a security fallacy. Verbal ammunition, from a guy who really knows his stuff.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Delos on May 13, 2005, 11:48:33 pm

Well, I guess if there are really people who would prefer not to be caught on the same planet as me and suijuris, they have failed!

:o  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: rockchucker on May 14, 2005, 08:37:14 am
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Well, I guess if there are really people who would prefer not to be caught on the same planet as me and suijuris, they have failed!

:o
Oh, I'm on the same planet alright, just in a parallel universe.  :blink:  B)  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: rockchucker on May 14, 2005, 08:54:40 am
Just in case I'm not the last one here to notice it  :D Sunni has set up Real ID Rebellion (http://realidrebellion.blogspot.com/).
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on May 14, 2005, 06:14:22 pm
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Just in case I'm not the last one here to notice it  :D Sunni has set up Real ID Rebellion (http://realidrebellion.blogspot.com/).
She did a hell of a job there,  too.  Stuff I'd seen before and stuff I hadn't.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on May 14, 2005, 08:57:36 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 15, 2005, 04:57:05 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: PaineOfThought on May 16, 2005, 12:09:09 am
I have also searched for info on deactivating imbedded chips and magnetic strips and have come up short.  Either what I find is way to complicated (techwise) for me to understand or it is uselessley vague.  I would love to find some practical info.

BTW, way back I bought an eel skin wallet in Hawaii and it came with an insert card that said not to store credit cards in the wallet because the magnetic strip could be messed up.  Sure enough about 6 months later my atm card stopped working.  A trip into the bank branch revealed that the magnetic strip, while not erased, was damaged to a point that the machines couldn't read enough complete data to use it.

I think deactivating the info is a great monkeywrench.  Just play dumb.  "Officer. I don't even own a cell phone.  I don't know what you mean by magnetic strip distortion.  Please tell me where I can take my card to get re-issued and I'll go first chance I get."
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 16, 2005, 10:04:37 am
I've seen people sand them down and scuff them a bit- normal wear and tear style-, then go to someone who works at Borders or a supermarket and have them put it on the mangnetic plate and while they step on the pedal for a while and it seemed to work on dl's.  I'm not sure how strong the newer versions will be though.  They would make it look like they innocently left the dl on the plate with other things and the employee would turn the magnet up full power.

It would seem a very powerful magnet of any sort can cause damage.  In fact employees would be trained to watch for people's credit cards and dl's on the plate to avoid erasing them.

Peace and Good Day
Title: ID Resist
Post by: sagas4 on May 16, 2005, 11:27:52 am
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All right, guys. The Agitator forum is usually not my hangout. But it's time to strategize ...

[snip . . .]

Many questions: What's the best way to do this and what are some resistance strategies that might appeal to people who wouldn't be caught on the same planet as suijurisfreeman or Delos?

[snip . . . ]

Your thoughts?
Hey I use to live there. My parents refused to get any paperwork on me when they brought me to this planet.

In the indescretion of my youth I went and registered myself and regreted it for the last 25 earth years.

Anyone know where I can get some tickets back home?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is an idea. How bout those of us who do not use aircraft or trains just don't get one.

I also read somewhere that Montana has already rejected it. I didn't really plan on moving but
it's looking like a better option all the time.  

 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on May 16, 2005, 03:13:58 pm
There's one set of people who this will not effect and I wonder how the gumint is going to handle them. Who am I talking about? Why the Amish ofcourse. They are not allowed to operate cars. Will they have to get ID cards for their horses? :lol:

BTW I believe they also don't have SS numbers or regular bank accounts like us.

Cat
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 16, 2005, 05:00:32 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: kbarrett on May 16, 2005, 05:42:50 pm
This act has one achillies heel ....

It depends on states rolling over and complying.

Many states still have initiative petition laws....


Maybe something as simple as forbidding biometric info and RFIDs in licenses ... and requiring that state to accept other state licenses anyway, regardless of if that state complies with the feds.


The feds have unwittingly created two classes of DLs and states. Dred Scott is upon us again.

Slave states that comply, and free states that do not.


Try to make sure your current state remains a free state.
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: securitysix on May 16, 2005, 06:00:59 pm
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-get a job (certain identification needed for the company to satisfy immigration law requirements)

Find someone who buys and fixes up houses for sale or rent.  They can usually use a hand with roofing, drywalling, electrical, cleanup, and all sorts of other stuff.  A lot of them pay cash and don't require ID.

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-open a financial account (it has been so long since I did this- is identification required for this, or would it be under the new rules?

OK, you got me on this one.  I have no idea how to monkey wrench this one.  The only way around it I know of is to not deal with checks.  Cash, barter, and precious metals only.  I've known people who distrust banks so much that they wouldn't have a checking account and would carry the entirety of their paychecks with them.  If you're going to do this, though, getting mugged has higher risks of losing your dough.

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-get a passport

If you never leave the country, this shouldn't actually be an issue.  There might be a workaround for this, at least for some people, though:

"To obtain a passport for the first time, you need to go in person to one of 6,000 passport acceptance facilities located throughout the United States with two photographs of yourself, proof of U.S. citizenship, and a valid form of photo identification such as a driver’s license."

Note that it says "such as".  Student IDs, FOID cards, CCW permits, might work.  Also:

If none of these are available , you will need:

   1. Some signature documents, not acceptable alone as ID

    (ex: a combination of documents, such as your Social Security card, credit card, bank card, library card, etc.)

    AND

   2. A person who can vouch for you. He/she must

        * Have known you for at least 2 years,
        * Be a U.S. citizen or permanent resident,
        * Have valid ID, and
        * Fill out a Form DS-71 in the presence of a passport agent.



Workaround.  Neat!  By the way, link (http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html).

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-get cold medicine (pseudoephedrine being on the verge of going behind the counter with ID and registration required to get it)

Um...don't buy cold medicine?  :)  OK, some people just won't be able to stand being without something for their cold.  Tylenol and lots of Vitamin C will help.  I usually use Nyquil if it's so bad that I have to take something (Dayquil if I don't have anything to do, it makes me sleepy).  Also, natural remedies do work for some people, so you might look into those.

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-get a cashier's check (for example, if I wanted to buy a house)

Dunno if they'll take a money order for buying a house, but I've never been asked for ID to get one.  Of course, most money orders can't be had for more than $1000, so carrying 20 money orders in to make the down payment for your house might look kind of silly.  See if they'll take a student ID instead of a driver's license.  Maybe a library card or even a social insecurity card in combination with a credit card or something like that.  There are some people out there who don't have driver's licenses, but I have a feeling they still manage to get cashier's checks.  Ask one of them how they manage to get around that.

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-get a mortgage (was ID really required when I did that, or did I just give that up too easily) or rent a place

Again, alternate forms of ID will usually be accepted if you don't have a driver's license.  Remember, some people can't or don't drive.  There's bound to be alternate forms of ID accepted somewhere along the line.  Birth certificate + social insecurity card + a witness or something.  If you can get a passport using the above exceptions, you could probably use it, but passports are likely to be chipped in the near future, too.

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-make certain firearms purchases

Don't buy from licensed dealers and buy ammo at the gun shows or a shop where you're already a regular.  You may not get the handiest, dandiest guns out there, and you will wind up buying guns that have had a previous owner or two, but that's not always a bad thing.

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-get a pilot's license

Ultralights.  As I understand, no license is needed for planes that fall under the ultralight category.

 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 16, 2005, 06:07:16 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: LawyerZeke on May 16, 2005, 06:43:48 pm
I was thinking of this the other night...they haven't moved *yet* to toughen up the requirements for a pilot's license. True, the new Sport Pilot provision lets you use a valid DL in lieu of a medical certificate, but you could do the medical instead.

   More interesting, to me, is that flying is actually much less regulated in many areas. I was discussing that very thing with an old outlaw in my office today. His take is that locally at least, nobody is ever going to ask if you have license--or insurance, or an up-to-date annual or logbook or nuthin'. Additionally, there are lots of hayfields around here to fly out of if the local strip comes under scrutiny. I have enough room at my hideout to cat out a nice little strip with nobody the wiser.

  There are an amazing number of aircraft that can be homebuilt without any government involvement at all. It can be done from plans or in kit form. Plans are cheaper, but require more skills. On the bright side, with plans nobody tracks what you're doing--especially if you buy up a set from someone who has given up on their pipe-dream. Many of these can be flown on converted automobile engines (VW, Subaru, Corvair) or motorcycle engines (Kaw, HD). The most common engine for light homebuilts is the Rotax, which is basically the Bombardier snowmobile engine. Lots of them available on the used market, too.

  As far as ultra-lights go, there are a lot of "fat" UL's out there. UL trainers are two seat. Yeah, they aren't legal. And?

  All in all, I think flying is a very doable option.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on May 16, 2005, 08:26:26 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on May 17, 2005, 04:15:27 am
There were many potential threads in which to place this post. Here will do.

I just finished reading 'Government' Is PEOPLE! (http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/reynolds/reynolds5.html) by Mark Reynolds at STR. What an ass kickin' romp of a read.
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Who do they think they are to try to issue me numbers to be able to go about my personal business? Who do they think they are to want to issue me an INTERNAL PASSPORT so that I can travel about doing my own daily personal chores? I want to know WHY any of us put up with this crap. Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe what we all need to do is when it is time to renew our driver's licenses, which have been turned into de facto federal internal passports, we should just drive with EXPIRED licenses. And if a few million of us do it, or even a few hundred thousand, what are they going to do? LOCK US ALL UP? STEAL ALL OF OUR CARS? I told my wife I am going to fill the back yard up with $300 cars so that they can steal them all they want.   

I say tell them all to go to hell. Any time a total stranger wants to know ANYTHING about you, ask them why you should give them the time of day. Make them arrest us all. Refuse to let them have fingerprints. Make them drag you everywhere. Frankly, tell them to drop dead. We don't owe them ANYTHING. I wasn't put on this earth to be some tyrant's doormat.   

To quote the words of Billy the Kid in the movie “Young Guns,” . . . "You can go to HELL HELL HELL."
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 17, 2005, 08:29:06 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: NuclearDruid on May 17, 2005, 10:52:15 am
Found this nifty little web-based barcode generator. Free Online Barcode Generator (http://www.barcodesinc.com/generator/index.php) Generated a barcode for "Real ID" and took a few minutes to manipulate it with Photoshop. Voila, New Avatar!

ND
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 17, 2005, 11:52:24 am
I wasn't satisfied with any of the anti-Real-ID info sites I've seen so far, so I made my own:

"The Real ID Act: Real Problems" (http://web.newsguy.com/whoareyou/Real-ID.htm)

I have intentionally written it in very calm, non-inflammatory language. My target audience is people who consider themselves rational, middle-of-the-road sorts, who hardly ever get excited about anything political. Rabble-rousing calls-to-arms will not work on folks like this.

I'd appreciate any suggestions for improvement.  Thanks.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Claire on May 17, 2005, 12:18:07 pm
Very well done, Mr. Bill. The message as you state it could wake up many people who might not respond to some of our (and some of my  :rolleyes: ) flaming "I resist!" rhetoric. I have no suggestions. Any site fighting national ID would do well to link to yours.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: securitysix on May 17, 2005, 01:01:33 pm
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RFID crack raises spector of weak encryption  (http://www.computerworld.com/printthis/2005/0,4814,100459,00.html)

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In January, the researchers published the results of a technical analysis of a kind of secure radio frequency identification (RFID) technology called Digital Signature Transponder (DST) from Texas Instruments Inc., which is widely used to secure newer-generation automobiles and electronic payment systems like Exxon Mobil Corp.'s Speedpass. The work revealed serious weaknesses in the cryptographic security used to protect data sent back and forth, and shines a light on the problem of security systems that rely on aging or inadequate cryptography, according to experts.

...

Rubin and a team of three graduate students, along with cryptography experts from RSA, used reverse-engineering techniques and custom-designed tools to crack the cryptographic keys used to secure the systems and simulate both the RFID DST tags and readers. The hack allowed researchers to disable a vehicle immobilizer in a 2005 Ford automobile using a specially equipped laptop computer, and purchase gas at a number of Exxon Mobil locations with a homemade Speedpass device, according to a copy of their findings posted online.
This got me thinking about the possibility that, rather than trying to trick the readers or disable the card, perhaps it would be possible to hack into the RFID chip and use a random identity generator to reprogram it every so often?  Since it doesn't sound like once the ID is issued, people question the validity of the information on it (at least, not right away).  Cops, stores, banks, etc. will likely assume the information was checked for validity - I mean, you did have to do everything but piss in a cup to get the damn thing in the first place.
If this were doable, another option might be to hack into the RFID and replace their encryption with your own but never touch the data.  They couldn't, technically, arrest you for falsifying the data if you never change it.  All you would have done would be to make the data unreadable to anyone who doesn't know the password to your algorithm.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on May 17, 2005, 04:17:46 pm
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There were many potential threads in which to place this post. Here will do.

I just finished reading 'Government' Is PEOPLE! (http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/reynolds/reynolds5.html) by Mark Reynolds at STR. What an ass kickin' romp of a read.
Quote
...
Who do they think they are to try to issue me numbers to be able to go about my personal business? Who do they think they are to want to issue me an INTERNAL PASSPORT so that I can travel about doing my own daily personal chores? I want to know WHY any of us put up with this crap. Maybe we shouldn't. Maybe what we all need to do is when it is time to renew our driver's licenses, which have been turned into de facto federal internal passports, we should just drive with EXPIRED licenses. And if a few million of us do it, or even a few hundred thousand, what are they going to do? LOCK US ALL UP? STEAL ALL OF OUR CARS? I told my wife I am going to fill the back yard up with $300 cars so that they can steal them all they want.   

I say tell them all to go to hell. Any time a total stranger wants to know ANYTHING about you, ask them why you should give them the time of day. Make them arrest us all. Refuse to let them have fingerprints. Make them drag you everywhere. Frankly, tell them to drop dead. We don't owe them ANYTHING. I wasn't put on this earth to be some tyrant's doormat.   

To quote the words of Billy the Kid in the movie “Young Guns,” . . . "You can go to HELL HELL HELL."
Dang,  I've gotta start getting over there more often...

(Like I've got the TIME! :-)

From poking around his other writings,  I found this:

Quote
Today, we're all going to learn a new term
It's only two words, now listen closely
Can all of you say . . .
Constructive Fraud?

Did you ever get the feelin'
as your stairin' at the ceilin'
That this game of life we play ain't fair?
Seems as fast as we can make it
there's a hand that grabs and takes it
Till they plant us in a grave somewhere
Like a rodent on a treadmill,
we keep pushin' for it up hill
But we never seem to get to far
Well if you think you're bein' taken
Then you’re ready to awaken
to the truth of what we really are

We're all indentured,
servitudal slaves over burdened
and bewildered feudal knaves
Who have lost our soul posterity
through ignorance and apathy
And now we're bein' taxed out of our graves
And as long as we stay passive we'll succumb
Contented with some socialistic crumb
Well, the naked truth and fact is,
we're all saps who pay our taxes
And that is why the Banksters keep us dumb

Could the state of our condition
be the product of omission
What we didn't learn in public schools?
And did our Fathers all through history
all fight and die for liberty
So we could play the tyrants’ fools?
And can you call it education
when it's all indoctrination
To obey the hidden powers that be
Did we fight the revolution,
did we win the world wars
Just to slumber into slavery?

We're all indentured servitutal slaves
Over burdened and bewildered feudal knaves
Who have lost our soul posterity,
through ignorance and apathy
And now we're bein' taxed out of our graves
And as long as we stay passive we'll succumb
Contented with some humanistic crumb
Well the naked truth and fact is
we're all saps who pay those taxes
And that is why the Banksters keep us dumb

While Franklin and Eleanor
were tellin' us they hated war
They made a deal behind our backs
They said the bankers could enslave us
for a portion of our wages
And today we call it income tax
But what they failed then to tell us
was the way they planned to sell us
Into statutory slavery
Now it's called constructive fraud
some even claim the wrath of God
I call it social insecurity

Let's stop bein' indentured servitudal slaves
Over burdened and bewildered feudal knaves
and reclaim our lost posterity
Rise up and proclaim liberty
it's high time we rocked the boat
and make some waves
'Cause as long as we stay passive we'll succumb
they'll starve us on their communistic crumb
And the naked truth and fact is
we don't have to pay those taxes
Yes it's time we showed those the Banksters
those international gangsters
So let's turn the tables and spoil all their fun

That's all!

:-)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: thistle on May 17, 2005, 07:19:37 pm
Quote
I have been giving serious thought to just not getting one. However, it's not just about flying and trains. I'm thinking about how I could do the following (or if I would simply have to do without):

-get a job (certain identification needed for the company to satisfy immigration law requirements)

-open a financial account (it has been so long since I did this- is identification required for this, or would it be under the new rules?)

-get a passport

-get cold medicine (pseudoephedrine being on the verge of going behind the counter with ID and registration required to get it)

-get a cashier's check (for example, if I wanted to buy a house)

-get a mortgage (was ID really required when I did that, or did I just give that up too easily) or rent a place

-make certain firearms purchases

-get a pilot's license

What else belongs on this list?
What legal workarounds are there for each of these items?


To tack on one more to that list...what about driving?

Maintaining a low profile is a great practice...but it's nearly certain that one day you'll be asked to produce your license for some reason or other (be it taillight, speeding, or checkpoint). And for some of us who refuse to get this new driver's license...jail is a nasty thing.

And I don't mean for myself. The bastards can put me in a cell for a  while and that'll be fine by me. But not everyone can do that. Some women might find that a very high price to pay. So might some men :o .  My fiance has said that she won't get a National ID if I won't. But I hate to think of some jabbut pulling her over and cuffin her up.

Other than keeping that low profile on the road, the only other thing I can think of is maybe a AAA bail bond or something. Anyone else have a suggestion for driving without a license?

 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 17, 2005, 09:59:56 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: PaineOfThought on May 17, 2005, 10:26:56 pm
The International DL sounded very interesting so I looked it up.

Unfortunately, in reality it sounds more like global Real ID.

http://www.idl-international.com/ (http://www.idl-international.com/)

quote: The IDL offers authentic international translations of pertinent passport and personal data to foreign officials.

 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: thistle on May 17, 2005, 10:30:04 pm
Don't know about Canadian DL, but Claire wrote an article at WND (http://www.theclairefiles.com/Columns/WND/article39.htm?ARTICLE_ID=14109) mentioning the International DL.  www.idl-international.com (http://www.idl-international.com) was the site she recommended.

Not to disparge Claire or anything, but up until I read that article I always wrote those sites off as scams.

Actually (after quick a google), snopes.com has it listed under scams.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/license.asp (http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/license.asp)

Quote
An International Driving Permit (not an "International Driver's License," which is what most of the scam ads claim to be peddling) is essentially a booklet containing translations of the information found on your "real" driver's license into  eleven different languages (including English, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, German, Arabic, Italian, and Portuguese). In accordance with several United Nations conventions on road safety, most U.N. member nations have agreed to recognize and accept IDPs. (Some countries require foreign drivers to have IDPs, some prefer but don't require them, and some don't require them at all.) The IDP is not a license in itself, however — it is merely a translation of your existing driver's license, and it must be used in conjunction with your existing driver's license.

Sounds like IDL's aren't any good for changing your identity or an alternative to your regular driver's license. IMO
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Dave Polaschek on May 18, 2005, 09:43:55 am
I've found it much more effective in conversations to compare REAL-ID to the internal passports required in the Soviet bloc than to anything done in Nazi Germany.

It helps that there are a lot of eastern europeans around here who are familiar with the Cold-War-era Soviet security apparatus, and were already a little dubious about the new national ID. When I point out that you can't drive, ride Amtrak, Greyhound, or an airplane without a DL today, and with this new law, there's a mandated national ID, I get thoughtful looks.

I figure we've got roughly a year to fight this thing before states start issuing upgraded IDs, maybe less. And two and change to shut it down before its completely implemented. Time to start moving, and I think some sort of effective logo/picture that doesn't invoke either the Nazis or the Birchers (and barcode-related things do that around here) needs to happen soon.

There's also the section of H.R. 418 (Real ID) would require the Secretary of Homeland Security to waive any and all laws that he determines necessary, in his sole discretion, to ensure the expeditious construction of barriers and roads...

The upshot? It allows SecDHS to trump any laws that get in the way of building a barrier on the border near San Diego. Maybe something that evokes the Berlin Wall would be an effective bit of propaganda, especially when combined with comparisons of the new mandated ID to an internal passport.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: TheGrayMan on May 18, 2005, 09:46:59 am
Sorry if this is a dupe.

I found this interesting especially since I found the link while "skimming" through site that is pretty friendly to our current state of (Big) Brotherhood.


http://www.alternet.org/rights/21977/ (http://www.alternet.org/rights/21977/)



 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: securitysix on May 18, 2005, 10:27:34 am
Quote
Sorry if this is a dupe.

I found this interesting especially since I found the link while "skimming" through site that is pretty friendly to our current state of (Big) Brotherhood.


http://www.alternet.org/rights/21977/ (http://www.alternet.org/rights/21977/)
Quote
But my primary objection isn't the totalitarian potential of national IDs, nor the likelihood that they'll create a whole immense new class of social and economic dislocations. Nor is it the opportunities they will create for colossal boondoggles by government contractors. My objection to the national ID card, at least for the purposes of this essay, is much simpler.

It won't work. It won't make us more secure.

After reading this, I propose we use Benjamin Franklin as a gulch power source.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: suijurisfreeman on May 18, 2005, 12:53:10 pm
Ultimately it will come down to just saying hell no!   Actually it's rather easy, say it with me, HELL NO!   :P  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 18, 2005, 01:38:06 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Claire on May 18, 2005, 03:53:12 pm
Quote
Not to disparge Claire or anything, but up until I read that article I always wrote those sites off as scams.
These licenses/permits are real things ... but being marketed with scammish, misleading claims.

Thing is ... at the time I wrote the article, some folks who stood their ground were winning in court when they had nothing but an IDL/IDP. Doubt they could now, as the police, lawyers, and judges are more aware.

Don't worry about disparaging me. When I'm wrong, everybody's better off (including me) if you correct me.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 18, 2005, 06:30:27 pm
Quote
I wasn't satisfied with any of the anti-Real-ID info sites I've seen so far, so I made my own...
...which I screwed up on the first try. I was reading an obsolete version of the bill. Aargh!

So here it is again, with corrections:

"The Real ID Act: Real Problems" (http://web.newsguy.com/whoareyou/Real-ID.htm)

Some important points that I got wrong originally:

The States may issue a "second-tier" license that is clearly marked as not valid for Federal ID purposes, for people who can't/won't provide all the required documentation. (The States are not required to provide this option, though.)

Database-sharing between the states is effectively mandatory (not just something they have to do to get Federal funding).

When the Sec of Homeland Security waives laws to get the border fence built, there is not a "no judicial review" clause protecting him. But there are limits on judicial review, which are still worrisome and perhaps unconstitutional.

Ugh.

Claire, thanks for your kind comments. I think there's a need for many different approaches on this issue, and as for me, I can't write high-temperature rabble-rousing stuff. I'm glad that you (and others) can.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Joel on May 19, 2005, 10:54:59 am
Check this out from Sunni's blog...

(http://www.sunnimaravillosa.com/archives/sensiburner.jpg)

 :lol:  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on May 19, 2005, 04:28:22 pm
Here's a link to an article in InformationWeek about technology issues related to Real ID:

'Real ID' Faces Reality (http://www.informationweek.com/shared/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=163102234)

The article is broadly sympathetic towards the Real ID system (afer all, it means lots of work in the information technology industry), and refers to Ron Paul's forecasts of Big-Brotherism as "perhaps a bit far out".

Here's the sort of thing they don't consider far-out:

Quote
As machine-readable IDs take hold, the private sector could rely on them in new ways and perhaps play a more-direct role in helping verify identities before IDs are issued, says Maxwell of the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators. If states allow an electric or gas bill as evidence of residency to issue a driver's license, they might need to link to a utility's customer database to prove the invoice is real. Databases such as those managed by ChoicePoint Inc. and LexisNexis could be checked to verify information provided by a license applicant. Maxwell envisions airport-security personnel or even banks scanning in an ID, then being allowed to link up with state motor-vehicle databases to compare the images and data on driver's licenses before allowing a person to board a plane or open an account.

Gosh, that's reassuring.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Delos on May 19, 2005, 09:07:22 pm
Quote
If I am going to be denied or risk being denied medical care, the ability to conduct basic financial transactions, to travel when necessary, etc... or if I risk being incarcerated as a result of doing any of the above and other things without government-approved ID, then saying hell no is not all there is to it for me.  I wish it were that simple, but for most of us that's not remarkably practical advice.  I will resist in every practical way I can, but I have no plans to die or rot in a jail cell over this.


Kirsten,

Wouldn't it seem to you like bondage, bending to government's every capricious whim, and anyway, what do you want to do--live forever?

"Just say no!" is damn good policy, IMO. It's is essentially, and simply, the right thing to do.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 20, 2005, 12:43:29 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Misfit on May 20, 2005, 03:09:10 am
It's a hard call, Kirsten. I think we're all spending a lot of time in recent days contemplating our options.
It's becoming more and more clear that "crunch time" is coming fast and we all have to make up our minds what we're going to do.

My husband and I are already much more on the edge of society than we used to be. We have no health insurance and don't go to the doctor unless it's an emergency (and we have had some, including having an amputated finger reattached, and have mananged). Unfortunately, we also have gotten pretty used to being out of work for periods of time and picking up odd jobs. (I, actually, did some side work for someone here at TCF recently.) Our income was below the tax threshold this past year, not by our choice so much, but I do get the bonus satisfaction of knowing the govt got nothing from us last year. Maybe we'll be as "lucky" this year too. All this has seemed to be fated for us, it seems like we've been getting a crash course in learning to be adaptable and getting down to bare bones living. As in, remembering that for the majority of human history we've had no insurance, no pensions, no credit cards, no electricity....we can survive without those things if we need to...honest.

For some people this is "The Mark of the Beast" and is to be refused at all costs. I don't know if I believe that's what this NID is or not, but it's evil no matter what it is. I'm just debating whether I'm willing to kill or be killed for my beliefs. I figure, in the end we all wind up dead, might as well go out standing on my principles. Death isn't the worst possible outcome, letting them control our lives is. I'd also rather be a political prisoner locked up than a compliant citizen on the outside. (Not that I'm going to volunteer for any of those things.)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on May 20, 2005, 11:18:08 am
When Claire began this thread she asked for ways of resisting the onslaught of the NID. I downloaded the whole thread and read from the beginning to end. I saw a couple of solutions given.

One that was voiced a few times was “Just say No”. That would be good if more and more people in this country understood the consequences it will have on them in the long run. I’d be willing to bet that if you took a small segment of the population and asked the question of what you think about the NID most would say they heard something about. Ask them if they think it would be harmful and again I’d be willing to bet that many haven’t even given that much thought. The way to get the message across to these people would be educating them. How? You could write an opinion in the local Sunday paper on the Editors Page. Our Sunday paper has such a section were people voice their opinions and you don’t have to have your name printed after it if you don’t want. In our area there is also a paper that has want ads, for sale ads, and other advertisement in it call the Penny Saver. This paper usually serves several surrounding counties. In it is a section called “I just Gotta’ Vent”. You can write your opinion there also anonymously. In another section of this web site I saw a thread about bumper stickers. I think that’s another good idea, although some thought not and gave good reasons. I say a magnetic one so you can take it of fast. I’d have several made with different themes.

The word here is education. What needs to happen is to get the word out to the ordinary citizen. Having web sites is fine, but the majority of the people are not going to look for web sites such as this. They are busy on AOL exchanging pictures and down loading MP3 music. Also there are still quite a number of people out there without computers; the word needs to get to them too.

I just got another flash of insight. Add web site addresses to the bumper stickers or opinion that are written to the papers I mentioned above and point them to this sight and others.

Quote
If I am going to be denied or risk being denied medical care, the ability to conduct basic financial transactions, to travel when necessary, etc... or if I risk being incarcerated as a result of doing any of the above and other things without government-approved ID, then saying hell no is not all there is to it for me. I wish it were that simple, but for most of us that's not remarkably practical advice. I will resist in every practical way I can, but I have no plans to die or rot in a jail cell over this.

I feel the same why Kristen does in the statement she made. Also I’m no good to anybody or the resistance if I’m incarcerated or dead.

I hope I’ve given some people ideas here as how to get the word out.

Cat
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 20, 2005, 11:54:07 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on May 20, 2005, 02:54:36 pm
Quote
Regarding Cat's opinion column comments, here's a resource from the ACLU regarding how to write an op-ed piece.

Thanks Kristen. That's the kind of info I need. I'm not much of a writer and have a hard time putting pen to paper so to speak. :unsure:

In regards to your going to jail statement I have visions of spending a night with Buba behind bars and it isn't pleasent. I'm sure I don't have to paint a vivid picture of what I'm talking about to any one here.  :(

Cat
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Misfit on May 20, 2005, 04:02:21 pm
By all means do what you feel motivated to do. I guess I just don't have much faith in letter writing campaigns anymore. I don't expect to convince the vast majority of the public with my POV. Besides, if they're not listening to Vin in the local paper here, then I'm not going to get their attention either. I mostly see any kind of writing, demonstrations, flyers, bumper stickers, or whatever else we do as "don't say we didn't warn you". The Feds, obviously, are way too full of themselves to care what some "wacky radicals" are doing. "Besides don't you know all those people are racists?" They can make any BS up they want and the media will sell it to the public. Next thing you know, they're pulling kiddie porn out of your computer that was never there before. "Yeah, you're an upright citizen, you pervert." At some point the diplomacy ends and then you got to decide whether you're going to fight (not on paper or in the courtroom) or submit.  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 20, 2005, 04:23:02 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: sin419 on May 20, 2005, 04:54:15 pm
along the lines of promoting awareness I thought a temporary tattoo of a bar code might get some interest going.  Mabey w/a catchy slogan underneath.  Seems funny but it might give folks a glimpse of what slavery could look like.  We could pass them out on college campuses or any gathering of large numbers of people.

sin
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: beech_trees on May 20, 2005, 07:08:43 pm
http://www.barcodeart.com/buy/tattoo.html (http://www.barcodeart.com/buy/tattoo.html)

(http://www.barcodeart.com/art/tattoo/slave_hand_sm.jpg)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: sin419 on May 20, 2005, 07:24:37 pm
dammit somebody beat me to it

good
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 20, 2005, 11:18:50 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Misfit on May 21, 2005, 01:35:59 am
Quote
(For example, when fundamentalist Christians get worked up over something, well you can just bet that there's going to be some serious action on that.)
Honestly, I'm a little surprised they haven't been jumping up and down about this. The only thing I can guess is it's because beloved Brother Bush, who they think is a fellow fundamentalist, is telling them it isn't the Mark of the Beast they all fear from those Tim LaHaye books.

