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Author Topic: Fully Informed Jurors!  (Read 70152 times)

iloilo

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #135 on: December 15, 2010, 10:00:33 pm »

Ignore some of what Gooch said:
"Wait until the actual jury vote to mention having 'read in a US Supreme Court decision' [Scroogle up Justice Brandeis] that juries are supposed to judge both the facts AND the law.  Then hang the jury IF the law is unconstitutional or is being 'misapplied'."

If you mention during jury deliberations that you have read the Constitution or if you mention nullification, the jury foreman may report you to the judge; you could be replaced with an alternate; you could be charged with both jury tampering and felony perjury for taking the oath and then breaking it.  Probably, you would win eventually on both counts—on appeal, but only after government ring wraiths have put you through the wringer.  (sorry, could not resist  :laugh:)   Meanwhile, you might languish in a cell run by the government Orcs.

Either ask a question during jury selection: ask the judge since when jurors were jurors supposed to check their mind and conscience at the door?  Or ask when jurors lost the right to judge both he law and the facts?  ?  You will at least contaminate the entire jury pool. 
 or
Get on the jury and use any persuasion other than an appeal to law or nullification, or else just vote not guilty if it is a victimless crime, and don't give any reason for your verdict other than that you just can't convict in your heart of hearts.

As Gooch's brother said, justice and truth are nowhere to be found in the system: don't risk trying to persuade anyone else.  It would probably get you kicked off the jury, and maybe worse.

Now then, after you are through with jury duty, start handing out FIJA literature and talking to people.  And work freedom every other way you can, as well.
Peace,
ff
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da gooch

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #136 on: December 15, 2010, 11:17:47 pm »

Quote
Either ask a question during jury selection: ask the judge since when were jurors supposed to check their mind and conscience at the door?  Or ask when jurors lost the right to judge both the law and the facts?  ?  You will at least contaminate the entire jury pool. 

Of Course ... Feral Fae is entirely correct.
Mentioning any of this will get you thrown off of the jury. [and possibly prosecuted as she says.]
Then you will not have a chance to actually convict the Law of its unconstitutionality [all victimless 'crimes'] and or Free a wrongfully prosecuted individual.

I am one of those that rams his head against the walls of ignorance and damn the torpedoes.
I have more than once gone to the cells rather than surrender my convictions.
I'm told that it may have something to do with being born in the spring. [March 31st]   :ph34r:   

:rolleyes:
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MeyerLemon

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2012, 12:07:25 am »

This is really interesting. I'm an attorney in CA, and I practice only in civil court - usually commercial litigation/breach of contract. Rarely do we make it to a jury trial - and if we do, the question is one of breach of contract.

I don't really see anything on the FIJA website on civil trials, and I've love to read more. We rarely elect a jury trial, because...well...I'm in Los Angeles County. I've served on a jury here, I wouldn't want to subject my clients to that unless absolutely necessary. Horrible to say, I know, but...I've been in that jury room. It isn't pretty.

For what it's worth, mentioning FIJA wouldn't get you thrown off MY jury. I use my challenges for people that really seem biased against logic. Then again, I don't take cases where I don't think the client is both legally correct AND ethically correct!
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2012, 06:46:34 am »

I don't really see anything on the FIJA website on civil trials, and I've love to read more.

I'm not aware of any significant difference in the actual jury, but I don't know a whole lot. :) The standard of evidence - "beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal cases compared to "preponderance of the evidence" in civil matters - is the only difference I know. I'll ask.

Quote
We rarely elect a jury trial, because...well...I'm in Los Angeles County. I've served on a jury here, I wouldn't want to subject my clients to that unless absolutely necessary. Horrible to say, I know, but...I've been in that jury room. It isn't pretty.

I was a prospective juror in San Bernardino county a few times. LA is most likely worse. I would love to have been on a jury, but I'm not a good enough actor to pass as a mindless idiot. :(  And besides, I refused to answer their personal questions... got me tossed out fast.

Quote
For what it's worth, mentioning FIJA wouldn't get you thrown off MY jury. I use my challenges for people that really seem biased against logic. Then again, I don't take cases where I don't think the client is both legally correct AND ethically correct!

Unfortunately, the other attorney also has challenges. They LIKE people who are biased against logic. I sure don't envy your job there. Got to be nasty sometimes dealing with all that slime...

