The Mental Militia Forums

Special Interest => Hardyville => Topic started by: Augustwest on September 04, 2003, 08:13:38 am

Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Augustwest on September 04, 2003, 08:13:38 am
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And I can't quite imagine how that dulcet phrase is going to sound, echoing from hill to hill and down toward the town accompanied by volleys of gunfire.

Is there any chance there might be a .wav file of that posted somewhere, sometime? I hope so, t'would "make my day."   :P

If a handgun is all that's available, this concept makes a great deal of sense.

I'm of the mind, though, that the sound of the action cycling on yer basic Win Defender or 870 is pretty authoratative all by its lonesome.

"Speak softly," and whatnot...

Thanks, Ms. Wolfe, for some sound advice, and a good chuckle.
 
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Bill St. Clair on September 04, 2003, 10:07:27 pm
kerchunk! (http://billstclair.com/kerchunk.mp3)
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Augustwest on September 05, 2003, 07:53:39 am
kerchunk, indeed  :)  
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Ian on September 05, 2003, 10:57:44 am
FWIW, Augustwest, I think the verbal compliance idea was intended for use when accosted on the street or something like that, rather than when defending one's home.  
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Augustwest on September 05, 2003, 11:42:03 am
Ian-

What makes you think I don't walk down the streets of my town with a 12-guage over my shoulder?  ;)

I agree completely about the intent of the idea. I just can't shut up sometimes, is all.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Claire on September 05, 2003, 06:13:39 pm
LOL. Sorry, no wav. file. Me screaming, "Back off M----------r!" is something you just have to experience live and in person.

And although I agree with you about the virtue of pump action, I just can't make the darned shotgun fit in my fanny pack.

C
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Augustwest on September 06, 2003, 09:29:13 am
M'thinks a bigger pack is in order.

Now, how to make a 39" fanny pack subtle, unobtrusive, and able to fit through a car door?

hmmmmmmmm...
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Hunter on September 09, 2003, 10:02:56 pm
The value of a pistol is that it is a defensive arm, small enough to always be with you when you need it. Its entire tactical function is to allow you to fight your way back to where you stupidly left your rifle (or other longarm of your choice). Verbal compliance is an important rung on the ladder of force, and I have yet to take a firearms self-defence course where it was not emphasized, for all the reasons Claire cited. Never forget that the vast majority of armed encounters are ended without a shot fired - last statistics I have seen say 13 out of 14 times. But it is still essential that the will to fight be present, and that is one small part of what verbal complaince demonstrates to your assailant.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Carl on September 09, 2003, 10:15:14 pm
Hi, Hunter. Long time, no see.

[QUOTE}Verbal compliance is an important rung on the ladder of force, and I have yet to take a firearms self-defence course where it was not emphasized, for all the reasons Claire cited.[/QUOTE]

Says the man who has clearly been paying for _quality_ training out of his own pocket (as opposed to tax-victims' pockets). During 12+ years of military and state cop experience combined, verbal compliance was _never_ an element of any gov firearms course. And "malf drills" invariably consisted of raising one's hand when one's gun stopped working.

I suspect the latter stupidity has led to an occasional hand wound in actual combat. One does as one trains. ;)  
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Claire on September 09, 2003, 10:43:43 pm
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Says the man who has clearly been paying for _quality_ training out of his own pocket
Yeah, I'm with Carl. I've taken three ... maybe 3 1/2, handgun training courses over the years. Most were just local cops or competitors teaching for an afternoon, nothing formal. But one was with Michael Harries, the former Gunsite instructor. Never even heard of verbal compliance until the class as the conclave last weekend.

I'm glad to have heard of it now, though. All you have to do is bark that warning once or twice as you draw your weapon and you see the force and authority it conveys, not only in the mind of any prospective bad guy (or so I'd assume), but to your own mind and body. Makes a huge difference.

And if you're a relative newbie, you might even find that the big yell helps cut down on the flinchies and mashies. When you're barking, "BACK OFF!" it's hard to think, "Oh, is the gun going to kick?" or "Oh, is my trigger pull just right?" Somehow,the yell helps pull everything together into one smooth motion. At least, it did for me.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Carl on September 10, 2003, 12:25:34 am
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And if you're a relative newbie, you might even find that the big yell helps cut down on the flinchies and mashies. When you're barking, "BACK OFF!" it's hard to think, "Oh, is the gun going to kick?" or "Oh, is my trigger pull just right?"
It can help -- in that respect -- in a training environment. And it can deter some goblins. ('Though drawing and simply tellin' 'em they may need to reconsider sometimes works -- see the tale of my Atlanta adventure.) But my experience is that in the real world, when it's time, trigger control really isn't on your mind at all...