Everytime some fundamentalist tells me what a wonderful, godly man Bush is, I tell 'em I think he's the Antichrist.

Quote
In fact, perhaps we could make a database of our own with all of these people's personal information, and then have icons all link back to it. They might be captioned something like, "Larry, You're in Our Database".

Yep, turn around would only be fair for those politicians...and fun.  :D  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: thistle on May 21, 2005, 09:12:14 pm
Quote
I've had another thought. Does anyone have any ideas on how we can get all of the personal information for various major players in the Real ID push (e.g. Sensenbrenner, Larry Ellision, etc.) such as address, SSN, etc.? What if we made ID card graphics with their personal information and used them as icons on various websites?

Nice one Kirsten. I remember wired.com had an article (http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,56860,00.html) about people taking satellite photos of Gen. Poindexter's house because of that Total Information Awareness program he pushed.

If it weren't so distastful, I'd like to see what Sensenbrenner thought of photos of his kid's daycare appearing on the internet.

edit:
According to the information on the page. This is a photo of Poindexter's house.
http://eyeball-series.org/tia-eyeball.htm (http://eyeball-series.org/tia-eyeball.htm)
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on May 21, 2005, 10:06:07 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Bill St. Clair on May 22, 2005, 08:07:53 am
Google Maps (http://maps.google.com/) doesn't have the resolution of the USGS, but type in "10 Barrington Fare, Rockville, MD", the address from the eyeballing page, click the "Satellite" link, and go to full resolution, and you'll see very nearly the same resolution image as on the eyeballing page.

One of the advantages of living in the boonies is that Google Maps doesn't, yet, have high res satellite images there.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Loxosceles_Reclusa on May 23, 2005, 04:37:18 pm
Quote
Quote
(For example, when fundamentalist Christians get worked up over something, well you can just bet that there's going to be some serious action on that.)
Honestly, I'm a little surprised they haven't been jumping up and down about this. The only thing I can guess is it's because beloved Brother Bush, who they think is a fellow fundamentalist, is telling them it isn't the Mark of the Beast they all fear from those Tim LaHaye books.

Everytime some fundamentalist tells me what a wonderful, godly man Bush is, I tell 'em I think he's the Antichrist.

Quote
In fact, perhaps we could make a database of our own with all of these people's personal information, and then have icons all link back to it. They might be captioned something like, "Larry, You're in Our Database".

Yep, turn around would only be fair for those politicians...and fun.  :D

 This -- the complacency on the part of Christians  -- has been puzzling me too.

 My own mother -- who is a big fan of those "Left Behind" books (I am not a fan) -- became enraged with me for even bringing up the isssue of the national I.D. card up at all. And she said smugly even if it *is* the Mark of the Beast, or the last stop before that, there will *always* be ways for the Christians to still be able to buy and sell essential goods and services.

 "Maybe." I said. "Until they get caught."

 To get the word out, we've got to keep the message simple and to the point -- short and sweet.

 Something like "M.O.B In May '08" on signs and billboards everywhere, and on t-shirts and bumper stickers. "M.O.B." standing for "Mark Of the Beast," of course. If it is being whispered (or even joked about and scoffed at) everywhere, it might start to soak in.

 BTW, I'm not convinced that you can just bet there's going to be serious action on something when the fundamentalist Christians get worked up over something.

  Bush has made some *noises* they liked about abortion and gay marriage (the only issues they really get worked up about -- they are indifferent or even hostile to freedom in general, as long as abortion and homosexuals can be stamped out). But what has Bush really *done* about it? All the abortion mills grind on apace. Same-sex marriage may have run into some temporary snags, but it ain't dead.

 Lox
Title: ID Resist
Post by: A Nonny Mouse on May 23, 2005, 07:55:19 pm
Quote
There's one set of people who this will not effect and I wonder how the gumint is going to handle them. Who am I talking about? Why the Amish ofcourse. They are not allowed to operate cars. Will they have to get ID cards for their horses? :lol:

BTW I believe they also don't have SS numbers or regular bank accounts like us.

Cat
I live in a state with a good-sized Amish population. This state has just passed a law requiring government-issued photo ID for anyone wanting to vote in an election. I believe that the Amish were not exempted entirely but are allowed to have a version without the photo. (How's that for a CYA move: require a government ID to vote, that way those who oppose the ID can't vote you out of office) The ACLU is fighting the new law by saying that it disenfrancises the poor and the elderly. Even though the state will offer a "free" ID Card, the documentation required to obtain one (such as a certified copy of your birth certificate) may be cost-prohibitive to some. It's also biased against those without a permanent address who can't use utility bills as a form of documentation. You also must apply in person, which is difficult for the elderly/shut-ins.

I'm guessing that many of us here don't vote anyway (I don't), but perhaps these arguements could be used against Real ID in general.

You are correct Cat, the Amish are exempt from Social Security. I've seen several horse-and-buggies tied up in front of the local bank, but they may have belonged to Mennonites rather than Amish.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Bear on May 23, 2005, 11:11:31 pm
I like the billboard idea. Go for the emotional punch without using the word Nazi.
Use black and white photos for impact.

#1 A picture of children liberated from a concentration camp showing their tattooed ID
numbers on their skinny fore-arms. Caption: They had ID.

#2. An officer inspects a woman's papers on the street in some nameles european city.
Behind the officer stands a storm trooper with his machine gun at port-arms.

Caption:

REAL ID didn't help the Jews,
   or the other Germans,
   or the French,
   or the Poles,
   or the Chechs,
   or the Danes,
   or the Armenians,
   or the Tutsis,
   or
(fade to black)


A companion piece to the black and white photo of the woman, officer and storm trooper.

Compose the same scene, with actors who resemble the real people in the black and white photo.
This one is in color, as it's modern times.

Caption: Got ID?

Bear
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: HRearden on May 23, 2005, 11:52:40 pm
Quote
I like the bilboard idea and have a suggestion. I think the swastika would be negative for the movement but a forearm with the death camp ID number tatooed on might bring a better response. I am going to start more searches on the net for info on this subject. I do think this brainstorming part will be very important for all of us. This might need to become a forum page of it's own. Easier for stopper bys to find and particapaite.

How about a billboard that makes reference to the Village in the tv series the Prisoner and that in the Village everyone had a number they were required to wear to identify who they are?

                          $

" I am not a number, I am a free man."

  - Number Six
Title: ID Resist
Post by: TheGrayMan on May 24, 2005, 02:16:42 am
It has been suggested to get a passport with a student ID or similar card.  It is not that easy. The form might say "such as a DL", but what they really mean is an ID issued by State or Federal agency (just speaking from experience).

The US Dept. of State is also on the Biometric band wagon.  In fact they have been working on that prior to the National ID.  The problem they are running into is that a passport is intended for international travel and getting other countries on the same page is hard.  Weather it be do to resistance to the idea or lack of tech.

The real issue is just what the title of this thread says "ID Resist".  Skirting around the issue will get us nothing in the long run.  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 24, 2005, 09:54:36 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: TheGrayMan on May 24, 2005, 11:10:40 am
By resisting I was refering to fighting the act, contacting reps., exposing the IDs flaws to the media, ect.   The way I see it, that is the only way.  Avoiding the National ID by only using a Student ID or some other "ID" will eventually come to an end.  I hate to say it, but that is the writing on the wall.  Unless you are willing to live an existance of "non-existance".  And by that I mean not being able to set up basic utilities, drive a car, have a bank account, on and on.

Some will say fine, that is what I will do.  OK go for it.  Have you tried it?  

I say this as a MOLE.  I have been a service member, a federal employee, a priviate contractor, a federal officer, and now an independent contractor.  The only officially recognized IDs are those issued by a govt. agency-State or Fed.  No, your library card does not prove you are who you say you are, or your citizenship.  It only tells them you can check out books.  No, your Costco card is not an ID.  It does not prove who you are, ect.  Both (and many more cards) are issued with very little if any ID check.  Is the city library qualified to tell if your student ID or birth cert are fake.  NO.  That is why they are not recognized.

The problem with ID cards is that we need to be able to ID eachother, but not violate our privacy.  BS you say?  OK, prove to the bank, taxman or whoever that you own your house/car/dog/ ect.  Are those your children?  Can I see your ID?  See where this goes?  We all have names, the problem is that that name is supposed to belong to you, not someone else.  Well how do you prove that you really are who you say you are?  ID theft is rampant.  If all I need to do is get your library card, does that mean that I can sell your house for you?

So to sum it up, I think it is time to organize.  Time to hold our (supposedly) elected officials accountable.  I know, I know "don't talk to your congresscritter".  The problem is that unless you are ready for armed resistance, that is what you need to do.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: NuclearDruid on May 24, 2005, 11:28:33 am
Waco, TX Editor takes brave stand on Real ID (not <_< )
A national ID system will thwart criminals and illegals (http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/news/editorial/11721826.htm)

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Congress long has ignored notices that the United States needs a standardized method to be able to identify and track people who commit crimes in one state and easily take up residence and new identities in another state.

Meanwhile, voter fraud could be reduced with secure national IDs.

Yeah, right!

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Terrorism and homeland security issues aside, however, the principle of the rule of law erodes in the United States when the government fails to enforce the law that prohibits U.S. employers from hiring workers who are illegally inside the United States. This was the conclusion of the Jordan commission report on immigration reform.

This guy's in Waco right? I figured he'd know all about federal enforcement. :blink:

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Congress recognizes the problem. That's a start. It should bite the bullet and pass a federal national ID system.

Ah, the smell of Freedom of the Press. I'd personally prefer standing downwind of a pig farm (or DC).

ND
Title: ID Resist
Post by: securitysix on May 24, 2005, 01:13:07 pm
OK, so I went down last Friday and renewed my permission slip to drive.  Everyone I had talked to that had been through it said that the prints they were taking were either the right index finger or the right index finger and right thumb, but none of them could remember for sure.  So I superglued my right index finger and right thumb, figuring I'd be covered.  

Get over to the tag agency and sign in and they ask for my current permission slip...er, driver's license, which they promptly confiscated, and an alternate form of ID.  Turns up, the cards for my medical insurance count as alternate ID.  Neat.  So the lady takes my picture, which I hate having done in general, and then says to put my left index finger on their little print scanner...SHIT!  OK, so they got a really good image of my left index finger.  DMV: 1, Me: 0Then she says to put my right index finger up there.  So I put my right index finger on the scanner and she says "Hmm...we're not getting a very good scan on this one at all."  Because the lady has been so nice (except the picture thing, but that wasn't her fault), I resist the urge to yell "THAT'S RIGHT YOU STATIST BITCH!", and just keep my yap shut.  She opens up a little can of what looks (and feels and smells) like lip gloss and says "Rub your finger on this for a second then rub that in with your thumb."  Waterless hand cleaner, I'm betting.  So I do that and she says "OK, put your right finger back up here again."  She runs the scan again, then sighs and says "I guess that will just have to do."  :)  DMV: 1, Superglue: 1.  Then she says "OK, hit either 'yes' or 'no' when it asks about being an organ donor, then sign on the dotted line."  I hit "no" and she goes "Uh oh."  She then picks up the phone, hits a speed dial button and starts talking about how the computer crashed.  I kind of smile, knowing that computers are very fallible (something you learn quickly in my line of work).  So I wait for them to unpooch the system and she has to retake my picture, but the prints saved, go figure.

I guess there's no point in me refusing the mark of the beast now....
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on May 24, 2005, 02:43:03 pm
Lesson learned, superglue all your damn fingers.

Actually, lessong learned:  Elmer's glue your fingers, and while the glue is still malleable "print" it with some other wrinkly part of skin, such as the inner palm.  This *should* create ridges and bumps that will show up clearer, but not match your fingertips.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Harleqwin on May 24, 2005, 04:53:33 pm
Just a minor FYI on the Google maps thing:

I checked out my area (Niagara Falls) and the photo is roughly at least 2 years old.  I started at my house, and scanned to the falls, and then upriver.  There are a couple of major construction projects that have happened that are not on the satellite view.

And interestingly, they actually have "smudged" out the image near the Power Project so that you cannot view the generators area, but not the reservoir; that you can see.  I would expect them to do so, just minorly interesting that it is so.  OOOH, now I will go look at the Airbase near me..... Yep, that is "smudged" too.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on May 24, 2005, 10:08:06 pm
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Just a minor FYI on the Google maps thing:

I checked out my area (Niagara Falls) and the photo is roughly at least 2 years old.  I started at my house, and scanned to the falls, and then upriver.  There are a couple of major construction projects that have happened that are not on the satellite view.

And interestingly, they actually have "smudged" out the image near the Power Project so that you cannot view the generators area, but not the reservoir; that you can see.  I would expect them to do so, just minorly interesting that it is so.  OOOH, now I will go look at the Airbase near me..... Yep, that is "smudged" too.
I wonder if they've got software tracking who wants to persist in looking at a lot of those sites...

It's what I might consider if I were in their shoes.
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Misfit on May 25, 2005, 04:22:52 am
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The problem with ID cards is that we need to be able to ID eachother, but not violate our privacy.  BS you say?  OK, prove to the bank, taxman or whoever that you own your house/car/dog/ ect.  Are those your children?  Can I see your ID?  See where this goes?  We all have names, the problem is that that name is supposed to belong to you, not someone else.  Well how do you prove that you really are who you say you are?  ID theft is rampant.  If all I need to do is get your library card, does that mean that I can sell your house for you?
Well, I have titles to those things with my name on them, but no SSN or other "identifier" on the titles. I wouldn't have a problem showing a banker or whoever some documentation backing up that those things are mine or that I am who I say. My big issue is why does my SSN and other info have to go into their database to be hacked into and stolen? Why can't they just enter "Yep, we saw proof of their identity."?  We wouldn't have such an ID theft problem if we weren't being demanded to give out our SSN to everyone who asks. Why on God's green earth does Blockbuster need my SSN? They don't, but they're demanding it or no movies for you. I've got no movies...I'm not willing to give some deadbeat all the info he needs to go buy a new Mustang on my credit. Connecting all our information to one universal ID system is only going to make ID theft worse.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: kfander on May 25, 2005, 07:15:42 am
We are accepting guest articles on this subject. While we are based in Maine, only about 50% of our readership comes from within the state, and we see an average of 4,000 unique visitors per day.

Editorials, on pretty much any topic, can be submitted via email or email attachment. Plain text is best, but I can read and convert most other formats.

Ken Anderson
editor@magic-city-news.com
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 25, 2005, 07:30:47 am
We'll be amazed at how resourceful, wise, and smart we become as this latest round of tyranny becomes a part of life.  That said, there is still the state option and their representatives.  Like other things, the individual states will have final say as to whether they will accept the federal standards.  

Each round of tyranny provides endless opportunity for work arounds.  A costco card, library card, or utility bill probably won't do much for you by themselves in the living part of the life cycle, agreed.  Networks, proxies, and people you know will provide the best options.  Begin to layer and disassociate from anything that may need a NID in the future, NOW.  Form the decentralized networks and we can look back around the corner turned and see that just like in the past, the future will require some work but is certainly livable.  

I've seen people live "below the radar" through a couple of rounds of tyranny thus far, in fact, that's part of my business.  I've studied tyranny in Police States that had 1 out of 3 citizens become snitches.  One can live a good life without using banks.  

If a bank account is necessary for you, consider taking a vacation to Montreal or Toronto or Vancouver, open a bank account there- shop around of course as different banks have different requirements, and you will not be asked for a SSN.  They do not have record retention regs like we do here and do not have anything like Fincen going over everybody's bank records all of the time.  Use the atm card and the machines that spit out cash.

There is no law saying one must use the banking system- though there are rules making it fairly difficult to conduct business without one.  One might have to give up a couple of "luxuries" now and then but remember, living this way is not pathetic.  I've seen people form partnerships to buy property with no debt.  I've seen people form relationships before the next round of tyranny so that "know your customer" is already established once the tyranny is in place.  It's viable to live in this way.  Networks and nominees are good ideas and if one can't afford to purchase property without loans, rent until you can within your networks.

Don't fly, unless you have to.  If you give in and get a NID, then do not tie your current address into it.  If you put your current address down, move immediately and keep the NID, but use sparingly.  

Make it your goal to launch an all out monkeywrench campaign against any database you can find.

Communicate to your state reps. that in no way will you accept the adoption of such standards in identification.  File lawsuits.  

Use your mainstream connections to plant seeds- in print, at the coffee shop, on the street light poles, your friends, your moles, etc.

Many things can be done.  We are a resourceful and in the future, when we look back, we will be amazed at how well we've done to fight and get around the tyranny.  

I wrote a longer post yesterday but lost it, so this will have to do.  Remember, each one of these ideas and all of them together will produce momentum.  The key to me is to get that word out to people that have heard about it, but let is slide into history.  The other sheep have already given every bit of power to the congress and politicians as if the sheep are working for them.  They are indeed powerful, especially when watching oprah, dr. phil, and Maury.  Congress knows most people do this and would never question or read a bill because most people think they are just protecting the Homeland these days.

Enough babbling sorry bout the spelling, I liked my other post better so I wrote this one quickly.

Peace and Good Day
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on May 25, 2005, 09:13:49 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 25, 2005, 11:51:14 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: securitysix on May 25, 2005, 12:07:23 pm
Quote
Noting Claire's latest blog entry, I am motivated to do some major research this weekend (assuming that reading RebelFire doesn't take the entire weekend to read) and begin establishing the database I talked about earlier.  Any input as to categories for which we (as in anyone who is interested in contributing) should gather data would be highly appreciated.  Off the top of my head:

Full Name
Nickname
Home Address
Home Telephone Number
Local Office Address
Local Office Telephone Number
DC Office Address (if applicable)
DC Office Telephone Number (if applicable)
Social Security Number
Professional License Number (e.g. if a medical professional, etc...)
E-mail Address
Birth Date
Vehicle VINs and License Plate Numbers
This would be the database containing info on the JBTs?  If so, I'd add, as optional fields, of course, the following:

Income
Tax bracket
Taxes actually paid
Businesses owned
Stocks owned
Properties owned
Medical records

OK, so some of these would be hard, if not impossible, to get, but since the JBTs have all this info on us, it only seems fair.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 25, 2005, 12:29:22 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 25, 2005, 03:10:29 pm
Some folks from MIT used to try and gather some info on politicians.  A guy around Seattle tried to database the PD.  Haven't heard anything from them in a while.  Hopefully you can keep it up and as for ideas, well, start with every single member who voted for it and you should be busy for quite some time.

Maybe you can make it worth the time and effort.  Maybe others will join you.  I wish you luck.

Peace and Good Day
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 25, 2005, 05:04:06 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on May 25, 2005, 08:17:25 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on May 25, 2005, 08:25:44 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on May 26, 2005, 02:35:50 am
Real ID
(http://photos11.flickr.com/15700045_8742dfbcdd_m.jpg)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 26, 2005, 06:41:09 am
RagnarDanneskjold,

Yeah, short and to the point.  A picture speaks many words.  The sheep might be to frightened though.  ;)

Kirsten,

I have a million ideas about who to go after, many of which are subsidiaries of Choicepoint but some are not.  I'll start another thread that will expand over time listing companies and eventually executives who are pushing this stuff.  Perhaps we can get something started right here for later entry into databases.  :)

Coalition for a Secure Driver’s License- Read my blog and another thread deeper down to see exactly what we're doing about it. lol.  Those bastards are funded by some big political money.

Peace and Good Day
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 26, 2005, 09:35:05 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on May 26, 2005, 10:59:12 pm
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My top priorities would be those who sponsored the legislation on the government side, and then the top banana at each of the companies/non-profits/other private organizations that are pushing this.  Organization names are good, specific people's names are better, lots of other juicy information would also be appreciated!
I almost feel the other way about it. If no one in the private sector would get involved with this shit, they could not get it done. This point was even pointed out by Randi Rhodes at Air America Radio.

Quote
BTW, is anyone here knowledgeable about databases?
Databases. If only I didn't have so many other things occupying my mind at this time.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Junker on May 27, 2005, 09:12:50 am
No NID Wiki (http://toddmontanye.com/cgi-bin/wiki-01.pl?NoID)
at
Freedom Swings (http://toddmontanye.com/cgi-bin/wiki-01.pl)

Started, add your comments, hints, solutions, links, ...

NoIDjob
NoIDmoney
NoIDmeds
NoIDchecks
NoIDmortgage (or rent)
NoIDguns

Licensing (or other IDs):

NoIDpassport
NoIDpilot
NoIDdrive

NoIDother
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 27, 2005, 01:46:26 pm
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 27, 2005, 02:45:46 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2401347_pf.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/24/AR2005052401347_pf.html)

might be of some interest for ya.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 30, 2005, 09:55:07 am
Just a quick note to pass along, Real ID Rebellion has been added at the top of the "How to Be Invisible" site in the answers section.  Good job JJ!.   Here's the quote:

"An interesting website for those of you who are concerned about a possible national identity card:
http://realidrebellion.blogspot.com/http:/...n.blogspot.com/ (http://realidrebellion.blogspot.com/http://realidrebellion.blogspot.com/)

Peace and Good Day
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on May 30, 2005, 10:22:47 am
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Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on May 30, 2005, 10:54:08 pm
Bet!  I blogged the site too!  Forgive the brief moments from my childhood mixed with some commentary.  Sure, it was done in about 5 minutes but just came into mind.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on June 01, 2005, 12:43:09 am
Here is a site called no2id (http://www.no2id.net/)
Looks like a Brit site since they use the word spanner for wrench
Quote
Thousands of our supporters have pledged to resist the introduction of the national ID scheme.

Now we need to know exactly HOW you want to take action.

We intend proving that the government can never win this battle, so we've launched a competition to find the most innovative and powerful ways to (legally) throw spanners into the works. Get furtive and join us here for the fun.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: remnantfarm on June 02, 2005, 03:30:08 pm
This is my first post, and I'm pretty computer-disabled, but won't the whole "getting around the strips and stuff" be pretty useless?  I mean, one of the major reasons they want this is to completely track you, so every transaction will eventually be NID required, and every time, your NID MUST go through?

I think our best defense/offense will be to create some sort of Freedom Network of people willing to do the jobs without ID.  There have to be doctors, dentists, bankers, etc. that hate this, right?  Especially with all of terrible laws against them and the hoops they have to jump to be "certified".

We'll be moving the family to MT next year, as our research showed that state to be one of the more "anti-fed".  I would love to find local Dr.s, bankers, etc. to work with that don't require me to name my mother's, aunt's first cousin once removed's, son's, grandmother's maiden name and serial rank to sign up!

Other info on Sensenbrenner, et al:
all info on wife, children, extended family (you know they're going to do the same to us!)
all other owned property
possible friend links (especially if they're also ID Happy)
offshore links (accounts, homes, etc)

I would love to see everything down to his library books and "private" purchases!  The gov't will have access to ours from the credit cards (another thing I am almost weaned off of).  Ahhh, the thought of seeing purchases for gov't taboo items splashed all over the internet.

Anyway, that's my not worth two cents.

Amber
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on June 02, 2005, 05:42:07 pm
So many people are so trapped within the control grid (system) they won't abandon their ID's.  The goal to me is to get as many people out of the system as possible and rally to change the tyranny.  A snitch culture will emerge as the sheep see others who haven't submitted, so be careful out there.  Within gulches, private communities, etc.  that's just fine.  Step outside of that world and you'll see the new Stasi in action, but we'll find ways around it indeed.

Peace and Good Day
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 02, 2005, 11:24:09 pm
FYI, I just rewrote most of the Wikipedia article on the Real ID Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act).

The hard part was logging arguments in favor of the thing! Gotta be neutral, or at least balanced, for Wikipedia.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on June 02, 2005, 11:38:57 pm
In favor?  No, I understand.  But at least tinge it with a bit of the negative :)  .
from wikipedia:
"National ID controversy

There is disagreement about whether the Real ID Act institutes a "national identification card" system. Some argue that the new law only sets forth national standards, but leaves the issuance of cards and the maintenance of databases in state hands; therefore, it is not a true "national ID" system, and may even forestall the arrival of national ID.

Others argue that this is a trivial distinction, and that the new cards are de facto national ID cards, thanks to the uniform national standards and (especially) the linked databases.

Arguments for and against identity cards are covered in detail under identity document.

Also, many have pointed out that the 9/11 terrorists all had proper identification.

Additionally, some say that it is unwise to restrict illegal immigrants from obtaining driver's licenses, as this will also keep them from obtaining liability insurance. Others say that the new law isn't restrictive enough, because it allows states to offer "not for federal ID" licenses that might be obtained by illegal immigrants."

No disagreement or controversy there, this is a NID!
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 03, 2005, 01:56:06 pm
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"... Some argue that the new law only sets forth national standards, but leaves the issuance of cards and the maintenance of databases in state hands; therefore, it is not a true "national ID" system, and may even forestall the arrival of national ID...."

No disagreement or controversy there, this is a NID!
Well, I know that. But I've actually seen that argument, apparently from Bushaholics -- Real ID is going to save us from the horrors of National ID!

So I had to put it in for balance. But I'd hope that anyone with one or two neurons will be able to see that it's just word games.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: ozarksnick on June 04, 2005, 04:38:03 pm
Hi all relatively new to the forum, now for my first post.

So-and-so back yonder a ways says that folks need to have an ID so that they can prove that they are who they say they are, and so that they can prove that they own what they own, etc.

I say bull!

Since the issue of RealID has come up, I've given thought to those ideas and they are bumpkus. A law abiding citizen of this country does not need to prove anything to anybody!

Remember that great little phrase, "innocent till proven guilty?" That's why I don't have to prove anything. Our society has changed from that basic premise of law to the idea that once accused we have to prove our innocence (hell it's even before we're accused now). Instead of being treated like the folks at liberty we really are (supposed to be anyway), we are constantly having to "prove" that we are not some criminal pulling a heist. At the bank, power company, telephone companies, etc., we have to prove that we are not criminals. Which is the wrong way to go about it.

Mandatory government ID is wrong any way you look at it.

Now there are tough questions that go with this line of thinking. At a bank, how do you prove that you really are the one who opened that account and that that money is yours? I don't really know. Maybe the accounts are random strings of numbers to which you also set a PIN that no one else knows, oh wait? ... isn't that what they do in Switzerland?

Sure there are still problems like folks being able to hack the numbers and get your money. But that's what's so great about the free market system, folks are great about making money by solving problems.

But the bottom line is that I am not a criminal and do not have to prove anything to anyone. And also that I will not willing forfeit any of my liberty based upon a bunch of "what if" scenarios.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: purplekitty on June 04, 2005, 05:08:06 pm
Quote
Hi all relatively new to the forum, now for my first post.

Remember that great little phrase, "innocent till proven guilty?" That's why I don't have to prove anything. Our society has changed from that basic premise of law to the idea that once accused we have to prove our innocence (hell it's even before we're accused now). Instead of being treated like the folks at liberty we really are (supposed to be anyway), we are constantly having to "prove" that we are not some criminal pulling a heist. At the bank, power company, telephone companies, etc., we have to prove that we are not criminals. Which is the wrong way to go about it.
Hi ozarksnick. I'm new here too. I keep putting my two cents in, I think I'm about broke now.  ;)

Anyway, you have a good point that it's not "innocent till proven guilty" anymore.  It's like everybody assumes that if you're accused of anything than you MUST be guilty and defending yourself is almost just making excuses.  We're just a quick hop away from having no chance of even trying to defend yourself.  Trials without juries and convictions without the chance of defense.

I'd thank you for bringing this to my attention... but it doesn't make me very happy.  :angry:  
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on June 04, 2005, 05:41:26 pm
Quote
 
Quote
Hi all relatively new to the forum, now for my first post.

Welcome.

Quote
So-and-so back yonder a ways says that folks need to have an ID so that they can prove that they are who they say they are, and so that they can prove that they own what they own, etc.

I say bull!

Since the issue of RealID has come up, I've given thought to those ideas and they are bumpkus. A law abiding citizen of this country does not need to prove anything to anybody!

That's a perfectly valid opinion as far as I'm concerned,  but then there are those who would disagree (more below).

Quote
Remember that great little phrase, "innocent till proven guilty?" That's why I don't have to prove anything. Our society has changed from that basic premise of law to the idea that once accused we have to prove our innocence (hell it's even before we're accused now). Instead of being treated like the folks at liberty we really are (supposed to be anyway), we are constantly having to "prove" that we are not some criminal pulling a heist. At the bank, power company, telephone companies, etc., we have to prove that we are not criminals. Which is the wrong way to go about it.

Sure is.

Quote
But the bottom line is that I am not a criminal and do not have to prove anything to anyone. And also that I will not willing forfeit any of my liberty based upon a bunch of "what if" scenarios.

But here's the thing -- you get asked for ID by some law enforcement officer and don't produce it the odds are pretty good that you _will_ be taken into custody,  unless you're in a fairly small town and people (including the cop in question) already know who you are.  And this is the way it's been for oh,  at least the past 40 years that I know of personally,  no idea how it was before that.

Not that I'm saying this is right or anything,  don't get me wrong,  but that seems to be how it is.

Couple any sort of behavior that they could consider "suspicious" and it only gets worse.  As is also the case if you're operating a motor vehicle.  What the heck you're supposed to do if your wallet gets lost or stolen I don't know.

Sucks,  don't it?
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: ozarksnick on June 04, 2005, 09:25:43 pm
Quote
But here's the thing -- you get asked for ID by some law enforcement officer and don't produce it the odds are pretty good that you _will_ be taken into custody,  unless you're in a fairly small town and people (including the cop in question) already know who you are.  And this is the way it's been for oh,  at least the past 40 years that I know of personally,  no idea how it was before that.

Not that I'm saying this is right or anything,  don't get me wrong,  but that seems to be how it is.

Couple any sort of behavior that they could consider "suspicious" and it only gets worse.  As is also the case if you're operating a motor vehicle.  What the heck you're supposed to do if your wallet gets lost or stolen I don't know.

Sucks,  don't it?

Yup it does suck.

Perhaps I got a little over zealous with that first post. ;)

I'm not trying to say that I don't use ID, because at this point I do. I'm just saying that our society has flip-flopped. We've gone from being folks at liberty to being full-time suspects.

I will not use a NationalID, and I'm going to start curtailing my use of state ID. Not exactly sure what all I'll be doing, but ...

We already purchase a good portion of our groceries from local sources that wouldn't blink an eye about me not showing any ID. So hopefully that'll stay good. We're also ramping up our personal food production as well.

