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Author Topic: Whose Debt?  (Read 1483 times)


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Whose Debt?
« on: December 13, 2008, 10:49:39 am »

I create a little controversy with some folks when I say the national debt isn't the debt of We, The People. Here's Larken Rose explaining the concept much better than I could.

.                  Whose Debt?

I just watched a video about the "national debt." It went on and on
about fiscal responsibility, the problem with the deficit, how bad
it is now, and the projections for how it will get a lot worse. But
underlying the seemingly virtuous message was a huge, utterly
insane assumption--the assumption underlying almost all discussion
you'll hear about such things: the notion that there can BE a
"national debt."

In literal terms, without the authoritarian propaganda spin, here
is how things work: A bunch of liars and crooks, declaring
themselves to be our rightful rulers, steal tons and tons of money
from the rest of us. They then spend far MORE than they steal, and
declare that the difference, the debt, is OUR responsibility. And
almost everyone accepts that as true.

It's not.

Those wearing the label of "government" borrowed money from people,
promising to pay it back. How would they do that? By continually
taxing you and me. EVERYONE, Americans and foreigners, who bought
Treasury bonds, or by any other means loaned money to any
government, on the promise that the government would later pay it
back, was banking on the fact that the tyrants would be able to
continue robbing YOU and ME. That is how "investments" in all
levels of "government," from federal stuff down to local "municipal
bonds," work.

To be blunt, if you were one of those who invested in SLAVERY, by
lending money to "governments"--whether here or anywhere else--you
DESERVE to lose everything, and I hope you do. The notion that I
somehow acquired some obligation to pay YOU something, because a
thief promised to keep on robbing me to pay for things HE bought,
without my consent, is idiotic. It's also an insult to my
intelligence and yours.

So why aren't Americans outraged? Because they're indoctrinated
and/or stupid. Imagine that a thief steals your wallet. He then
goes on a shopping spree, buying $300 worth of stuff. Then, to his
horror, he finds that you only had $200 in your wallet. To fix the
problem, he sends YOU a bill for the remaining $100 "deficit."
Would you feel obligated to pay up?

Well, if the thief called himself "government," and you're an
average American, apparently you would. And then you would get
together with all the other duped morons, wring your hands, and
ponder what can be done about the problem. But the problem is not
one of finances; it's one of philosophy. As long as you think YOU
are obligated to make up for the scams of the crooks who call
themselves "government," you are doomed. If you think they'll ever
cut back on their power (spending, regulation, taxation) to be nice
to YOU, you're an idiot. They will happily borrow and spend you
into absolute poverty.

To those of you stupid and/or evil enough to have loaned money to
the U.S. government, or to any other government, on the promise
that they'd later rob people like ME to pay you back, I wish you
the worst of luck. I hope you never see a dime of what you
"invested" in the slavery industry. And don't tell ME I have some
obligation to pay off a debt that POLITICIANS incurred. When you're
talking to me, don't use such idiotic terms as "national debt." The
nation doesn't owe anyone anything. The people who SPENT the money--
the crooks in DC--might owe it. I don't.

There's a very easy way to fix the "federal budget deficit" and
"national debt" problems: ignore them out of existence. To any who
have invested in oppression and government extortion, the joke's on
you. You're not quite as bad as the thieves you financed, but
you're pretty darn bad. And when the day comes, which is fast
approaching, when all your "investments" disappear, don't come
crying to me. You deserve it, for the exact same reason that people
who invested in the slave trade industry two hundred years ago
deserved to lose everything. Next time, try investing in trade,
instead of theft.

Larken Rose

Past messages to this list can be found here:
Live Free Or Die: Death is not the worst of evils.

"Resist much, obey little." ~ Walt Whitman

If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government — and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws. — EDWARD ABBEY


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Re: Whose Debt?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2008, 07:27:19 pm »

Amen and hallelujah!   :mellow: 

I'm so sick of the MSM self-righteously announcing how much "my share" of the endlessly growing government debt is.  Eff that! 