Which is why practice (see earlier comments re:doing as you train) is essential.

If you really want to train under simulated "adrenaline rush" conditions, pop a handful of caffeine tablets before hitting the range, after staying up all night. (I hit on that combo by accident while a cop in GA.)
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Stan on September 10, 2003, 08:29:26 am
I recently assisted my stepdaughter in the purchase of a Winchester "Lady Defender" 20 gauge pump action shotgun for home defense.

Our first trip to the range, her first time shooting a shotgun, and she hits the silhouette target right in the head.  I was so proud, thinking to myself, home invasion problem SOLVED.

On the rifle side of the range, there is always some exotic weaponry, AK47s, AR15s etc.  But the first time the shotgun is fired, you can see all the heads pop around the corner with a "what was THAT?" look on their faces.

You just gotta love the shotgun.  $400 can by a lot of protection.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Hunter on September 10, 2003, 06:43:12 pm
There is no question that a shotgun is the most effective point defence weapon readily available. Within their limitations and with proper training, there is simply nothing else that can match them. BUT (there is always a but), their limited range, accuracy, effective rate of fire, and the bulk and weight of ammunition do place some pretty strict limits on their tactical employment.

In most urban home defence scenarios, those drawbacks probably won't come into play. But if you live in a rural environment the chances that you will run into them rise dramatically. Out in the sticks where I live, I keep a loaded pistol, rifle, AND shotgun ready to hand. And that is only the "teeth" of a deeply layered defensive system that I'm always looking for ways to improve. Each element is there for a reason, and I try to have a plan of response worked out for every contingency I can think of. Of course, it will be something I never even considered that will crop up and bite me in the backside. <shrug> TANSTAAFL, I guess.

 
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Locke on September 10, 2003, 07:05:45 pm
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And "malf drills" invariably consisted of raising one's hand when one's gun stopped working.
Heh. My first Malfunction drill with a pistol was when I shot a borrowed G19 with crossed thumbs (I'd been revolver-only until then). It bit; it jammed; TAP/RACK/BANG fixed it just fine. Though my time on that string of fire was slowed a bit.

After that, I had to get my own. :)

I need more practice!
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Claire on September 10, 2003, 07:21:40 pm
Quote
Quote
And "malf drills" invariably consisted of raising one's hand when one's gun stopped working.
Heh. My first Malfunction drill with a pistol was when I shot a borrowed G19 with crossed thumbs (I'd been revolver-only until then). It bit; it jammed; TAP/RACK/BANG fixed it just fine. Though my time on that string of fire was slowed a bit.

After that, I had to get my own. :)

I need more practice!
OUUUUUUUCH!

Locke, "ketchup" of that sort we don't need to feed the Liberty Tree.

 ;)

And back to Carl for a moment, did they really (!) teach you just to raise your hand when a firearm malfunctioned? Wowee, pretty scary. And think of all our anti-gun friends who believe only people with that sort of training are fit to keep and bear arms.

Claire
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Hunter on September 10, 2003, 07:25:12 pm
Hey, I want to encourage that sort of training.... for "them". <wink>
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Carl on September 10, 2003, 10:13:55 pm
behind
Quote
And back to Carl for a moment, did they really (!) teach you just to raise your hand when a firearm malfunctioned?
I kid you: The Air Farce taught 'em to grasp the m-16 with the off hand, raise the "trigger" hand, and wait for someone to come check the rifle.

At least Georgia let you keep the pistol in your primary hand. <_<

I like to tell folks about that when they stoutly maintain that only our well-trained cops and soldiers should be armed.

Anybody wanna hear about the officer who shot shot the building behind the firing line and pitched her shotgun down range when it scared her? :blink:  
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Sunni on September 11, 2003, 10:57:09 am
Quoth the Demi-Goddess:
Quote
And if you're a relative newbie, you might even find that the big yell helps cut down on the flinchies and mashies. When you're barking, "BACK OFF!" it's hard to think, "Oh, is the gun going to kick?" or "Oh, is my trigger pull just right?" Somehow,the yell helps pull everything together into one smooth motion. At least, it did for me.
I agree. Last year I shot our gun guru's handgun course for the first time, with a mini-Glock I'd not fired before. Despite it being rather hard to control for me, and my frustration at not getting more lead through paper, I know I smoothed out a lot of problems with my technique.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Jac on September 11, 2003, 02:39:12 pm
Augustwest said:
Quote
M'thinks a bigger pack is in order.