Driving? I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that. The only thing I've come up with so far is that I know most of the little dirt backroads around this county and I have never once seen a patrol car out there unless there was a fire or some such. Working for the paper, I got to see the tickets stats for the sheriff's dept here and they wrote a whopping grand total of 42 tickets the entire year, so I'd bet that if you stayed on the backroads here as much as possible you'd never ever get pulled over.

We're going to start stocking up on things that we can not procure locally without ID, such as rifles and ammo and things of that nature.

What else? ... Hmm... not sure.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on June 05, 2005, 01:56:18 pm
Stock up on your cash and alternate ways of getting it and buy valuables private party. You may still be able to write checks you receive to other people so they can use their NID to cash them.  

Mr. Bill,
Good work indeed!  I wasn't trying to criticize.  That's a good tactic and I would hope some people would have 2 or more neurons.  :)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Simon_Jester on June 11, 2005, 10:57:46 pm
Educating people is fine. Opposition is fine. Even "rebellion" against the RID is a great idea. But, the finest way to turn people against RID is to support it. Fully. Make Sensenbrenner look like an opponent to RID. Become the poster child for the Act. Being honest about the act, brutally honest, in what it will do. Therein lies the solution to turning people against it before they even know what it is.
Fliers work. Graffiti. Blogs. Letters to the editor. All in support of the RID. One of the primary reasons for the act is to keep out Mexicans and other riff raff, right? And if a person has nothing to hide then a national ID should be nothing to fear, should it? Only people with something they don't wish to get out are against it. Child molestors? Tax dodgers? Terrorists? Support the RID......that's the way to make people take notice.


(http://www.simonjester.org/simonttf.gif)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: UnstructuredAgain on June 29, 2005, 07:18:24 pm
Anything new coming along with this, or did people forget?  I suppose it's hard to hold any momentum after the rage that followed the initial announcements.  Anyone bringing the message to the masses yet?

Peace and Good Day
Title: ID Resist
Post by: T.H.E. Cat on June 30, 2005, 08:40:30 am
Quote
Anything new coming along with this, or did people forget? I suppose it's hard to hold any momentum after the rage that followed the initial announcements. Anyone bringing the message to the masses yet?

I've made mention to several people around me but all I get is blank stares as if to say "What are you talking about".  <_<

It's like anyting else with the sheeple they don't know what they've lost until it's gone.

Cat
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 30, 2005, 04:16:48 pm
Quote
Anything new coming along with this, or did people forget?  I suppose it's hard to hold any momentum after the rage that followed the initial announcements.  Anyone bringing the message to the masses yet?
To the extent that Wikipedia counts as "bringing the message to the masses", I did some of that (rewrote the Wikipedia Real ID Act article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act)). But really, that only reaches the relatively small proportion of Internet users who use Wikipedia.

I spammed my friends about it, and received several unexpectedly sympathetic responses. But even these tended to be of the form "Oh, it's terrible, but it's too late, it's a lost cause."

I expect that many of the state governments will issue strenuous objections, all basically saying "We states refuse to bow down to this blatant interference in states' rights unless the federal government picks up all the costs, in which case we will lick the federal government's boots."
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Lightning on June 30, 2005, 04:47:08 pm
Quote
I expect that many of the state governments will issue strenuous objections, all basically saying "We states refuse to bow down to this blatant interference in states' rights unless the federal government picks up all the costs, in which case we will lick the federal government's boots."
I bet you're right on with this prediction, Mr. Bill.  :angry:

SJ, welcome to TCF!  Are you the SJ I have to thank for the blog referral to Warren Bluhm?  B) :)

In any case, I see your point about "supporting" the Real ID in public...I just wonder if most people would have the brains or initiative to look into the facts long enough to think about the issue independently..aas T.H.E. Cat has found.

Refusal is going to be hell in some ways, but I think it's the only real choice we have.

 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: JustaCaveman on July 04, 2005, 06:49:51 pm
my friend tells me there's "street art" all around Chicago saying "Real ID Supporters" or something.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Junker on July 14, 2005, 05:09:52 am
Sunni et al.'s new site for: http://www.realidrebellion.com/ (http://www.realidrebellion.com/)

(http://rlmcom.com/xr/R-ID-R.gif)

- - -

Then you'll need the RID to register to vote, which also is the list for jury conscription, which means lowered jury hanging. Hmmm.... Mayhaps, it's requirement there can be defeated in court as ... unconstitutional?
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on July 14, 2005, 05:58:51 pm
Quote
Sunni et al.'s new site for: http://www.realidrebellion.com/ (http://www.realidrebellion.com/)

(http://rlmcom.com/xr/R-ID-R.gif)

- - -

Then you'll need the RID to register to vote, which also is the list for jury conscription, which means lowered jury hanging. Hmmm.... Mayhaps, it's requirement there can be defeated in court as ... unconstitutional?
I hit that site the other day after she announced it on a list I carry here.  Lots of good stuff!  I've even grabbed one of the little graphcs there (but I like the one you posted better :-) and linked to it.
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: linuxfan on August 16, 2005, 08:34:41 am
I'm gonna hafta get one of these shiny RealID driver's licenses, since my state's goobermint is too chicken to tell the feds to shove it where the sun don't shine, no matter what any one or group of people do, so i got some ideas for that >:)
Title: ID Resist
Post by: dogsledder54 on August 16, 2005, 10:39:35 am
I just read Patricia Neill's article on issuing permanent ID numbers to politicians, public 'servants' and bureaucrats, http://www.billstclair.com/lodge/RA_980725.shtml (http://www.billstclair.com/lodge/RA_980725.shtml)  and I had an idea. This may not be new, but what's to stop us when asked for a picture ID or social security number, from demanding the same from the person asking for OURS ? It seems only right that we should verify that the officer, clerk, or whoever really IS the person that they claim to be. This could be a major pain in the ass for them, if everyone demanded to see their ID and credentials before showing ours. What do you think ?
Title: ID Resist
Post by: purple kitty on August 16, 2005, 10:04:55 pm
.
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Shevek on August 16, 2005, 10:13:08 pm
Quote
It seems only right that we should verify that the officer, clerk, or whoever really IS the person that they claim to be. This could be a major pain in the ass for them, if everyone demanded to see their ID and credentials before showing ours. What do you think ?
Old news. Many have been there, done that. Google for "Public Servant Questionnaire."
 
Title: ID Resist
Post by: Nightengale on August 16, 2005, 10:42:50 pm
sujuris got is right - "Ultimately it will come down to just saying hell no! Actually it's rather easy, say it with me, HELL NO!"

Compliance in ANY form will only lend credibility to the Real ID demands.  Therefore, do not comply, period.

I advocate massive public awareness, and there are some good ideas on this thread, but when it comes right down to it, compliance in any form is NOT an option, period.

After they passed this law, I threw my DRIVERS LICENSE away.  I'm serious.  I also refuse to give my SSN number to anyone.  I even went to the SSA office and asked for it to be rescinded.  They thought I was crazy (and refused).

Piss on them.

I'm sick of running from these thugs.  What we need is massive disobedience.  Stop complying with everything you don't agree with.  Sure, it's going to cost you something (who said freedom was free?), but that is to be expected.  You're going to have to pay sometime, why not now?

A massive public awareness campaign with a non-compliance protest is my suggestion.  Where and when will each of you draw the line on what .gov is doing to us?  Never?  Or "later" when it gets "worse"?  How bad does it have to be?

Isn't it bad enough already?

Government suceeds in it's mission because we comply in numerous ways.  You all know this, so this is old material - but the question remains, when will you say enough?  After Real ID is effective?  Why then?  Why not now?  Why not take up your protest TODAY before it gets worse TOMORROW?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Delos on September 03, 2005, 11:33:31 am
sujuris got is right - "Ultimately it will come down to just saying hell no! Actually it's rather easy, say it with me, HELL NO!"

Compliance in ANY form will only lend credibility to the Real ID demands. Therefore, do not comply, period.

I advocate massive public awareness, and there are some good ideas on this thread, but when it comes right down to it, compliance in any form is NOT an option, period.

After they passed this law, I threw my DRIVERS LICENSE away. I'm serious. I also refuse to give my SSN number to anyone. I even went to the SSA office and asked for it to be rescinded. They thought I was crazy (and refused).

Piss on them.

I'm sick of running from these thugs. What we need is massive disobedience. Stop complying with everything you don't agree with. Sure, it's going to cost you something (who said freedom was free?), but that is to be expected. You're going to have to pay sometime, why not now?

A massive public awareness campaign with a non-compliance protest is my suggestion. Where and when will each of you draw the line on what .gov is doing to us? Never? Or "later" when it gets "worse"? How bad does it have to be?

Isn't it bad enough already?

Government suceeds in it's mission because we comply in numerous ways. You all know this, so this is old material - but the question remains, when will you say enough? After Real ID is effective? Why then? Why not now? Why not take up your protest TODAY before it gets worse TOMORROW?


nightengale,

stop parroting my posts!

(actually, nice job! yours {ours} is the only answer, methinks!)
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: dogsledder54 on September 03, 2005, 08:26:51 pm
Quote
It seems only right that we should verify that the officer, clerk, or whoever really IS the person that they claim to be. This could be a major pain in the ass for them, if everyone demanded to see their ID and credentials before showing ours. What do you think ?
Old news. Many have been there, done that. Google for "Public Servant Questionnaire."
 
I seem to remember that. excuse me, cuz it was awhile back and I don't remember the details.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Nedda of the Hill on September 08, 2005, 10:39:46 pm

I'm sick of running from these thugs.  What we need is massive disobedience.  Stop complying with everything you don't agree with.  Sure, it's going to cost you something (who said freedom was free?), but that is to be expected.  You're going to have to pay sometime, why not now?

A massive public awareness campaign with a non-compliance protest is my suggestion.  Where and when will each of you draw the line on what .gov is doing to us?  Never?  Or "later" when it gets "worse"?  How bad does it have to be?

Isn't it bad enough already?

Government suceeds in it's mission because we comply in numerous ways.  You all know this, so this is old material - but the question remains, when will you say enough?  After Real ID is effective?  Why then?  Why not now?  Why not take up your protest TODAY before it gets worse TOMORROW?

And this is exactly where I find myself.  If I don't resist now, I never will.  It won't get any easier, in fact, it will get much harder.  Rest assured, the thugs are coming up with ever more ways to make it more painful for you to challenge their authority. 
I can pay the price right now.  Later on, I'll go underground.  Can't do that with a Real ID.


Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Door Number 2 on September 09, 2005, 11:43:57 pm
Quote
...that might appeal to people who wouldn't be caught on the same planet as suijurisfreeman or Delos?

My initial thoughts...
Do everything to call attention to it and how UN-AMERICAN it is (since everyone seems so patriotic now days). We know we won't get into the media, so we would have to get out and beat the streets. Flyers on cars, signs in lawns, T-shirts, bumperstickers. This stuff would have to be eye catching...Bar Codes, Uncle Sam tattooing numbers on citizens, "Don't worry, it only stings for the first few decades.", "Got ID?", Govt workers gossiping about citizen's private info, etc.
That would definatley be something eye-catching.  I could see creating a t-shirt line out of that.

ID has always been a pain in the ass.  I have it when I don't need it and don't when I do.  Too many people are afraid of identity theft, I guess.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Lightning on September 13, 2005, 06:49:32 pm
Welcome, Door Number 2.  Nice quote in your sig line.

Nedda, you've really got something there.  As does Nightengale - welcome to you, too! 

All of you are on the money, imho - NOW is the time to decide how much ghosting and how much agigating (and mole-ing) you're going to do.  And to get doing it.

Questions: what holds you back?  Job and financial worries?  Family responsibilities?  Or something more insidious and personal?  How do you plan to overcome your present situation?  At what point does the need for freedom trump any other considerations?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: dogsledder54 on September 15, 2005, 06:41:48 pm
Well I'm not going to give up my job quite yet. i have no skills that I could make a living with being self-employed. When I want to drive someplace, I must have license plates of some kind. Until EVERYONE drives without them, and the LEOs and court system is overwhelmed (if ever) they will pick off every car without plates. If I need to drive my truck to a nearby town, i just do it, even though it has no plates, because I can travel on unpaved roads around here. (In Nebraska, over half of the roads are unpaved, and not as thoroughly patrolled as the highways, so I can usually get by without plates.) But to go to a largeer town, this won't  work.  There is something to be said for being a few miles from civilization.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: JustMe on September 15, 2005, 07:20:38 pm
Well I'm not going to give up my job quite yet. i have no skills that I could make a living with being self-employed. When I want to drive someplace, I must have license plates of some kind. Until EVERYONE drives without them, and the LEOs and court system is overwhelmed (if ever) they will pick off every car without plates. If I need to drive my truck to a nearby town, i just do it, even though it has no plates, because I can travel on unpaved roads around here. (In Nebraska, over half of the roads are unpaved, and not as thoroughly patrolled as the highways, so I can usually get by without plates.) But to go to a largeer town, this won't  work.  There is something to be said for being a few miles from civilization.

Have you been to any big city? I see cars without plates EVERY time I drive and I always lose count of how many.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Jack21221 on September 15, 2005, 09:49:53 pm
Well I'm not going to give up my job quite yet. i have no skills that I could make a living with being self-employed. When I want to drive someplace, I must have license plates of some kind. Until EVERYONE drives without them, and the LEOs and court system is overwhelmed (if ever) they will pick off every car without plates. If I need to drive my truck to a nearby town, i just do it, even though it has no plates, because I can travel on unpaved roads around here. (In Nebraska, over half of the roads are unpaved, and not as thoroughly patrolled as the highways, so I can usually get by without plates.) But to go to a largeer town, this won't  work.  There is something to be said for being a few miles from civilization.

Have you been to any big city? I see cars without plates EVERY time I drive and I always lose count of how many.

I drive for a living, usually 150-200 miles per day, 6 days a week. I very rarely see a car without licence plates. I'd say maybe one car every few weeks. I had my rear plate stolen once, and it only took the police one day to pull me over for it. I have no clue where you live, but it sure won't work where I live.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: rayray on September 24, 2005, 07:58:20 pm
Believe me, in a big city or small town, those paper temp plates work wonders for stolen vehicles because they are not immediately visible.  It is one thing to run a reflective plate.  The paper plates are the criminal's choice because they can't be run handily.  Don't believe me because I do it.  Believe me because it's true in "the big city" and elsewhere.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: prometheus on September 28, 2005, 05:22:48 pm
*
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Junker on February 06, 2006, 04:06:22 pm
http://www.sunnimaravillosa.com/archives/00000606.html#comments

chauncy said:

Found this online webpage that has a lot more info on Real ID and how to fight it.

http://xsorbit29.com/users5/abolishrealid
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: AnotherArmchair on February 09, 2006, 09:42:24 am
The best suggestion I saw here is kbarrett's--use the initiative petition to fight it in the several states.

As '08 is a campaign year, maybe red, white, & blue bumper stickers with a barcode and "Beast '08."
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: linuxfan on February 11, 2006, 09:53:56 pm
On the stamp idea (i'm sure someone else came up with this idea, but i'm too lazy to read through it all tonight), instead of the swastika, how about the hammer and sickle, a la the USSR? after all, they were just as fascist as the Nazis, with a different political bent. (yes, i know fascism and communism are opposite sides of the political spectrum, but they operated the same, and as my daddy used to say, "If it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it ain't a turkey!")
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: TryingToBeUseful on February 12, 2006, 02:26:44 pm
The existing political spectrum is worthless.   By this I mean the normal spectrum referred to in the mainstream.  To have validity and indeed to make any sense, a two-dimensional spectrum must be measuring some single variable.  For instance an acidity test measures the amount of acidity in a sample.  What variable is the political spectrum measuring?  And what possible variable could communism and fascism have opposite amounts of?  Nationalism maybe, but rest of the spectrum hardly makes sense using that.  Actually, maybe it makes a little sense; "conservatives" are seen as more nationalist/patriotic while "liberals" are seen as more globalist.

The logical thing for a "political spectrum" to measure would be the amount of politicalness.  That is, the proclivity of the sample to seek or engage in political solutions (i.e. coercive solutions) to problems.  On that spectrum, I'm happy to say any such litmus paper exposed to me would have to indicate I occupy the far, far extreme left (or bottom) of the scale.  That is, I feel a total lack of support for all government intervention.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on February 13, 2006, 12:57:24 am
The existing political spectrum is worthless.   By this I mean the normal spectrum referred to in the mainstream.  To have validity and indeed to make any sense, a two-dimensional spectrum must be measuring some single variable.  For instance an acidity test measures the amount of acidity in a sample.  What variable is the political spectrum measuring?  And what possible variable could communism and fascism have opposite amounts of?  Nationalism maybe, but rest of the spectrum hardly makes sense using that.  Actually, maybe it makes a little sense; "conservatives" are seen as more nationalist/patriotic while "liberals" are seen as more globalist.

The logical thing for a "political spectrum" to measure would be the amount of politicalness.  That is, the proclivity of the sample to seek or engage in political solutions (i.e. coercive solutions) to problems.  On that spectrum, I'm happy to say any such litmus paper exposed to me would have to indicate I occupy the far, far extreme left (or bottom) of the scale.  That is, I feel a total lack of support for all government intervention.

I just happened to write this in a post earlier today:

Quote
Fascism and Socialism and Communism are all collectivist ideologies. What blows me away is that people actually sit there and claim that fascism is right wing and socialism is left wing when in fact they're both essentially left wing ideological constructs.

The whole left-right thing is BS,  and then the libertarians came up with this other thing that has four directions,  making a big distinction between two different kinds of collectivism,  when you get down to it.  I always thought it should have two more directions,  "in" and "out" as are they gonna stick their noses _in_ your business or stay out of it...
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on February 14, 2006, 06:57:29 am
So we're all Outies?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on February 15, 2006, 12:33:06 am
So we're all Outies?

Works for me...
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: J. Croft on February 15, 2006, 05:50:49 pm
There are only two options:

1)Sell your house, SUV, almost all your worldly goods and literally head for the mountains and live like Daniel Boone in some remote cave. 

Why?  Because you're NOT going to win a "legal" stand single handedly against the state, they can handle individuals just fine.

Better get used to eating wild game, solitude, harsh climate, the ever gnawing fear some drone of the state will find you and "rescue" you.

2)Make these Free State projects WORK!  Not twenty years down the road-RIGHT NOW!

United action by those who demand Freedom is one of the few things that works against states.  Furthermore, ID Resistance is, apart from Libertarians and in a sense criminals, is as remote a  concept from mainstream 'murikan sheep as... self sufficiency, living debt free, being voluntarily responsible for oneself, family, community, country.

The average 'murikan has no ideal they're enslaved.  If we want converts, if we want to awaken people we need a working, real life operating community-NOW!  We don't have the numbers for getting even a Vermont or a Wyoming so how about a county?  Move there, saturate those communities with our message, win some local elections, fix whatever problems or corruption has been going on before, and then as far as local authority allows institute a Free Society. 

If people had a real life community they could visit and actually see what it's like to be Free, the Free State Projects would have NO problem getting folks to sign up.

THEN, ID Resistance can be viable.



Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: TryingToBeUseful on February 16, 2006, 12:07:19 am
How about Crook County, Wyoming?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Simon_Jester on February 28, 2006, 08:40:39 pm
So what are you supposed to do when REAL ID is here and being implemented? Indiana has already begun their process and hopped in bed with Digimarc. It's a done deal here. Makes you feel like the Borg are at your door.

http://uncivildefence.blogspot.com/2006/02/inevitability-of-real-id.html

Shoot, if you even write about it Digimarc pays you a visit!
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: purple kitty on February 28, 2006, 08:50:29 pm
So what are you supposed to do when REAL ID is here and being implemented? Indiana has already begun their process and hopped in bed with Digimarc. It's a done deal here. Makes you feel like the Borg are at your door.
Just curious, is it possible to put the RFID chips into the license plate registration stickers? Is it something they would try to do? (Imagine the possibilities... literally be able to track your vehicle and find you and pull you over for... anything...)
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Simon_Jester on February 28, 2006, 09:07:23 pm
You're lucky to still be registered in MD, PK, but I cannot imagine that Maryland won't get on board. Fortunately, you have a good edge. I'll be renewing mine before total implementation, thankfully so that may help out a bit, but it won't be going away in Indiana. You know how things operate here! I've pretty much resigned myself to going without a license once the time comes, since I've decided that I am not going to be tagged like livestock.
In regards to your RFID tag in the sticker...yep. I can't see where it would even be moderately difficult for them. The Brits are tagging all of their vehicles, UPS does it here (get behind one of the Browns and look for the "Electronic Tag" logo)...I have no doubt that taggin our vehicles is next. The cops in Indiana already drive everywhere with their radar guns on, they wouldn't even miss a beat to keep their RFID scanners on 24/7.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Simon_Jester on February 28, 2006, 09:53:45 pm
I'd say that 6 out of 10, (or better) of the county, state and city cops I see in Indy and the Republican county north of them keep theirs on all the time. The only reason I notice is my detector is on all the time.  :laugh:
It's made me wonder what the radiological output of these things is...it'd go a long way towards explaining cancer rates.

Fortunately, you can renew your license plates via web here so that may help avoid chipping that way. Fry the chip when it comes in the mail. I'm just surprised at the total silence from all quarters on this.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: purple kitty on March 01, 2006, 03:24:16 pm
Where are the civil liberties organizations? Have the Indiana politicians been real quiet and sneaky about this? I guess everybody is more concerned about funeral protests than RFID people tracking. Go figure.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: thistle on March 01, 2006, 03:55:28 pm
What would happen if someone cracked the card (like they already have) get their hands on one of those scanners that can scan RFID tags (like has already been built) and sat 75ft outside the Indiana BMV and stole the license info of every new license coming out of the building.

Then anonymously publish the info, blog about what you're doing, forward to Drudge Report, Newsmax, some mainstream media...

If enough people got pissed about the inherent insecurity of their new DL's...you might get some more scrutiny of Real ID.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: thistle on March 01, 2006, 03:59:17 pm
Sure, no matter what effect such an action might have wouldn't result in the repeal of Real ID...but you might get the RFID portion amended. And hey, any scrutiny, obstruction, or criticism of Real ID isn't exactly a bad thing...
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on March 02, 2006, 01:25:12 am
So what are you supposed to do when REAL ID is here and being implemented? Indiana has already begun their process and hopped in bed with Digimarc. It's a done deal here. Makes you feel like the Borg are at your door.

http://uncivildefence.blogspot.com/2006/02/inevitability-of-real-id.html

Hell of an article,  that...

Quote
Shoot, if you even write about it Digimarc pays you a visit!

How's that?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on March 02, 2006, 01:29:22 am
So what are you supposed to do when REAL ID is here and being implemented? Indiana has already begun their process and hopped in bed with Digimarc. It's a done deal here. Makes you feel like the Borg are at your door.
I still have a Maryland license and car registration and I had no intentions of switching it over to Indiana when it expires (mostly because of the gobs of paperwork you have to have to get it). Now I definitely won't ever be in Indiana's BMV database. My MD license expires in 2009, who knows what the country will be like then... but perhaps I won't renew it... (my car expires at the end of this year. I plan to drive home to Maryland and renew it there like I still live there. I will continue to do so as long as I know the people living at that address.)

Unfortunately MD and IN seem to share a great deal in terms of their culture...  with the feddies and the bureaucrats and such folks.

Quote
Just curious, is it possible to put the RFID chips into the license plate registration stickers? Is it something they would try to do? (Imagine the possibilities... literally be able to track your vehicle and find you and pull you over for... anything...)

Sure is.  Which had me wondering,  a while back,  whether or not they weren't doing something of the sort already,  since so darn many license plates have become hard to read,  with letters resembling each other too much,  backgrounds obscuring the lettering,  and so forth.  And then I heard about some buy who got hassled because his license place frame (that the dealer,  not he,  put on the car) was obscuring the state's website BS at the bottom!  I think he even got fined for that one.

Quote
I should find a new state. Why did I move here, anyway?

I was wondering, but wasn't gonna ask until you brought it up.  Why did you move there,  anyway?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Simon_Jester on March 02, 2006, 08:32:43 am
So what are you supposed to do when REAL ID is here and being implemented? Indiana has already begun their process and hopped in bed with Digimarc. It's a done deal here. Makes you feel like the Borg are at your door.

http://uncivildefence.blogspot.com/2006/02/inevitability-of-real-id.html

Hell of an article,  that...

Quote
Shoot, if you even write about it Digimarc pays you a visit!

How's that?

Just something I've noticed over time when checking site statistics. Digimarc apparently has someone who checks Technorati leads and then shows up to see what you've written about them. Don't know if that's a daily thing with them or not, just that they  search around to see who's talking about them. Of course they haven't contacted me, or anything...yet. Probably got my name on their list, tho.
In the grand scheme of things it's not as scarey as the FBI guys from Gray Hawk that show up after Claire mentions your blog, tho! :laugh:
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Simon_Jester on March 02, 2006, 08:45:54 am
I think I need to get me a cop detector... I have a tendancy to drive slightly above the speed limit, and I happen to live in that Republican county north of Indy.

Where are the civil liberties organizations? Have the Indiana politicians been real quiet and sneaky about this? I guess everybody is more concerned about funeral protests than RFID people tracking. Go figure.
I wouldn't drive anywhere here without one. Indiana cops have perfected the stealth car.
As for the rest, I don't know. I contacted the LP to see what they were going to say, see if they were going to issue a statement about it but that was a dead end. They apparently don't want to take a stand on this issue, or any other. Odd, too considering the leverage they have at many of the papers and on the radio around here. The ICLU...well, who knows what the heck they are doing. Fighting the prayers issue must've worn them out. And don't get me started on the funerals protest! :angry: Imagine my total lack of surprise that this one passed....
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: purple kitty on March 02, 2006, 09:05:44 am
Quote
As for the rest, I don't know. I contacted the LP to see what they were going to say, see if they were going to issue a statement about it but that was a dead end. They apparently don't want to take a stand on this issue, or any other. Odd, too considering the leverage they have at many of the papers and on the radio around here. The ICLU...well, who knows what the heck they are doing. Fighting the prayers issue must've worn them out. And don't get me started on the funerals protest! :angry: Imagine my total lack of surprise that this one passed....
Yeah, I just shake my head at the ridiculous thinking of people in Indiana. I *did* see a thing on the Real ID act a few months ago on the news.. I think I posted something about it.. dunno where though.. and I don't recall off the top of my head what it said.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Matsje on March 05, 2006, 08:39:56 pm
Here's an ID problem that is happening now as well.
It involves my animals. They not only want my farm premises "registered", but they want every single animal id'd with possible chips.
I been racking my brains trying to figure out how to get around this without having my pets confiscated or being fined for non compliance.
Texas is into it big time this very moment. The program is called NAIS and is under the USDA. Info on their site.
Got any ideas?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Lightning on March 06, 2006, 08:23:57 pm
Just wanted to say howdy and welcome, Matsje.  :mellow:

And, in case you haven't seen it, there's a thread in progress (http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=8133.0) on NAIS over in the Ghost forum. 

This topic is a very serious concern for many of us here and elsewhere.  Didn't want you to think anyone was ignoring the urgency of what you posted. 

As for solutions, well, I suspect they're being worked out - but not talked about much, at least not yet.  You'll find that most folks here don't put much faith in political (i.e. petitioning, etc.) solutions.

Sorry to hear that you're facing the mess already where you live.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: ff42 on March 07, 2006, 04:01:28 pm
Lightning,

Your hyperlink has the word http in it twice, so my browers (Firefox) sends me to microsoft.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Lightning on March 07, 2006, 05:47:52 pm
Thanks for catching that error, ff42.  I've fixed it now and it worked with my Firefox.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: allat1 on March 08, 2006, 04:48:32 pm
Good!  But you have got to know were being spied on right now, eh?

Also, we've already been tagged with the DVD card?

However, any more, and yes, count me in.

Remember, I was Pat Henry, years ago? 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: purple kitty on March 09, 2006, 12:38:25 pm
Yeah, I just shake my head at the ridiculous thinking of people in Indiana. I *did* see a thing on the Real ID act a few months ago on the news.. I think I posted something about it.. dunno where though.. and I don't recall off the top of my head what it said.
Hey, here is the summary I had posted about the news segment on RealID in Indiana...

Quote from: myself
So, today on the news they had a story about real ID and how it will affect Indiana, so I thought I'd watch it.. here's what I saw...

1. state bent over so the feds can give it to them up the ass.
2. state kinda complaining about money, but still in fully bent-over position. state must send plan to feds before they get any money.
3. indiana senator was one of the sponsors. woohoo. I know I didn't vote for him. he said that it acts like the patriot act (or something like that... not good, whatever it was) and that it was put into the war spending bill because it was "related to national security." ooookkkk... he also said that they "don't want to restrict lives." really? funny... because that's not what it looks like.
4. guy from ACLU (I think) got on and said that people will want to see that it will make them more secure. I don't think the people have a clue, but whatever..
5. The news people actually called it a federal ID. They didn't sugar-coat it. They said that driver's licenses will be changed to conform to the new federal ID standards and mentioned that there were privacy concerns.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Eric on March 09, 2006, 07:28:23 pm
Claire comments today about the "other shoe" dropping on the National ID.  And now, to rub salt in the wound we have this item  http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover030806.htm 

Barf.

J.E. Andreasen
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 05:39:48 am
There are only two options:

1)Sell your house, SUV, almost all your worldly goods and literally head for the mountains and live like Daniel Boone in some remote cave. 


2)Make these Free State projects WORK!  Not twenty years down the road-RIGHT NOW!

United action by those who demand Freedom is one of the few things that works against states. 


Well J Croft's got it mostly right.  You don't really have to sell the house, SUV, and move to the woods to ghost out.  Read JJ Luna's How To Be Invisible for more on that topic. 

But he is correct in that the only true hope of stopping the Real ID juggarnaut is for freedom lovers to ORGANIZE GEOGRAPHICALLY in a state.

The way I see it you've got three options

1)  Get the eff out of the USA, make a new life in another country, and seek ways to obtain a second passport so you can renounce your US citizenship (for tax and military-slavery purposes). 

2)  Refuse to accept the new ID.  Make plans NOW to become self-employed and obtain a pre-Real ID DL that will buy you some time.  I would recommend getting an AZ drivers license.   Supposedly they are good for 25 years, and hopefully would be grandfathered in.   

And last but not least,

3)  LAY DOWN FOR THE GOVERNMENT LIKE A GOOD JEW and get your Real ID.  Make sure to comply with all future government requests so that you don't ever have to experience any discomfort in the future.

