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[OLD TIRED RN]

Being from the south, naturally I was raised by these manners and one dared NOT break any of them with my father.  I'm sometimes not as strict on them as maybe I should be like if I'm very fatigued (which is often with my heart trouble) or sometimes wrapped up in a conversation with someone else and just plain forget. 

However, the big majority of the time, I still observe these manners where ladies are concerned and raised my son the same way.  I most certainly wouldn't want to force these things where a lady desired otherwise, but almost every time I carry out these things, ladies seem to appreciate it.

I also admit I do these things mostly where the older ladies are concerned.  They truly do appreciate when men observe their gender as well as their age with the frailty that comes with it.

More than that, I routinely give up a seat, not only for a lady, but an elderly gentleman who is feeble, needing a seat,or so that he may be seated nearer his family, a warmer spot, or whatever. 

To me, it's all about courtesy and respect as well as helping others along life's way.  My wife always loves it.

                         Respectfully,  RN

[iloilo]

Beyond just plain old brilliance, a man who demonstrates manners, up to and including standing when I come into the room, will get a lot more attention from me than the chap who sits with his cap on in the living room and who charges out the door leaving me on my own.  Most men only stand when women enter if the situation is formal, but many men I know still stand until a woman entering the room is seated, although I never heard of the "at attention" thing until this thread.  I always stood when my grandmother entered the room, just to be sure she could have any chair she wanted.  I so appreciate gestures of kindness and consideration from men.  I know they appreciate the same from me.

I appreciate the concern for my comfort, the attention to my presence, and the care and recognition of my person these actions indicate.   On the other hand, I will no doubt cook for, offer coffee or tea to, and go a bit out of my way to ensure the comfort of these man. 

Each individual has a different response to other individuals, and the trick of good manners is knowing what yours are and sticking to them for everyone.  Doing so helps us all to sort each other into the people we want to have around, and those we would just as soon hang out somewhere else. If you don't like to open doors or have them opened for you , you will find each other and be content.  Most men on this forum whom I know - and certainly those men I welcome at any time in my house, ages 13 to 130, are the men who take off hats, open doors and are generally kind and considerate.  But then, so am I, and I appreciate reciprocity. 

I hope I will always appreciate acts of kindness and concern.  I hope I never, ever give any person, man or woman, reason to think I would not appreciate any kind gesture they care to extend on my behalf.  And I hope I never forget to be as kind and caring.  Such acts are the lubricants of social life and of human existence, IMHO.
 

[Pagan]

Hear! Hear! feralfae...

I agree with your post, but in particular this,

I appreciate the concern for my comfort, the attention to my presence, and the care and recognition of my person these actions indicate.

,

which indicates the acknowledgement of the individual.

There are so many people today of both sexes who won't even look you in the eye at any time; e.g. while hurrying to reach the door first tells you that they're aware of your presence (or they wouldn't be trying to beat you to the door), yet they won’t acknowledge your existence by looking at you.

I do believe that many men and women haven't been taught manners or social protocol (of that particular society in which they live). On the other hand, I also know many parents who do teach manners to their kids but don't follow their own rules. Like "monkey see, monkey do", those kids will grow up without manners too, copying what their parents do, not what they say.

~
While this thread speaks to Gentlemen’s Etiquette, there is also such a thing as Ladies’ Etiquette. Not taking advantage of a man’s strength, good will, or acquiescence when unnecessary and not using “helplessness” as a flirting technique is a big factor in establishing good relationships with men; while doing so is an even bigger factor in putting off men these days when they are more aware of women’s equality.

Because they are aware of equality, and because they are viewed by many feminists as less-than-the-sum-of-their-parts (to put it politely), many men have become more suspicious of women’s actions and motivation. Some men are afraid to open doors, afraid to stand in a woman’s presence, afraid to acknowledge women as “different” from men in any way for fear of being verbally attacked or accused of being chauvinistic or sexist.
In short, women themselves have spawned some of this ‘ungentlemenly’ activity.

[NuclearDruid]

I just read this little essay on Chivalry by one of the authors that I like, John Ringo. Thought this would be a good place to link it.

ND

Opening blurb.

Wilders, Mujaheddin and Marines

Lemme tell you a secret. The only difference between these three groups rests on one word: Chivalry.

"Men are pigs" or so Tim Allen tells us. I agree. At bottom, all men are animals. So are women. We are hard-wired for certain reactions and that hard-wiring can be shown both empirically in human society and in terms of (dare I say it?) evolution. Lets take a look at the biological aspect first.

[da gooch]

"Alert

   The URL is invalid and cannot be loaded."

[Pagan]

Try:

http://johnringo.com/Unpublished/Unpublishedopeds/Chivalry.asp

[da gooch]

OK  got it.

And after reading it I have to admit he makes a pretty good argument.

Not that there is any scientific way to prove or disprove his thesis BUT I, for one, think he's more right than wrong.

