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Author Topic: FSP Picked the Wrong State!  (Read 34310 times)

Don Galt

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2003, 03:17:29 pm »



NOTE TO ANY WHO THINK THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM
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I've  been threatened with expulsion for disagreeing with one of the moderators friends.  Thus, since there are people here who you cannot disagree with (Apparently, a major chunk of the participants) this is not effectively a discussion forum.

I will not participate in a forum where my posts are modified to change thier meaning, and where I am threatened with expulsion if I dare to disagree.

Thus I am removing my participation, and I caution you to be wary of yours.

Good Day--

The man who lives for no other.
 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 10:02:51 pm by Don Galt »
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jack

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2003, 05:23:08 pm »

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Now I'm attacked as someone who stands on the sidelines and carps?
Don, chill down, nobody's attacking you...
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I've pointed out glaring problems, pointed out a lack of integrity with the leadership.   And these are ignored.
For a good reason. We're individualists first. Jason is not a leadership, he's just an organizer. His integrity or lack thereof has no bearing on the success of the project.
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And thus, we have the LP in ruins, and the FSP an organization with lots of momentum and a direction, but no plan for when they get there.
Again, for a good reason... ;) Plan is good for colectivists, we are indyvidualists and everyone has his own plan :) How would you go about getting a plan everybody would agree with? Would you agree to any plan but yours? The way it works now I can follow my plan and everybody else will follow his. Hopefully each plan will work towards more freedom.
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He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

amy

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2003, 07:34:15 pm »

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Apparently CA residents were disproportionately inclined to be Porcupines. My friend commented that they composed a higher fraction of the FSP membership than californians do the population.
On a state by state comparison of fsp members per 1000 residents, nh had the highest at .1208. CA came in at .0150, it was on the low end. One can see the numbers for all the states here.

http://www.freestateproject.org/member_map...ate_numbers.htm
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Claire

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2003, 11:09:35 am »

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Now I'm attacked as someone who stands on the sidelines and carps?
Don, chill down, nobody's attacking you...
 
Totally. To disagree is not automatically to attack.

And merely because some of us want to stick with the FSP does not mean we're totally disregarding your (or anybody else's) claims about problems within the organization. Some may perceive they need to investigate those claims for themselves. Some may find the problems less fundamental or less important than they seem to you. Some, using their own experience and judgments, may consider your opinions, but still think you're wrong in your assessments.

Not one person that I know of has said that every libertarian, or any libertarian, should join or support the FSP. Many people on these boards are not porcupines, and nobody's ragging them about it.

Finally, like Jack, I'm perfectly thrilled that there's no one-size-fits-all plan for all porcupines to follow when they arrive in New Hampshire. If 20,000 politically aware individualists are willing to uproot and move to a new state with lilberty as their sole criterion, then we can bet that each of them will work in their own way to fulfill that dream. And if there are some slackers ... well, there always are. And unlike collectivists, thank heaven we don't hold the illusion we can "make" everybody do what we think is good for them.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2003, 11:12:24 am by Claire »
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Don Galt

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2003, 06:12:11 am »

Clearly I'm wasting my time.

I don't mind disagreement, but I have a real problem with dishonesty.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2003, 06:13:29 am by Don Galt »
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Misfit

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2003, 01:46:57 pm »

I didn't realize Claire and others of you were actually signed up with FSP. I just thought you were discussing it and supporting it...

I'm kind of surprised that any westerner would sign up to go to a New England state (other than Maine, perhaps). I took my first and only trip through the New England states earlier this year and swore that I would never go to that part of the country again.

But to each their own, I understand they had to pick a state with a low population...but it also is a tiny state, hence the low population... I came West for freedom...going East doesn't add up for me...they are worse off there than here...population density, cost of living, pace of life and all the rules and regulations (you probably need a permit to sneeze there)...

I'll stay right here, by myself if I have to...I would look at a western FSPs but I'd have to fall in love with that state more than this one...and that's not likely...I have to love the land I defend. A sense of place is important to me.

Misfit

 

enemyofthestate

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2003, 12:05:33 am »

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According to both a couple of board members I talked to AND completely independently a cypherpunk friend of mine who did pretty extensive analysis of the data available on FSP members, by far the largest identifiable block of Porcupines were those living in California. Apparently CA residents were disproportionately inclined to be Porcupines. My friend commented that they composed a higher fraction of the FSP membership than californians do the population. Which considering that CA is the most populous state in the union is saying quite a bit. WIthout digging up the email where this person talked about it I can't confirm the number, but I think it was pushing 20%.