PEOPLE IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE GODDAMN COFFEE.  May 2008 IS SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT TIME FOR AMERICANS THAT ARE GOING TO PAY MORE THAN LIP SERVICE TO THE CAUSE OF FREEDOM.    You want freedom?  Then START LIVING as a free person dadgummit!   FREE PEOPLE do not submit to enumeration in the form of centralized national ID systems.  FREE PEOPLE do not have to ask permission from the government to get a job, carry a weapon, travel by car, open a bank account.  FREE PEOPLE do not hand over an average of 40% of their earnings to the government.   FREE PEOPLE do not allows themselves to become enslaved in a debtor economy, nor do they allow themselves to be used as tools of violence in immoral and aggressive wars.

If you do stoop to accepting Real ID, then you've SOLD OUT plain and simple.  Your material comfort is more important to you than freedom is.  Pretty cut and dried. 

If you don't have the guts, the resolve, the spine to either pack up and move abroad, or stay here and refuse to cooperate, then you might as well just throw in the towel and learn to accept and enjoy slavery.  You're already a lost soul at that point.  If you think fighting the police state is too hard NOW, or requires too much sacrifice then I've got news for ya;  it's only going to get worse.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Tin-Man on June 02, 2006, 07:56:26 am
If you do stoop to accepting Real ID, then you've SOLD OUT plain and simple.  Your material comfort is more important to you than freedom is.  Pretty cut and dried. 

If you don't have the guts, the resolve, the spine to either pack up and move abroad, or stay here and refuse to cooperate, then you might as well just throw in the towel and learn to accept and enjoy slavery.  You're already a lost soul at that point. 
<sigh> :rolleyes:
You know...there may come a time when day-to-day existence (everyday things like buying food, etc.) becomes virtually impossible without either having this ID or having access to the services of someone else who does.  Just this morning in the other thread on this subject you mentioned the idea of using nominees to do things like open bank accounts for you.  Presumably this "nominee" would have to actually have this slave-ID that we all rightfully disdain so much. 

So my question would have to be...why the fuck would someone risk their neck for you if the only thing they're getting in return is being called a spineless sellout?  In other words...it's maybe not a good idea to go about alienating the very people you may need one day.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 08:35:03 am
Along with Tin-man, I think Freebird needs to read up on Claire's ideas on Agitators, Ghosts, and Moles.

For every front-line soldier, you need ten folks supporting him.  They need someplace safe for him to sleep, eat, trade, and run.  They need support, and funds.  How many folks who pay their taxes and have legal IDs stepped up to support a front-line freedom fighter when he was arrested in Ohio?  They don't count?  How many offered to help Suisjurisfreeman, though he didn't want it?  What legal and law-abiding persona funds this bandwidth and domain for TCF?  No value there?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Lightning on June 02, 2006, 09:18:41 am
Good points, Tin and Scar. 

Freebird, your rant over in GD was much more to the point and action-oriented, and you didn't insult anyone in that one.  ;)

I understand the despair and anger, I really do.  And I'm coming to realize that there are lots of unexpected folks out there who're beginning to feel the same. 

I was with some people from the West Coast last week, and I happened to say "Shiny!" to some comment somebody made.  Then I explained that the expression comes from a one-season TV wonder called Firefly.  Well, don'tcha know, two women in the group exchanged knowing looks and smiled.  Then we got on the subjects of precious metals and government abuses and lots more.  Boy, I found myself a couple of sister Outlaws.  On a business trip, no less.

It's happening more and more - people are beginning to wake up as the boot gets daily heavier.  But the process takes time - and effort - and not everyone will achieve it before May 2008.

We'll still want them with us even if they do take a bit longer than we'd like, though.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 11:01:53 am
You know...there may come a time when day-to-day existence (everyday things like buying food, etc.) becomes virtually impossible without either having this ID or having access to the services of someone else who does.

 Just this morning in the other thread on this subject you mentioned the idea of using nominees to do things like open bank accounts for you.  Presumably this "nominee" would have to actually have this slave-ID that we all rightfully disdain so much. 

So my question would have to be...why the fuck would someone risk their neck for you if the only thing they're getting in return is being called a spineless sellout?  In other words...it's maybe not a good idea to go about alienating the very people you may need one day.  Just a thought.
Your typical nominee is someone whose worldview is still so warped from govt schools and MSM (Main Stream Media) propaganda that they don't know any better.   Funny thing is, when I offer people $$ to serve as a nominee, I never seem to have problems finding a volunteer!

People who are regulars on this forum however *should* know better, and need to be called on the carpet.  I'm sick and tired of all this talk about freedom.  The time for talk is past.  The time for action is NOW.  That means getting out of the system, and getting prepared (housing, arms, funds, food) or voting with your feet and leaving the US.   

The only thing that's going to change the totalitarian course of this country is massive civil disobedience.   Can you *imagine* what would happen if 300,000 people decided to stop filing income tax returns?  Or 300,000 people took the license plates of their cars, and started driving without licenses?   There would not be enough room to arrest everyone, oh wait a second, I take that back, there might be enough room if all the ex-military base turned "detention centers" become operational. 

If you decide to submit to the Real ID, I just want to make it clear that you have indeed sold out your freedom for a percieved gain in material comfort, or personal safety.  But I don't have to tell you Ben Franklin's quote on that subject...
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 11:11:37 am
Along with Tin-man, I think Freebird needs to read up on Claire's ideas on Agitators, Ghosts, and Moles.

For every front-line soldier, you need ten folks supporting him.  They need someplace safe for him to sleep, eat, trade, and run.  They need support, and funds.  How many folks who pay their taxes and have legal IDs stepped up to support a front-line freedom fighter when he was arrested in Ohio?  They don't count?  How many offered to help Suisjurisfreeman, though he didn't want it?  What legal and law-abiding persona funds this bandwidth and domain for TCF?  No value there?
Let's just face reality folks.  There are not enough agitators to make a difference, and it's not going to sway public opinion appreciably.  If you cannot sleep, eat, trade, or run in the U.S without constant fear of arrest, then why don't you make the decision to stop living like an animal/fugitive slave, and salvage what's left of your dignity by living abroad where you don't have to put up all this police state crap? 

It's fascinating to watch first hand the submission mentality at work.  Now I am starting to see why so many Jews in Germany ended up in death camps.  They probably just weren't either cognizant of the rise of tyranny, or thought that each incremental advance of the police state was not yet enough to warrant going underground or leaving the country.

So a tax-paying slave funds the bandwidth and domain for TCF.  whoopee.  Like this couldn't be done by an expat, and done better by using an offshore setup for the love of crikey.   Correct me if I'm wrong, me thinks this site is hosted somewhere in Jacksonville, Florida.  I'm sure that offers a lot of protection these days with the "PATRIOT Act" and secret no-knock searches.   What If the FBI decides to raid the datacenter and confiscate the servers, using the data here to prosecute "domestic terrorists" in court?   Careful what you say people.    You say that it's unlikely, but all of the mechanisms are there, the tyrannical power is there.  Just waiting to be abused by some future demagogue.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Tin-Man on June 02, 2006, 12:00:28 pm
Your typical nominee is someone whose worldview is still so warped from the gov't propaganda that they don't know any better. 
I see.  So it makes one a slave to beg the state for the right to eat, but it's perfectly okay to use someone else to do your begging for you, casually dismissing the person providing this valuable service as beneath contempt in the process. 
Quote
People who are regulars on this forum *should* know better, and need to be called on the carpet.  I'm sick and tired of all this talk about freedom.  The time for talk is past.  Now is the time for action.  That means getting out of the system or voting with your feet and leaving the US.
Yes, we know.  We get people like you here on occasion who busily go about telling everyone around them how they're quislings/wrong/stupid/whatever and how there is only one way to be truly free and to help the cause of freedom.  Only ONE way.  The irony and the lack of logic inherent in that premise doesn't seem to bother too many of them, so why should you be any different?  [shrug]

You may have noticed earlier in this thread some posts by sui and Delos.  Both of these are men that I like and have a great deal of respect for.  There is no doubt in my mind that both of them would starve in the streets before not only begging permission from the state to eat, but having someone else do their begging by proxy. 

If you decide you're hard enough to do without the help of others who remain in the system to varying degrees, more power to you.  If you can pull that off, feel free to come down on moles, agents, nominees, and beards all you want to.  But don't you ever DARE ask one of them for help.  Not to open a bank account, not to make a purchase, not for a ride, not for a place to stay if (and probably when) the state makes it all but impossible for you to live anywhere else and you can't manage the climb over that "defensive" barrier being built or make it through the checkpoints on the way to the airport on your own.  Not to mention the fact that anonymous ways to purchase airline tickets aren't going to be around forever.

EDIT:  Also, you might want to look into the concept of thinking about what you want to say before making a post.  That would do away with the necessity of having to make drastic content changes up to a half hour later, making it look as if the person responding is avoiding certain points.  Just another thought.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 12:03:00 pm
Good points, Tin and Scar. 
It's happening more and more - people are beginning to wake up as the boot gets daily heavier.  But the process takes time - and effort - and not everyone will achieve it before May 2008.

We'll still want them with us even if they do take a bit longer than we'd like, though.

Let me ask you this.  Once these people have rolled over and submitted their biometric data to the Real ID program, do you really think it's really going to be any easier to opt out of the system after that point?    All of you people who plan on rolling over for Real ID in 2008 are really going to have a hard time getting out of the system if and when you finally do develop the backbone & resolve to extract yourselve from the system. 

This is about CONTROL folks.   Accepting the Real ID is giving the government an incredible new level of CONTROL over you.  Prepare NOW before it's too late.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 12:30:02 pm
Freebird, is it possible that people could have different priorities, conflicts of interest, mitigating circumstances, or plain old different ideas of how to go to hell than you do?

Oh I know if any of those are stopping us it's because freedom isn't a real priority for us.

Sure I'll admit that.  I'll admit that there are things, not material, more important to me than freedom.  I guess I have to hand in my membership badge and decoder ring.



Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 12:38:32 pm
I see.  So it makes one a slave to beg the state for the right to eat, but it's perfectly okay to use someone else to do your begging for you, casually dismissing the person providing this valuable service as beneath contempt in the process. 


Yes, we know.  We get people like you here on occasion who busily go about telling everyone around them how they're quislings/wrong/stupid/whatever and how there is only one way to be truly free and to help the cause of freedom.  Only ONE way.  The irony and the lack of logic inherent in that premise doesn't seem to bother too many of them, so why should you be any different?  [shrug]

You may have noticed earlier in this thread some posts by sui and Delos.  Both of these are men that I like and have a great deal of respect for.  There is no doubt in my mind that both of them would starve in the streets before not only begging permission from the state to eat, but having someone else do their begging by proxy. 

If you decide you're hard enough to do without the help of others who remain in the system to varying degrees, more power to you.  If you can pull that off, feel free to come down on moles, agents, nominees, and beards all you want to.  But don't you ever DARE ask one of them for help.  Not to open a bank account, not to make a purchase, not for a ride, not for a place to stay if (and probably when) the state makes it all but impossible for you to live anywhere else and you can't manage the climb over that "defensive" barrier being built or make it through the checkpoints on the way to the airport on your own.  Not to mention the fact that anonymous ways to purchase airline tickets aren't going to be around forever.

EDIT:  Also, you might want to look into the concept of thinking about what you want to say before making a post.  That would do away with the necessity of having to make drastic content changes up to a half hour later, making it look as if the person responding is avoiding certain points.  Just another thought.

blah blah blah...listen I don't beg for anything, so get off it  If you are still working under a social security number, you're begging permission from the state to earn money.  If you are driving on a license you are begging the state permission to exercise your right of travel.  If you use a US bank account that is linked to your SSN, you are begging the state permission to conduct financial business.  If you show ID to fly domestically, you are begging the state permission to travel on a commercial airline.   THAT'S what begging is, in case the distinction was lost on you.   

And I'm not asking for anyone's help, so don't get your panties in a bunch issuing me stern warnings that I DARE not ask anyone here for help.  This sounds like your own personal complex more than anything else.  I'm just some guy here on a forum speaking the truth, unvarnished, and non-sugarcoated.

Look, all I'm asking is that people just be honest with themselves if they decide to be a good Jew/Gay/Gypsy etc. and get the Real ID.  That's all.   Repeat after me  "I am a slave, and enumeration is a "good thing"....just ask Martha!"
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on June 02, 2006, 12:39:22 pm
*
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 12:46:05 pm
I'd like to add that it is a damn sight easier for someone to draw and enforce a line in the sand when they are only beholden to themselves for that line.  When you add a family into the mix, the whole family needs to be in agreement on the line if they are to continue to function and survive together.  Families necessarily have different priorities than single individuals and less leeway to operate outside of the law.  An immigrant can work and live outside the law without grossly endangering his family.  Our families are already here and we must consider the consequences that may be brought against them as well as ourselves.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 12:47:21 pm
Freebird, is it possible that people could have different priorities, conflicts of interest, mitigating circumstances, or plain old different ideas of how to go to hell than you do?

Oh I know if any of those are stopping us it's because freedom isn't a real priority for us.

Sure I'll admit that.  I'll admit that there are things, not material, more important to me than freedom.  I guess I have to hand in my membership badge and decoder ring.

Scarmig, I would like to ask you one simple question.  What specific "last straw" event will cause you to either leave the country
or become an outlaw?   Have you given much thought to this?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 12:49:58 pm
I'd like to add that it is a damn sight easier for someone to draw and enforce a line in the sand when they are only beholden to themselves for that line.  When you add a family into the mix, the whole family needs to be in agreement on the line if they are to continue to function and survive together.  Families necessarily have different priorities than single individuals and less leeway to operate outside of the law.  An immigrant can work and live outside the law without grossly endangering his family.  Our families are already here and we must consider the consequences that may be brought against them as well as ourselves.

Oh Puh-LEASE.   Millions if illegal immigrant families manage to live outside the system every damn day.  What's your excuse?   I love so-called illegal immigrants for this very reason.  They are operating outside the system, and create a market for services that do not depend on govt numbers.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 12:57:25 pm

Scarmig, I would like to ask you one simple question.  What specific "last straw" event will cause you to either leave the country
or become an outlaw?

There are many.  Indeed, I am an outlaw already.  I've been active, participating outlaw for many moons now.  In other ways I've been an agitator for many more seasons.  In other ways I'm a mole.

If my outlawry is pursued, me and my family are in agreement that it will be time to disappear.  If my agitation causes the govenrment to target my children, it is time to disappear.  The burrowing is designed to insulate the agitation and the outlawry so that I can continue them.

It is okay if I have a multi-pronged approach to life and freedom, isn't it?

Quote
   Have you given much thought to this?

Years. 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 12:59:30 pm


Oh Puh-LEASE.   Millions if illegal immigrant families manage to live outside the system every damn day.  What's your excuse?   I love so-called illegal immigrants for this very reason.  They are operating outside the system, and create a market for services that do not depend on govt numbers.

And many more simply send American money home to their families while they take the risks here.

Once again, different solutions for different people's priorities.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 01:07:03 pm

Scarmig, I would like to ask you one simple question.  What specific "last straw" event will cause you to either leave the country
or become an outlaw?

There are many.
It is okay if I have a multi-pronged approach to life and freedom, isn't it?
Yes that's entirely ok to have a multi-pronged approach.  But you did not answer the question.  What specific event, or combination of specific events will be the tipping point for you?   
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Bill St. Clair on June 02, 2006, 01:21:53 pm
Personaly, I view REAL ID as an incremental change to the existing driving license scheme. I don't like it, but I bought into the scheme long before I became politically aware, and I doubt I will threaten my family's lives by refusing to go along. Then again, something might push me over the edge and cause me to go "trolling for bacon" (I've defined this phrase before, but will not do so again).

freebird, it isn't your place to decide what other people's lines in the sand should be. Nor to push for information about them. I appreciate that REAL ID is important to you. Good. You will fight that battle. Others will pick the battles that are important to them.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 01:51:30 pm
Please explain exactly how a person would be "theatening their family's lives" by becoming an American Refusnik.  This sounds especially rediculous in the face of millions of so called illegal aliens who somehow manage to support their families and live their day to day lives without legal documentation.  Again, what's *your* excuse?  That "I'm just too darn white"?

Also, I never advocate direct confrontation with state enforcers (or anyone else for that matter) unless you have reason to believe they will seriously injure or murder you otherwise.

I am far from deciding what people's line in the sand should be.  I'm merely pointing out the uncomfortable truths that are concomitant with the submission of one's own biometric info to the REAL ID apparatus.  Don't kid yourselves people, BIOMETRIC NATIONAL ID IN COMBINATION WITH A "CHECKPOINT SOCIETY" IS THE END GAME OF THE TOTALITARIAN POLICE STATE.   This is a HUGE step towards tyranny.  Hear me now, believe me later. 

If people on the TCF forums can't even commit to refusing the national ID, then that speaks volumes about how hopeless the fight for freedom really is.   I mean really, what in the TARNATION is it going to take BEYOND that before people start to rebel?!!  RFID chips under your skin?  A national DNA database?    Somebody please help me figger this one out!
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 01:56:23 pm
Real ID may be the end game for the totalitarian police state, but the totalitarian police state is not the end game for me.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 02:09:16 pm
Real ID may be the end game for the totalitarian police state, but the totalitarian police state is not the end game for me.

Scarmig, why do you continue to dodge the earlier question?  What specific events, or combination of events would be the last straw for you?   You claim to have thought about it many years, so this should be easy to answer.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 02:44:18 pm


Scarmig, why do you continue to dodge the earlier question?  What specific events, or combination of events would be the last straw for you?   You claim to have thought about it many years, so this should be easy to answer.

1.  I did answer the question.  Apparently you are unwilling to recognize my answer.
2.  It's not easy.  If it were easy, it would not be an exercise in almost daily reevaluation.
3.  How many children do you have and what ages?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 02:51:46 pm


Scarmig, why do you continue to dodge the earlier question?  What specific events, or combination of events would be the last straw for you?   You claim to have thought about it many years, so this should be easy to answer.

1.  I did answer the question.  Apparently you are unwilling to recognize my answer.
2.  It's not easy.  If it were easy, it would not be an exercise in almost daily reevaluation.
3.  How many children do you have and what ages?

Scarmig, I asked you:

"What specific "last straw" event will cause you to either leave the country
or become an outlaw?"     

Your reply:   

"There are many."

I guess it doesn't get much more specific than that!   Whoo-boy, ok you got me there.  I give up.

I have no children.  I know moving to another country with kids makes it much harder.  But somehow, some way, millions of immigrants to this country seem to make it work.  What do they have, that most Americans lack these day?  In a word. Hunger.  They are hungry and willing to sacrifice and work hard.   They have commited themselves. Most Americans are so soft these days that they can't imagine giving up their comforts to move abroad. 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Bill St. Clair on June 02, 2006, 02:52:53 pm
Biometric identification coupled with a country-wide database makes identification cards harder to forge. It doesn't make the people enforcing the program any harder to bribe, however. Not does it make their database immune to hacking.

Regular checkpoints on the roads are one of my lines in the sand. I will die, hopefully with plenty of tyrant company, soon after they are instituted in my neighborhood. They are not necessarily coupled with REAL ID, however, though a universal identification standard will make it harder to evade those checkpoints.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 03:01:18 pm
Biometric identification coupled with a country-wide database makes identification cards harder to forge. It doesn't make the people enforcing the program any harder to bribe, however. Not does it make their database immune to hacking.

Regular checkpoints on the roads are one of my lines in the sand. I will die, hopefully with plenty of tyrant company, soon after they are instituted in my neighborhood. They are not necessarily coupled with REAL ID, however, though a universal identification standard will make it harder to evade those checkpoints.

Bill, I invite you to come out West to Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas.  Those checkpoints are already here.  They are supposedly for illegal immigration, but in practice with will f**k with you for whatever reason they can find, if they feel like it.  Perhaps this will provide some insight as to why I am so adamant about this issue.   It's already here. 

I repeat:  The police state is already here people.  Most of you have already got a good finger lickin' TSA taste of it at commercial airports.  But when you can't even DRIVE ON AN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY IN AMERICA without being funnelled into semi-permanent roadblock-commie-checkpoint and asked for ID well...you're starting to feel the totalitarian jackboot on your neck, up close and personal. 

Personally I do not understand the mentality of people who vow to shoot it out with the JBT's instead of just leaving the country in search of freer pastures.   The world is a big place!  you CAN find freedom outside of this country that many of us love so much, while at the same time despising the undeniably sinister changes that are taking place here.

Again, I plead with those of you that are considering throwing your life away in violent confrontation with the leviathan state:  Instead of a futile and one-sided direct confrontation, how about moving your person to some other land where you can live and actually REALIZE a higher degree of freedom.   
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Bill St. Clair on June 02, 2006, 03:06:04 pm
Bill, I invite you to come out West to Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas.  Those checkpoints are already here.  They are supposedly for illegal immigration, but in practive with will f**k with you for whatever reason they can find, if they feel like it.  Perhaps this will provide some insight as to why I am so adamant about this issue.   It's already here.  The police state is already here people.  Most of you have already got a good taste of it at the nations airports.  But when you can't even DRIVE on an INTERSTATE HIGHWAY IN AMERICA without being funnelled into semi-permanent roadblock-commie-checkpoint, well...you're starting to feel the totalitarian jackboot on your neck, up close and personal. 

Thanks for the invitation, but no thanks. You've got regular checkpoints where you drive, and you're worried about ID cards? No comprende. Of course, talking about taking out checkpoints and actually doing it are vastly different. We'll see if my balls are as big as my mouth if it happens here.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 02, 2006, 03:09:52 pm

Scarmig, I asked you:

"What specific "last straw" event will cause you to either leave the country
or become an outlaw?"     

Your reply:   

"There are many."

I guess it doesn't get much more specific than that!   Whoo-boy, ok you got me there.  I give up.

Yeah.  Especially if you bother to read the rest of my post.

I hate to shatter your dreams of bullet-point confessions, but I'm not getting any more detailed than what you can read between the lines.  After all, the consequences of my actions affect others than myself.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 03:19:40 pm
Bill, I invite you to come out West to Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, or Texas.  Those checkpoints are already here.  They are supposedly for illegal immigration, but in practive with will f**k with you for whatever reason they can find, if they feel like it.  Perhaps this will provide some insight as to why I am so adamant about this issue.   It's already here.  The police state is already here people.  Most of you have already got a good taste of it at the nations airports.  But when you can't even DRIVE on an INTERSTATE HIGHWAY IN AMERICA without being funnelled into semi-permanent roadblock-commie-checkpoint, well...you're starting to feel the totalitarian jackboot on your neck, up close and personal. 

Thanks for the invitation, but no thanks. You've got regular checkpoints where you drive, and you're worried about ID cards? No comprende. Of course, talking about taking out checkpoints and actually doing it are vastly different. We'll see if my balls are as big as my mouth if it happens here.


Lately I have decided to avoid the regular checkpoints by taking a northern route.   I've been through them 6-7 times now, and showed my passport as ID the one time I was asked, gritting my teeth and biting my tongue, though not visibly.  They usually inquire about your citizenship or where you were born, and also where you're coming from, where you're going.

Again, I believe that violent resistance at any checkpoint is going to be counter productive to the freedom movement, unless you are certain you will be killed or permanently disable if you do not violently resist.  Morally, you are only justified in bringing force to bear in the latter two scenarios.

but moreover, once people start shooting back at checkpoints, or suicide bombing them, they will immediately be tarred in the MSM as extremists and/or domestic terrorists.  Thus all subsequent checkpoint resisters will be held as criminals to be abused by JBTs in the public mind.   Not a very effective strategy.

Contrast this to Terri Bressi's efforts.  You can read more about it at www.checkpointusa.org   I am mulling around ways to develop some grassroots resistance to the checkpoints, tapping into driver's anger at having to wait in line for a half hour or more, on an Interstate highway, just be allowed to proceed traveling.

Also to clarify, I am worried about ID cards *precisely because checkpoints are proliferating* everywhere in American society.  I would wholeheartedly agree that checkpoints are one of the most important police state measure that must battled head on, in order to swing the pendulum back towards more freedom in America.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Jeffersoniantoo on June 02, 2006, 03:41:32 pm
Quote
Thanks for the invitation, but no thanks. You've got regular checkpoints where you drive, and you're worried about ID cards? No comprende. Of course, talking about taking out checkpoints and actually doing it are vastly different. We'll see if my balls are as big as my mouth if it happens here.

Speaking of "regular" checkpoints...has anyone seen the commercial where the guy pulls up to a checkpoint and asks, "What's going on? Some kind of accident?"  I think it is for an insurance company...

Anyway, the officer responds, nice as you please, "No accident, just a ROUTINE CHECKPOINT."  ROUTINE!?!  In Amerika???!!!! 

The conditioning is continuing.... :(
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: purple kitty on June 02, 2006, 04:53:14 pm
Firebird...

I assure you that everybody on TCF is very much aware of RealID and I am sure they have all made their personal decisions about it. While we all [at least I hope all!] think RealID is a horrible thing and we very much wish it would go away, some may have chosen to follow along, for now at least. Please respect this decision, as I am sure it has been considered extensively and that there is nothing less than the best reason. I think that many are still deciding how, exactly, we will handle RealID on a personal level, and I haven't seen anybody here hope to be first in line to get their shiny new ID. Whatever we may choose, you should respect that decision, not that it's really any of your business what we decide, anyway.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on June 02, 2006, 05:07:00 pm
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Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 06:07:09 pm
Contrast this to Terri Bressi's efforts.  You can read more about it at www.checkpointusa.org   I am mulling around ways to develop some grassroots resistance to the checkpoints, tapping into driver's anger at having to wait in line for a half hour or more, on an Interstate highway, just be allowed to proceed traveling.

Let me tell you something, freebird.  Terry Bressi is a friend of mine (and I can even spell his name correctly).  He is someone I *greatly* respect, and he is someone who will influence me ORDERS of magnitude more than you because he treats people with respect.

Ah yes....the ole "Senator you're no Jack Kennedy" schtick.  Nicely executed.  Kudos. 

Listen, I'm very proud of your ability to spell...but let's get something straight.  My job here today is not to gently caress peoples egos and support them in their decision to sell out their freedom in a devils deal with the state for a specious bargain for security.   My job is to BITCH SLAP all of the REAL ID Rollovers into reality and make it very clear what they are doing to themselves, and the movement.   I can see that spelling errors don't get by you, but did it escape your attention that this is posted in the "AGITATOR" forum?   That's what I'm doing, agitating.

With regards to treating people with respect...I'm glad you brought that topic up.  That's something that I'd like to talk about.   
Here's a concept, how about all the arm-chair freedom fighters start treating THEMSELVES with some self-respect, by pledging to REFUSE TO ACCEPT REAL ID in ANY FORM WHATSOVER?

Now that takes some committment.  That takes some balls.  That takes some courage.  That takes some ingenuity. 

Talking about freedom does not. 

I'm talking about a committment to taking ACTION.  Not a committment to more talking. 

So far I have not heard a single, "HELL YEAH FREEBIRD!  There's no way in HELL that they're going to force ME to accept that NAZI CRAP!"   It's really kind of disgusting.    I would have expected a much more enthusiast response in a place like this.  But instead I hear a lot of hemming and hawing, and plenty of excuses and cautious circuitous replies for why they're going to bend over and take it from the state, once again.   What gives?!!    One would think that of just about ANY concievable subset of the population, people that were fan's of Claire Wolfes writings would be THE FIRST to stand up and say "I am not a number!".   The fact that no one seems to be publicly taking this stand, except for myself and a handful of others, would seem to spell almost certain doom for the freedom movement in America.

Maybe the down boys and girls are mostly lurkers.  In reality, they're probably out there actually LIVING freedom rather than sitting here on message boards and talking about how bad things continue to get. 

People that respect THEMSELVES tend to refuse being enumerated and controlled like a piece of livestock.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on June 02, 2006, 06:15:52 pm
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Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Joel on June 02, 2006, 06:56:59 pm
On my own way to the ignore button, a few observations:

Quote
My job here today is not to gently caress peoples egos and support them in their decision to sell out their freedom in a devils deal with the state for a specious bargain for security.   My job is to BITCH SLAP all of the REAL ID Rollovers into reality and make it very clear what they are doing to themselves, and the movement.

Yet you've chosen to do this in the choir balcony.  Visiting a Baptist church and railing about the fate of sinners in the hand of an angry god isn't agitation, freebird.  It's one of the less respectable forms of conformity.  If you want to agitate, go do it at freerepublic.  Let us know how that works out for you.

Quote
Here's a concept, how about all the arm-chair freedom fighters start treating THEMSELVES with some self-respect, by pledging to REFUSE TO ACCEPT REAL ID in ANY FORM WHATSOVER?

Now that takes some committment.  That takes some balls.  That takes some courage.  That takes some ingenuity. 

I disagree.  Doing it requires commitment, balls, courage and ingenuity.  Pledging to do it is just talk.

Quote
One would think that of just about ANY concievable subset of the population, people that were fan's of Claire Wolfes writings would be THE FIRST to stand up and say "I am not a number!".   The fact that no one seems to be publicly taking this stand, except for myself and a handful of others, would seem to spell almost certain doom for the freedom movement in America.

The fact that no one seems to be publicly taking this stand might also indicate that 'publicly making a stand' is considered by some a very poor way to find the freedom we seek.  Maybe we've given up railing about it, and we're just doing it.  Maybe we don't want to discuss it with you.

Quote
People that respect THEMSELVES tend to refuse being enumerated and controlled like a piece of livestock.

If it makes you feel any better, on this point we are in complete agreement.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on June 02, 2006, 07:12:51 pm
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Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 07:44:56 pm
Agitating involves accomplishing something

WRONG. 

Agitate   
   
   1.  To cause to move with violence or sudden force.
   2. To upset; disturb: was agitated by the alarming news.
   3. To arouse interest in (a cause, for example) by use of the written or spoken word; debate.

Furthermore, I never once used the term "stupid sheep" to describe anyone, nor did I make the claim that anyone "owed the freedom movement" anything.   I did however make the claim that people who rollover and get a "REAL ID" are sell outs that are hurting the freedom movement.

Anyone suffering from Outrage Fatigue?

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30624

Or do you lay awake at night?

http://anti-state.com/blog/2006/04/08/while-you-were-sleeping/
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 02, 2006, 07:49:31 pm
If you want to agitate, go do it at freerepublic.  Let us know how that works out for you.
That is an excellent idea, I have just signed up for an account at the forums.

Btw, when I speak of pledging to refuse REAL ID, I am assuming that people are going to in fact honor their word and stick to the pledge.   Goll-EE guess it's time to break out the ole dictionary once again for the literarily challenged.

pledge (plĕj) pronunciation
n.

