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[A Nonny Mouse]

Supreme Court Rules People Don't Have Constitutional Right to Refuse to Give Police Their Names
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON June 21, 2004 — The Supreme Court ruled Monday that people do not have a constitutional right to refuse to tell police their names.
The 5-4 decision frees the government to arrest and punish people who won't cooperate by revealing their identity.

Court: No Right to Keep Names From Police

Another reason to carry a really good fake ID?  



 

[Dull'Hawk]

Good reason to employ "the pink mist solution" if you ask me.

Kent

[Alton Speers]

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority, said that that it violated neither.

"Obtaining a suspect's name in the course of a Terry stop serves important government interests," Kennedy wrote.

{emphasis added}

There you have it. This is indeed what it is ALL about...government's interests. Hopefully the answer is crystal clear as to who is the master and who is the slave. Hopefully this will be another grinding motion of the foot stomping out that egregious lie that "we the people are the government" or it's cousin "...government of the people, by the people and for the people" which will hopefully perish from the earth.

Of course I would hasten to chide Mr. Kennedy over his statement (paraphrased) "...that in the overall scheme of things a name is so insignificant" Perhaps a more true statement would be that in the overall scheme of things government is just so insignificant.

I would be remiss if I failed to point out that in the face of this level of smug self-assurance in making such comments that their hubris beckons nemesis.

Alton

[mantispid]

You want to see some irony?  Check out the ad that I got when I visited the ABC News link provided above....

(Click the image for the larger (readable) version)



I just about fell out of my chair...  

"There's a future in the field of Criminal Justice!"... oh boy.
 

[Loxosceles_Reclusa]

 Yes. Since when did *government* interests outweigh the rights of the sovereign people? I guess since the people ceased to be sovereign.

 This is seriously bad. The next "shot heard 'round the world" may very well be fired over just something like this.

 Unfortunately, I don't have the first idea where or how to get a really good fake ID. I doubt I could afford it anyway.

 I saw a lot of this coming 34 years ago, when I was 13, but I couldn't do anything. In all that time, I've never been able to do anything to get free and secure. I knew *what* to do, but not how to get the money to do it. I think it's too late now.

 Lox

[unstructuredreality]

A Nonny Mouse wrote:
"Another reason to carry a really good fake ID?"

Perhaps, but make certain all of the ducks are in a row or you could be slapped with a "Patriotic" offense. Read everything you can that is not more than 2 years old on the subject and learn how they run your license.  Remember to study all of the sneaky ways the dmv creates the license.  For example, does what looks to be the letter "e", appear the same way throughout the license? Is the magstripe encoded correctly? What kind of barcode does the state use? Is it a PVC license or is it made with laminating a waterproof paper substitute like Teslin?. Perhaps, if you are a craftsperson, you can learn to make your own which is the best option because you can control the situation better.  Could be that it will be the free person's only option in time, but study up on it so the system doesn't catch you.  I guess I'll be going to jail because I will not give my id on demand.  Someone brought up Terry stops on walkers in another thread- wow, what total and complete control the authorities will have.  I wonder what the difference is now, between the US and a place like Canada or countries in Europe.  Taxes are higher, they take most of your guns, but Canada doesn't demand ID on walkers and weapons are being confiscated here and taxes will only go up up up for most normal people.  The freedoms we have lost in the last 10 years- and indeed longer-, have turned us into nothing but a big Canada in my opinion.  There is no difference any longer, the monster just appears in different places. I'm not surprised about the decision, it does make me mad that the most basic of our so called rights are being hijacked by worldly callings and not our own.  I bet most people will applaud the decision saying "well, people should show the officer Id, honest people have nothing to hide".    Remember though, You can still REMAIN SILENT and rot in a cell until they figure out your identity by other means.

"Fuck em all. Watch em fall"
Tupac Shakur,

Good Day

[Bobaloo]

I think I'm going to change my name to "F*ck U. Pig!" (The exclamation point is part of the name, you see, so it accounts for the shouting when I'm asked my name.)

On a more serious note, consider this: you can be arrested and taken to jail for refusing to give your name.  The jail is likely to be guarded by cops similar to those who were serving as reservists in Iraq.  Those guards made a practice out of torture, sexual abuse, rape, and sometimes murder.  So, when a cop asks you for your name, he's threatening to beat, rape, and kill you.  What do you do when someone threatens to beat, rape, and kill you?

Note: I edited this to be civil, but I wouldn't REALLY change my name to include an asterisk.

[Misfit]

As I recall from the video on this case, the police were demanding the guy's drivers license and he stated that he wasn't the driver so why did he need to produce his license. I'm not sure if he stated he didn't have it with him or just refused to produce it. It seems to me that they want more than you providing your name, they want a photo ID to prove you are who you say you are (my name alone doesn't distinguish which particular "Misfit" I am...there are lots of misfits out there   ). Ever since watching that video I try to leave my license at home (if I remember) when I'm not going to be driving...I do suspect that a lot more of us are going to be getting ourselves in trouble in the near future.    

[Elias Alias]

This is seriously bad. The next "shot heard 'round the world" may very well be fired over just something like this.