Now, how to make a 39" fanny pack subtle, unobtrusive, and able to fit through a car door?

hmmmmmmmm...
Correction, a 16.5" fanny pack. :D

Serbu Super Shorty (http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm)

Good luck tryin' to control the bloody thing! :ph34r: Of course, they are NFAized, so it's not like you can get one anyway... but it's a nice fantasy.

(Thanks to Bill's blog for the link)
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Bill St. Clair on September 11, 2003, 02:59:47 pm
Oohhh! Thanx for the reminder of the Serbu Super Shorty. I drool whenever I look at that picture. One day I won't be able to stand it any more and I'll make my very own whippet (double-barreled shotgun cut short in the barrel and the stock), legal or not.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Augustwest on September 11, 2003, 03:27:23 pm
m'thinks there's some folks here who don't love their wrists so much  ;)

There's a class III dealer in my town who sells those, or something very much like them, and every time I see them, all I can think is, "ouch."

I'm not interested in getting anymore "papered" than I already am, and like my wrists, so I doubt I'll be partaking, but I believe the NFA tax on those would only be $5.00.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Bill St. Clair on September 11, 2003, 04:43:58 pm
I own an 18" barrel Winchester 1300 pistol grip 12-gauge that I keep under my bed at night. I have fired 12-pellet 00-buck loads out of it (Remington's "Bear Load") on numerous occasions. I added a front pistol grip so that it wouldn't rise out of my front hand when fired. I've discovered that as long as I keep my front elbow locked and hold the front grip firmly, I do not get hurt when I fire even this stout a load. One ounce slugs are easy.

I'm 5'11" and weight over 240 pounds, so if you're smaller your mileage may vary
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Jac on September 11, 2003, 07:19:10 pm
I'm actually pretty fond of my wrists... I just like things that go BOOM better. B)

And I'm with you, Bill. Legal or not, I want a little cut-down shotgun. Very fun! BTW, you're welcome for the reminder. :D

--Jac



P.S.  Yes, the NFA tax is only 5 dolla, since it's an AOW.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Augustwest on September 12, 2003, 08:11:36 am
I'm delicate.  :D

Bill, you've got a couple inches in height, and about 90 lbs on me.

In the realm of great minds thinkin' alike, I too trust hearth and home to a Win 1300 Defender. With the stock stock on it though.

Hmmmmm, if I bought shares in whichever company made that shoulder thing on my shotgun, would I own stock stock stock?

And if I used it to guard a herd?

Nevermind...
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Bear on September 29, 2003, 07:11:17 pm
About verbal compliance:

Anyone consider yelling whatever it is the cops are likely to yell (without the word 'police') just to spread confusion?
If the cops or the intended perps pause to consider if you're and undercover cop (without actually having said so), it could
buy you a few important moments.

What d'ya think?

Bear
 
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Hasher on October 11, 2003, 10:38:52 pm
Actually Verbal compliance is a huge factor. Ayoob preaches it, Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch and his team preach it, John Farnham preaches and teaches it as well.

Believe me I would rather try verbal compliance before I pull the trigger (assuming that there is a need for ti and it is not quite time to start shooting yet) than spend upwards of $50k defending  myself in court when I might have been able to stop the fight before it really got started.

Whoever said the hand gun is for fighting your way back to the long gun you follishly left behind/put down is absolutly correct. The hand gun can be readily carried with you every where and is handy and convienent. If I knew I were goign to be in a gun fight my first chouce would be to not be there. my second choice would be a long gun of some sort like and AR 15 or my Benelli, and a bunch of heavily arrmed friends. The handgun is a poor fight stopper at best no matter what the caliber.

Now on to my pet peve.

Whoever thinks that the sound of your shotgun being racked is going to solve the problem is sadly mistaken. First of all the one time you are going to need to take an immediate shot is when you have the shotgun in this condition and subscribe to this theory. You are not going to get a time out and say" Hold on a  sec Mr. Baddie I need to load this before I shoot you".

Second if you do rack the gun and expect it to freeze a hardened criminal in his place, you are instead telling him that you just brought an unloaded firearm to a gunfight. I would also be wondering if you really have a loaded gun at that point or are just bluffing at hta tpoint.

