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Author Topic: Gentlemen's etiquette  (Read 37553 times)

iloilo

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2007, 10:56:13 pm »

I think I know what you may be trying to communicate.  

No one needs to be polite all the time, or anything all the time.

And I have found that behaving as an individual, healthy, aware female, (which is enough of a definition for me) in all situations, in each instance as is appropriate to the situation, and continuing to be my fully conscious, fully participating self, is delightfully perfect.

I was once asked my definition of life:

Life is Awareness Making Love With Existence.  Consider this on all levels.  Imagine it.  That covers it all pretty much, I think.

Healthy female, living.

Thank you for your posts, Tiffany, else I probably would have not ever felt the impulse to share the above with most who will now read it.
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OLD TIRED RN

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2007, 10:59:03 pm »

Tiffany, no problem seen by me, and I'm probably the most tame, dull, boring, church going, southern type here.


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When freedom fails, the best men rot in filthy jails, and they who cry APEASE APEASE are hanged by those who they tried to please.

Erin

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2007, 11:06:06 pm »

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« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 10:19:21 am by Erin »
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iloilo

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2007, 11:24:40 pm »

Yes, no real problem seen by me either, but I think it is enough to be a fully aware, fully present female.  No labels or groupings or institutional tags needed.  I am me.  Not pious, not offended, also not into stereotypes.  

And also into - strongly into - using words that hold their meaning.  Communication is difficult at best, as we are a young species with a young language.  Using more words, to produce exact meanings, assists greatly in the process of communication.

Could one not state that it is intelligent and fully human to be polite and respectful when appropriate?  

What's not right with simply saying a woman can be fully human and present, and respectful and logical, sexual and rational, emotional and sensual, and understanding that connotes and encompasses all that is healthy and good?

The dichotomy expressed slightly amuses me: we are not one or the other of the aspects of our humanness or womanhood, and our conduct and sense of who we are does not require compartmentalization due to situation: I am always sensual, always sexual, always thinking, always emotional, always logical.  I express different components of my humanity as is appropriate at the time, but I am always my whole, undivided, self.  Is this not true for all women?  For all humans?  I recognize that some do not know the appropriate times and places, but that is ignorance, not inhumanity, expressing itself.

Could one not state that it is delightful and overwhelmingly rewarding to be one's sensual, sexual self with the man you love?  Does the whore reference make it more titillating?  

The word whore opens no new aspects of sexual expression, so why is it used in a context referring to an expression of what I think of as the best of sharing existence with another person, the man I love?  

Am I incorrect that the connotation of whore is indiscriminate sexual activity, and adds nothing to the sexual or sensual connotations of being a sexual woman ?

Does not the word whore, used for either a woman or a man, connote indiscriminate sexual activity with a variety of partners?


Ah, we are far away from the original topic of this thread, yet, allow me to bring it full circle:  should I hear any man call any woman a whore, I would consider him not a gentleman.  I once called one man a whore.   But he was, actually.  So it was the appropriate word, as I understand the word whore, to use in this instance.

I find this discussion delightfully entertaining, by the way.
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iloilo

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2007, 11:29:43 pm »

Why?  Because it's based on a false dichotomy and false pretenses.  And it presents a very non-libertarian idea that the individual should be surrendered or suppressed except when in the bedroom; that there's only one way for men and women to behave.  Men shouldn't have to pretend they want a demure little lady when what they want is sex that rocks their world.  Women shouldn't have to pretend to be demure and inexperienced if they're anything but.  There's an entire range of behavior between those two ends of the spectrum, which I think is awesome as far as opening up options for people to find someone that fits them, and so far, I'm not seeing much room left for those infinite combinations.

To me, a big part of being polite is knowing your audience.  There are certain folks here with whom I wouldn't deign to have the conversations that occurred at the Granite County meetup, either because I don't know them well enough or because I think it would make them uncomfortable.  I'd present myself as a lady around those folks, with the good manners and polite conversation that keeps them at ease. 