That, sir, is an objective fact, which I should say pretty thoroughly invalidates your thesis. I can't speak to your experiences on the FSP forums, because I never spent much time there. I frankly could care less what some git on a power trip did to you there. The people that matter in the end are the ones who move, and having met a good round hundred or so of them over the past couple of years, I am pretty confident they will do just fine if the people I know are at all representative. Good luck in Alaska.
According to http://www.freestateproject.org/member_map...tes_03nov03.htm, there are 506 Californians in the FSP out of 5055 members.  That would be more OTO 10% than 20%.

The 2000 census put Caifornia's population at  33,051,894 in a country with 273,643,273 persons making California about 12% of the total.

I guess I don't see the significance in that.
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enemyofthestate

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2003, 12:09:26 am »

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Jack, if there is one vision you will find honored in New Hampshire, it is the wish to be left alone. C'mon down. You are displaying the right attitude. And I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised at just how ancap a lot of the Porcupines are. The ones I chewed the fat around the campfire up in Lancaster sure as hell qualified. Freedom is kinda like a sewer, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. (OK, so I stole the line from Tom Lehrer, so what?)  :P
Wasn't Carl Drega from New Hampshire?  From what I've read, he wasn't exactly left alone.
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Mystical man values human life.  Rational man values the ability to value human life.
--Stephen Carville

Atheist   n.   A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others
-- Chaz Bufe, The American Heretics Dictionary

Hunter

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2003, 01:29:35 am »

I know people who knew him. Pretty sad case. No, he wasn't left alone, but he also had problems of his own. No excuses, from everything I have heard and read one can certainly see why he cracked. Small town politics can be just as vicious as larger scales. I thought Vin covered the situation pretty well in his book.
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Don Galt

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FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2003, 06:12:19 pm »


The activist members of the FSP may well be ancap, and probably are libertarians.

The problem is that most of the rest are socialists who think they are libertarians.

Just wait-- if this happens, then the californains will be trying to get california style zoning in NH, and california style socialism in NH.

Not all libertarians are the same, and actually, many people who call themselves libertarian aren't really-- they just agree with a couple issues the libertarians agree with.

To be a libertarian, you have to actually be able to come up with the libertarian answer to an issue you don't know the libertarian position on in advance.  IOW you have to have the libertarian philosophy.

Too many members-- the majority in my experience-- of the FSP do not have a philosophical base for their libertarianism.  They are merely socialists who don't think the republicans are serious enough aobut taxes, or the democrats are serious enough about drugs.

 
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lonewolf

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I agree, they picked the wrong state
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2005, 10:49:22 pm »

When they picked NH, I opted out of the project, and told them I was no longer interested in relocation.

Wyoming was definately the way to go
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2005, 03:15:27 am »

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Wyoming was definately the way to go

In your best personal opinion.......... and yeah.....I do have a very dear friend moving to Wyoming....but it's still based on an opinion.....and all opinions are valid to the person giving them*grin*
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russellkanning

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Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2005, 08:47:49 pm »

NH is very nice. I am a westerner who choose to move wherever we voted. I miss the big mountains, but now I have trees. If you are ready to take on the government, why don't you join us.
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Lloyd

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Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2005, 11:17:00 am »


The activist members of the FSP may well be ancap, and probably are libertarians.

The problem is that most of the rest are socialists who think they are libertarians.

Just wait-- if this happens, then the californains will be trying to get california style zoning in NH, and california style socialism in NH.

Not all libertarians are the same, and actually, many people who call themselves libertarian aren't really-- they just agree with a couple issues the libertarians agree with.

To be a libertarian, you have to actually be able to come up with the libertarian answer to an issue you don't know the libertarian position on in advance.  IOW you have to have the libertarian philosophy.

Too many members-- the majority in my experience-- of the FSP do not have a philosophical base for their libertarianism.  They are merely socialists who don't think the republicans are serious enough aobut taxes, or the democrats are serious enough about drugs.

 

Don,  not all of the members of the FSP are libertarians, but, I have met several hundred of them and have not met one expressing socialist ideas.
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onlyfittin

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Re: FSP Picked the Wrong State!
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2006, 12:05:59 pm »

  Just as a generalization, I’ve never seen labeling and judging change hearts and minds.  Some of us are limited in our ability to relocate (health, finances and other personal issues).  We try and fight the good fight where we are with the resources available to us.  There is no wrong state when you work for freedom.  There may be less power in a person’s efforts when there is a smaller concentration of believers BUT who would condemn their commitment?  Grow where you are planted.  Do what you can to live the dream.  Support in any way possible those who can make a bigger investment and relocate.  Bless all those who work for a “free state” anywhere.
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