The proper proceduere IMHO is to take up an "Ensconced Defender" position, give him one chance with verbal compliance, and then if he moves toward where you are to begin shooting till the threat is stopped. This assumes a home scenario.

For a street scenario I would be yelling as I drew and would then procede as indicated by his response.

BTW you can always spot the Thunder Ranch grads at the other schools. On the first string of the first relay they are the ones who scream at the top of thier lungs "DON"T MOVE!!!! DROP YOUR WEAPON!!!!"

Hasher
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Carl on October 11, 2003, 10:49:41 pm
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Second if you do rack the gun and expect it to freeze a hardened criminal in his place, you are instead telling him that you just brought an unloaded firearm to a gunfight. I would also be wondering if you really have a loaded gun at that point or are just bluffing at hta tpoint.
_Expect_? No, think it's worth a try? Yes.

On just one occasion, I had three would-be muggers take off running simply because I put my hand on my pistol.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever really been on the potential receiving end of a weapon you just heard charged in a combat environment? If you ever hear _me_ rack my gun before pointing it at you, feeel suicidally free to assume I've brought "an unloaded firearm to a gunfight."
 ;)  
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Hasher on October 11, 2003, 11:19:45 pm
Actually yes I have been. It was at a hotel we were at for an LFI class and my buddy inside the room was not sure who was at the door (me). I heard him drop the slide on an auto pistol and immediatly moved ot cover. If I was a BG and heard that I would either start running or start shooting. Either way I never want an empty gun in my hands in any kind of situation. But I guess it is personal opinon ( as well as that of a lot of the nations top instructors).

 
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Carl on October 12, 2003, 12:17:18 pm
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Either way I never want an empty gun in my hands in any kind of situation. But I guess it is personal opinon ( as well as that of a lot of the nations top instructors).
You're still losing me on this "empty gun" thing. Why would you  assume that hearing a weapon charged means it is unloaded?

Side note: What was your friend doing that made it necessary to draw simply because someone knocked on his door?
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Chris on October 12, 2003, 03:20:52 pm
I've always considered a weapon without a round in the chamber to be unloaded, regardless of the condition of the magazine.  

As for chambering the ol' pump gun to ward off a threat, IMO it's not such a great idea.  If you chamber a round and the bad guy hears it, he might decide to run away.  Or, he might just decide to go Iraqi Offhand*, and you get tagged with a lucky slug.  Better not to the the BG know that you're there.

If you wait until you can see the BG to rack your gun, well, good luck.  For one thing, that implies that you plan on clearing your domicile yourself.  I wouldn't clear my house solo, and I sure as hell wouldn't do it with a gun that ain't ready to shoot.  If the BG gets the drop on you, you'll need that round in the chamber (and a lot of luck.)

Just me, but my home defense plan involves setting up at a choke point (top of the stairs) and waiting for the goblins to come to me.  YMMV.

- Chris

* - Iraqi Offhand is a well known, poorly regarded CQB technique that involves shooting blindly through walls, floors, etc. in the direction of a suspected threat.  As bad an idea as this sounds, it has worked before in the past.  

 
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: enemyofthestate on October 12, 2003, 03:40:14 pm
Quote
* - Iraqi Offhand is a well known, poorly regarded CQB technique that involves shooting blindly through walls, floors, etc. in the direction of a suspected threat.  As bad an idea as this sounds, it has worked before in the past.
I always thought that "Iraqi offhand" was another name for "High over the head position" used for shooitng over cars, walls, sandbags, etc without exposing yourself too much to return fire.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Hunter on October 12, 2003, 03:42:31 pm
If I own it, I charge it. Not much good otherwise. That includes one in the chamber for most actions, though there's a few I don't consider that safe for long term unattended storage.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Carl on October 12, 2003, 04:47:56 pm
Quote
I've always considered a weapon without a round in the chamber to be unloaded, regardless of the condition of the magazine.
 
That way lies accidental suicide, methinks. If you can think of no reason why your gun might not be loaded/charged 24/7, please don't clean your firearms around me.

Scaring off a goblin when racking a shotgun was brought up as a potential beneficial side effect, not a specific recommended tactic.
Title: 9/4 blog - Verbal Compliance
Post by: Chris on October 13, 2003, 06:34:30 am
Well, there is Rule #1, of course.  I tend to shoot mine clean, anyhow.  ;)

Just pointing out that the slide-rack challenge, benefits aside, has some pretty serious drawbacks as well.  I'd avoid it.  

enemyofthestate - You may well be right

- Chris