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Author Topic: FSP Picked the Wrong State!  (Read 34834 times)

Don Galt

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« on: October 01, 2003, 03:29:25 pm »



NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 09:59:01 pm by Don Galt »
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Claire

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2003, 03:52:00 pm »

Quote

PS - Yes I have a favorite state, but any of the westen states are objectively more viable than the eastern ones.  I'd decided that as much as I was concerned about the FSP, I'd move to the state they chose if it was a decent one.  Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Alaska or a Dakota would have gotten serious consideration from me.  Now one of them is where I'm going to move, FSP having made itself irrelevant.
Hi, Don.

Sure you're allowed to differ with the FSP leadership here. Other than Debra, who's not on the FSP board anymore, they aren't even around to object. We may differ, but goddess forbid anybody around here should censor or conduct a flame war. I like this group. It's as polite as it is smart.

As a practical matter, it's too late to worry whether the FSP chose the wrong state. It's done <shrug>. But for those FSPers who opted out of New Hampshire, or those freedom lovers who never joined because, like you, they were committed to the west ... some Montana folks have talked about a Montana-only version of the FSP.

You might be interested in exploring that.

I wouldn't like to see *any* project compete with the FSP at this point. I might disagree with FSP leadership on details, but the FSP is simply the best thought-out, best organized, most dynamically driven freedom effort within memory. And it would be just like us libertarians to bust it apart before it has a real chance to succeed -- in one of our all-too-typical "purer than thou" philosophical snits. (And believe me, I'm not aiming that accusation at you. *I've* done exactly that myself, and so have a heck of a lot of the people I know.) If we insist on total philosophical "purity," then there wouldn't be a more "pure" FSP. Only one more broken libertarian idealist scheme.

I think this is truly the time when we have to all hang together or all hang separately. If you're right and NH is the wrong place and/or a huge percentage of FSP members are really statists (which isn't something I've perceived -- although certainly a lot of FSPers are more statist than most folks on this forum), then it will fail in its mission. In the meantime, I see a thousand reasons to give it a chance -- and lend my own radicalism to balance out (or hopefully even educate) some of the less hardcore members.

BUT if the FSP fails. Or if there are 40,000 libertarians (or even pretty-close-to-libertarians) out there ... I sure know people in both the U.S. and Canada who'd be ready to undertake a Montana project when the time comes.

Claire
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 03:57:09 pm by Claire »
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When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


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amy

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2003, 03:55:50 pm »

I don't think the fsp could free a state no matter what state was chosen. I think our nation is too far gone for that. What it might be able to do, is to slow down the slide down the slippery slope in the chosen state. Giving more time to inform people of what is going on and giving those that know what is going on more time to prepare. Also to get liberty loves together so they can meet up and become friends and support each other. When/if the shtf it will be beneficial to have others nearby to turn to/join with. And with NH  being a small state, all the freedom lovers will be in reasonable proximity to one an other. All the better to meet and form relationships. If one lives in the center of the state, one will be less than 2 hours from anywhere else in the state.  
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Don Galt

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2003, 05:31:01 pm »



NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 10:05:55 pm by Don Galt »
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Claire

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2003, 06:24:02 pm »

I received this in a message today:

Quote
To get involved with the Western Free State Project go to Yahoo Groups
and join, or contact Mykl Meagher at myklfsp@yahoo.com. Contact me
at birvin@allidaho.com. This project's success and direction will depend on
the commitment and energy of members.

Ben Irvin, who sent it, says the WFSP has no aim to compete with the FSP and is only seeking to recruit NH opt-outs and others who are interested only in the west. Although, clearly, it's competitive by its very nature.

I would LOVE to see three states of the free ... or four .... or 50, if there are that many interested freedom lovers. But is there even remotely enough support -- or are these other projects just going to fragment each other's membership, resulting in no free state project at all? Myself, I'm sticking with the FSP unless/until I see some pretty hard evidence that they aren't sincerely working to create a free state.

