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Author Topic: Libertarians should stop insulting cops  (Read 24231 times)

Bedwere

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2008, 06:35:55 am »

People on cell phones driving endanger my life MANY times more than any so called drunk drivers. I ride a motorcycle and I see how you cagers being stupid endanger my life.

Again you make an assumption... Please don't group me willy-nilly. I happen to be partial to the Bicycle as my main method of transportation.

But, Yes, Cell-phone use is at least as impairing as being drunk, if not more. Anything, in fact, which takes attention away from the road and the other vehicles on it increases your chances of intersecting with one of them.

It really is very simple. You kill or cause damage to someone or their property, you are liable to full restitution, even if you have to live in the streets with no clothes.
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Myrkul

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2008, 11:34:41 am »

It really is very simple. You kill or cause damage to someone or their property, you are liable to full restitution, even if you have to live in the streets with no clothes.

I agree... But what does that have to do with what I said?
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein
"If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl." -H. L. Menken

Lenny

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2008, 11:39:33 am »

It really is very simple. You kill or cause damage to someone or their property, you are liable to full restitution, even if you have to live in the streets with no clothes.

I agree... But what does that have to do with what I said?

He means that banning beer, cell-phones, sex while driving, etc., misses the point. All things being equal, it's up to the driver to make his own decisions. If his decisions result in harm, he will bear full responsibility with no excuses.

--Len
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Myrkul

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2008, 12:10:11 pm »

He means that banning beer, cell-phones, sex while driving, etc., misses the point. All things being equal, it's up to the driver to make his own decisions. If his decisions result in harm, he will bear full responsibility with no excuses.

--Len

I see the point... Problem is, I also see the other side of the issue:

How do you make restitution for a life? On the other side of the coin, to whom do you make restitution for simply endangering a life? Would you really rather that someone be hurt, killed or suffer loss of property before a dangerous driver loses the ability to harm anyone? (Even if only because the injured party now has his car)

I'm going to have to devote a good deal of thought to this...
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 12:53:31 pm by Myrkul »
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein
"If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl." -H. L. Menken

Bedwere

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2008, 12:12:39 pm »

We should ban airplanes because they might have engine failure and crash into a house. By just flying you are endangering life.  :rolleyes:
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Lenny

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2008, 12:36:17 pm »

Like Bedwere said, all our lives are always at risk, and there's not much we can do about it. We can juggle the risk factors, stay out of bad neighborhoods, carry guns and hire guards, but the fact is our lives are still in danger. The impulse to eliminate all danger is what made "primitive" man pray to rocks, and makes "modern" man pray to politicians. Both are equally able to deliver, but the rocks are less dangerous to their own worshipers (and everyone else).

In a free world, you can claim restitution from the drunk and, more importantly, from the road's owner. That won't bring back the dead--but knowing the risk to himself will certainly motivate the road's owner to do what he reasonably can to mitigate the risks to his customers.

Thanks to socialized roads, nobody even thinks of suing the road's owner. We treat 40,000 deaths every year--almost a Vietnam a year, more than thirteen 9/11s a year--as acts of God. Sue the government? Are you nuts? You might as well sue Thor for sending hurricanes on Florida!

--Len
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 12:38:36 pm by Lenny »
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Bedwere

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2008, 12:52:12 pm »

You might as well sue Thor for sending hurricanes on Florida!

--Len

Try that and he will pound you with his hammer!!!! :laugh:
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Myrkul

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2008, 01:17:04 pm »

You might as well sue Thor for sending hurricanes on Florida!

--Len

Try that and he will pound you with his hammer!!!! :laugh:

Which is, Ironically, almost exactly what will happen if try to sue the gubment for all the traffic deaths.

In a 100% free world where Roads are private, Then, Yes, all of these deterrents would work, the road owners would act to keep the roads safe, or not, as they chose, and you could choose, or not, to use their roads. I'd be pretty happy with that. But ask yourself this question:

How would the road owners act to keep the roads safe, so they would not be sued?

Here's my answer. Take it or leave it.