Anyway, will post what I discover.
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The desire/compulsion to control the lives and property of others is the ROOT of all evil.

sovereignbastard

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #139 on: March 31, 2015, 12:58:35 pm »

        I was recently doing some research on jury's and it seems to me that their is quite a difference between a jury trial and a trial by jury. I, like most people, just assumed that they are one in the same, but with my understanding of the bowel creature known as government continues to grow, it seems clear to me that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors going on everywhere. In a trial by jury, the jury is in charge of deciding the guilt, innocence, and even legality of the law itself, hence jury nullification. The judge himself is only to be a facilitator or ref for the proceedings.
        In a jury trial, the judge tells the jury what they can and cant do. The judge tells them what evidence they can hear and what is admissible. The judge can direct the jury to ignore many facets of the law, and even threaten jurors with contempt for non-compliance. My question is... How is this not jury tampering ?

On the subject of courts, here is an interesting conversation. What is the real deal with the BAR association ? Where in the constitution does it talk about lawyers or rather to the point attorneys ? My understanding is that a lawyer is an advocate for you where an attorney who has passed the BAR, their true ability is to be able to transfer your "prorperty" from you across the BAR and to the judge "state." When a student has passed the bar, they are now allowed to pass the threshold and transfer your goodies to the state ? This also reminds me of the whole TONA issue. The titles of nobility amendment to the constitution that expressly prohibited royalty and lawyers and the like from holding office. My research has lead me to believe that TONA was passed and is a legal amendment to the constitution. The true and original 13th amendment.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #140 on: March 31, 2015, 01:16:30 pm »

My research has led me to the understanding that it is all a hoax, a terrible fraud from the beginning. "justice," and all that attaches to government control over our lives and property is, more or less, at the whim of those in charge, at whatever level you encounter them.

Posted for educational purposes only, fair use:

Hologram of Liberty  http://javelinpress.com/hologram_of_liberty.html
The Constitution's Shocking Alliance with Big Government
$27.00
ABOUT HOLOGRAM OF LIBERTY

Civic Belief #1: The Congress was given few specific powers. All else was left to the States and to the people under the 10th Amendment. Ample checks and balances protect the Republic from federal tyranny.

Civic Belief #2: The Federal Government has become so powerful only because despotic officials have overstepped their strict, constitutional bounds.

If #1 is true, then how did #2 happen?

    "The Constitution has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it". Lysander Spooner, No Treason (1870)

Think about that. By either the Constitution's purposeful design or by its unintentional weakness, we suffer under a federal colossus which takes a third of our lives and regulates everything from alfalfa to xylophones. This is Freedom? So, why aren't Americans free? Perhaps we weren't really meant to be!

    hol o gram (hl' e gram) n. [< Gr. holos, whole + gramma, writing]
    2. a document falsely representing itself as an accurate metaphor

    lib er ty (lib'er tee) n. [< L. liber, free] 1. freedom from slavery

Hologram of Liberty The Constitution's Shocking Alliance With Big Government is a cold splash of water on our civic mythology. Hologram's main contention is that the 1787 Convention, its Constitution and Federal Government was the most brilliant and subtle coup d'etat in political history. While the majority of Americans then were Jeffersonian in nature, a few Hamiltonian Federalists eradicated our Swiss-style Confederation and replaced it with a latent leviathan. The Federal Government was given several escape keys to the putative handcuffing by the Constitution. Using the "necessary and proper" and "general welfare" clauses in conjunction with congressional powers under treaty, interstate commerce, and emergency, the "Founding Lawyers" of 1787 purposely designed a constitutional infrastructure guaranteed to facilitate a future federal colossus. While such a massive government was impossible to erect in the freedom-conscious 1780's, the "virus" of tyranny was cunningly hidden within the Constitution to foment the eventual federal behemoth we are burdened with today. The feds take in a third of economic activity and regulate everything from the price of corn to the size of chimneys and it's all constitutional!" Oh, it's only 'constitutional' because autocratic Supreme Court Justices say it is!," some would reply.

Yes, but the Framers allowed the Supreme Court, without any check or balance, to approve of federal encroachment on the States and on the people. There is no constitutional avenue for overturning a despotic Supreme Court ruling and it was designed that way. The feds are allowed to "monitor" themselves, like students grading their own tests. Had the Framers wanted to really check the Supreme Court, they'd have at least created an appellate court (activated by petition) staffed by justices from the States. Had the Framers wanted to really hamstring Congress and the President, they would have given the people a "no-confidence" device to remove traitorous officials in midterm. Had they wanted to, the Framers could have (as did the Swiss) easily confined the Federal Government but they didn't want to. In their opinion, a strong central government independent of real popular approval was best for America. The Framers left the federal fleas in control of their own flea powder, and that's why we have such an unchallengeable government today.