Don, you make some good points. If the FSP truly were a group of statists who were going to move to the chosen state and vote for business as usual (why would they even move, then?), or if they were moving in hopes of imposing deadly moralitic legisltion (worse), I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. I definitely see some evidence of "conservative libertarianism" in the FSP, no surprise. And I see a lot of evidence of sincere love of freedom to balance it. But then, you and I are obviously observing the FSP from different perspectives.

I'm curious. Did Jason actually censor you, in the sense of preventing you from posting messages advocating gun ownership for FSP members?

Claire
« Last Edit: October 01, 2003, 06:52:52 pm by Claire »
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Hunter

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2003, 08:40:10 pm »

Don

You are operating on a LOT of false assumptions. Gun culture? Believe me, NH has a thriving one. I'll wager it has more gun stores and ranges per capita than about any state in the union. And people even down here in southern NH shoot ALL the time. You can't step outside at my house and listen for more than an hour or so most days without hearing a shot off in the distance somewhere.

A plan? The people of NH have had a plan for many years: "Live Free or Die". The people HERE who believe in freedom have been fighting the good fight their whole lives - and for the most part WINNING. Why do you think so many people up here were so excited about the prospect of the FSP choosing New Hampshire? I won't bother going over the big political advantages offered by the existing NH system; the voting package did that quite well. Granite staters are no strangers to telling the feds to go efff themselves, and 20,000 porcupines moving in are only going to enhance that tendency.

Now, I am not going to tell you not to go off and join an alternate group. That would be the pot calling the kettle black, because I have been working myself on getting moved west for many years. But that is strictly for personal reasons, having nothing to do with the freedom movement. Having lived here now for 5 or 6 years, and also having lived in a couple of different states out west, I can attest that for the purposes FSP was looking for there IS no better state available. That may not match your (or my) personal plans, but the selection of NH as the Free State pretty much validates the opinion that I had publicly expressed before. (see "Is the Free State New Hampshire?") I fully expect this decision to catalyse similar and ultimately successful efforts in some of the western states, but that does not detract from what people up HERE are trying to do.  
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Herself

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2003, 09:33:59 pm »

I have to admit to feeling kind of let down by the choice.  I was really expecting Wyoming, which was gonna be a big adjustment for this gal from one the flyover states that begin and end with a vowel-sound but it would've been The West, Land of Broad Horizons!  Out where the stars shine!  (Okay, the Yellowstone Volcano Deluxe is a bit offputting but the chance to take up mountain climbing again makes up for the long-odds Lake Of Fire ride).

     Now I have to ponder a quaint Eastern State.  While the climate won't be any worse and the scenery's not bad, it's just so, so "East."  Smack next to the People's Republic of Vermont an' the People's Republic of Canada!  Scary stuff.  (I needta go look at the borders more closely -- natural features, or just lines on the map?  It matters!)

     So I don't know yet.  I'll be checking for jobs there for sure (my present boss being an oleogenous mustilid Bushnik who shows no signs of leaving) but it'll take more of a job to lure me East than it would have West.

     It is wildly unlikely there was any sort of "fix" in.  Westerly opinions were simply too divided, and NH too appealing a prospect.

     I've never found myself censored in the FSP forums, either, even when suggesting to Jason he's got a stripe of Straussian elitism (maybe he does, maybe not, it was an Econ. kind of argument and his slant was pure Poly. Sci.).  I have self-censored my opinions on the Long-Established Tradition in U. S. political criticism, but I do that generally in print and online anyhow, as otherwise it tends to make folks overly fretful.

     So I don't agree with suggestions the FSP is crypto-statist or the state selection process "rigged."  Wrong?  Time will tell, and history, my baseball-loving partner reminds me, speaks more favorably of those who strike out swinging than those who strike out looking.

     --Herself
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Don Galt

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2003, 05:02:34 am »



NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 10:05:36 pm by Don Galt »
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Don Galt

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2003, 05:09:54 am »



NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 10:02:39 pm by Don Galt »
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Hunter

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2003, 05:38:30 am »

According to both a couple of board members I talked to AND completely independently a cypherpunk friend of mine who did pretty extensive analysis of the data available on FSP members, by far the largest identifiable block of Porcupines were those living in California. Apparently CA residents were disproportionately inclined to be Porcupines. My friend commented that they composed a higher fraction of the FSP membership than californians do the population. Which considering that CA is the most populous state in the union is saying quite a bit. WIthout digging up the email where this person talked about it I can't confirm the number, but I think it was pushing 20%.