But around folks like the CPC, I don't feel constricted by those...how shall I put this?... binding societal expectations about sex.  And neither do they.  And because we're all individuals, that's fine with me. 
Ah, thank you Erin, you stated far better than I the issue of the dichotomy and the issue of complete humanness as well as the possibilities contained in the broad and varied spectrum of humanity.  Thank you very much.   ^_^
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Tiffany

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2007, 12:14:52 am »

Why?  Because it's based on a false dichotomy and false pretenses.  And it presents a very non-libertarian idea that the individual should be surrendered or suppressed except when in the bedroom; that there's only one way for men and women to behave.

Fair enough and good point.  I still adhere to my own, personal rules, but I think you're right to say that the idea that EVERYBODY should follow these rules is simply not right.  I stand corrected.
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Erin

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2007, 12:47:04 am »

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« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 10:11:33 am by Erin »
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Tiffany

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2007, 05:53:31 pm »

Hank Rearden never held the pretense of being a gentleman.  Never.  Ever.  'Cisco on the other hand... But then, he was a gentleman.  He only pretended otherwise.
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George Potter

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2007, 10:52:45 pm »


If a woman offers a man sex for money can he safely call her a whore without losing his 'gentleman' status?

I mean, after he stands when she enters the room and all that razzle dazzle, of course.

Seriously, though, I expect the same basic behavior from any potential friend or otherwise, male or female:

Look me in the eye, don't lie. Don't front. Be yourself. In return I'll do the same. Most of these pretense games being discussed are based on archaic conformity rituals. I don't want to meet a public persona. I want to meet a person. Based on that person I'll decide if I want to be around them or not.

This is not to say that I am not polite. I'm a guy who will leave his own house to smoke if he has non-smoking guests.
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Dave Polaschek

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2007, 01:35:06 am »

A gentleman never insults someone unintentionally.

Fuckers.

edited to put it back the way I orginally wrote it, which was funnier
« Last Edit: July 14, 2007, 01:52:44 am by Dave Polaschek »
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merlin419

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2007, 12:00:09 pm »

A Ghost! The TCf boards are Haunted? Oh, my!    :ph34r:
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Tiffany

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2007, 12:24:26 pm »

Rearden was a gentleman, who was led to believe his values were wrong by......a woman.  Mind you Lillian was IMNSHO the evilest character in the book bar none, and his choice to take her was returned upon him tenfold by losing ******.
Modify: unreaveal spoilers to the "ghost" who is currently reading AS.

I have tried to convince myself that you're right here, but i don't know... I mean - I agree that Rearden was a man of values.  And I agree that he's one of the best heroes in the book.  And I agree that he was led astray by an evil woman.  But there's something about Francisco that screams "gentleman" that never came across to me with Rearden.  Not that it matters much.  I don't consider Wyatt a gentleman either, but he's one of the best heroes in the book as well.

I think it was well done on your part to bring this particular topic up (bringing Rearden, et al into the fray).  I do have certain societal stigmas about the way people dress, how they act, etc.  But I've always made exceptions for the Shrugged crew.  They're just such good damned PEOPLE, that I've always wanted to cheer them (even when they're being socially "wrong" according to my own upbringing).  So I guess, in a sense, that I agree with Erin.  There are certain situations where this stuff some of us were taught is necessary, and there are situations (or certain people you can surround yourself with) that it just isn't.

Awright, so maybe Rearden and Wyatt are gentlemen, and I just am not able to let go of the "southern" gentleman style enough to see it.  I can accept that.  And with that, I'm off to eat a Twinkie and contemplate re-reading Shrugged sometime soon.
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WAB

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2007, 12:06:23 am »

I absolutely believe that a man should practice these points of etiquette.  Along the same lines, there are points of etiquette a lady should always practice.  These were taught to me by my mother, and I hate finding out that other women were not ever taught how to be a "lady".

1. Never interrupt a conversation in progress.

2. Always be gracious, and smile when your husband or beau walks in the room.  People (especially other women) love drama, and love starting rumors.  All it takes is a misplaced frown when your spouse walks in the room and the whispers will start.