Quote
{The factor in Western Civilization that prevents men from denigrating women is "chivalry." Chivalry, in reference to women, evolved from "courtliness", or the social process, initially found only among the upper class, of wooing a prospective bride (or a casual lay.) Courtliness, in turn, evolved from the reintroduction of the Cult of Mary, creating a female role model that said, in effect, "women have value."}

 I understand from "Who were the Celts" by Kevin Duffy
[Barnes and Noble 1996 // ISBN-13:  978-0-7607-1608-3  // ISBN-10 0-7607-1608-0 ]
that chivalry was common among the prechristian Celtic peoples and is thought to have been a societal response to "honoring the Goddess". [They had more Goddesses than Gods]
{Is that where my Celtic Libido comes from ? ?}
Ahem  .....

 

[Tiffany]

I absolutely believe that a man should practice these points of etiquette.  Along the same lines, there are points of etiquette a lady should always practice.  These were taught to me by my mother, and I hate finding out that other women were not ever taught how to be a "lady".

1. Never interrupt a conversation in progress.

2. Always be gracious, and smile when your husband or beau walks in the room.  People (especially other women) love drama, and love starting rumors.  All it takes is a misplaced frown when your spouse walks in the room and the whispers will start.

3. Even if you KNOW your husband is wrong, keep your tongue until you are in private.  Along the same lines, always champion your man.  If he is not holding his own, grab your longsword and defend him.  Period.

4. Always, always, always come when called.  No conversation is too important that you cannot be called away by the man you profess to love.  Excuse yourself graciously and attend to your man.  Never leave him waiting for more time than it takes to stop and pour him his favorite drink.

5. Make an attempt to be "lovely" for your husband daily.  If you're sick, that's a different story, but all other things withstanding, try to dab a bit of perfume on your neck and a bit of lip gloss on those luscious lips just before he walks in the door.

6. Don't air your dirty laundry in public.  Your husband has enough manners to help you put on your coat and open the door for you.  You need to show him the same respect in turn by not complaining to your friends or family about his snoring, irritating habits or tone of voice.  Those are not anybody else's business.  They didn't marry him, you did.  Cope.

7. Say please and thank you.  A proper woman does not forget her manners in anybodies presence.

8.  And last but not least, after doing all of these things during the day, bring the walls down in the bedroom at night.  The perfect woman, as everybody knows, is a lady in public and a whore in bed.

The moral is, of course, that women have rules that they "ought" to follow as well.  I notice more and more that people wear their blue jeans to the opera, argue in public, don't know how to set a table, and refuse to be kind and chivalrous to one another.  It's pathetic, and it makes me sad.  I wish more women were ladies and more men were gentlemen - but that's the way it is, I suppose.  I have a theory about this that has something to do with bad breeding and liberal politics, but I'll keep that to myself.

[slidemansailor]

reciprocity

I really liked Tiffany's post as balance to the true gentleman posts preceeding it. 

I try to be mostly a gentleman as defined above, but some of the stuff is too much fluff for my natural comfort zone and sometimes my head is in a world of its own and I don't think until too late to do the right thing.

Late in life I found a great mate who would like to be Taffany's lady as much as I would like to be a really good gentleman.  We hit it right often enough that it works for us.

It's the bank-account thing.  Make enough deposits in the goodwill account and you can afford some withdrawals without having the account closed.  She and I both try to keep them strongly in the black.

[OLD TIRED RN]

Great posts slidemansailor and Tiffany.  Mine is several posts above in this colum. I appreciate both of yours very much.

                                       RN

[Erin]

*

[Tiffany]

That whole Madonna/whore thing pisses me off.

Oh?  What about it bothered you?

[iloilo]

Feralfae adds a bit of thought:

I think it is possible to be a beautiful, brainy, brilliant, desirable, sensual, sexual, delightful, entertaining woman who absolutely, enthusiastically relishes sex with the man she adores (and slightly worships, btw), without allowing anyone to begin attaching stereotypical images of virgins or wantonly indiscriminate females to this individual woman's appreciation of her delicious participation, with the man she loves, in the world's best pastime .

But, okay, that is just me.

[Tiffany]

Feralfae adds a bit of thought:

I think it is possible to be a beautiful, brainy, brilliant, desirable, sensual, sexual, delightful, entertaining woman who absolutely, enthusiastically relishes sex with the man she adores (and slightly worships, btw), without allowing anyone to begin attaching stereotypical images of virgins or wantonly indiscriminate females to this individual woman's appreciation of her delicious participation, with the man she loves, in the world's best pastime .

But, okay, that is just me.

Did I subconsciously do that?  *reads and re-reads my original thoughts*  If I wasn't clear in communicating it, here is what I meant by "lady in public, whore in bed":
A woman doesn't need to be polite ALL the time.  There are situations (ie - while relishing sex with the man she adores and slightly worships) where being a "lady" isn't appropriate.  Being completely free of all social niceties in this situation is what would be more appropriate, hence the "whore" image.  I didn't mean to push anybody's buttons.  Just meant to insinuate that I don't think that women should act like whores in public and I don't think they should act like ladies in bed.  And I only believe they should be "in bed" with the man they adore.  Maybe that didn't come across?

[da gooch]

I can only speak for myself but I understood the Lady/whore image.

Some of the folks here are {apparently} a little sensitive to verbage that has more than one meaning or inference attached.

Some are politically sensitive, some are sensitive on gender issues, some [like me] are granite headed dolts that don't have the good sense to be offended without a direct assault.

All and all a pretty good bunch but watch out for those "Certain Persons".

Oh and by the by, welcome,

g