Let 'em try to collect from me.  I didn't sign any damn loan papers.  And you can't get blood from a stone anyway...   :laugh:
I'm damn well free to dance through life even if 'they' expect me to cringe and crawl.

"Your life is an occasion.  Rise to it."  --Dustin Hoffman as Mr. Magorium, in Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium


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Re: Whose Debt?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2008, 04:23:26 am »

And you can't get blood from a stone anyway...   

No.....they can't get shit from a can they?  :laugh:
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.


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Re: Whose Debt?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2008, 07:11:20 am »

Of course the "national debt" will never be repaid. Mr. Rose joins many others (Bill Bonner in "Empire of Debt" does a particularly eloquent and thorough job) in illuminating the moral, ethical, and practical shortcomings of the very concept of public debt.

There are three possible courses of action:
1) Repudiation
2) Inflation
3) Losses to creditors.

All three will probably be used.  The present regime wants to avoid outright repudiation, and is presently pursuing a policy that will lead to inflation, if not hyperinflation.  Inflation allows the debt to be repaid with money that is worth  less than when it was loaned, while keeping the regime in power.  Hyperinflation destroys the currency and all debts and credits denominated in that currency.  Hyperinflation also tends to sweep the regime from power.

Repudiation will happen if hyperinflation doesn't end the game first.  Right now, the tax and spend system that leads to debt does the most harm to small and medium-sized employers and high-earning individuals.  Since these people are always a small minority the workings of democracy assures that they get the worst screwing.

But the truth is that the present system screws everyone under age 45 or so, and the thrifty and frugal of all ages, with the damage growing worse the younger the worker.  These people will never see the Social Security and Medicare benefits they are paying now for their parents and other older Americans. 

Stealing from the most productive is just good politics, but once enough young people realize they are getting the same shaft as the businessmen they have been taught to hate, the debt will be repudiated.  There is no reason for young workers to pay for an older generation's profligate spending.  The middle-aged poor are going to get the screwing when that happens, but there can be little doubt that it will happen, unless society as we know it is destroyed by hyperinflation first.

Part of the reason Ron Paul had such popular success was that the brighter young people have already figured this out.  That's why he got cheers when he talked about eliminating the Federal Reserve and returning to sound money.  The present system is designed specifically to steal from the young and the poor in order to give more and more to the old and rich and powerful.  When enough people, particularly young people, realize how the cards have been stacked against them, the game will end. 

The question we face, probably sooner rather than later, is what will be put in its place.  The new regime is already well down the path of national socialism, and signals sympathy for outright eco-fascism.  History shows that great depressions and hyperinflations often enable the rise of strongmen who lead the nation and the world to further destruction and ruin.  This may be such a time.  While there be enough well-educated TMM members, Miseans, Paulites, anarchists, and other students of freedom to turn the tide, to show the way to the foundation of a peaceful and prosperous society? 




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Re: Whose Debt?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2008, 09:06:25 am »

  Well said silver. There is no reason why the young should pay for the profligacy of the old. When they realize that fact, change will occur. The type of "real" change is yet to be seen.
  My generation, the baby boomers, has bankrupted their country, along with the older generation, who lap up the Social Security and Medicare dollars. As they watch their big screen TVs, the future of their children and grandchildren grows darker and darker. They scream "someone must do something", never realizing that "someone" is them. Sooner, or later, change will occur. It must.

  Shorty Dawkins
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Re: Whose Debt?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 05:52:37 pm »

For the curious reader...

    America’s Glorious Empire of Debt by Bill Bonner
    Mar 3, 2006 ... Let us take a moment to stand back and gaze at America’s great Empire of Debt.
    It is the largest edifice of debt ever put up ...

    Empire of Debt and Delusion by Bill Bonner
    Jul 7, 2005 ... Empire of Debt and Delusion. We have been fascinated by the big, big picture. You'll recall, dear reader, ...

    And the Book is at Empire of Debt: The Rise of an Epic Financial Crisis
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