3. Even if you KNOW your husband is wrong, keep your tongue until you are in private.  Along the same lines, always champion your man.  If he is not holding his own, grab your longsword and defend him.  Period.

4. Always, always, always come when called.  No conversation is too important that you cannot be called away by the man you profess to love.  Excuse yourself graciously and attend to your man.  Never leave him waiting for more time than it takes to stop and pour him his favorite drink.

5. Make an attempt to be "lovely" for your husband daily.  If you're sick, that's a different story, but all other things withstanding, try to dab a bit of perfume on your neck and a bit of lip gloss on those luscious lips just before he walks in the door.

6. Don't air your dirty laundry in public.  Your husband has enough manners to help you put on your coat and open the door for you.  You need to show him the same respect in turn by not complaining to your friends or family about his snoring, irritating habits or tone of voice.  Those are not anybody else's business.  They didn't marry him, you did.  Cope.

7. Say please and thank you.  A proper woman does not forget her manners in anybodies presence.

8.  And last but not least, after doing all of these things during the day, bring the walls down in the bedroom at night.  The perfect woman, as everybody knows, is a lady in public and a whore in bed.

The moral is, of course, that women have rules that they "ought" to follow as well.  I notice more and more that people wear their blue jeans to the opera, argue in public, don't know how to set a table, and refuse to be kind and chivalrous to one another.  It's pathetic, and it makes me sad.  I wish more women were ladies and more men were gentlemen - but that's the way it is, I suppose.  I have a theory about this that has something to do with bad breeding and liberal politics, but I'll keep that to myself.

feralfae, Tiffany, and others, You have said it better than I could. I applaud you for your feelings. There are not many women like that today. You just cannot find one. For a woman to stand beside her man and support him is the most wonderful thing in the world. Be proud of yourselves for you are truly Ladies.

I am a Southerner and a male chauvanist pig!
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RV9

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2008, 11:13:35 am »

Quote
The real problem with such notions of chivalry is that they are based on the idea respect is not earned, but that women are entitled to it simply by virtue of being women. Everyone can see the emptiness of that, so the "respect" is inherently hypocritical and doesn't even feel like kindness. Only a very shallow woman would enjoy seeing strangers "stand at attention" for her. Having a friend get up to greet you is another matter entirely.

I disagree.  Respect isn't earned - it is (or should be) a given.  It can be unearned, though!
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lisa$

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Re: Gentlemen's etiquette
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2010, 01:12:25 pm »

Gentlemen think of the people they are with and responsible for.  If the girls(s) you are with are all decked out in the formal hoopskirts and such, open the door.  The hoops make it hard to reach the handles, the same for  in and out of chairs, her hands are busy with her stuff, and she can't grab the chair.  A lot of the old rules are gone since we all wear pants now and dress fairly similarly. (heck the Possibles Bag is coming back for men, renamed the Murse?).  It is taking turns in traffic when merging lanes (my lane car, their lane car, my lane car, thier lane car, my car, their lane car.......) you don't make yourself uncomfortable, but do what is necessary to excersie self restraint so you aren't running rampant over everyone else's comfort. You give up the seat on the bus to the wman with the children, or the person with the cane, because they are compromosed using their balance and you are not........  you do not shout across a room because that would step on everyone else's conversation........  You have your money for payment ready before you get to the window at the end of the line so you do not slow it down for everyone..........

Make way for the loaded person- they are clumsy with the load and you may end up in/ causing an injurious situation. You can at least get out of the way, if not share the load.......  I consider the standing,sitting and other such stuff as "spy warning" stuff from the "man/women roleplays" eras.  Certain subjects were not alked about between the sexes and the stand up served to interrupt/ notify to avoid taboo violation. (I still remember grandadd's reaction to the "barracks talk" in Topgun and other similar movies.  He simply could not watch them with any women present- other guys okay, but "Mixed company".......)

A lot of the gentleman attitude is "common decency" not necessarily common courtesy (Yes, No, Please, Thank you stuff). You show consideration, not mouth it.

 :thumbsup:
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