They would hire people to patrol the roads, and when they see someone swerving, and weaving, and otherwise acting impaired, they'd pull 'em over. The most likely punishment for this, to protect the road owner, would be Revocation of that driver's ability to use that road, or possibly even any of the road owner's Roads. If said road owner had a monopoly, the situation would be no different than what we have today. Nothing's stopping you from setting up a private road on your property.
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"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -Robert A. Heinlein
"If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl." -H. L. Menken

Lenny

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2008, 01:31:44 pm »

They would hire people to patrol the roads, and when they see someone swerving, and weaving, and otherwise acting impaired, they'd pull 'em over. The most likely punishment for this, to protect the road owner, would be Revocation of that driver's ability to use that road, or possibly even any of the road owner's Roads...

Probably true. Not necessarily, because the market comes up with much cleverer strategies than "lets hire lots of burly guys to shewt 'em!" But quite possible.

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If said road owner had a monopoly, the situation would be no different than what we have today.

You mean it would look no different. Pirates operating a stolen ship look just like ship-owners operating their legitimate property. If you're a stowaway on a pirate ship, and they evict you, it looks the same to you as if legitimate owners evicted you for stowing away. You might never even know that they were pirates in the first place. But it isn't the same. For one thing, the pirates have no right of eviction, and can be charged with murder if you drown. The owners do have the right, and can't be charged.

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Nothing's stopping you from setting up a private road on your property.

Seems argumentative. Are you really saying, "Since a free society might look similar to what we have, we might as well stop whining about what he have"? Isn't that a bit like saying, "So what if he killed her? She was about to die anyway!"?

--Len
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2008, 01:33:24 pm »

...
the situation would be no different than what we have today. Nothing's stopping you from setting up a private road on your property.

The situation would be vastly different. In a free market for travel "roads" would not be the only option for one thing. For another thing, a monopoly on a privately held road would not be a monopoly maintained by another monopoly - the monopoly on the intiation of force.

I have a road on my property. I doubt you would pay to use it. It starts at the city road and ends at my garage. So, if you are coming to visit, I'll let you drive on it for free. It's only about 20 feet long.

If I had a choice in modes of transport, and one of the choices was a road where the owner had to verify my sobriety every time I entered the road, I'd be looking for another way to get where I want to go.

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Lenny

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2008, 01:37:37 pm »

The situation would be vastly different. In a free market for travel "roads" would not be the only option for one thing. For another thing, a monopoly on a privately held road would not be a monopoly maintained by another monopoly - the monopoly on the intiation of force.

Good point! That difference has real consequences.

Most notably, if the road-owner's private security beats someone senseless, tases and then pepper-sprays him, they can be charged with a crime. They can even be shot in self-defense. Since they don't represent the monopolist on force, they don't have special leeway to assault and kill people. I'd rather be stopped by a rentacop any day! They tend to be more self-important and obnoxious than real cops, in my experience, but that's precisely because they have so much less power. All they can do is bluster, because they know they'd definitely lose their jobs, and probably go to prison, if they rough up a customer.

--Len
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Kregener

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2008, 01:57:07 pm »

You CAN poke a grizzly bear....with a 30.06.

 :mellow:
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2008, 03:48:16 pm »

And note also that I did not mention the Breathalyzer. Myself, I could give a shit if you've got a BAL of .5, if you can drive. (hell, at that level, I'll be amazed you can breathe) But if you can drive a straight line, and stay in your lane at that level, Go for it. I fully support your right to get hammered out of your mind. I do not grant you the privilege of endangering my life by doing so.

And just how did it come to be your prerogative? (Or anyone else's?) Why should I care what you "grant" or not? Who the devil are you to make that decision for anyone else?

Just living "endangers" your life. Nobody and nothing can remove the risk from life. If laws against impaired driving were effective, there would be no more drunk drivers. Murder has been against the law for an awful long time, but it still happens...  The best we can do is deal with it when it does happen. "Laws" against arbitrary behavior have been tried for centuries, but so far has not resulted in either an increase in liberty or a reduction in crime.

There is another whole thread about DUI on this board. Might want to take this discussion over there.
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2008, 06:35:19 pm »

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"Laws" against arbitrary behavior have been tried for centuries, but so far has not resulted in either an increase in liberty or a reduction in crime.

No......but they sure do generate revenue and are a GREAT excuse to grow more government...
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iloilo

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Re: Libertarians should stop insulting cops
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2008, 11:22:33 pm »

Quote
"Laws" against arbitrary behavior have been tried for centuries, but so far has not resulted in either an increase in liberty or a reduction in crime.

No......but they sure do generate revenue and are a GREAT excuse to grow more government...

 :laugh: :laugh:
daD calls this taxation and confiscation by citation.
ff

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