   1. A solemn binding promise to do, give, or refrain from doing something: signed a pledge never to reveal the secret; a pledge of money to a charity.
 
At present I am actively refusing to participate in the the current DL apparatus.  I am in fact walking the walk.    So here's to me and my balls!  haha

And lastly, everyone take note of Mr. DeWitt's common sense proclamation:  The Agitator forum IS NOT TO BE USED FOR AGITATION!! 

ROFL....man you just can't make this stuff up.  Awesome dude.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Bill St. Clair on June 02, 2006, 09:44:44 pm
For now I'll just say thank you, Bill St. Clair, for the Ignore button.  I'm not interested in a self-appointed prophet bitch-slapping me or anyone else, thanks.

Actually, I think Debra found that one, but I appreciate the kudos.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Kirsten on June 02, 2006, 10:04:06 pm
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Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on June 02, 2006, 11:12:51 pm
...
But somehow, some way, millions of immigrants to this country seem to make it work.  What do they have, that most Americans lack these day?
...

They have this country to come to. Most other countries don't "look the other way" the way they do here and a family from this country would not be able to walk across the border to Mexico or Canada, undocumented and find a place to live and a way to support their family.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on June 03, 2006, 01:28:09 am
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Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 03, 2006, 10:59:47 am
When you have to get permission from the government just to live your life, you are no better than a slave.  You have become a subject of the state.

Therefore REAL ID holder=SLAVE

To a certain extent, those of you that are using the government assigned social security number to obtain drivers licenses, jobs, and bank accounts, and anything else are also slaves.  If you do not submit to using the number, all of a sudden it becomes much more difficult to go about your daily life.   

Technically, there is no law requiring an American to "have" an SSN, although I usually avoid that specific terminology for two important reasons

1)  it's not "your number"...it's the governments, or more accurately the Social Security Administration's.
2)  You have practically zero control over it.  True ownership means 100% control.

But just try to go live your day to day life without an SSN.  It's not that easy.

When you accepted the SSN, knowingly or not, you sold out your freedom.  You did this so that you could live more conveniently.   You traded freedom for velvet slavery, so that it wouldn't be so hard or impractical to live. 

Most of the time this happens to people before they have a firm intellectual grounding in what freedom actually is.   True freedom means people don't have to get permission from the government just to quietly live their life.

And then one day, they might become exposed to the principles of freedom, have an intellectual awakening, and realize what they did.  One can become very angry and experience feeling of hopelessness when they realize the trap that they have been led into.

If we study the example of the encroachment of the social security number into the lives of the American subject/citizen, we can learn an important lesson about government enumeration programs.   In this case what is still technically optional, and in days of yore a mere retirement number that was explicitly "not to be used for indentification purposes" has become virtually mandatory.  The state tells you out of one corner of their mouth, that there is "no law requiring anyone to have an SSN."  Yet in practice, the government has made it damn near impossible to live life in America without it. 

"Give up my SSN-linked JOB?  Give up my SSN-linked DRIVERS LICENSE?  Give up my SSN-linked BANK ACCOUNT?   HOW AM I GOING TO GET BY WITHOUT THESE THINGS?"

The steps towards SSN slavery were gradual.    Tax withholding, tax filing, bank accounts, employment, drivers licenses, fishing licenses, marriage licenses, medical insurance, you name it.  And let's not forget "credit".  Mission creep epitomized.   The point I wanted to make is that REAL ID will be no different.  It will be required in ways and for purposes that none us today will have even imagined.   If you think it's too hard to get out of using an SSN NOW, just wait until REAL ID becomes commonplace.  It's called "game over". 

So if you decide to be a good obedient citizen/slave and submit to REAL ID, the power and the control that go with that indentity card will have been handed over to the state once again, without a fight, just like they wanted it.   And eventually they will find a use for it, as they always do. 

To the tenderfoot freedom seeker, earning income, driving a car, cashing checks, etc sans SSN may seem like insurmountable barriers.  But as one learns, and becomes more schooled in the ways of the world, as well as those who actually know how to LIVE freely, you discover that there are ways around these obstacles.   All that it takes is the commitment, and the desire, to make it happen.

Refusing to be enumerated is probably THE MOST IMPORTANT STEP that you can take in your journey towards freedom.  Secondary only to building wealth and knowing how to structure yourself financially.  When both of these steps have been made correctly, you have robbed the government of it's power to control you, and you have done YOUR PART in withdrawing the financial support that the life sucking, wealth destroying, parasite-to-humanity leviathan state depends on in order to continue its plunder, deception, and outright murder of those who resist.

To those of you with the courage and commitment to refuse enumeration, I salute you.   To everyone else, enjoy your daily helping of velvet slavery.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 03, 2006, 11:13:48 am
...
But somehow, some way, millions of immigrants to this country seem to make it work.  What do they have, that most Americans lack these day?
...

They have this country to come to. Most other countries don't "look the other way" the way they do here and a family from this country would not be able to walk across the border to Mexico or Canada, undocumented and find a place to live and a way to support their family.

This is true to a certain extent.  But I wasn't necessarily referring to Mexico or Canada. 

Most of the time what happens is that the breadwinner will move to the new country, establish a beach head, and start sending money home.  Eventually he/she moves the rest of their family out to the new country.

If you try to get into another country legally without any money, and looking for a job, it's probably going to be tough.  If you can demonstrate some savings, and have the moxy to start your own business, then usually it's a much different story.  If starting your own business is just not your style, the best option would be to find a company that will hire you to work in the destination country, and let them deal with all the immigration and relocation work.

If you are single person, it's not too difficult to find work under the table in just about any western country, although your standard of living will probably be that of a student.  But it's a start.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: nurseflo on June 03, 2006, 04:15:42 pm
OK, Freebird.
 Let's say you are the "average Joe".  You have a house, a job, a family.  How will you provide for these things (and especially for the family) if you resist RealId?    They need food, shelter, medical care, etc. RealId will make obtaining those things almost impossible without your driver's license.  Living like a student really isn't an option when you have children.
 Not trying to be difficult here, just looking for some concrete suggestions.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on June 03, 2006, 08:57:06 pm
I've been giving this thread some thought. I know freebird's (aside - you can always copy/paste people pseudonyms, so you don't get them wrong) delivery is somewhat rough around the edges. But shooting the messenger is never polite. No matter his delivery, there is a point here that seems to be getting glossed over with all the hurt feelings going around. The point is this.

If enough people refused to accept the national ID, they would simply have to go fuck themselves.

freebird's post here (https://erte.hmdnsgroup.com/~tcftalk/clairefiles/index.php?topic=9659.0) was not so abrasive.

He just really wants to see some action.

Sure, everyone has their own priorities vis a vis liberty. Sure everyone has their own line in the sand. But if they want my "biometrics" they're going to have to take them from me by force or fraud. I don't remember what brought it up (oh, yeah, she was getting the packet for her "temps"), but I was discussing this with my daughter last week, before freebird brought this thread back up or posted his other thread on RealID. I told her I really wasn't sure what was going to happen if this went through, because I would not be renewing any driver's license that came complete with RealID and/or biometrics in the bargain. I know that is going to make it a lot harder on me. I'm thinking, what would Patrick Henry say about RealID? For me, personally, it would make it so much easier to fight this if others would agree that this was a line in the sand. If 10% of the population told them to put their RealID where the sun don't shine... However, I don't think it is productive or beneficial to demean people who choose not to fight it. Everyone has their own reasons for what they do or don't do. There are already quite a few people who choose to drive without licenses and many of them successfully fight tickets for it in courts of law. That's another choice you have to make for yourself.

We have time to prepare. Wayne Hicks of ALFII had a proposal for an accident liability co-op of some sort to take the place of insurance for people who wanted to be responsible for the financial impact of a possible accident but did not want to have a license, since most insurance companies think you need to have a license. I'm not sure if that went anywhere. However, that is the sort of thing that could be developed with the time we have before it goes into full effect. If enough people work together.

Once again, I know we all have different priorities, but it sure seems as if there should be some things that everyone who puts a high value on individual liberty see as common lines in the sand. And I frankly can't understand how someone with a monopoly on the initiation of force taking your biometric identifiers by force, threat of force or fraud is not a common line to be drawn.

Enough for now. I have to drive my daughter to the movie theatre (using my current license to drive, which does not prove I know how to drive or am capable of driving.)
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Tin-Man on June 04, 2006, 01:52:28 am
However, I don't think it is productive or beneficial to demean people who choose not to fight it. Everyone has their own reasons for what they do or don't do.

I said pretty much all I had to say here right around the time it turned into a personality squabble, but this is getting to the heart of it for me. 

Note that I never said what *I* planned to do in this case.  Didn't say I was getting one, didn't say I wasn't.  And I won't likely be saying so here, because I don't generally broadcast things like that for the whole world to see. 

Now there are some people who think Real I.D. is a great idea.  We all know that.  Their are some who think it's not so bad.  Their are some who don't like it, but don't see it as the absolute horror that most TCF folk do.  And their are some who do see it that way but, based on their lot in life and their personal circumstances, simply aren't willing to risk their freedom (such as it is, being slaves and all :rolleyes:),  families, and/or lives over it. 

BUT...this last group can still make some damn fine allies and provide types of support functions that most "real" outlaws living frugally in a yurt in the middle of nowhere never could.  Claire herself has pointed out (http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/00000600.html) (and Scar also alluded to it above) that when a "real" outlaw gets in a fix and needs support, usually in the form of funding, it comes for the most part from people fitting this description...people inside the system who lead ostensibly normal lives, with valid driver's licenses, who have "real" jobs and pay their taxes on time. 

Then, of course, their are others who realize that they, due to their particular skillsets, can do more damage from *within* the system than they can from the outside.  I just think it's incredibly foolish to demean and insult these people, or to discount the contributions they make to the cause of freedom (not that they owe it anything, mind you).  Or to put it another way, to bite the hand that might one day be called upon to feed you.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: nurseflo on June 04, 2006, 02:19:19 am

In no way am I trying to shoot the messenger. I have no ill will toward freebird. I understand (I think) what he is saying.  All I mean to say is, OK, he is very strident about his position and in  his opinions regarding those who do not do as he does.  All I ask is: what in actual terms is he going to do?  It's easy to rant.  Lead the charge!
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 04, 2006, 11:57:31 am
OK, Freebird.
 Let's say you are the "average Joe".  You have a house, a job, a family.  How will you provide for these things (and especially for the family) if you resist RealId?    They need food, shelter, medical care, etc. RealId will make obtaining those things almost impossible without your driver's license.  Living like a student really isn't an option when you have children.
 Not trying to be difficult here, just looking for some concrete suggestions.

Nurseflo,

Great question, I would love to discuss practical methods for how to resist Real ID. 

1)  First off, if the average Joe does not yet have passports for themselves, or their family, they should get one IMMEDIATELY.  If you apply for a passport now, you should be able to get one before they start adding RFID chips which is scheduled for Oct 2006. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport   MAKE SURE TO LEAVE THE FIELD FOR THE SSN BLANK!  Many people say this is a requirement, but that is crap.  unless the law has changed since 2002, it is not.  I applied for a passport post-9/11, did not fill in the field, the agent accepting my application didn't even mention it, and I received a passport six weeks later, no problem.  Now this was done in San Diego, at one of the "city service centers", and not the post office.  So if you can find some type of govt agency that is more of a franchise type operation, or perhaps even a private business that accepts passport applications, you will probably get less hassle over the SSN.  Legally you are required to give separate notice to the IRS, or else you face a $500 fine, but I've never given notice and have yet to hear from the IRS.   See http://www.cpsr.org/issues/privacy/ssn-government#passport for more info.

It usually takes about 6 weeks to receive your passport.  Once obtained, the passport will function as your primary identity document and to the best of my knowledge does not yet contain any biometric features, someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.  Passports are good for ten years and will serve as an escape route if you need to leave the country.  Do not skip this step, this is critical.

2)  Once you have your passport, you will no longer need your drivers license for anything but driving.  If you don't have to drive, then you have beat REAL ID for the next ten years.  If you must drive, then you have more work to do.  The "hard core" option is to refuse to renew your license when your current one expires.  Do not try this unless you have taken the time to educate yourself about how to defend yourself from the sham known as the "justice system".   This is dicey because you are playing on their turf, the system is corrupt, and they typically just ignore their own rules when the rules become inconvenient to them.  So much for the "rule of law". 

Just don't have any illusions about how much justice you'll really get out of the system.  If you haven't had much contact with it, or read up on it much, you may be in for a rude awakening.  Defending yourself in court is probably a losing proposition unless have above average legal skill/instincts, and you have been outspoken enough to develop a certain amount of notoriety, such as suijruisfreeman, and Terry Bressi.   Notoriety is power to a certain extent, and will give you a certain level of protection.  More so than some anonymous citizen.   

Being prepared to record any encounters with law enforcement using audio and video equipment is always a good idea.  You'd be amazed at how differently these people will treat you when they know they are being recorded. :)   Most people will ask "Then what's to stop them from taking the recording and destroying it?"  Most LEO's know that destruction of evidence is a serious crime which will serve as a deterrent in many cases.

I highly recommend reading Marc Steven's "Adventures in Legal Land" if you have not already done so.  This book is mind blowing and will provide you with some some powerful legal "jiu jitsu" style techniques that you can use to fend off bureaucratic attacks.  I use the term bureaucratic attack to refer to any supposed "crime" that the state wants to drag you into court for, where it is impossible to prove damage to someone's person or property.  "Driving without a license" is just one of many such "crimes".   

If you don't want to deal with the repercussions of driving without a license, I would recommend traveling to a state such as Arizona to obtain a "lifetime" drivers license that does not expire.  Do this before they implement REAL ID of course.  http://www.azdot.gov/mvd/faqs/scripts/faqs.asp?section=dl#32

3)  Food can be bought with cash anywhere, and some of it can be grown in your own garden, so I don't see this as being as issue for the time being.  Shelter in the form of a rental property can be obtained without an SSN linked credit check by dealing directly with the property owner and offering 6 month's rent in advance.  Landlords love to see that cash up front, trust me.  Their primary concern is if you'll be able to pay the rent, so they won't have to make up the difference out of their own pocket to pay the mortgage.   Having 6 months rent to offer demonstrates that you have the wherewithal and/or financial discipline to make for a responsible tenant.  If you live in an inflated residential real estate market such as the east or west coast, and own your own home, give serious consideration to selling your house and renting for a few years until prices correct.  Do some googling for the most inflated bubble real estate markets.  If you live in the midwest, or country, it make make more sense to hold on to the property.  But definitely begin the process of educating yourself about how to get all of your property out of your own name, and into that of an LLC.  For additional wealth protection, the LLC can be owned by multiple trusts, and a foundation.  This strategy is known as structuring and used by many wealthy families.   The idea is to get your property owned by legal entities that are not directly linked to you, but which you still maintain control over.

4)  Medical insurance:  If you are firm with the insurance company and do not back down, these days you can usually get coverage with a policy number other than an SSN.  Cite identity theft as your main concern, and let them know that they are crazy if you think you're going to let them have the SSN the government assigned you.  If any company or govt agency asks for an SSN, I ALWAYS ask "Is this required?  And if they answer yes, I then ask "Great! Can you please show me where I can find a copy of this requirement in writing?"    That will usually shut them up, or get you to a supervisor.    The biggest problem is that if you are working under an SSN, your employer's HR dept will usually give the medical insurance company the SSN, unless you object in advance.  Again, refuse to divulge the SSN citing identity theft concerns, which for several of the past years has been the nations fastest growing crime.  Most people are aware of the danger now, and will understand.

5)  That leaves your children.  If they are under 18 and have been issued an SSN, have them immediately petition to have it revoked when they turn 18.  I believe that you have one month to file the paperwork, after they turn 18.  Since Americans are not legally recognized as adults before they are 18 years of age, they are also not able to legally contract, thus there never was a valid contract with the Social Security Administration when they were issued a number.   You need to take advantage of this if you wish for your children to avoid being branded with the number.  Assuming that your kids will still want to drive, you are once again facing the chokepoint of the American identification control grid.  I don't have an easy answer for this.  Trying to get a state DL w/out an SSN is dang near impossible, many states are clamping down on the religious exemption loophole.  I would still try this, and keep trying it at as many different state DMV's are you able to hit in your state of choice, until someone says yes.  Do some googling to find stories about other parents that are trying to get drivers licenses for their kids w/out using an SSN.

Most auto insurers require a valid DL before they will provide coverage.  I have heard that Progressive Auto is an exception to this.  And there may be other new offerings on the market, if REAL ID backfires and enough Americans reject it and decide to keep driving without a license.   

Earning income w/out an SSN will also be a big issue for your kids.  The absolute best way around this is to have them start their own business.  I recommend having them read J.J. Luna's eBook Skip college and go into business for yourself, to get their mind thinking about making a living this way.  http://www.canaryislandspress.com/index.cfm/page/Books/#skip

Barring the entrepreneur route, have them seek ways to work for a company as an independent contractor, instead of an employee.  When the company inevitably asks for an SSN so they can rat them out on the 1099 form, your children can honestly reply that "they don't have one" (assuming they were never assigned, or have revoked their SSN).  If they have been issued an SSN, and it's too late to revoke it, (like me) no worries.  I tell people that "I don't use one".  If they press I say "it's just for spiritual/religious reasons", and ALWAYS say this with a smile on my face, and with confidence!  Some will be intrigued and want to know more.  Some will think they still have to have an SSN. 

The employers biggest fear is usually that of drawing any extra unwanted attention from the IRS, and then having their business audited.   Be up front with them, and tell them that you are aware of this.  Jokingly ask, "well you don't have anything to hide do you? hahahaha"  To defuse the situation.  I don't have a link to reference this, but you can re-assure them that the IRS fine to the employer for not including the an SSN with a 1099 is something like $50 (can someone please verify this?)  Offer to pay this fine yourself if they get dinged.

Another tack is to say you want to work an an independent contractor for tax purposes, which most business owners will inherently understand.  Remind them of the money, paperwork and hassle that you will be saving them by not working as a full fledged employee.  Be mindful that this can backfire if the employee is your only "client".  I believe you need income from 4 or more clients to keep yourself and your employer out of trouble with the IRS.  So pick up some side jobs over the year.  Send out a few invoices, done deal.   It's pretty hard for the IRS to track you however once you stop using an SSN.   Just make sure your children don't pull the idiot of move of not paying any taxes, and then cashing all their checks against a personal US Bank account that is setup in their name, and tied to an SSN.   Or spending any appreciable amount of money on credit cards, which again are tied to an SSN.  Use cash and money orders for everything, buy pre-paid credit cards when you need a CC number.  I recommend Privacash, American Express gift cards, and Websecret (which has sadly been discontinued)

We The People Foundation  http://givemeliberty.org/ also has some resources for how to stop employer withholding from your paychecks. 

If I've left anything out, please let me know.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: padre29 on June 04, 2006, 12:50:33 pm


Perhaps a way around the auto insurance requirement (and coinciding DL requirement) one can simply form a LLC and title your car to the LLC and insure it through the LLC.

If one is really hardcore about it and do not mind spending the coin, simply apply for a newbie car insurance policy. If one has no license (yet) then they will issue insurance.

Food is curious to me, why food? If you mean the "save a buck" cards that the stores issue today. Simply fill out the application with whatever you would like. "John Q Public" for instance.

Most schools also offer the option of not releasing records upon request, I would definitely file a notice that my children's records are not to be released without your permission. Most colleges offer this option for instance.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 04, 2006, 01:02:49 pm
Perhaps a way around the auto insurance requirement (and coinciding DL requirement) one can simply form a LLC and title your car to the LLC and insure it through the LLC.

If one is really hardcore about it and do not mind spending the coin, simply apply for a newbie car insurance policy. If one has no license (yet) then they will issue insurance.

Food is curious to me, why food? If you mean the "save a buck" cards that the stores issue today. Simply fill out the application with whatever you would like. "John Q Public" for instance.


I forgot to mention the LLC vehicle titling and registration strategy, this is def. the way to go, thanks padre for pointing that out.  It's harder to find insurance companies that will provide a policy for a company owned car however, and many times they will still want to have the name(s) of who is going to be driving the car. 

Regarding the grocery store "shopper loyalty" cards and programs, every program that I've personally come across allows the customer to punch in a phone number in lieu the card.  So I use the number from Tommy Tutone's song "Jenny (867-5309)"!  Just put in your local area code, viola! You'd be surprised how many times this works.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on June 04, 2006, 03:27:24 pm
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Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 04, 2006, 04:42:29 pm
But if they want my "biometrics" they're going to have to take them from me by force or fraud.

I hate to say it, but they already have biometrics on you if you have a current license.  The term is intentionally vague, but height, weight, eye and hair color ALL qualify as biometrics. 

True, but when was last time anyone who visited a state drivers licensing agency was actually weighed on a scale, measured against a wall, or had the roots of their hair inspected to verify hair color?  When has this type of biometric information ever been digitally recorded by a machine or device?  I have not had this experience, nor heard of anyone else who has.  If someone else has, I'd be interested in hearing about it.   

If the DMV requires a fingerprint, like Kalifornia, you can monkeywrench the reader by putting glue on your fingertips.  If it's an ink print, like many banks require for non account holders, give your thumb a rotational twist before lifting your thumb from the check.  This will smear the print, and make it useless is most cases.  I do this every time I cash a check at bank the account is drawn on,  and the clerk never even notices it. 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 04, 2006, 09:42:15 pm
And if freebird had posted in the spirit of helping agitators instead of agitating them, several people who now have him on ignore would be able to read and use this information.

Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 05, 2006, 12:59:32 am
Oh well, c'est la vie, I'm sure they don't have much to learn from a rude SOB like me anyways.   ^_^
Scarmig, I believe it was you who said the following a couple of years ago.

Quote
People who love muscle cars bicker about cameros and mustangs all day.

People who love gardening bicker about planting cycles and gardenias.

People who love liberty bicker about xarchism and philosophical ideals.

We bicker about the things we love.

I thought that was a gem of a quote, and quite insightful. 

And so I am hardest on the people that "make up the church choir" so to speak.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: nurseflo on June 05, 2006, 01:03:16 am

Thanks, Freebird.

Nurseflo
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 05, 2006, 07:19:53 am

And so I am hardest on the people that "make up the church choir" so to speak.

It's just my opinion that opening with your suggestions instead of pissing on the dinner table first would have a more positive effect and might have empowered and emboldened folks to choose an option and run with it.

Flies, vinegar, honey and all that.

I don't disagree with your stand, but I strongly disagree with your approach.  How telling is it that you and I were a stage shy of a flame war when we agree with each other?


Now, here's where I disagree with you on the significance of Real ID.  It's still a piece of plastic.  It can still be lost, cut, or burned.  It can be carried, or not.  It can be forged or not.  It can be bought and sold as easily as a fiat dollar.  But you take that Real ID, and you require it be an implanted chip, and you've done something far more significant than link up 50 license databases on common elements, many of which are already linked voluntarily by the states themselves.  You make that Real ID so you can't drop it, lose it, or selectively carry it and things get nasty.  Then you have totalitarian policing.  As long as I can leave my Real ID at home (I already have one see, as my state sold us down that river before I woke up) I still have some power over who knows me and where I am.

So here's my additional suggestion to folks who are in states who's driver's licenses are already shared with other states and/or have biometrics embedded into the ID.

Fake it now while everything is in a relative state of disarray.  Rent a PO box and use the physical address of the post office as your address.  Or a mail drop.  Or an apartment address (since apartments have so many transient folks it's not unusual to have outdated addresses).  Change one element of your license at a time over the time remaining until it isn't accurate.  Of course, you abandon any friendly state reminders of registration and license renewal, but that's a minor inconvenience.  Fake your fingerprint now, change your eye color.  Many states allow changes online, so you can simply log in and change yourself.  At this point in time, they don't really care as long as you're paying.  Get dyslexic with your SSN.  Suddenly gain a lot of weight.  Learn two signatures one for the "real" you and one that you want to deny one day.  Individually none of these are very big, but put together they can cause confusion.

I can damn near guarantee that when it comes time to implement Real ID, they will simply upload all their current data, so all the "errors" that you create now will be instantly alive in the Real ID database.  It will propogate across the whole system that way.  Create junk now, and they'll load junk into it.



Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: ripsnort on June 05, 2006, 09:42:06 pm
 Freebird, you say:
"True, but when was last time anyone who visited a state drivers licensing agency was actually weighed on a scale, measured against a wall, or had the roots of their hair inspected to verify hair color?  When has this type of biometric information ever been digitally recorded by a machine or device?  I have not had this experience, nor heard of anyone else who has.  If someone else has, I'd be interested in hearing about it."

DMV photography in most, if not all states, is digital and can be used in facial recognition systems.  Some states are already doing facial recognition cross checking.  Isn't that biometrics?   

You also say:

"If the DMV requires a fingerprint, like Kalifornia, you can monkeywrench the reader by putting glue on your fingertips.  If it's an ink print, like many banks require for non account holders, give your thumb a rotational twist before lifting your thumb from the check.  This will smear the print, and make it useless is most cases.  I do this every time I cash a check at bank the account is drawn on,  and the clerk never even notices it."

Fingerprints technology has also gone digital.  I am not sure to what extent. And I do not know to what extent your anti actions would fool a digital fingerprint system.  Do you?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: SouthernPatriot on June 06, 2006, 11:39:08 am
I am new here and this is my first post here. I've been reading this post in segments as time allowed me and finally after 3 days I am finished. What a relief. First off, I agree with most of the posters here. Usually writing to our congresscritters gets us nowhere but the States are the only way to stop this a large-scale level so beg we must - it's our only hope. NH started us off with passing a bill (well, sort of) and MT has also. (well that's what i've heard, not seen any evidence of this though.) And Kentucky and one other state - can't remember have already passed resolutions to have the law repealed. So, I'm sure by 08' there will be a divided country just like before 1861, free states and Real ID states. We must drive the states to noncompliance. That is America's last hope.

On an individual level, true, it may hurt to refuse it but when was freedom ever free? On the other hand, those of us with families and jobs etc. do need to take that into consideration. I'm single so not an issue for me. I won't get one, ever - family or not, but w/out a family to endanger it's a lot easier to both say and do. Of course, if you keep your family safe by complying now, when your line in the sand comes (which I hope all of us have one) they will be endangered so in my opinion you may as well make that line right now while it's easier rather than when it becomes harder and more difficult to resist. And, if you keep them safe now then there will be their freedom to pay when they grow up. Is that what you want for them? To live ina totalitarian police state. Or as a free individual outside of that state? It's up to you, of course, and I have feelings both ways but tend to take the side that we should refuse National ID at all costs. Of course, if you're a mole, keep it and keep helping those who have already gone underground. Moles do have a place so those keeping it aren't necessarily traiters to the 'freedom movement' but are just taking their own path.

freebird, you said:
"Again, I plead with those of you that are considering throwing your life away in violent confrontation with the leviathan state:  Instead of a futile and one-sided direct confrontation, how about moving your person to some other land where you can live and actually REALIZE a higher degree of freedom."

I am an American. I was born an American. I will live an American. I will die an American. I will not run, I will not hide (well, maybe I wil...) and I will NEVER stop fighting. But if you do run, please come to Wyoming with me. We can live freer there and with other Americans who value freedom as much as we do.


Also, I am in the very beginning stages of putting up a liberty website aimed at increasing individual and political liberty for Wyoming and Real ID will be a very big issue in it. That is, getting WY to refuse to comply like NH's law would've done, as well as passing a resolution to have it repealed. Anyone in or coming to WY are welcome to help/volunteer in any way they want, and even those elsewhere are invited to help, especially with the Real ID section of the site. If interested, please PM me. I'll give more details to anyone interested but I do need some help with this so anyone interested please get in contact with me. Especially people who have experience with convincing freedom-loving congressmen to write bills (such as opposing real ID) or even who have much experience or luck with communication with congressmen are especially needed. I know there's not that many of you here but if there are... As I progress, I'll post another offer for volunteers under the FSW section of the site. Until then, peace. (and yes i will post between then and now).

J
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Jack21221 on June 06, 2006, 01:43:09 pm
I'd like to recommend a great book to freebird... How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

The stuff actually works.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Joel on June 06, 2006, 01:56:53 pm
 :laugh: Aw, leave him alone.  His heart's in the right place.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Erin on June 06, 2006, 01:58:51 pm
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Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 06, 2006, 02:55:21 pm

DMV photography in most, if not all states, is digital and can be used in facial recognition systems.  Some states are already doing facial recognition cross checking.  Isn't that biometrics?   


Fingerprints technology has also gone digital.  I am not sure to what extent. And I do not know to what extent your anti actions would fool a digital fingerprint system.  Do you?

Neither the answers.com dictionary entry, or the wikipedia entry for biometrics makes specific mention of photographs, although it does mention facial geometry.  Whether or not it's possible to derive facial geometry from a digital photograph is a question for someone more knowledgeable about biometrics that myself.   

"metric" is from the latin word metricus, which means relating to measurement, so biometrics is the practice of measuring specific characterics of a persons body.   Whether or not a photograph constitutes a "measurement" that is easily verified by computer is subject to debate IMO.

Lastly, if you feed a digital fingerprint system garbage, (as in a glue gummed print) it will not be able to make a match with your true fingerprint.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 06, 2006, 04:22:54 pm
It's just my opinion that opening with your suggestions instead of pissing on the dinner table first would have a more positive effect and might have empowered and emboldened folks to choose an option and run with it.

Now, here's where I disagree with you on the significance of Real ID.  It's still a piece of plastic.  It can still be lost, cut, or burned.  It can be carried, or not.  It can be forged or not.  It can be bought and sold as easily as a fiat dollar.  But you take that Real ID, and you require it be an implanted chip, and you've done something far more significant than link up 50 license databases on common elements, many of which are already linked voluntarily by the states themselves.  You make that Real ID so you can't drop it, lose it, or selectively carry it and things get nasty.  Then you have totalitarian policing.  As long as I can leave my Real ID at home (I already have one see, as my state sold us down that river before I woke up) I still have some power over who knows me and where I am.

Scarmig, your criticism about my approach is fair, and I understand where your coming from.  The events of the last five years in particular, in combination with the mass psychosis and denial of the country in general, is seriously  starting to drive me loco.   So my apologies for any offense taken, part of that was some necessary venting and blowing off steam.

Now, with regards to the significance of REAL ID.   Yes it is still a piece of plastic, which is not yet branded, surgically implanted, whatever on one's person.   You claim that people still have the option of selectively carrying the card.   I would submit that in reality that is simply not going to be the case for the vast majority of Americans who are almost totally dependent upon the automobile, and do not live in communities where alternative forms of transport are a viable option.   