 I saw a lot of this coming 34 years ago, when I was 13, but I couldn't do anything. In all that time, I've never been able to do anything to get free and secure. I knew *what* to do, but not how to get the money to do it. I think it's too late now.

 Lox

Lox,

This is a bit precoccious of me, and I cannot give you the details which I'd love to share with all readers of this thread, but I wish to simply say that something very wonderful is in the works. I have been priveleged to participate in a very small way on a project which is nearing completion right now. It is a project which will be all over the media in this nation, and likely shall splash around the world as well. It is the most-huge blow against this illegal Empire I've seen to date, and by George, I think this one will work. The project is capable of shaking the very foundations of the Empire, especially its domestic totalitarianism under the looming police-state. And, (I hope I can say this much without saying "too much" here), this project shall sting excruciatingly, and MOST PERSONALLY, every one of the bastards who presently sit on the Supreme Court.

There is not a time set thusfar for the release of this project, although it seems to be about ready to spring within coming weeks. And I am certainly not at liberty to say anything about it, or about the people who have devised and created it. But it is so overpoweringly joyful to me, just knowing that it's about to happen, that I just had to let you people here know that something BIG for "our side" is in the wings. Please don't hate me for "teasing" without giving further details; I just thought the thread may enjoy knowing that we the people are not going to take this sort of judicial abuse lying down.

When this project does "pop" upon the national scene, I'm gonna be calling for many website operators to simultaneously post it. It will have a major media blitz as well. It will also be delivered to all US Congress critters, the White House, DoJ, CIA, and numerous other festering sore spots in American governance and facilitation. And, by George, *this one* can "work"!

Please be patient with me until I'm authorized to give full details. Thanks for understanding.

Keepin' the Faith, (and with good reason, now!)

Elias

[unstructuredreality]

He didn't understand why he needed to prove anything since he was simply parked on the side of the road within the shoulder space and I agree with him.  When I used to work in an affluent suburban community I would routinely sit and talk with some of my co workers for an hour or so in my car just for laughs.  I must have been questioned 10 times over the course of a year because apparently, to the cops, I was "suspicious".  That is all it takes, and it's not hard for a cop to find you suspicious.  Laughing, talking, smiling- that's all suspicious to a cop, and could now land a good guy or gal in jail to decide what path to take from there.  Couple that with a paranoid, brainwashed, "vigilant" citizen making random calls on you to the po po and you've got yourself a nice police state.

[David]

ID options,

Remember the ruling actually says you must give the police your name, not provide ID
You could just carry no Id what's so ever, thereby rendering the check moot, (but you may get arrested anyway) You could carry  a passport instead of a state ID, at first this seems counter intuitive but remember a passport does not include your address, and the application actually ask for less personal information than a DL, not to mention which as of now, loco cops don't have access to the state department data base.(yet)

Move to a state where the state constitution protects better than the federal (The Washington state Supreme Court ruled last Thursday that  that the police may only ask a passenger for there ID if they have probable cause to believe they have committed a crime) check around all states are different

[unstructuredreality]

Remember though, they might want to run a fingerprint check on you to force your identity out of you.  If you've never been arrested, you could be golden.  I prefer a Costco card to the Passport  If you don't think you will be questioned further, change your name to something more comfortable by means of the use method.

Here is a link I ran across showing just one of many sneaky tricks those DMV ID makers use to trip the average novelty id maker/user.

www.crew-sellers.com/font-trick-big.jpg  
I linked here to show an example.

Hope it shines a light somewhere

Good Day

[Misfit]

Geesh Elias,

You've got my curiosity peaked.....

But may I also give you a caveat....with the goons so paranoid anymore, you may want to bite your tongue or they might be sending the BATF looking for you, thinking....well, you know....  

[Pagan]

If the name is “so insignificant in the scheme of things” [Justice Kennedy], why do the cops need it so badly?
We are (still... so far) allowed to call ourselves anything we want. There is no magic in a name, and I don’t believe a new name even has to ‘legalized’ by the courts. I could call myself Nutmeg Nellie if I wished -- though I’m sure to give a false name would be suspicious in itself to those who, like cops, claim the right to suspect *anything* they don’t approve.

In one sense, the Supreme Court is right: there IS no Constitutional ‘right’ to keep our names from cops. There were no cops then -- and no identification. People could call themselves anything they wished, and it never occurred to the Founding Fathers to write such a law.
 
But then it obviously doesn't occur to the Supreme Court to read the Constitution!

[EconGeek]

This is great--

If you lie to the cops, that's obstruction of justice.

If you say nothing, that's cause to hold you indefinately and charge you with failure to disclose.

IF you tell the truth, you give up your 4th and 5th ammendment rights.

But hey, why would any of you care-- unless you're criminals!?!?!

Ayn Rand was right-- laws are made to create criminals-- to use people's guilt in order to manipulate them.   How many times have you seen a fellow "libertarian" say "Yeah the law was immoral, but he shouldn't have been breaking it in the first place?"   I think Hunter's story is a good example of this.

Maybe libertarians don't say that-- maybe I've just been hearing from too many republicans.... but the greatest tragedy in this country is respect for a legal system that has long ago stopped deserving it.