Most conservatives and libertarians believe that the Constitution and its Framers were Jeffersonian and laissez-faire. They were not, and they never claimed to be. This Jeffersonian gloss is echoic of two things: 1) What the Constitution was sold as to the people through The Federalist, and 2) How the Constitution, according to Jefferson, should have been interpreted under strict constructionism. Add the Red, White, and Blue, July 4th, the Founding Fathers and George Washington and you've got a civic religion with its unique parchment worship. There are but three ways to view anything, including the Constitution:

    The way you see it.
    The way you would like it to be.
    The way it really is.

Friends of freedom have gazed dreamily at the Constitution for two centuries, fusing #1 with #2 to create a false #3. We need to snap out of our parchment worship and coldly study the predicament of Liberty--before it's too late. Liberty-loving folks need to quickly understand that freedom is not well-served by the current Constitution. Neither is tyranny. It is Royce's firm opinion that the Constitution will be radically amended, if not abolished altogether, by "us" or "them" within 10 years. Royce proves that the States and the people were politically "checkmated" at ratification, and discusses his three peaceful solutions prior the imminent insurrection now brewing. The goal of Hologram of Liberty is to spark an active synthesis of Libertarians, Patriots, and Conservatives to prevent a 21st century Dark Age in America.

There hasn't been an innovative theory about the Constitution in 84 years, since Charles Beard's An Economic Interpretation. We are long overdue for a paradigm shift to political reality. It's time to complete the story with Hologram of Liberty, the Jeffersonian/anti-federalist epilogue. Our window of opportunity for reestablishing freedom is quickly running out and we simply don't have time for comforting old fantasies. Hologram of Liberty is the freshest research on the Constitution since 1913.
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I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

The desire/compulsion to control the lives and property of others is the ROOT of all evil.

sovereignbastard

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #141 on: March 31, 2015, 02:24:49 pm »

That was wonderful, I will check this hologram of liberty ! Speaking of Mr Spooner, I have recently read his constitution of no authority number 6, and was so moved by it that i bought several more copies for a few folks I know who have been interested in a better understanding of the world in which they reside. I had a bit of a breakthrough the other night. I was thinking about what Lysander said about voting being an act of self defense. This is something that I agree with very much. I got to thinking it through a little more, and came to the conclusion that not only CAN it be an act of self defense, but in many ways it is nothing more than a criminal enterprise. I ask people from time to time if they thought is was ok to go rob a neighbor at gunpoint for their property ? The response was always no. Then I asked if it would be ok if they hired someone to do the robbery instead. The answer was still no. Then I would ask if it would be ok to elect someone, to hire someone, to rob someone of their property ? That question usually earns a big roll of the eyes followed with a, of course not, that's preposterous ! That's when I ask, how is that any different than the entire system that we have in place now ? That is usually met with less than flattering looks and scoffs. It is amazing how we can see the obvious "injustice" over on this side, but our indoctrination is so deep, that we fail to identify the exact same thing from "our" government. I say that voting is self defense and criminal, especially when it is forced upon you. I am all for a group of people getting together and consenting to some type of voting doo-hickey, but I refuse to accept that a few people that vote over here or over there, somehow contracts me into their shennanigans. 
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #142 on: March 31, 2015, 03:21:57 pm »

Yes indeed. That blind spot is due to the fact that people have been indoctrinated for eons to believe that "government" and/or "the will of the people" - "majority rules" because there is some kind of legitimate "authority" to do that. The same reason people become slaves to religious and cult leaders of all kinds... they actually think leadership or the appearance of it conveys some sort of obligation on them even when they don't agree to it, or suffer from it. People obviously have the innate authority to choose any sort of life or leaders they wish, but few will accept the idea that they can't legitimately choose for anyone else.
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I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

The desire/compulsion to control the lives and property of others is the ROOT of all evil.

sovereignbastard

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Re: Fully Informed Jurors!
« Reply #143 on: March 31, 2015, 03:39:41 pm »

Yes indeed. That blind spot is due to the fact that people have been indoctrinated for eons to believe that "government" and/or "the will of the people" - "majority rules" because there is some kind of legitimate "authority" to do that.

A snippet from the errant sovereign's handbook by Augustus Blackstone
Chapter 4, page 25

"We are also vested with the power to choose to become part of and participate in majority rule. The catch is we first have to give up the immunity, the protective barrier. You cannot rationally expect to be a part of the majority rule and still retain all the individual protections against a majority rule. That just doesn't work. In the course of such a transition from individual sovereign elector to qualified majority rule elector, there are necessarily two principal items of sovereignty which must transfer. Neither, being intangabiles, can be destroyed. The first is the power to choose at will and the second is immunity."
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