It's just like the SSN.  By law nobody in America is "required" to have one.  But from a practical standpoint, the government has made it nearly impossible to live a "normal" life here without one.  You need one to get a drivers license, open a bank account, get a job, get credit, take out a loan, etc.   

It's kind of like the government saying "every person has a right to take big deep breaths of fresh air"   while at the same time mandating breathing permits for everyone that wants to inhale/exhale out of anything but one nostril at a time.  If you want to breathe through your mouth, or both nostrils, then you need to get a license, or else face imprisonment, fines, if caught.     Technically, you are still able to take big deep breaths of fresh air, but from a practical standpoint, you're really not. 

To re-iterate, the primary reason I am so adamant about refusing REAL ID is that it represents a wholly unacceptable concentration of real new power in hands of the federal gov't.    This new power is derived from newly harvested biometric information from the American populace (assuming that most people rollover and submit to REAL ID) in combination with the drivers licensing control grid.   Americans that refuse to be biometrically enumerated, will either have to give up driving, or risk fines and imprisonment. 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 06, 2006, 04:34:49 pm
I am an American. I was born an American. I will live an American. I will die an American. I will not run, I will not hide (well, maybe I wil...) and I will NEVER stop fighting. But if you do run, please come to Wyoming with me. We can live freer there and with other Americans who value freedom as much as we do.

SouthernPatriot. 

I still maintain that it is illogical to sacrifice one's own life in a lopsided direct violent confrontation with the leviathan state, unless your own life was in immediate danger and there was a high likelyhood that you would be killed anyways, if you didn't resist.     There are other places outside of America that one can live freely, without being under the jackboot of the growing Amerikkan police state.   

It appears to me that you are still somewhat psychologically invested in the theology of the nation state, to the point where it is still part of your identity.   The nation-state is a political dinosaur that is going down whether people realize it yet or not.  It is doomed to extinction by fundamental shifts in power made possible by technology, which will destroy the ability of the state to extort revenue from its citizens.  So why let yourself be prematurely  murdered by it, when you can safely wait things out somewhere else as it collapses from its own weight into bankruptcy?   I recommend reading "The Sovereign Individual" to gain a better understanding of this topic.

In case anyone is curious, the only point at which I will engage in armed struggle against the state is when two important conditions are met

1)  It is impossible to survive without being enumerated.
2)  The govt has made it impossible for me to exit the country. 

When that happens, I'll grab my rifle and meet you at the front....Red Dawn style baby.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on June 06, 2006, 07:14:43 pm
Liberty Round Table started a No NID (http://www.libertyroundtable.org/projects/nonid.intro.html) project a good while (years?) back.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: ripsnort on June 06, 2006, 09:20:14 pm

DMV photography in most, if not all states, is digital and can be used in facial recognition systems.  Some states are already doing facial recognition cross checking.  Isn't that biometrics?

Neither the answers.com dictionary entry, or the wikipedia entry for biometrics makes specific mention of photographs, although it does mention facial geometry.  Whether or not it's possible to derive facial geometry from a digital photograph is a question for someone more knowledgeable about biometrics that myself.   

"metric" is from the latin word metricus, which means relating to measurement, so biometrics is the practice of measuring specific characterics of a persons body.   Whether or not a photograph constitutes measurement is subject to debate IMO.

Freebird, You missed my point on the type of digital photography that DMVs are using and facial recognition systems.  The digital photo systems DMVs are using ARE used for facial recognition systems.  Some states  NOW have facial recognition systems in plane, and more states are in the process. 
And I'll add that yes, facial recognition systems are a form of, one of the most effective forms, of biometrics.
Anyone who has their picture on their drivers license maybe in a facial recognition system, and if they don't it probably will be within the next few years as more states put their DMV pics in facial recognition systems.
No pic on my license!
 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 06, 2006, 10:13:10 pm
Freebird, You missed my point on the type of digital photography that DMVs are using and facial recognition systems.  The digital photo systems DMVs are using ARE used for facial recognition systems.  Some states  NOW have facial recognition systems in plane, and more states are in the process. 
And I'll add that yes, facial recognition systems are a form of, one of the most effective forms, of biometrics.
Anyone who has their picture on their drivers license maybe in a facial recognition system, and if they don't it probably will be within the next few years as more states put their DMV pics in facial recognition systems.
No pic on my license!   
I do not dispute that facial recognition systems are a form of biometrics.  The only problem (or benefit depending on your perspective) is that the technology sucks donkey dong.   There are a slew of articles documenting the failures so far here:
http://www.epic.org/privacy/facerecognition/

Therefore your assertion that facial recognition systems are "one of the most effective forms of biometrics" could not be further from the truth. 

How effective any system can be which relies on digitized drivers license photos is subject to debate.  Nevertheless, I recommend making the biggest, stupidest, ugliest, most contorted face possible for any police mugshots.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: padre29 on June 06, 2006, 10:20:09 pm


Err uhh,

Perhaps this might help, every new police car in a decent size agency not only has a mulit fucntion laptop including recording capabilities, they also come with wireless printers. Distort your face or whichever, it won't matter.

Perhaps it may be better if you fish through a mega thread on this forum (I have forgotten whcih one) that acutally gives advice on how to not use "super glue on the finger tips" and use something a little more appropriate to keep oneself private.

Good Luck.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: ripsnort on June 07, 2006, 07:44:34 am
Freebird,
    Facial recognition systems are improving as fast as computer technology 10 years ago.  A new biometric - skin printing - (from digital photos) - has now been incorporated into facial recognition systems.  The resulting accuracy can differentiate between identical twins.
    You do bring up the interesting point of: to what extent can the state require someone to maintain a certain facial expression while being photographed.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: SouthernPatriot on June 07, 2006, 08:38:58 am
The 'inser
I am an American. I was born an American. I will live an American. I will die an American. I will not run, I will not hide (well, maybe I wil...) and I will NEVER stop fighting. But if you do run, please come to Wyoming with me. We can live freer there and with other Americans who value freedom as much as we do.

Quote
SouthernPatriot.

I still maintain that it is illogical to sacrifice one's own life in a lopsided direct violent confrontation with the leviathan state, unless your own life was in immediate danger and there was a high likelyhood that you would be killed anyways, if you didn't resist. There are other places outside of America that one can live freely, without being under the jackboot of the growing Amerikkan police state.

I agree, I never said you should throw away your life when it wouldn't be worth it. And yes there are places where you can live freer; however I don't believe there are places that have ever been as free as America once was, has the ingrained culture of liberty that America has, and has as strong a 'right to keep and bear' arms as America does. Tell me one place you can go to outside of America, and legally buy a semi-auto pistol with cash and no ID, strap it on your hip in plain site and walk out, all while wearing BDUs. America may be less free than other countries but it still has the guns to get the freedom back whereas most other 'free' countries don't.

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It appears to me that you are still somewhat psychologically invested in the theology of the nation state, to the point where it is still part of your identity. The nation-state is a political dinosaur that is going down whether people realize it yet or not. It is doomed to extinction by fundamental shifts in power made possible by technology, which will destroy the ability of the state to extort revenue from its citizens. So why let yourself be prematurely murdered by it, when you can safely wait things out somewhere else as it collapses from its own weight into bankruptcy? I recommend reading "The Sovereign Individual" to gain a better understanding of this topic.

No, I am not. It is not the nation state that is a part of my identity, it is my heritage and culture of liberty and freedom and gun ownership that is. Just because the government has gone bad, doesn't mean all the people or the country has. America as a place full of freedom living individuals is what I will live in and die for, not the nation state police state you are talking about. I do plan to wait it out in Wyoming. If forming free states (i.e. WY, NH) doesn't work than America is lost as a nation. The next steps will be underground communities such as Claire describes in her book about the SSN (can't remember the name but I have read it).

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In case anyone is curious, the only point at which I will engage in armed struggle against the state is when two important conditions are met

1) It is impossible to survive without being enumerated.
2) The govt has made it impossible for me to exit the country.

When that happens, I'll grab my rifle and meet you at the front....Red Dawn style baby.

I'm with you on that except I won't wait until the govt has made it impossible for me to exit the country b/c I won't be exiting (well, maybe I will but with the intent to return) and I would add a 3rd thing (a second thing for me because your second thing wouldn't be on my list) and that would be if the government comes at me with arms first (i.e Waco, Ruby Ridge, house to house raids for confiscation of firearms, etc.) And if my town/county gets filled with police-checks then I'd have to say that would be my time to start shooting. I only hope I have the courage to live up to that.

Seriously, why not join the FSW?  I have studied it greatly and compared to the FSP it looks like it could work (not that the FSP hasn't done anything, just that the FSW can probably do more). There is a lot of freedom there and we can make it even more free - a haven for those running from the very thing you would leave the country because - why not just leave and stay withing the USA and come to WY?  And btw, where outside the USA would you run to/recommend running to? I have thought but the private gun ownership is the thing that really makes me plan to stay here.

J
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 07, 2006, 12:39:35 pm
I don't believe there are places that have ever been as free as America once was, has the ingrained culture of liberty that America has, and has as strong a 'right to keep and bear' arms as America does.
I agree.
Tell me one place you can go to outside of America, and legally buy a semi-auto pistol with cash and no ID, strap it on your hip in plain site and walk out, all while wearing BDUs. America may be less free than other countries but it still has the guns to get the freedom back whereas most other 'free' countries don't.
I would tend to all agree that America has the most prevalant "gun culture".  Whether or not having those guns will allow Americans to get their freedom back is subject to debate.  One need look no further than Iraq to see what is working against the US Military.  It is primarily EID's and RPG's...not small arms.  If things ever came to civil war in this country, freedom fighters will be going up against the entire might of the US Military, body armor and all.  So I tend to doubt how effective small arms are going to be in such a scenario.  If every citizen was allowed to stock body armor, RPG's and artillery shells, then you might have a formidable resistance. 

Regardless, I do not advocate violent revolution, because I do not believe in shedding innocent blood.  What needs to happen in America is a revolution in people's minds.  Once that happens, and the state's perception of legitimacy is destroyed, we can look forward to a new era of freedom and prosperity.   Hopefully bankruptcy will bring down the US govt as soon as possible, thus limiting the number of people that it can murder before it expires.

Just because the government has gone bad, doesn't mean all the people or the country has.
While there are still many good people left in America, my personal perception is that most Americans are in a state of deep denial, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE EVENTS OF 9-11.  Decades of govt schools have dumbed people down to the point where they simply to do not appear to have the critical thinking skills, nor the intellectual framework necessary for the aforementioned mental revolution to take place.  That said, I'll be damned if I'm going down with the ship.  Are you going to be one of the jews that had the foresight to get "the hell out of Dodge" (Germany) while the getting was good?   Or are you going to wait until you're being ordered onto a boxcar bound for some detention camp?

Seriously, why not join the FSW? 

I'm giving it serious thought.  But with each passing month I think it would be just plain safer to be physically located outside the jurisdiction of the US.  Plus I would much rather see the rest of the world than hole up in Wyoming.  I'll take a winter on a tropical island in the carribean over a winter in Wyoming anytime.

where outside the USA would you run to/recommend running to? I have thought but the private gun ownership is the thing that really makes me plan to stay here.
A lot of people talk about New Zealand, Panama, Costa Rica, etc.  But I would say anywhere
the cost of living in cheap, that has a stable gov't and robust economy, where you can speak the language.  (important when trying to earn income!)

I don't know what good private gun ownership is going to do up against the might of the police state, unless you just wanted to cap yourself before being arrested/imprisoned/tortured.  Depending on where you wanted to make your last stand, why not rig your car or house up with explosives, and then light that fucker up when the JBT's came to arrest/imprison/torture you?   You better BELIEVE they are going think twice before making their next "dynamic entry" after something like that happens, hahaha. 

Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great to see some crazy hermit sumbitch dude hole up in his house, waiting for a SWAT team to bust in with guns blazing so he can serve them up a king size helping of high-explosive souffle?!   Let 'em bust into the the house to serve their stupid (token) warrant for some stupid victimless crime, get inside and then BOOM!!!!  Can you imagine?  News helicopters circling around the neighborhood as a big mushroom cloud blooms 300 feet high over the surburban landscape.  A few screaming burning bodies stagger outside of the house and collapse. 

Of course in a perfect world, JBT's should all have the experience of being sent to prison where they can enjoy being beaten to a bloody pulp and then gang-raped by a group of large black men.  Then victimized repeatly as they wondered every day whether or not they have also been infected with HIV.   Let them experience that for 3-4 weeks...just so they know what it feels like for so many of their non-violent victims of their victimless crimes (read DRUG "WAR"), just so they get a taste of their own medicine.  Those sadistic conditions are admittedly hard for the private citizen to re-create, and we all know that would never really happen anyways.  So I think a house bomb-inferno would be the next best bet.  If they live and suffer for the rest of their lives as some burn freak with 3rd degree burns over all of their body, that would probably serve as a deterrent to future aggression.

Seriously though, I think you're better off building a new life outside the US than living here as some kind of hunted runaway slave, if things continue the way they are going.  The nation-state is going to become increasingly vicious and tyrannicaly as it moves towards the brink.  IMHO it's best just to get the hell out of the way!
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 07, 2006, 12:53:04 pm
What needs to happen in America is a revolution in people's minds.  Once that happens, and the states perception of legitimacy is destroyed, we can look forward to a new era of freedom and prosperity. 
...
My personal perception is that most Americans are in a state of deep denial, and decades of govt schools have dumbed people down to the point where they simply to do have the critical thinking skills, or intellectual framework necessary for the aforementioned mental revolution to take place.


These are my thoughts exactly.

What minds brought us to this point?  Minds steeped in decades of government schools.

What minds do we need?  Minds with critical thinking skills, and individualism.

Where do we find these minds?

We don't.  Just like they didn't.  You don't find them, you make them.

If you can't take the kids out of the state, you *can* take the state out of the kids.

Revolution is for two kinds of people, those who have nothing to lose (old) and those who have everything to gain (young).  Everybody else is a support/escape/recruiting network.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: clarence on June 07, 2006, 11:29:40 pm
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I would tend to all agree that America has the most prevalant "gun culture".  Whether or not having those guns will allow Americans to get their freedom back is subject to debate.  One need look no further than Iraq to see what is working against the US Military.  It is primarily EID's and RPG's...not small arms.  If things ever came to civil war in this country, freedom fighters will be going up against the entire might of the US Military, body armor and all.  So I tend to doubt how effective small arms are going to be in such a scenario.  If every citizen was allowed to stock body armor, RPG's and artillery shells, then you might have a formidable resistance.

when, if, the police state turns into dictatorship and the military is called out in full force, how many of them will be used as garrison troops or shock troops? believe that any dictator is going to use troops to guard himself and his buddies. that will leave a smaller army to take and maintain control. the troops in iraq are not substantially outnumbered and yet cannot gain or maintain control. any troops in amerika will be very outnumbered just by the gun owners and not just the people. and if the would-be dictator keeps troops outside amerika pursuing some empire-building agenda, the number of troops here will be insufficient for control. i won't say it wouldn't get bloody, but the troops are going to be limited by the means they can use without starting a revolution if they used heavy weapons and started massacring people to gain control. and that isn't even allowing for mass desertions among troops ordered to destroy their own hometowns or those who would not fire on their own countrymen.

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Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great to see some crazy hermit sumbitch dude hole up in his house, waiting for a SWAT team to bust in with guns blazing so he can serve them up a king size helping of high-explosive souffle?!   Let 'em bust into the the house to serve their stupid (token) warrant for some stupid victimless crime, get inside and then BOOM!!!!  Can you imagine?  News helicopters circling around the neighborhood as a big mushroom cloud blooms 300 feet high over the surburban landscape.  A few screaming burning bodies stagger outside of the house and collapse.

actually, i thought that rigging the house after you built an escape tunnel that exited into another building not in your name was the better scenario. make the house very difficult to make an immediate dynamic entry and while they are breaking in you go out the tunnel and get to your safe house and turn on the monitors and wait for the bad guys to accumulate in the house and the area before you set off the "surprise".

of course, this presupposes that someone would be ruthless enough to make something like that a reality.

take care,
clarence
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 08, 2006, 02:28:35 am
the troops in iraq are not substantially outnumbered and yet cannot gain or maintain control. any troops in amerika will be very outnumbered just by the gun owners and not just the people. and if the would-be dictator keeps troops outside amerika pursuing some empire-building agenda, the number of troops here will be insufficient for control. i won't say it wouldn't get bloody, but the troops are going to be limited by the means they can use without starting a revolution if they used heavy weapons and started massacring people to gain control. and that isn't even allowing for mass desertions among troops ordered to destroy their own hometowns or those who would not fire on their own countrymen.

It's an interesting scenario to think about, and no doubt the Pentagon has already given it extensive analysis and planning.   What I think is instructive is how many troops claimed to be "uncomfortable" going door to door disarming people in New Orleans after Katrina swept through.  But they did it anyways.  Don't military personnel have to sign something asking if they would follow orders to fire on American civilians?    Perhaps this is a topic that should be picked up on another thread.

actually, i thought that rigging the house after you built an escape tunnel that exited into another building not in your name was the better scenario. make the house very difficult to make an immediate dynamic entry and while they are breaking in you go out the tunnel and get to your safe house and turn on the monitors and wait for the bad guys to accumulate in the house and the area before you set off the "surprise".

of course, this presupposes that someone would be ruthless enough to make something like that a reality.
So I see that I am not the only person who has wondered when someone is going to try and pull this off!  Nice...

It just blows me away how these criminal SWAT team JBTs can break into the wrong house, murder people in their beds at 4am, and are never be held accountable.  The police in this country literally get away with murder on a routine basis.   How many other countries are being terrorized in this fashion?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Jeffersoniantoo on June 08, 2006, 06:55:30 am
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It's an interesting scenario to think about, and no doubt the Pentagon has already given it extensive analysis and planning.   What I think is instructive is how many troops claimed to be "uncomfortable" going door to door disarming people in New Orleans after Katrina swept through.  But they did it anyways.  Don't military personnel have to sign something asking if they would follow orders to fire on American civilians?    Perhaps this is a topic that should be picked up on another thread.

The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) states that no serviceman may refuse to follow a 'lawful' order.  That one word makes all the difference (just like taxable income or unanmous consent of the governed, ;) ) In addition, the oath that one takes on entry into service says that you will protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foriegn and domestic.

That being said, I saw all kinds of Constitutional deviations and unlawful orders followed, when I was in the Navy.  Posse comotatus has not be repealed, so technically, any operations or orders to US servicepeople, on American soil, against American civilians, would be unlawful.  Also any operations or orders which violated the Constitutional rights of Citizens, would be unlawful.

EDIT: One other thing, the UCMJ also protects a serviceman from prosecution for refusing to follow an unlawful order.  A squad leader cannot order his squad to rob a bank.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: SouthernPatriot on June 08, 2006, 07:44:04 am
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I would tend to all agree that America has the most prevalant "gun culture".  Whether or not having those guns will allow Americans to get their freedom back is subject to debate.  One need look no further than Iraq to see what is working against the US Military.  It is primarily EID's and RPG's...not small arms.  If things ever came to civil war in this country, freedom fighters will be going up against the entire might of the US Military, body armor and all.  So I tend to doubt how effective small arms are going to be in such a scenario.  If every citizen was allowed to stock body armor, RPG's and artillery shells, then you might have a formidable resistance. 

We are allowed to stock body armor, it is possible to make homemade explosives, bazooka's, etc. that work quite well, and .50 Rifles do a GREAT deal of damage against a great variety of things including military vehicles, artillary, etc. And, yes, being armed helps resist tyranny. If nothing else, it scares the politicians from banning guns. They'll do it eventually, but they have to go slow b/c if they go all-out all at once, they know they'll lose a lot. All successful genocides have been preceded by the disarming of the victims so don't tell me being armed is USELESS. When the First American Revolution broke out, the fighting began because the British were coming to confiscate muskets and powder. It was arms confiscations that sparked the revolution. And because the colonists still had arms, they eventually won the war.

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Regardless, I do not advocate violent revolution, because I do not believe in shedding innocent blood.  What needs to happen in America is a revolution in people's minds.  Once that happens, and the state's perception of legitimacy is destroyed, we can look forward to a new era of freedom and prosperity.   Hopefully bankruptcy will bring down the US govt as soon as possible, thus limiting the number of people that it can murder before it expires.

I agree to a point. But America was founded on the completion of a successful violent revolution, and the Declaration of Independence States that is is the people's right and duty to overthrow such (tyrannical, oppressive) government when their rights have been continuasly usurped. Thomas Jefferson also said that the price of liberty is the blood of BOTH Patriots and Tyrants. Are you saying you disagree with the founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence, and the founding of America? I don't and that is why I treasure private gun ownership so much and will resist violently if need be. I agree that innocent blood should not be shed but are the politicians who pass the laws innocent? Are the troops who obey orders (and in the meantime violate the very Constitution they have sworn to uphold) innocent? Were the nazis innocent just because they didn't know what they were doing was wrong? I don't think they were. It is their duty to inform themselves and not become indoctrinated. True, bloodshed is never good, but at times it is necessary. And when the UN come to confiscate our guns, are they innocent? No. The UN is EVIL. Always have been, always will be. I agree with you. I want a revolution of minds and bankruptcy to bring down the FedGov. But when enough minds come to our side, there may be a civil war or revolution. And when there is, I'll be ready and not disarmed or in a foreign country doing my fellow countryment and Patriots here no good.

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While there are still many good people left in America, my personal perception is that most Americans are in a state of deep denial, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE EVENTS OF 9-11.  Decades of govt schools have dumbed people down to the point where they simply to do not appear to have the critical thinking skills, nor the intellectual framework necessary for the aforementioned mental revolution to take place.  That said, I'll be damned if I'm going down with the ship.  Are you going to be one of the jews that had the foresight to get "the hell out of Dodge" (Germany) while the getting was good?   Or are you going to wait until you're being ordered onto a boxcar bound for some detention camp?

Agree, most people are in a state of denial and have been indoctrinated. To your question, neither one. I won't run away (except to Wyoming) and I won't be lead away. I will resist when they come for me if I'm not already a guerilla or militia unit running operations against the FedGov.


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I'm giving it serious thought.  But with each passing month I think it would be just plain safer to be physically located outside the jurisdiction of the US.  Plus I would much rather see the rest of the world than hole up in Wyoming.  I'll take a winter on a tropical island in the carribean over a winter in Wyoming anytime.
you are true. it will be safer to be physically located outside the USA. But safety isn't the ONLY key. Freedom is. Well about the winter, I agree I'd prefer nice tropical winter sun to winter in Wyoming. But there are places in Wyoming where the wind isn't too bad and the winter's are not too harsh. And once again, there is a price of liberty. I'm willing to pay the small price of uncomfortable winter. After all, our founding fathers lived out harsh winters without proper boots or clothes and many died so we could enjoy the freedom we have today (what little is left anyways). I'm not gonna run away and through away their lives like that. They fought so we could live in a free country. It is the world's last chance. If we don't wake up and return America to the way it used to be, whether that is by peaceful or violent revolution or a divided country, then all they did for us is lost.

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I don't know what good private gun ownership is going to do up against the might of the police state, unless you just wanted to cap yourself before being arrested/imprisoned/tortured.  Depending on where you wanted to make your last stand, why not rig your car or house up with explosives, and then light that fucker up when the JBT's came to arrest/imprison/torture you?   You better BELIEVE they are going think twice before making their next "dynamic entry" after something like that happens, hahaha. 
Wonderful idea. I've heard of that suggestion more than once and as a matter of fact have thought of that and plan to do that very thing. Small arms against the actual confiscation may do no good to yourself. But it sure as hell will make the next JBT re-consider whether going in to get those guns is really worth it. If everyone shoots a few JBTs before being taken out, the JBTs will eventually stop coming. They don't have the guts and many have families to think about. And, rifles will do a lot of damage when you are fighting them in rifleman teams. You can take out posts, vehicles, police checks, politicians, etc. all with a rifle at a distance. Engage in a fight rather than defending yourself against a SWAT team could work. And, I will do that and light those fuckers up and they won't live to tell the tale. And I'll be out of their, down my tunnel or other escape route with the rest of my militia/guerilla/rebel team and long gone before they find out where I went. And from that day on, I will be fighting them properly, with the odds on my side as I explained above.

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Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great to see some crazy hermit sumbitch dude hole up in his house, waiting for a SWAT team to bust in with guns blazing so he can serve them up a king size helping of high-explosive souffle?!   Let 'em bust into the the house to serve their stupid (token) warrant for some stupid victimless crime, get inside and then BOOM!!!!  Can you imagine?  News helicopters circling around the neighborhood as a big mushroom cloud blooms 300 feet high over the surburban landscape.  A few screaming burning bodies stagger outside of the house and collapse. 

Ya, that would be amazing. I will do something similar but I'll be out of the house so I don't go with them. And then I'll fight them til' I die or they lose. ANd I'll take ALOT of them with me.
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Seriously though, I think you're better off building a new life outside the US than living here as some kind of hunted runaway slave, if things continue the way they are going.  The nation-state is going to become increasingly vicious and tyrannicaly as it moves towards the brink.  IMHO it's best just to get the hell out of the way!

Maybe I'd be better off. Better off isn't what I'm looking for, I'm looking for liberty and the chance to take my America back from those assholes who are destroying it right now. Oh, and pardon my ignorance but what is IMHO? I've seen it all over and cannot figure it out for the life of me. Oh, I am so stupid.  :huh:  :laugh:

Later,

J
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Jeffersoniantoo on June 08, 2006, 08:09:58 am
IMHO="In My Humble/Honest Opinion"

There is a thread on internet abbreviations somewhere...I thought it was on the bulliten board, but I don't see it now...

 :mellow:
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Jack21221 on June 08, 2006, 12:21:27 pm
SouthernPatriot:

Bullet proof vests are illegal in Maryland and quite a few other states if I recall correctly. Am I wrong on this?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Jeffersoniantoo on June 08, 2006, 02:54:52 pm
In Kentucky, I think you can have and wear any class of body armor, but if you commit a felon, with a gun, while wearing body armor, it is an additional felony charge....I think ;) ...

 :mellow:
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Roy J. Tellason on June 14, 2006, 05:12:11 pm
the troops in iraq are not substantially outnumbered and yet cannot gain or maintain control. any troops in amerika will be very outnumbered just by the gun owners and not just the people. and if the would-be dictator keeps troops outside amerika pursuing some empire-building agenda, the number of troops here will be insufficient for control. i won't say it wouldn't get bloody, but the troops are going to be limited by the means they can use without starting a revolution if they used heavy weapons and started massacring people to gain control. and that isn't even allowing for mass desertions among troops ordered to destroy their own hometowns or those who would not fire on their own countrymen.

It's an interesting scenario to think about, and no doubt the Pentagon has already given it extensive analysis and planning.   What I think is instructive is how many troops claimed to be "uncomfortable" going door to door disarming people in New Orleans after Katrina swept through.  But they did it anyways.

That's because they weren't in their home town.  And that's the way TPTB will play it,  having all sorts of transport going on so nobody's doing it in their home town,  which will make it easier to get it done.

I haven't heard anything about any legal repercussions of that either,  has anybody else?

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Don't military personnel have to sign something asking if they would follow orders to fire on American civilians?

Google "29 Palms" or "Twenty-Nine Palms" or something like that.  It was a questionnaire that was given to one group at one point in time,  and it created quit a stir at the time.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Tom P. on June 14, 2006, 05:36:47 pm
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That's because they weren't in their home town.  And that's the way TPTB will play it,  having all sorts of transport going on so nobody's doing it in their home town,  which will make it easier to get it done.

Kind of like what the Sov's did against Finland. Stalin was afraid people who lived there wouldnt be prepared to fight people who were so similar to themselvs, so he brought people up from the southern USSR (georgia, armenia, etc) to do the dirty work.

Of course, it backfired then... the locals decimated the poor boys from the south who were totally unable to deal with the local conditions (mostly the cold and snow).

That variable is not likely to effect most people in the US, but a new variable IS. The internet and other methods of instant communication would make it damn hard for GI Joe to keep playing the role when he finds out from Mom that Grandpa was shot and grandma was dragged out of the house in handcuffs because they didnt WANT to get "escorted" anywhere for no domn "mandatory" anything.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: SouthernPatriot on June 15, 2006, 04:57:08 am
freebird,

Also, there is one more thing I forgot to mention about the importance of the right to keep and bear arms. If a revolution or civil war or the FedGov comes under attack by guerilla warfare small arms will be needed. The reason: In any type of guerilla warfare, you only need enough firepower to take the enemy's to use against them. So, when I am in America with a .50 Rifle, M14 and Glock and you are in Costa Rica without weapons, I will be able to use those small arms to attack the enemy and take from him mortars, anti-aircraft guns, body armor, equipment (i.e. NVDs), ammo, M16s, machine guns, mines, whatever that particular unit is carrying. In guerilla warfare, you don't need enough firepower to defeat the enemy, just to take his firepower from him to use against him. So, when USA turns into a TOTAL Police State and small arms are banned, I will have mine and I will fight back. ANd, using guerilla warfare tactics I believe we may have a chance. So, even if you are correct that we will need more firepower such as mortars, with even the simplest of small arms, a guerilla unit will be able to aquire everything needed to win the war.

And besides that, small arms are not useless. The Jews in the Warshaw ghetto held off the Nazis, the strongest military force in the world, for 42 days I believe. It was over a month, and I think 42 days was the last survivor's deaths/escapes. With only handguns, a few rifles, a couple of machine guns, molotov cocktails, and a couple of homemade mines, (and some of the guns only had 20 rds ammo) a couple hundred resistors held off the strongest military force in the world for over a month.

And you're telling me that we will fail with common ammo types (i.e. .50 BMG, .308, .223), tens of thousands of rds of stocked up ammo, training, already formed militia units & rifleman teams, knowledge from books about guerilla warfare, homemade explosives, shooting, tactics, etc. that we will fail? I highly doubt it. Not if we have the courage and wisdom to realize when to shoot back and when not to. We have time to prepare and to wake up others. Don't run - stay here and continue waking up those around you. We need all the resistors we can get. And re-consider Wyoming - I think it can work if enough people like you who are moving away instead of there, move there instead. And if enough libertarians would get off their asses and work for freedom - by moving there rather than working hopelessly for their candidate to win in their state - that will never happen. But it can happen if we all go to one state and liberate it. Give it some more thought.