That, sir, is an objective fact, which I should say pretty thoroughly invalidates your thesis. I can't speak to your experiences on the FSP forums, because I never spent much time there. I frankly could care less what some git on a power trip did to you there. The people that matter in the end are the ones who move, and having met a good round hundred or so of them over the past couple of years, I am pretty confident they will do just fine if the people I know are at all representative. Good luck in Alaska.
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Jack Harrison

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2003, 05:55:35 am »

Hmmm...

I think a more appropriate name for the project would have been "The Freer State Project". It would more closely resemble the stated goals, and would probably lead to less conflict from those of us (please include me) would prefer freedom in its more pure sense - anarchocapitalist or whatever you wish to call your version. As it stands, what I hope to get out of the project will be different from what others seek. While I WANT to just simply be left alone, I recognize friends in the FSP. I also recognize that being left alone is NOT one of the goals of the FSP. I recognize that this group of folks are the only ones well enough organized, well enough along, and who have put together a well enough executed plan to move us along closer to real freedom than anyone else I've encountered.

I live in a terribly controlling, overburdening state. The FSP has helped me narrow down a list of states where I'll be more free simply by uprooting and moving there. That 20,000 folks, activists yet, who are willing to uproot themselves for an idea similar to mine will also be there, gives me an almost CERTAIN sense of security that freedom, the FSPs version of freedom, will be enhanced further. While FSP's "Freer State" may not be my ideal version, I surely don't want to cut off my nose to spite my face.

It would be so like a group of Libertarians to divide themselves again, right to the point of being individuals alone in the wasteland of tyranny, that they may as well be lone gunmen throwing rocks at their oppressors in tanks. I dearly hope that is not to be.

The state has been chosen - I wish we would all be happy - even if its not recognized as the perfect state. We all now know more than we did before - say hello to your "freer" neighbors. Hi neighbor!  
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Hunter

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2003, 08:29:12 am »

Jack, if there is one vision you will find honored in New Hampshire, it is the wish to be left alone. C'mon down. You are displaying the right attitude. And I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised at just how ancap a lot of the Porcupines are. The ones I chewed the fat around the campfire up in Lancaster sure as hell qualified. Freedom is kinda like a sewer, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. (OK, so I stole the line from Tom Lehrer, so what?)  :P  
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Stan

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2003, 12:56:42 pm »

Hi all,

Part of me was secretly hoping (or a better word, yearning) for Idaho, Montana or Alaska.  Even though, I voted NH #1 because that's where I figure we have the best chance to succeed.

I'm afraid of what will happen if the project splinters at this point.  Of course there is nothing I can do to stop it.  So I honestly wish the free western state project success if they proceed with their endeavor.  Who knows?  Maybe if our eastern efforts don't bear fruit I'll join them one day!

But my salute goes to you glass eaters who ultimately say "My culture is not Western or Eastern, Yankee or Southerner, but Freedom!".  
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Claire

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2003, 01:06:06 pm »

Quote
I'm afraid of what will happen if the project splinters at this point.  

But my salute goes to you glass eaters who ultimately say "My culture is not Western or Eastern, Yankee or Southerner, but Freedom!".
Bless you, Stan. Even with my blatant western biases, I agree with you on this.

It's all well and good to criticize the FSP, but as Hunter said, at least the porcupines are *doing something* for freedom -- and in an organized, intelligent way.

Anybody can stand on the sidelines and carp (and most libertarians do). Anybody can go off in a snit when things don't go exactly their way (and that's a libertarian way of life). It has taken a skill and effort most of us lack for the FSP to get this far. Let's don't eff it up now.
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Hunter

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2003, 02:38:13 pm »

My sentiments zegactly, Claire and Stan. You said it a lot betterer.
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