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Author Topic: New study shows that rejection hurts  (Read 17602 times)

Sunni

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« on: October 10, 2003, 11:48:48 am »

Hi everyone,

Curiously enough, after reading some debate about shunning here on another topic, I came across an article in New Scientist this morning that describes a study offering proof it works. Here's the URL:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?...p?id=ns99994257

It's not definitive, but offers solid proof that shunning as a social tool can work. I think it's also a tactic libertarians could employ that would get less "pure" but like-minded individuals to join with them.
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Claire

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2003, 12:03:03 pm »

Interesting. Maybe this also sheds new light on why so many people were willing to shock others in the Milgram experiments, and why some of the ordinary men who slaughtered Jews en masse for Hitler in Poland insisted they did it only because they "didn't want to let down" their companions.

Not only the mind, but the brain, might resist social rejection?
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Augustwest

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2003, 12:04:06 pm »

I read something about this last night with great interest, and a little skepticism.

But I guess there probably is some truth to it, so...

My question then is this: can using it as a tactic be reconciled with the ZAP? Does pointedly shunning someone, with its consequent "pain response," not become an act of aggression of sorts?

Not criticizing the idea. Just trying to figure out how it fits into the grand scheme...
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Hunter

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2003, 12:18:21 pm »

It is definitely an act of force. I've twice seen someone literally driven to an emotional breakdown that required psychiatric care by shunning. Like any other force, though, if it is used in a reactive, defensive, and proportionate response, there is no moral issue.  
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Augustwest

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2003, 01:54:34 pm »

Quote
Not only the mind, but the brain, might resist social rejection?

Wouldn't shock me. All part of the same shootin' match.

Quote
Like any other force, though, if it is used in a reactive, defensive, and proportionate response, there is no moral issue.

Agreed. I, f'rinstance, would have no trouble (other than having to take cover) telling Lon Horiuchi what a momma's boy dipthong he is, and keeping him offa my t-ball team.

Not sure if I'm keen on its application on "like-mindeds" though...

But I often stop to move dead squirrels to the side of the road, so I'm not always sure my views on how we oughta treat each other aren't a little skewed...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 02:21:58 pm by Augustwest »
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Wulfgar

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2003, 02:02:31 pm »

Quote
My question then is this: can using it as a tactic be reconciled with the ZAP?
I'm new around here.  I've seen ZAP a couple of times before, but I just can't grok it.  Someone fill me in?
 
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Hunter

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2003, 02:18:35 pm »

It stands for

Zero Aggression Principle, and is sometimes referred to by less enlighted souls as the "Non-Aggression Principle". Here is the best definition of it I have ever seen by one of the leading philosophers of the movement, who cleverly disguises himself as a science fiction writer and affable curmudgeon:

Quote
Zero Aggression Principle ("Zap")

"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right, under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are not libertarians, regardless of what they may claim."
- L. Neil Smith
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mantispid

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2003, 02:46:53 pm »

I'm a bit curious.. how is shunning someone an act of force?  Isn't it simply omission of interaction?  
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Hunter

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2003, 02:55:12 pm »

If you do it right, it is a bit more than that. Little things like never making eye contact with them, or acting as if they are not in the room. It can be brutally effective if the people who choose to do it are determined enough. Not a tactic I suggest lightly, but when we have tyrant wannabes running around killing people with gleeful abandon and nary a sign of remorse, my scruples are rather satisfied.
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Augustwest

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2003, 02:56:56 pm »

The gist of the article is that being socially shunned causes brain activity very much like that shown during times of physical pain.

Taking an action (or lack thereof) to cause such a reaction can reasonably (uh, oh, there's that word) viewed as an act of aggression. IMO.
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ZooT_aLLures

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2003, 03:23:21 pm »

Although I might be shunned by those of this forum, I feel I must share my thoughts on NAP and ZAP.

The following is from an article I wrote a while back:

N.A.P (non aggression principle) and Z.A.P.(zero aggression principle)? Although one may believe in these things, 'till the day we own our land and our lives again, these are only "catch phrases" designed to provide a non threatening appearance to the dissatisfied individual hearing them, in the hopes of avoiding persecution and prosecution... and thus are nothing but C.R.A.P. Merely being dissatisfied and vocal makes you an enemy of government, so don't talk too loud or in any areas where people might actually listen. And don't say things people can understand.

No badge with a smiley face in a flower is going to protect you because you don't believe in being aggressive nor assertive.

"Either you're with us or against us" (GWBush on primetime TV)

"Those who frighten people with phantoms of lost liberties and freedom are aiding terrorism" (John Ashcroft primetime TV)

Still think your smiley badge will save you?

How bout we coin a more descriptive "catch phrase".

T.N.V.A.P. (total non violent aggression principle) which in effect means, I'll not raise arms against you first... but I'll be damned if I'm going to help you in any manner. You are not my friend and you don't represent me or my wishes, nor do you even pretend to anymore. I'll provide no aid or comfort to you, your family, or your henchmen. I denounce you as my authority, my ruler, and my leader. From this day forth I rule myself and only myself.

 
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Hunter

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2003, 03:34:50 pm »

Errrrr. Zoot ol' boy, where zegactly did you get the idea that beleiving in the ZAP does not allow one to defend themselves? I don't start fights of any sort, but I damn well finish them with anyone foolish enough to come after me. I think you will find that most believers in the ZAP feel the same way. Some people go so far as to say actual pacifism is incompatible with the ZAP.
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Augustwest

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2003, 03:40:46 pm »

Zoot, I think you're assuming that folks think the AG and the rest of the past lordknowshowmany administrations, congresses, etc. haven't already "initiated." Not so.
 
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Wulfgar

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2003, 03:42:30 pm »

Ok, so help a newbie to understand here.

ZAP=Zero Agression Policy
NAP=Non Agression Policy

Since they're distinct acronyms, I assume there is a subtle difference?

I understand that self-defense is NOT denounced, and is in fact encouraged by either.

What is the practical difference?
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Hunter

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New study shows that rejection hurts
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2003, 03:45:42 pm »

Oh, sorry, none. L Neil Smith realized a while back that "ZAP" sounds better than "NAP" when you are talking to people who have never heard of either. So he advocated changing the name, and a lot of us liked his point. They are interchangable, though of course ZAP is way coolest.  :P  
« Last Edit: October 10, 2003, 03:46:24 pm by Hunter »
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