J

Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: SouthernPatriot on June 15, 2006, 08:02:18 am
Jack,

I am sure you are correct, but as you can see, not all states. BTW, do you know what other states it is illegal? They are legal in Kentucky, and in SC where I live and in WY where I plan to move to. I would imagine that in most of the southern and western states except California it would be legal. My point is that it is accessible here in America (for the most part), so that is not a real disadvantage. There is no federal law banning it - yet. And NVDs are legal as are most camo clothing and much military equipment.

Also freebird,

Even if you are 100% correct that small arms will do no good against big brother, they do well against criminals such as burglers, rapists, street gangs, carjackers, murderers and the like. So, though, in the end, they may not stop tyranny (according to you - I'm not agreeing with you yet), they do stop criminals. And so that is just one more reason that I value the RTKABA so much when choosing where I live.

J
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: badmuggafugga on June 18, 2006, 05:20:56 pm
The discussion regarding martial law reminded me of a good post from a few years ago by a guy I don't know on a .mil/LE board I rarely visit any more.  From what I gleaned when he was an active member on that board, my guess is that he was an Ulster Catholic and later spent time in SA, Zimbabwe, and/or some other African garden spots (that background experience will be germane to the following passage, which I've taken the liberty of editing slightly where you see italics in parentheses).  The following is in response to a question regarding the .mil/LE establishment's ability to keep the lid on in the event of a crisis.

"If an event is localised and of short to medium duration, then yes.  If it's widespread, long term, and truly catastrophic . . . no. Not even with irregular forces.  (XXXXX) is more the voice of logic here, by the way.  While I have no doubt that everyone's opinions are well-intentioned, you are all providing the theoretical textbook answers conjured, quite obviously, by pseudo-intelligentsia who have no experience in such matters.  I assure you, sirs, that being in the midst of a war zone or other hostile environment with the well-being of dependents to consider and protractedness certainly negating hunkering down below the windowsill till the cavalry comes as a viable option is, to borrow a phrase, a whole 'nother ballgame from an obligatory deployment to some other country (or even county), in which case your families are tucked away someplace safe and secure and beyond reach of the Reaper.  This is the voice of experience; not a field manual or classroom lecture or FEMA exercise.

"LE and irregulars (I take it he means guard/reserve units) will only be effective for a short while (days, possibly weeks) if a catastrophe is significant enough to disrupt a national or regional infrastructure for any appreciable period.  When food, water, medical attention, and relief personnel stop coming, they will start going.  That's the way it is.  Some will be profoundly affected by concern for their own families (who could blame them?) and this will motivate them to desert immediately.  Others will force themselves to hope or believe that someone, somewhere, is doing the same for his as he is for yours and these will stand the watch for a while longer but eventually they, too, will leave.  This is one of the factors that has enabled the U.S. military to be so effective: lack of an immediate domestic threat.

"Most people dislike the idea of living under martial law with imposed curfews and restricted travel; when it's no longer just an idea, they dislike it even more.  Under such circumstances, they resent being policed by unfamiliar faces in uniform who are heavily armed and permitted to come and go at leisure when they themselves are not, and by familiar faces that have issued them traffic citations who seem to be collaborating.  This complicates matters for those attempting to maintain order.  When the resources for sustainment are depleted within the residence and none are forthcoming, (the citizenry) will be out and about and searching for more.  If you, as an official authority figure, impede them in this endeavor in any way, you have just compromised yourself and every other person in uniform.  Even if they pose no definite or seemingly potential threat and you are successful in persuading them to return from whence they came, they won't stay there.  They will talk to their friends and neighbours and, undoubtedly, some of them will have had similar experiences.  They will decide that you are an invader within the boundaries of their territory; that aid hasn't come yet or in quite some time so, certainly, they are isolated from the rest of the world, unreachable, maybe forgotten; that they must do whatever is called for to ensure their continuation and you are now an obstacle to such; that they know the terrain far better than-- and easily out-number-- you; and that you probably are hoarding food.  Plus, they will be armed . . . .

"Tragic as it was, 9/11 was an isolated incident.  So are mass demonstrations and protest rallies, college football riots, and most natural and man-made disasters.  While the effects may be long-lasting, the actual occurrences are localised and, typically, of short duration.  Armed authorities have the influence of possible legal repercussions as a deterrent during civil unrest, and emergency personnel providing aid overwhelmingly have the sympathy and support of the populace in the aftermath of whatever finger of God flicks the earth.  To date, this has been sufficient in the U.S., which has yet to experience a lengthy cataclysm or one that prevents massive assistance from being immediately rendered to everyone.

"In the long term, however, if the size of a population or its geographic isolation (or other factors) pose a considerable hardship to relief efforts, people will do whatever they can to get what they need and no badge or vested authority will stop them.  What's more, in a nation the size of the U.S., governmental resources would be spread perilously thin and the tactic of containment often used with city-wide disruptions will prove futile.

"In those communities where the rule of law is respected to whatever degree, it will be imperative that any existing (rather, remaining) authorities supplement their numbers by deputising suitable members of the indigenous population (the locals), thereby influencing their cooperation with-- and tolerance of-- that presence.  You can accept this reality or you can be removed.  Either way, armed defence groups (militias, if you prefer) are an inevitability.  Those who may be inclined to disagree have never lived under such circumstances and are, therefore, unqualified to debate the matter. Untill you've been there--with womenfolk, children, and the infirm in tow-- tough talk and nonchalant bravado are best kept to yourself and your opinions on this subject are irrelevent.

"It should also be noted that, during the L.A. riots, many LEOs simply stood around and did nothing as crimes against persons and property were committed in full view.  The wake of Hurricane Andrew saw numerous instances of looting by irregulars who had been deployed as an effort against such practices, right alongside the other opportunists.  And this wasn't even the end of civilisation . . . .

"For those of you who may be deployed in my neck of the woods should such ever occur, be advised: my crew will go where it pleases, when it pleases, how it pleases.  We are harder than you, stronger than you, smarter than you, and faster than you.  We have all been through much worse that you can imagine and in far worse places that you are likely to see.  Good luck trying to "detain and disarm" us (quote refers to previous .mil/LE types bloviating about how anyone with guns and gear will be detained for a good susswing out)."

Well thought-out, reality-based explanation, I think.  Curious what he'd have to say about the post-Katrina mess.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 20, 2006, 07:14:43 pm
Well it seems that I have almost managed to kill off this thread with talk of blowing up houses and cars and apocalyptic civil war scenarios. 

These are all interesting subjects that deserve further discussion, but probably on their own thread.

I'd like to switch gears for a moment and bring the discussion back to the original topic, resistance to being indentified. 

The current dilemma that I am wrestling with is this;   I am refusing to carry Real ID because I do not want to be enumerated, and I refuse to have MY digital likeness (photograph), fingerprint(s), and other biometric info plugged into some goddamn database somewhere, when I have done not anything wrong (that is, damaged someone else's person or property).   I am also refusing to renew my current non-Real ID drivers license, because it still contains a digital photograph, fingerprint, and requires an SSN, which I have made the decision to stop using. 

The problem is that by refusing to carry a drivers license, I am now exposing myself to the risk of arrest, whereupon my digital likeness and other biometric information will probably be taken from me by force down at the police station anyways.  (I have never been arrested) Does anyone know if you get arrested and booked into jail for driving without a license in any of the 50 states?   Or do you just sign a ticket and off you go?   

Another major concern is keeping my DNA to myself, which many LE agencies are now pushing to have collected from anyone arrested for a crime, never mind whether you end up being convicted or not.  This should scare the shit out of everyone, IMHO.  Or are my fears about having DNA forcibly collected pointless to begin with?   It is possible that as human beings we shed so much DNA laden material that Law Enforcement could easily "get the goods" on us without too much effort as things stand right now?

This whole ID matrix is so depressing, is just seems that there is no way out save for leaving the country, or giving up driving and patronizing any drinking establishments completely.   Or continuing to do so and then living your life in fear that you will eventually be caught, arrested, and then forced into the biometric ID system against your will. 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: pilgrim on June 20, 2006, 08:02:26 pm

Just do it! Why be afraid of a little jail time or death and injury? The spirit lives forever, bitch!


(DL free going on 4 years now)
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 20, 2006, 08:43:59 pm

Just do it! Why be afraid of a little jail time or death and injury? The spirit lives forever, bitch!

(DL free going on 4 years now)

Pilgrim, I appreciate the bravado, now tell us a little more about your experience

1)  Have you ever been pulled over or been involved in a traffic accident since going DL free?

2)  Have you even done any jail time in a hard-core big city lockup?  Candy-ass rural county jails do not count.

3)  Does this mean you are also driving without insurance? 
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Joel on June 20, 2006, 08:57:05 pm
Oooh!  Still full of piss and vinegar, I see!

Perhaps, before you cast aspersions on others, you could expound on your own experiences concerning these things?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 20, 2006, 10:03:01 pm
Does anyone know if you get arrested and booked into jail for driving without a license in any of the 50 states?   Or do you just sign a ticket and off you go?

My understanding is that you can get arrested and booked into jail for jaywalking, illegal parking, or anything else, if the officer chooses to do so.  Doesn't mean you will be arrested, but it's possible.  As for the "off you go" part, that would most likely be ON FOOT, not in the car you aren't licensed to drive.

There would definitely be no point in lying (e.g. "Oh, I've got a license, but I left it at home/it was stolen by an illegal immigrant/my cat ate it") because they will just have the dispatcher look you up in the big computer database to verify whether you've really got a license.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Bill St. Clair on June 21, 2006, 05:16:26 am
There would definitely be no point in lying (e.g. "Oh, I've got a license, but I left it at home/it was stolen by an illegal immigrant/my cat ate it") because they will just have the dispatcher look you up in the big computer database to verify whether you've really got a license.

I've wondered about this. Lots of cop cars nowadays have computers mounted inside. I've never seen one in action, but I suppose that a cop can enter your car's license plate number and see on his screen, before he even talks to you, you driving license mugshot, your insurance payment records, your registration information, your criminal record, etc. Yet they still ask to see the paper copies of driving license and registration. It's all about control.

Does anybody know details about what's available to a computer-equipped cop at a roadside stop?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 21, 2006, 07:50:56 am
All tickets you've had (ever, they never seem to really drop off your record), whether or not you have ever had a concealed carry license and it's status, status of your driver's licence (all details on the license as well), whether or not other states have criminal claims tied to your license, known aliases and I suspect previous addresses on the license as well.

That much I know from direct experience.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: freebird on June 21, 2006, 11:34:10 am
Oooh!  Still full of piss and vinegar, I see!

Perhaps, before you cast aspersions on others, you could expound on your own experiences concerning these things?

My own experience is that I currently drive without a license as I refuse to renew my previous one, I have never been arrested in my entire life for anything, and I plan to keep it that way if at all possible. 

As long as one observes all the rules of the road, and drives a well maintained vehicle, the chances of getting pulled over are close to nil. (with the notable exception of DWB..."Driving While Black") Roadblocks are a different story, but can still be avoided.   IMO, being involved in an accident is the biggest wildcard with regards to being "discovered"

Arrest and jail time are my biggest concerns.  And it's not going to jail or prison itself that scares me, it's the brutal hyperracialized rape factory environment of the tougher lockups.   If the threat of severe beatings, prison rape and HIV infection is not a sick form of social control, then I don't know what is.  LA County jail is a prime example of such a place, I know people that have been inside and they tell me it's scary. 

If any of you want a real world glimpse into conditions inside nutjob Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's jails, check out some of the earlier posting's in Jon's jail blog.   

http://jonsjailjournal.blogspot.com/

There's a wealth of other stories you can find on the Internet and what it's like to be on the inside.  The common thread is that most of them are pretty horrifying.
http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=04/02/04/3665619

BBC documentary on "America's brutal prisons"
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8451.htm

Some excerpts on prison rape:
http://www.geniebusters.org/915/35b_prison.html

Wikipedia entry on prison rape:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape

Stop Prison Rape, Inc.
http://www.spr.org/

Human Rights Watch, predators and victims of prison rape:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report4.html#_1_25

How a society treats its prisoners, says a lot about that society.  And by that standard we live in a sick, sick country where prison rape is not only tolerated, but openly laughed at and joked about on national TV,  and outright celebrated in many instances.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Mr. Bill on June 21, 2006, 12:57:46 pm
Does anybody know details about what's available to a computer-equipped cop at a roadside stop?

I've got a rough idea, from listening to the local cops on my scanner. From your license plate they can get info on the registered owner of the vehicle -- name(s) and address(es), and probably driver's license numbers -- and also the vehicle description and VIN that is supposed to go with that plate. The person driving the car might not be the registered owner, which is why they also need to see the driver's license. Once they have you identified, they can get all the other data as scarming described, although what's available will probably vary from state to state, maybe even from county to county, depending on how sophisticated their computer systems are.

This isn't necessarily an automatic, instantaneous process as of 2006. The cop's computer may not be able to get a wireless connection. The city/county computer system may be down. The state license database may be down. Even if everything is working, not all the data is linked up (yet), and the cop will often ask a dispatcher to do further research (alternate name spellings, both state and local databases and sometimes even in-house paper records, etc.), which can take a while.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: RagnarDanneskjold on June 21, 2006, 04:26:24 pm
2 tangents.

1. They now have those license plate scanners so they can scan all the license plates all the time.

B. I heard that Ohio is going to add an element to their Alcohol check points. Evasion teams. This will be additional squad cars to go after the drunks who would attempt to avoid the checkpoint. So, they assume anyone who turns around is automatically doing something wrong. Phuquers.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: ripsnort on June 21, 2006, 07:02:02 pm
50 states - laws and LEO practise vary greatly.  Tho you may get off with just a ticket for driving without a license, you will probably have to prove to the officers satisfaction who you are.  So unless you live in a small town where the officer knows you, what ID are you going to use?
Here you can not be pursued or stopped for turning around and leaving a DUI check point, I don't know about other states.
National ID - I'm gonna hate it if I have to get my picture and address on my drivers license!
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Scarmiglione' on June 22, 2006, 06:55:33 am
At the moment, Texas has a law specifically banning arbitrary checkpoints.  The only roadblocks allowed are for stopping known and specified fugitives and, of course, border control.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: spidey on August 05, 2006, 02:56:45 pm
I've lived near communist Germany as a child and can remember their version of the JBTs; my father was going to play a professional basketball game against East Germany (he was on a European team), and we entered East Germany through the Berlin area.  Once they found out we were from the U.S., well, we got their version of hospitality.  I am intimately familiar with the results of required documentation.

Any and all agitation and activism against this draconian piece of shite is good.  Do I think any amount of activism against this legislation will work?  No.  But, do whatever your consciousness dictates.

Claire is right, we need to be unified.  However, I think that the unification needs to have a higher goal once it happens.  If the unification seeks to stop the REAL ID, that may be all it will accomplish; however, if the unification seeks to preserve liberty as a unified group, with the fight against REAL ID being just a by-product in the fight for liberty, then who knows what may be accomplished!  If you aim for the moon, you may not hit it, but you will have gotten far; if you aim for the ground, you are sure to hit it.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Duncan on August 11, 2006, 12:07:48 pm
In Lakewood, Colorado a woman refused to ID herself to the Homeland Gestapo. A few months back a woman on her way to work via the public bus, which had to make its run through the Federal Center located on Kipling and Alameda in Lakewood, would be stopped at the gate and the passengers randomly checked for ID's. The woman in question never drove a car and as such she had no DL but was required to have some form of state issued ID card according to the federal swine.

There is no law in place YET which requires people to get an ID card or to even carry one on them. This was her issue. The fed pigs arrested the woman and later dropped the case when they discovered that she had a battery of lawyers ready to do battle in court over forcing people to get state issued ID cards and then making them carry the ID card on thier person anywhere they went in public.

Even though the courts say that a person is required by their laws to ID themselves when hassled by copsters there is NO requirement to obtian a state issued ID or carry one on your person. You are only required to give the cop a name and that is all. You are not required to give the cop an address, a SS#, a phone# or your place of employment just a name.

The law does not tell you that you are required to spell your name out for the cop nor does it say how often you must give the pig your name. The law does not specify in what language who must ID yourself or give out your name. Your surname could be given in its orginal dialect and it would still be your legal name. Maybe your surname is French or Spanish or better yet Celtic. Thier are alot of ways to say the last name of Philp. McKillop, Philip, Phylp etc... . You get the picture.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: wvpeach1963 on September 12, 2006, 06:59:54 am
   I agree with august west, here in WV we have no trust of the goverment

   After all it is here where the goverment first tried to drop bombs on american people

 to settle a coal mining strike. Our state goverment will have a fight on its hands getting this enacted in WV at all.

   Even with the feds pushing this it is not a done deal here.

  But I like the idea of a resistance to it as I would hate to get cut off from travel out side my state which is exactly what could happen.

  And I will have to give up my cruises because I bet without that real ID I'd never get back in the country. BUMMER
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: ff42 on September 12, 2006, 05:08:34 pm
"The law does not tell you that you are required to spell your name".   If  ever stopped or challenged I plan on using american sign language...
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: wvpeach1963 on October 02, 2006, 12:00:28 am
count me in on any logical resistence. nazi symbols aside.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: klhrevolutionist on January 21, 2008, 09:53:44 pm
I'm totally on board and will coordinate with whomever is really interested.

https://billstclair.com/blog/national_i_d.html

http://digg.com/educational/End_the_War_on_Freedom/
http://reddit.com/user/klhrevolutionist/

I submitted it to other popular sites but they are pending approval ...
Title: National I.D. West Virginia
Post by: klhrevolutionist on January 25, 2008, 02:29:18 am
The State Journal reports:
"CHARLESTON -- West Virginia would join a growing number of states that are refusing to change what appears on their driver's licenses to meet new national security standards under a proposed bill that is enjoying bipartisan support among state lawmakers." http://tinyurl.com/2wmc78

Spread the word! Hit W. Virginia with a barrage of emails, phone calls, faxes and more. To let them know we support them ! To encourage them ! We can defeat this the same as the amnesty was defeated !

https://billstclair.com/blog/w_virginia_enough_is_enough.html
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: klhrevolutionist on January 27, 2008, 05:30:13 pm
"As of January 31, all adult travelers will have to have a proof of citizenship and proof of identity to enter the United States. And in the coming months, the state of North Dakota will be adopting even STRICTER GUIDELINES."
http://www.kfyrtv.com/News_Stories.asp?news=15261

Let's tell north Dakota how we feel about their support for this legislation. Let them know we are disappointed in their decision to enact and enforce this.

Let us at least try to defeat this at the state level!
https://billstclair.com/blog/nationalist_i_d_n_dakota.html

http://digg.com/educational/Nationalist_I_D_North_Dakota
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: tnborn on April 04, 2008, 04:29:41 pm
Many folks don't know this id threat is going on. If a person does mention something about the u.s. govt doing an id movment, you're nuts is the response. I really don't know how to stop an avalanche but awarenesss  is the key to possibly stopping this??

I'm new so please don't yell too loudly at me. :laugh:
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Bear on April 04, 2008, 06:04:33 pm
tnborn,

I think most people will ignore the issue until it bites them. I don't
expect much of a reaction until this thing is fully enforced. There may
be some outrage then, but don't expect much until then.

Bear

Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: da gooch on April 04, 2008, 07:12:50 pm
Welcome tnborn

Alas, I feel like there is next to nothing to be done about "educating" the general public sheeple.
If a new law or regulation does not interfere with the afternoon soap operas, the evening sports shows, the evening propaganda
news broadcasts, the local beer joint or wrestling then the sheeple will just sigh and pay the new "fee".
Gripe and moan maybe but stay in line ....? no doubt.

I almost seems like the majority of people don't want Liberty for themselves or anyone else doesn't it ?

What's to be done ?
Keep trying to educate them and don't give up I guess ....

*Sigh*
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: tnborn on April 05, 2008, 02:38:38 pm
Well, I provided entertainment for the regular folks becaused I threw a fit about paying 4.20 for a gallon of milk and for paying  an outrage price for store bought cornmeal. :ph34r:
These folks apparently don't mind the prices. My boss still drives her yukon when she has a good toyota car sitting in the driveway. So, I'm just entertainment for her.

Well, I feel the toilet economy in my pocket. I see the price of gas. ( growl everytime I have to fill up) Go down the aiseles at the store cussing cause the prices are ridiculous. Can't wait to start growing a garden and doing my own thing.

Some folks are like cattle. They will line up for the id. Cause the folks on t.v. says everything is fine and the american citizens need to get an id. :angry:
Hard to help folks when they want listen. some folks don't even know how to keep warm without electricity.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: NuclearDruid on March 26, 2009, 09:43:01 am
Fake IDs getting better, easier to obtain (http://www.khou.com/news/state/stories/khou090326_tnt_fake-ids.71e25a86.html)

While the mice can't survive being stepped on my lumbering elephants, they certainly are alot more nimble and responsive.

Quote
Police say there are varying degrees when it comes to the quality of these manufactured fake IDs. The less expensive IDs will often be the wrong color, missing details or of general poor quality. But, there are some that not only pass a visual inspection, can even pass many of the state’s anti-forgery measures.

High-end fake IDs are most commonly used by people involved in smuggling, drug trafficking and other crimes.

According to a new report issued this month by the Government Accountability Office, investigators using fake IDs were able to obtain passports, buy airline tickets and, in one case, even board a plane.

ND
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: NuclearDruid on March 27, 2009, 12:24:24 pm
UNH grad student charged with manufacturing fake IDs (http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20090327-NEWS-90327030)

Quote
The warrant for Kramer’s arrest was issued after the police agencies searched Kramer’s residence on March 20 and seized eleven false N.H. driver’s licenses, a desktop computer, a flash drive, a scanner/printer, laminating machine, bar code encoders and scanners, ID card stock, lamination stock and other items related to manufacturing the false IDs.

ND
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: eds777 on April 15, 2009, 07:57:29 pm
This is a very political topic that needs to be resisted on a state-by-state basis using the powers-that-be in political offices, i.e., state senators and representatives.  Just over a year ago, South Carolina became the first state to overtly state that they would not be participating in "REAL ID".   Just last week, the Commonwealth of Virginia via actions of their House and Senate, said they would not be participating in "REAL ID".    Several other states around the country have also stated that they would not be participating.   I believe that having his hands slapped like this is what is prompting the head of DHS to issue ALERTS to police agencies, like MIAC, over the past two weeks concerning his perceptions of the radical 'Right'.  Of course, I am certain that Barack (or Barry, or whatever his name is) has had a hand in this matter.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: kentuckyjohnsonsjf on May 04, 2009, 02:47:00 pm
  :hello: Hey there TCFers and TMMers :threesome:...I normally post on "the agitator" under GJIWWJ. But, in case any body here hasn't visited that thread...I have a cartoon I drew about RFID that Bill has put up at http://billstclair.com/suijuris/. It looks at RFID and NAIS thru thee religious implications and biblical prophecy...It's the last cartoon :contract:. Thankyou WE  :love4: K.J.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Mad Wet Hen on June 06, 2009, 08:24:16 pm
I would rather take in the papers then get the ID chip they are  planning. They want to have everyone tagged with them by 2017. That would make it way to easy to keep people that don't go along with the government from being able to buy and sell or even get and keep a job. Maybe that is what you all are talking about if so I totally agree in saying no! No! NOOOO!
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: gaurdduck on June 06, 2009, 09:50:49 pm
Just a minor FYI on the Google maps thing:

I checked out my area (Niagara Falls) and the photo is roughly at least 2 years old.  I started at my house, and scanned to the falls, and then upriver.  There are a couple of major construction projects that have happened that are not on the satellite view.

And interestingly, they actually have "smudged" out the image near the Power Project so that you cannot view the generators area, but not the reservoir; that you can see.  I would expect them to do so, just minorly interesting that it is so.  OOOH, now I will go look at the Airbase near me..... Yep, that is "smudged" too.

Ft Bragg Aint:
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: MEG Raven on April 09, 2010, 06:57:34 pm
Hi Guys, I'm New to the group -

What I would like to discuss is what those of us who in no way are going to accept the NIC (and ABSOLUTELY no "Digital Angel"chip) are going to do if/when the event actually comes about.  How will we get around restrictions on licensing, purchasing, medical care, running a business, etc. Will we have to go the Straw-Man route, depending upon "Legal" individuals for these - or is it possible to create an underground economy?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Klapton Isgod on April 09, 2010, 08:57:48 pm
Underground economies always exist.  You have to find them.  As things get more tyranical, more "legit" people will become part of that underground.  With this latest reach into health care, I would not be suprised if more medical professionals leave the system and go gray.
Title: Re: ID Resist - Look at how far we've come... (Pt.1)
Post by: MEG Raven on April 09, 2010, 09:55:36 pm
This is Part 1 of an article I wrote back in 2006 - it's still relevant today (maybe even more so) - but it highlights the fact that BOTH PARTIES are "progressive" and both parties are trying to create some nefarious future for anyone not elevated to their rarefied heights.


Man, oh Man!
In the not too distant past it was possible to cross the country unimpeded by anything other than the hazards of the day: hostile natives, highwaymen and nature. You didn't need to carry an ID or have any "papers" at hand to prove who you were. If someone asked you your name, or where you were from, or where you were headed, you had the freedom to answer them or ignore the question as you saw fit. You didn't need to carry any money on you, nor provide proof of a job, a home, a destination, a purpose in life, nor anything else. In fact, it was considered "bad taste" (to the point of insulting!) to be too nosey about another's affairs. If you persisted in being excessively curious about another when that person had made it clear they preferred their privacy, it was considered de rigeur that that person pound your annoying personage into the dust. If you were hungry and you had no money, you hunted, fished and/or foraged - and you didn't need anybody's permission or anything as ridiculous as a "License" to provide for yourself. No one bothered you and no one cared as long as you were not killing somebody else's livestock. There was nothing as silly as a "hunting season" nor even the concept that a particular critter might be "out of season." Firearms were tools that were respected and nearly universally owned and carried. It was assumed that you were carrying a firearm and that you were familiar enough with it to use it in the proper manner. Few people were outlaws, few outlaws were any good at it, and even fewer people - whether they were lawmen or men outside of the law - ever attained the title of "gunslinger."

To get a job, you entered a place of business and asked if there were any jobs available. If the owner or manager thought you could be of use, you negotiated terms that each could accept, and you started at the agreed upon time and rate of pay. There were no papers to sign, no reporting to the government, no supplements not negotiated at the time of hire, no requirements and no restrictions not set by the owner of the business and agreed upon at the time of hire. You didn't have to prove who you were, where you were from, or where you were living. If you were willing to work for squat, then that was just fine. When you got tired of working for squat, you asked for a raise or split the scene - and that was fine. If the owner or manager decided you weren't working out, then you were let go and they didn't need to provide an explanation (though most generally did) - and that was fine, too. The government could not interfere. There were no "Fair Hiring Practices" because "fair" was whatever you were sly enough or valuable enough to negotiate with the owner or manager, and vice-versa. The two people involved decided on what was fair or not, and nobody - including the government - had any business interfering. The government didn't demand that you inform on your employees, nor shanghai any part of their pay in deference to the State. The government could not force anyone to hire or not hire or retain anyone, nor force any individual to pay homage to the State in order to earn a living.


If you earned a living that provided more cash than you cared to carry, you went to a bank, satisfied yourself that your money would be safe there, opened an account with just your name and received a "passbook" that kept track of your holdings. Your privacy was paramount. It was understood that your account was an investment, that the bank would be using your money and would provide "earnings" in the form of "interest". It was further understood that, should the bank be robbed or run badly, part or all of your investment could be lost. This made the town fairly protective of their banks - at least, to those who had investments in them - and robbing a town's bank was likely to stir up the investors into a rather uncompromising posse. It was a lot more risky to rob a bank in those days. But if you didn't trust the safety of a bank or the wisdom of a bank manager and didn't care about earning interest on your savings, you could always dig a hole in the middle of the night or stash your cash somewhere in your home. Loose fireplace stones were very popular. And another thing… what you earned was more than just a "promise to pay" and it didn't matter if you had any faith in the government's ability to make good it's promises or not. Money was either gold, silver, or paper backed dollar-for-dollar by gold and silver sitting in a treasury vault somewhere. The government could go belly-up and your hard currency would still be good.


I could go on, but I think I've made my point. In the three paragraphs above, nothing is as it was - nor as it should be.


The paper money we use today is backed by nothing more than the willingness of others to accept it in exchange for goods. It has no backing and even less intrinsic value. If the time comes when goods equal life and the scarcity of goods is the norm, your paper money will be most useful for starting fires, wiping your behind, or stuffing between layers of clothing for insulation. It won't buy anything. You can't eat money and you can't trade it for anything if nobody believes it's worth anything. While you can't eat gold or silver, people have always liked bright and shiny precious metals and jewels. Go figure. Me - I believe that a brick of .22LR and a good knife have more value than any shiny bauble. Still, in 1800, the average blue-collar wage earner made about $16 a week and the price of gold was about $19 per ounce - 1.1875% of weekly earnings. Today, the average blue-collar wage earner makes about $500 a week and the price of gold is about $580 per ounce - 1.16% of weekly earnings. Very stable. It takes $32 to buy what $1 would buy in 1800, but an ounce of gold will still buy today about what an ounce of gold would buy back then. You still can't eat it…


To get a job today is just plain weird. Neither party is "allowed" to do it the way they used to. It's illegal. Both parties have to pay the government for something the government has nothing to do with. The government didn't create the job or any of the goods or services involved in the job. The government doesn't do any of the work involved, nor find the job for the potential employee in the first place. The government didn't train the employee and isn't going to pay him for his efforts. The government contributes absolutely nothing to the relationship between employee and employer except reams of intrusive rules, regulations and paperwork. Oh yeah - and both parties have to pay for this dubious contribution in more than mere money. They are required to inform on each other to the government (lest one or the other party attempt to "cheat" the government out of something it has no right to in the first place). They must pay in time and effort to obtain and compile and verify and report on all the requisite documentation involved. They must deal with the apprehension of knowing that, should they make a mistake in this process, the government will make them pay dearly for it. Some must deal with the guilt and shame of complying with a process they instinctively know is wrong, while others must somehow cope with the rage and frustration of knowing they have capitulated to a coerced injustice. Even worse, as long as they are employed or in business, they must justify themselves before the all-powerful overlords of commerce and swear fealty to them, under penalty of perjury, that they have correctly debased and devalued their lives to the exact penny required.


    "How long do we have to spend working for the government, rather than ourselves? The answer is nearly half the year. The March 2005 Budget moved Tax Freedom Day later by 3 days. The March 2006 Budget means that this year we will have to work yet another three days for the government. These are both historically very large increases in the tax burden. And 3 June is the latest that Tax Freedom Day has been since 1988!" [source: http://www.adamsmith.org/tax/]


You do realize that this means you are required to spend nearly half of your life (and earnings) justifying your existence to the government, don’t you?

(Continued in Part 2)


MEG
SSRsi http://www.ssrsi.org
March-April 2006
Title: Re: ID Resist - Look at how far we've come... (Pt.2)
Post by: MEG Raven on April 09, 2010, 09:58:44 pm
This is Part 2 of an article I wrote back in 2006 - it's still relevant today (maybe even more so) - but it highlights the fact that BOTH PARTIES are "progressive" and both parties are trying to create some nefarious future for anyone not elevated to their rarefied heights.

But let's discuss simply surviving - pure existence - in America. The government has made it effectively impossible to legally exist in this country without either a.) depending solely upon the largess of the State (paid for by everyone who does not depend solely upon the largess of the State) in the form of one welfare program or another, or b.) paying, and paying, and paying some more to the State - for everything and anything that you want to do. In addition, everything that you do will be monitored and regulated and must conform to State mandated methods and means. (We only want to help you…)

You can't own property without paying property taxes. Here's a shocker: I don't have a problem with that. Nor do I have a problem with property confiscation for failure to pay property taxes. It's only right. But what I do have a problem with is taking your property despite the fact that you've complied with the property tax laws [through eminent domain] or stealing your property [confiscation through forfeiture laws] for any reason other than failure to pay property taxes. This Nation was founded on property rights. If you take away the foundation, the whole house crumbles. Even if you have what appears to be a good reason, failure to respect property rights invalidates any justification for the Nation itself - including the government and all of its laws, both good and bad. Besides, it makes us (as a Nation) look really stupid when you have the government filing criminal cases against inanimate objects: "United States Government vs. 1968 Chevrolet Camaro" which is what they do when some Sheriff somewhere decides Sheriff Junior needs a new car and the long-haired Liberal pothead down the block doesn't deserve to drive such a fly ride. I'm not a big fan of liberals, (or, at least, of their philosophy) but that just ain't right.


        "If you think we are free today, you know nothing about tyranny and even less about freedom." [Tom Braun]


You can't produce a living for yourself by growing, hunting, fishing, trapping or foraging for food without giving the government it's cut first. You've got to be licensed and certified to play that game, and there's a whole slew of rules and regulations to follow regarding times, size, sex, number and method of obtaining whatever it is you are after - and you need a new license if any of these variables are changed - and, of course, all of these licenses and stamps must be paid for. Nor can you simply toss a few seeds in the backyard plot and raise a few chickens for the stew pot. First of all, your property has to be zoned for agricultural use (which may actually save you a little on property taxes, if you can qualify) but then comes the real kicker. Agriculture is deadly and must be over-regulated and monitored to the N-th degree. GPS chickens are all the rage. Think I'm kidding? Read: Old Big Brother Had a Farm - USDA ID-tag plan for farm animals has some small-scale farmers unhappy and USDA Poised to Push Us Off Our Farms With the National Animal Identification System


        "Arguments against the NAIS system are filling up small farm Internet sites. The greatest fear seems to be that NAIS will stifle local sources of production through over-regulation and additional costs. NAIS is seen as an economic threat to medium and small sized small farms who will be forced to register and bear the economic cost of the location registration, reporting the movement of animals off-farm into the selling, slaughter, or exhibition venues, the cost of the micro chips tags, equipment to read the tags, and software to upload the data to the government. County fairs, and perhaps even farmers markets, would fall under this additional regulatory burden. Others argue that if the growing numbers of small-scale farmers who sell directly to citizens are forced out of business then customers will have to buy food from the industrial food system which, by its scale and single species confinement, only multiply the effects of food safety and disease problems. Some argue that increased testing rather then tracking of livestock is more effective in preventing disease. There is concern about the privacy of the information in the state and federal databases that may be managed private companies. Voices against the system point out that the best way to prevent food safety problems is to raise the food yourself or know the farmer that you buy from. Finally, state agencies have an incentive to fast track the NAIS surveillance system so they can access USDA grants to pay for department personnel."
        [source: http://www.tpforganics.com/newsletter/mail.cgi/archive/Traders/20060303143918]


There's a lot more out there on this. Just type "NAIS, Farms" in a search engine and you'll get pages of pages.


        On August 1, 1910, North America's first driver licensing law went into effect in the U.S. state of New York, though it initially applied only to professional chauffeurs. In July of 1913, the state of New Jersey became the first to require all drivers to pass a mandatory examination before receiving a license. France and Germany were among the earliest countries to require mandatory driver licensing, right at the start of the 20th century. As automobile-related fatalities soared in North America, public outcry provoked legislators to begin studying the French and German statutes as models. [source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver's_license]


This was the beginning of the end. Until the genesis of the "Driver's License" there was no official ID, no demands for papers. You could travel anywhere in the United States and not once would anyone be so rude as to question your identity or demand proof thereof. Of course, with so many people and so little open land left… there's really not many places you really need to go anyway, is there?


As little as 50 years ago (in the US), it was possible for a survivalist type to escape the floodtide of humanity and establish a private oasis in the wilds. Today, there are no wilds. Those of you reading this in the backwoods and hidden glens of the supposed wilds of America had better take heed... you are not as far off the beaten path as you think - and nowhere near far enough for a panicked and desperate mass of humanity or a suspicious and vengeful authority to reach. If you think otherwise, take a look at this high resolution image of the U.S.A. at Night (with State outlines). Think about what you see there and what all of those blue splotches represent - hundreds of thousands, and in some cases MILLIONS of predominantly unprepared people. Most of them driving SUV's. [To check out the rest of the world go to the Dark Sky website - it's very spooky.] Escaping the masses is no longer a viable option. If/When the dam bursts, those little blue splotches are going to expand rapidly and violently into what little black space is left searching for shelter, food, medicine, solace - and after a few days without food or water, they probably won't be too polite about it. If/When the government decides that those who prefer to fend for themselves (and have proven themselves capable of it) are "dangerous to society" and must be "assimilated" the first place they are going to look are the very few remaining dark spots on map. If you don't think one or both of these scenarios is going to happen, then you haven't been paying attention. Your little hidey-hole has probably already been identified and tagged on a government map with …


        "… plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints, and … twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against [you]... and pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to mention the aerial photography…"
        (Arlo Guthrie)


Long before Jefferson, Paine, and Meade warned us of the nature and danger of governments and the frailty of human conviction, Aristotle observed that: "A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side." If you take the time to work your way through the 192 modern countries of the world, you will note that all world leaders today (with the exception of a couple of brutal dictatorships who already have complete control over their populations) express a "deep, abiding faith" in whatever predominant religion or religiously-adhered-to philosophy holds sway among their citizenry. Does this mean there is something wrong with religion? Absolutely not! Does this mean that all world leaders are tyrants? Not really. What it implies, however, is that those cagey enough to attain the peak political office of a nation have apparently all read the same playbook.


I don't mean to question another person's faith, but I don't see how a truly religious man or woman could reconcile the necessities of politics with the tenets of their faith. Politics is about power, control, domination, retribution, economics, and compromise. It is replete with Machiavellian machinations, misdirection, broken promises and bold-faced lies. In politics there are no bright lines of delineation. It is a hazy, shadow world where right and wrong and good and bad cannot exist as concrete principles, but are rounded and worn by "shades of grey" into amorphous guidelines which need not be headed. "Right" becomes "less wrong" and "wrong" becomes "less right." "Good" becomes "the greater good" which dispels any notion of, or responsibility for, acts of injustice and undeniable evil against individuals or groups considered outside of that congregate of "the greater" determined to be deserving of the good. Evil becomes a "concept" that cannot be defined except as "that which opposes the ruling elite." Any action taken by the government is for "the greater good" - and often "for the glory of God." Any action taken against the government is "evil."


This is why the founders abhorred the idea of any religion established by the State. They understood that religion and politics do not mix and that any attempt to do so inevitable results in the corruption of both. It was not freedom "from" religion that they established, but freedom "of" religion. The freedom to worship your God in the manner in which you choose, as well as the freedom to choose not to worship at all. No man could be forced to worship and no man could force another to not worship.


Freedom of religion is one of many "checks" on the abuse of power. A devout worshiper - a person who truly adheres to the tenets and morals of their religion - is not plagued by ambiguity when it comes to right and wrong, good and evil, moral or immoral. "Thou shalt not kill" means "you never kill" - whether it concerns an enemy or a criminal or a slave or a pagan savage simply doesn't matter.


The founders knew that, while such a person could never effectively run or defend a country, the failure to cultivate such persons and ensure that they had the opportunity to give voice to their convictions would almost certainly hasten the downfall of the Nation. Moral certitude is the voice of "conscience" on the shoulders of government. Whether it is heeded in every instance or not, it serves as a constant reminder of the degree to which a particular action has strayed into the nebulous void of compromise or political expediency.


The founders knew that a limited government was necessary to ensure that the Nation could protect itself from other nations. They hoped to protect it's Citizens from themselves by restricting the powers of government in every conceivable way in hopes of keeping it from ever becoming the overbearing behemoth it is today. How could they envision that the inviolable rights and liberties that they so clearly enumerated - and the restrictions against encroachment upon them - would be so cruelly abused by future generations of politicians using "interpretation" of pure concepts, like gold, into the baser leaden muddle of their own ambitions?


We have met the enemy… and he is us. [Pogo]

(Continued in Part 3)

MEG
SSRsi http://www.ssrsi.org
March-April 2006
Title: Re: ID Resist - Look at how far we've come... (Pt.3)
Post by: MEG Raven on April 09, 2010, 10:02:47 pm
This is Part 3 of an article I wrote back in 2006 - it's still relevant today (maybe even more so) - but it highlights the fact that BOTH PARTIES are "progressive" and both parties are trying to create some nefarious future for anyone not elevated to their rarefied heights.

Modern politics is nothing more than a pleasant distraction provided for the masses:


"... it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."


It's purpose is to keep the common folk divided and too full of vitriol towards opposing (or even slightly differing, though basically supportive) points of view that they fail to notice what is really going on and ensures that they will never come together long enough to enforce their combined will upon those in power. It is the application of the "divide and conquer" strategy employed beneath the cloak of empowerment. The politicians are united in their purpose. To them, political affiliation is a mask they wear to get more votes than the guy with a different mask on. But if we look beneath the mask - if we appraise them not by what they say, but what they do - then we see that they are far more united and persistent than the Citizens of this country will ever be.


If we look at the political makeup of the people in power - the presidents and the parties in control of the Senate and the House from 1861 to the present, we find that the parties have held sway for pretty much equal amounts of time (107 years Republican/Whig and 108 years Democrat). For 215 years Republican and Democrat citizens have been at each other's throats, pointing fingers and hurling insults and accusations - and all this time the politicians have been smirking at us behind their masks. Are we any freer than we were in 1800? Are we even as free as we were then? Sure, we've given women the right to vote and freed the slaves (which should have been done in 1789 with the inception of our Nation) and then, 100 years later, gave them civil rights (which should have been done immediately), but these were corrections of omissions.


Our Constitution and the original Bill of Rights created our Nation and guaranteed certain Liberties and Rights - provided we were eternally vigilant in holding our government to task. At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic, Madame - if you can keep it" responded Franklin.


    "Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." - Thomas Jefferson


If you can keep it!
Franklin and the others knew that it all could be lost if we failed to keep our government in check. The Bill of Rights was a warning to the people of exactly how an unfettered government would seek to overthrow the rights and liberties wrested from the English monarchy by the Declaration of Independence and secured by the Constitution and the first ten amendments!


The U.S. Congress recently passed the REAL ID Act of 2005, which mandates federal requirements for driver's licenses. Critics argue that it would make driver's licenses into de facto national IDs. HR 1268 "Making emergency supplemental appropriations for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2005, to establish and rapidly implement regulations for State driver's license and identification... (Referred to Senate Committee after being Received from House)" was passed in the House of representatives on 16 March 2005. Starting in 2008, if you live or work in the United States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service. Practically speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to meet federal standards.


    When Social Security numbers were introduced in the 1930s, the system was “voluntary.” Citizens who worried about the biblical number of the Beast (Rev. 13: 16-18: "16He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.") or more mundane forms of tyranny were assured that, by law, the number would never -- ever -- be used for ID. In the tradition of nearly every limited, temporary, or voluntary government program our Social Security number eventually became our universal identifier. No law requires you to get a Social Security number, even today. But try functioning in the everyday world of work, banking, credit, schooling, home-buying, or even video rental without one. If national ID becomes U.S. law, five years from now you won’t be able to do any of these things without submitting to various biometric scans. But that’s barely the beginning. The new, more high-tech national ID system would enable the federal government and its contractors to follow and electronically analyze your activities in real-time -- to pinpoint your location, check your purchases, view records of your medical condition, and monitor your bank deposits and withdrawals as you make them, for instance. Worse yet, it ultimately gives government the ability to control your activities -- to (accidentally or deliberately) freeze your bank account, shut down your credit cards, deny you access to public transportation, forbid you entry into such public places as county courthouses, deny you health care, even deny you entrance to your job once your employer has (in the name of standardization, and possibly with the spur of federal subsidies or regulations) adopted the federal system. All at the click of a computer key, somewhere in Washington, D.C... ...This is still only the beginning. Shortly (after too many people have misplaced their cards, and too many criminals continued to get useable ID), the card-borne “smart chip” would be replaced by an implanted chip -- one of which, Digital Angel, is already on the market. Periodic scanning could then be augmented by 24-hour-a-day, satellite-based tracking. People in the U.S. will be watched and controlled far more thoroughly than Winston Smith was controlled by Big Brother in 1984 -- and for the very same reasons; to impose some social manager’s ideal of order.


    Adapted from Backwoods Home article "Living the outlaw life: National ID — Our Line in the Sand" by Claire Wolfe


Your entire life will be keyed to this card. Without this card, you will be unable to conduct a normal life. Your life (in the form of your identity and property) may be terminated at whim with a few keystrokes. You can be branded a terrorist, an outlaw, or a sexual pervert at will - and everyone will believe what the information returned by the card tells them, no matter what you say!


It is too late to stop implementation of the card. You have two years to prepare for it. Things will get harder and harder as time passes. And when the time comes, you either queue up or clam up - and become an outlaw. This is why you, as a self-reliant survivalist, are such a threat to the corporate government. This is why any Christian who has read and believes in Revelations 13:16-18, has just been branded a potential terrorist and/or outlaw. This is why BOTH groups will find ever closer monitoring of their activities and ever growing ridicule of their beliefs as the time draws nearer to the implementation of the National ID. It may be decades before implants are required. Decades in which the general population will be able to convince each other that "it's not so bad" and that acceptance of an implant is the "only logical solution" and that its refusal is too absurd to contemplate. That is when life as a citizen upon this earth will become a living nightmare for anyone daring to upset the order of things. The only people who could be reasonably expected to successfully evade implementation or aid those who wish to abstain are the very same people who have spent their lives learning to survive the worst that nature and warfare could throw at them - the Survivalists.


It really doesn't matter (to the government) whether you are a full-blown die-hard wilderness survival type, or just someone interested knowing how to take care of yourself, or a Christian, Republican, Democrat, Liberal, Conservative, Patriot, or flaming anti-government activist. All they want to know is will you submit to the card? If you will, then there's really no problem. In fact, you may even find a lucrative business prospect by infiltrating and informing on the groups who refuse. You can pretend to be whatever you want to be - because the government owns your entire identity and can turn it on or off, or change it entirely in just a few minutes. You are who they say you are. You are what they say you are.


By not accepting the card, you immediately become an outcast (if not an outlaw) and life becomes a bit more difficult. As long as cash is accepted, you may still be able to find menial labor, but you cannot have a bank account, you can't cash checks, you can't use credit cards and any credit that you did have will be lost. You won't be able to get a driver's license or license your car, so you won't be able to drive. Public transportation will (probably) eventually require that you scan your card before boarding, and if you don't have a card you might as well keep on walking, learn to skate, or get a bike. Of course, bikes will probably require licensing as well. Don't even think about getting on an airplane or even within an airport terminal without the card. Before long, you won't be able to enter public buildings - government offices, libraries, museums, concert halls, sports arenas, theaters, etc., and eventually apartment complexes, industrial and office buildings will be added to the list. You won't be able to own property if you can't pay the taxes on that property. Initially (since the government always wants money) you may be allowed to pay your taxes (if you can afford to, now that you have no bank account and can only accept and use cash) - but how will you pay without a card identifying your tax ID number and linking you to your property? Initially, you may be able to rent from someone willing to accept cash each month, but what happens when there are no places left to rent that accept cash. You won't be able to rent an apartment, remember, because apartment complexes require the card...


Sometime soon after the card is assimilated into society, accepted by almost everyone as pretty much harmless and much safer than credit cards, the government will announce that, despite Herculean efforts to combat it, there is an economic crises caused by the near miraculous ability of terrorists, terror nations, and drug dealers (for good measure) to counterfeit our dollars. The "solution" is a cashless society. The cards have proven to be a safe and effective method of identification - and they are already linked to your bank accounts, insurance, health care, taxpayer ID, 401k, etc. - what do we need cash for anyway?


A cashless society will be touted as a windfall against violent or anti-social crime. You can't buy or sell illegal drugs with the card, because the government will be monitoring all transactions. You can't fence stolen goods with the card for the same reason. And those who refuse to submit to the card won't be able to buy or sell anything. You can't pay for a prostitute with a card without the government knowing about it, and unless you are an identical twin to your victim - right down to the retinal scan and DNA markers, stealing a card from someone won't buy you anything.


Of course, none of this is true. We live in a technological age full of technological criminals - some of whom are quite intelligent - who now will be impressively motivated to exercise their talents. There is nothing a techno-geek likes more than a challenge, and telling them that technology exists that can't be duplicated or hacked is just the right enticement for them to get started. As far as selling drugs, all you need is a small art gallery. You buy some paint, some plaster, some canvas - chuck it all in the dumpster - sell your crack as hand-painted works of art and leave it up to the junkie to explain what he did with all your masterpieces. Something similar would work as well for fencing stolen goods, and what's wrong with a "business consultant" spending an hour in a cheap motel with a client? "Just doing market research, your honor... "


So if it won't really stop crime - and we all know it won't stop illegal immigration or terrorism - what is the purpose for these Draconian measures? Aside from the Antichrist intent on destroying humanity, why would a government go to such extreme measures? Remember, we are dealing with a Corporate Government here, and the only thing that motivates a corporation is Profit and Power. If everyone is linked to a card, which is linked to all financial activity, which is linked to the Corporate Government, then everyone pays taxes on every transaction automatically - and in a cashless society, no one is able to "cheat on their taxes." The government reaps in trillions of dollars once lost to innovative tax cheats. No one will need to fill out tax forms anymore. The Corporate Government knows how you get your money, how you spend it, and how much you have left. Taxes will be automated and you'll receive a statement each month online. The government will be able to reduce paperwork and personnel, resulting in a lower cost per dollar collected and a higher profit margin. Just think of all the votes they'll be able to buy then!!


Power may be secondary to some in the corporate world, but certainly not in the world of government. The power to control entire populations through the implementation of two simple steps - the card, and a cashless society - must be near orgasmic to those in charge.


The fact is, the card is no real danger (except as a precursor) if you don't mind taking your chances on the benevolence of your government. The fact is, the card will be universally accepted despite any and all grumbling challenges. Anyone protesting the card will be made to look the fool, unpatriotic, unreasonable, or downright paranoid and possibly a menace to society. We will all have a "Real ID" in the very near future. Those who are approached and are found to be without a "Real ID" will be detained, indefinitely, until one can be issued to them or until the reason they do not have a "Real ID" is determined to be criminal evasion of one sort another. These people will disappear into the penal system - perhaps to reemerge at some future date as a solid citizen who has paid their dues and accepted the card, or perhaps to never see the light of "freedom" again. Eventually everyone (even those incarcerated) will have a card assigned to them and everything will be peachy-keen. Until you step out of line, that is.


Lest you think this is simply a US phenomenon, think again. It's world-wide... (Do I have your attention yet?)


        "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes which were, for the moment, unpopular." [Edward R. Murrow]


        "Any single man must judge for himself whether circumstances warrant obedience or resistance to the commands of the civil magistrate; we are all qualified, entitled, and morally obliged to evaluate the conduct of our rulers. This political judgment, moreover, is not simply or primarily a right, but like self-preservation, a duty to God. As such it is a judgment that men cannot part with according to the God of Nature. It is the first and foremost of our inalienable rights without which we can preserve no other." [John Locke]


        "The Republic was not established by cowards; and cowards will not preserve it ... This will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave." [Elmer Davis]


        "It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings. ... Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things, which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it. Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. ... Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" [Patrick Henry]

(End of Article)

MEG
SSRsi http://www.ssrsi.org
March-April 2006
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: NO MAAM on October 15, 2014, 11:54:30 am
Looking for some help with refusing to give my Slave Surveillance Number to renew my DL.

In the past, when DLs were issued on site, I've been successful with claiming that I don't even have one. But now, the only reason the Wisconsin DMV will accept is a religious objection, with a completely preposterous form to be filled out and returned to them, for their probable rejection.

Little help?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 15, 2014, 01:00:13 pm
Looking for some help with refusing to give my Slave Surveillance Number to renew my DL.

In the past, when DLs were issued on site, I've been successful with claiming that I don't even have one. But now, the only reason the Wisconsin DMV will accept is a religious objection, with a completely preposterous form to be filled out and returned to them, for their probable rejection.

Little help?

Not sure what the object would be to refuse. If you are willing to get the DL, just wonder why it matters. Every government entity and probably most of the corporations in the country already have our SSN - all of us, no matter how hard we might have tried to keep it confidential... it's on thousands of data bases, along with everything else they might want to know about us. I don't worry about it anymore myself.  I figure it's their number. I didn't ask for it and don't use it myself. What they do with it is out of my control... what's to worry about? :)
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: NO MAAM on October 15, 2014, 03:57:42 pm
The object?...To tell bureaucrats the one thing they hate most to hear: "no"...And if every gubmint entity already has it, what's the point in demanding it from me now?

Anyways, I have one of those throwback edition SS cards, that says "NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION" on the bottom of it.

In general, I've refused to disclose it for any purpose not related to taxes or credit reporting, since the mid 80s....It's just nobody's damned business.

But the form the DMV drone shoved in at me to declare a religious objection, though I didn't even raise the issue, is a real pip.....Doesnt appear that I can insert a pic or upload it as an attachment, though.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: MamaLiberty on October 15, 2014, 04:18:41 pm
The object?...To tell bureaucrats the one thing they hate most to hear: "no"...And if every gubmint entity already has it, what's the point in demanding it from me now?

If that's the object... why get the DL then? You submit on one hand and resist on the other? It's your life, of course. Not knocking it, just don't see any real advantage to doing that.

Quote
Anyways, I have one of those throwback edition SS cards, that says "NOT TO BE USED FOR IDENTIFICATION" on the bottom of it.

Yep, had one too. Means exactly as much as any other piece of government paper bearing promises or assurances. Been used as ID for a long time, and is now totally worthless for even that.

Quote
In general, I've refused to disclose it for any purpose not related to taxes or credit reporting, since the mid 80s....It's just nobody's damned business.

Agreed, but that is immaterial to the actual problem. A great many people have made it their business - regardless of what we think or want. And they already have that number everywhere. The requirement to put it on this form and that is merely an exercise of subjugation and compliance. They already HAVE that number, so writing it down is not going to give it to them.

Quote
But the form the DMV drone shoved in at me to declare a religious objection, though I didn't even raise the issue, is a real pip.....Doesnt appear that I can insert a pic or upload it as an attachment, though.

I'm sure it is quite nasty. Again, it really doesn't do you any good if you filled it out. They already have your number. Might as well deal with that, my friend. :)
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Bear on October 15, 2014, 06:55:58 pm
I remember that there used to be a guy who hung around on this forum
who refused to get a drivers license or register his vehicle. He was arrested,
of course, and spent a lot of time in jail waiting for his trial*. When the trial
eventually was held, he won and was exonerated. However, being a stubborn
swede (his own description) he couldn't leave it alone, and tried to follow
the DA around with a sign explaining why the DA was corrupt.

That got him arrested for stalking, and he is still doing time in state prison I believe.

Anyone remember the guys's name?

Bear

* An interesting point - one of his arguments was that the court did not have
   jurisdiction to decide such a case, but signing a plea for bail _gave_ the court
   the jurisdiction it need to try him.

Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Silver on October 16, 2014, 07:58:49 am
His name was Winston Ward Johnson. He posted here as suijurisfreeman.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind. on October 17, 2014, 03:25:26 am
His name was Winston Ward Johnson. He posted here as suijurisfreeman.

If you're familiar with what sui juris means in latin, then yes, yes you are, until you submit to the system, and like every other thing "of the devil" the system is rigged to trap you even better than one of the Wishmaster's questions.  (Awesome movies, 1/2 at least, 3/4 kinda sucked.)

Back to the point, there is very little way to escape, and they can always lock you up until you sign even a small form to request water because they won't give it to you.  Indeed, they CAN disappear you.  Sadly, short of a massive violent revolt including the public executions (communist style) of ALL scumbags who were complicit in this... nothing will change.  Even then, supercop asshats may seize the reigns and become just as bad, using the tools their at that time "deceased" predecessors helped create.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: NO MAAM on October 17, 2014, 03:08:48 pm
Anyways, I'm pretty well versed on the concepts that I've entered into their jurisdiction by accepting their license, it's not my number it's their number, etcetera.

If it were that I didn't very often venture outside my rather remote locale in the Wisconsin north woods, where incursions with LEOs are rare, I'd probably just leave the DL expired and go along my merry way....But my construction work on hospitality projects takes me through hundreds of jurisdictions in numerous states every year...I'm not terribly optimistic about the results of trying to give some donut cop in Boll Weevil Junction, Alabama, a primer on my constitutional right to freely travel on a public right-of-way....Indeed, I followed the exploits of a John Van Hove some years back, who was doing the very same thing where he lived...The reports I got back mostly involved him spending a lot of time bailing himself out of jail and spnding plenty of face time with judges.

Even so, I still get a twisted sort of pleasure at telling the flatfoot bureaucrat "no" and smelling the ozone in the air, as they fry circuits trying to process someone who refuses to go baaabaabaa and fill out their boilerplate forms like a good little Kulak.....But, as far as this case is concerned, it appears as though I may have met my match, as the form they demand to grant an exception is pretty much designed to defy being filled ou to anyone's satisfaction.


Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind. on October 20, 2014, 12:55:48 pm
I'd love to help, but frankly, there isn't much I can leave said that promotes freedom.  When in Rome, do as the Romans do.  And on this trip, it means Submit.  Or sell everything off and sail off into the sunset and find a better place.

Just remember... as I learned, guns aren't everything... or anything much at all, if your neighbors suck, and the weather's worse, and the local economy is based on backstabbing each other, you're better off in a place where guns are illegal, but people are helpful.  That way, if you have to shoot a bad guy, and your neighbors cover for your "illegal" piece, you're better off than a place where its all about "the law."

America (the USA) is such a "nation of laws."  In fact, I'm willing to wager that if not yet, then very soon, laws will outnumber the human population of the USA.  Guess it really is a nation of laws.  If they were sentient and allowed to vote, laws would win every election!

Think on that.

Remember that practical freedom is more important than "legal" freedom.  I wish you luck.

Everything else irrelevant pruned.  Comment Pruned.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: FDD on October 20, 2014, 02:11:32 pm
Boston could have picked a better place for his little free state project.

May I ask where you would have gone and started a Free State Project?

Which State? and Why?
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind. on October 20, 2014, 04:07:17 pm
Boston could have picked a better place for his little free state project.

May I ask where you would have gone and started a Free State Project?

Which State? and Why?

One with a good economy.  Wyoming is a futile effort.  An effort towards freedom will find more foothold with democrats than republicans.  You get a democrat shooting, they like it and question their premises.  You can't get a republican to consider "them pot smokers" anything but scum who should be exterminated... at someone else's expense, preferably.

Wyoming owes its entire financial status to government funds.  It is a BAD place.  If you plan to move and vanish, Wyoming is perfect.  If you aren't a retiree and don't feel like burning yourself out working in the mining field or oil rough necking, or maybe you're just very well educated in fields where Wyo is bad?  Tough shit.  They tell you "spend all your money and get out!"  Its a state motto.  Ironically the state's largest companies pay more than most republican "red" states combined in federal taxes.  Very little comes back.  It is a candidate for secession.  But it won't secede over logical stuff like government theft and restrictions on freedom, sheriffs who believe "people have a RIGHT to feel PROTECTED" get elected, and logical questions over what a right to feel actually means are glossed over.  They might secede over gay marriage and abor"shun".  Ironic.  As long as someone else does the paying and the fighting afterwards.

Its a great place to retire if you like peace and quiet and murderously vicious cold weather season.  Good luck if you intend to work for a living in any field not related to government or mineral extraction.  Ranchers with 7000 acres make around 50 grand a year selling beef, sheep and related products, and the wife works as a teacher or some other government employment.  Otherwise they go broke.

Your typical pro freedom character is often an IT guy, or other intelligent / intellectually interested individual with some measure of intellectual and moral integrity.  You won't find many here.  The few I knew RAN OFF screaming.  I'm not a free stater, myself, and never will pay homage to his royal highness Royce.  That said, because I'm a gun guy, I got lumped in with the rest of the group when it comes to locals shunning us as if we were murderers.  Ironically in towns of 1200 people, there's two gun shops both making money.  Ironies abound.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: GK on April 25, 2015, 10:56:00 pm
people who "need" new ID are typically fugitives from justice and/or illegal aliens. aiding and abetting a fugitive is a felony, dudes.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: PMouserOSU on May 13, 2016, 03:58:43 am
what will really be nessary is resisting the implanted RFID chip, for Bible reasons. ty God bless you
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Cherokee on May 13, 2016, 03:08:47 pm
I like the idea Bill suggested. A number, fake tattooed on a forehead and the words "Real ID".

I don't do fedbook anymore,  but those who do could circulate the meme,...maybe even include a link to a website for a more detailed article or info about the dangers.
Title: Re: ID Resist
Post by: Lonewolf72 on May 27, 2016, 01:53:19 pm
Looking for some help with refusing to give my Slave Surveillance Number to renew my DL.

In the past, when DLs were issued on site, I've been successful with claiming that I don't even have one. But now, the only reason the Wisconsin DMV will accept is a religious objection, with a completely preposterous form to be filled out and returned to them, for their probable rejection.

Little help?

Go without a license. Minnesota is sounding like they are going to go with the Feds Real ID for drivers licenses soon. I'm going to be getting a horse nd buggy. Wanted one for a number of years, and this is the perfect excuse. They can take their fancy cards a put them where the sun don't shine.