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Author Topic: B.A.R.T. Shooting  (Read 22422 times)

Alton Speers

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B.A.R.T. Shooting
« on: January 06, 2009, 02:23:39 am »

I understand that this is a forum for discussion of tasering incidents. I plea for leniency. At the same I offer the suggestion of expanding the scope of this forum to the discussion of all forms of police aggression against the residents of this land.

I rarely come to this forum simply because this is the one topic that I have the most difficulty dealing with. Lord knows I've tried. Unfortunately, I've found nothing to effectively control what can be best described as a visceral response. It's been at least a half hour since I initially viewed the news video of the event that triggered this post and I am still shaking trying to burn off the adrenaline, the rage, at this kind of occurrence. In some ways I hope I never get over this kind of response. I don't wish to be anesthetized to the horror and brutality of life in the US of A. However, it is necessary to quell the adrenal response for no other reason than to maintain control of myself. For now, typing this is distraction enough to help wind me down.

The report mentioned is here: http://www.ktvu.com/video/18409133/index.html
BART = Bay Area Rapid Transit = California-->San Fran-->Oakland-->etc. metro area serviced by BART

The video captures what can be best described as an execution. Granted, it is conceivable that the officer, due to his own uncontrollable adrenaline rush due to the stress of the situation had a mental or muscular spasm that generated an unintended firing of the weapon. Nevertheless, no reason existed for drawing his weapon in the first place as the subject was both subdued and restrained. Of course, at this point it fair to you that I offer adequate disclosure of my thoughts so that you can understand my particular bias...I can't stand police. Beyond that I will offer no further explanations as those have been deposited in various threads around the whole of this forum over the course of my membership here.

Anyway, back the topic at hand, the news video linked above is a clear representation of what happened. there is much that can be learned from regarding the police procedure in handling the overall situation.  Thanks to YouTube there is another video. This second video is a video not only of the incident, but also of reactions of the people who were passengers on the B.A.R.T. train at the Fruitvale station at the time of the shooting. This section of the video is all blurry and the audio portion is what you would need to focus on to gain the most instruction of the people's response to the shooting. The confusion, chaos and concerns captured in those few minutes are indeed quite telling. That video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_K0PISpxx4&feature=related

The last section of the YouTube video is a video of an interviewee for a KTVU broadcast which was a follow up to the report linked above. You can view that interview at the KTVU site. the YouTube video is again most instructive as you can see how the press works to get what it wants.

From this combination of videos you can safely draw many conclusions about the condition of not only government but also of societal conditions that allow this evil to not only exist but also to flourish in this land.

For any would-be writers of fiction this could be a basis of a story. Consider the irony of current American youth gangs becoming the nation's saviour as they get the notion to go to war against the police of this land. It would seem that in the modern, mostly disarmed society that these gang-bangers are the only ones with the weaponry, organization and anger to go up against the armed thugs of the state. Perhaps such a story already exists. Still, one can't help but think that someday there will be revolt from some quarter against these uniformed thugs. At least one can hope...
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MamaLiberty

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 08:51:45 am »

I'll have to go back and see if I can find the link, but the most telling thing for me was the reader's comments to the text report of this story. One suggested that the cop thought he had a taser instead of the gun. Who knows? We cannot read minds or see everything that happened from a video taken from only one angle.

We have all heard (and some have experienced) how multiple eye witnesses to an event come up with pretty widely different stories of what happened. We can hope there will be a fair and intelligent investigation of this incident, though none of us should hold our breath waiting for it.

I am not able to view on line video, so I couldn't see it. I did read the report, and think there is probably plenty of evidence to suggest that the cop made some serious errors, and might well have - due to very poor training - shot this person unintentionally in a rush of adrenalin. Why he drew the gun is a real mystery, given the helplessness of the man he shot.

We may never know the truth. To automatically assume that the cop killed this person deliberately, in malice, is far too much of a stretch given what little information we have at this point.

But to condemn all police across the board is not going to accomplish anything useful. And the idea of promoting the criminal gangs as some sort of righteous executioners of police strikes me as absolutely counterproductive.
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Klapton Isgod

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 09:46:52 am »

The part that galls me is that the cop, who is at least guilty of manslaughter, and screwed up bad enough that he should not be allowed to be a police officer, will probably get off scott free.  We shall see, of course.  But the biggest difference between the GovGang and all the others is that the GovGang has a monopoly on running the courts.
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Bennie

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 10:44:44 am »

The video captures what can be best described as an execution. Granted, it is conceivable that the officer, due to his own uncontrollable adrenaline rush due to the stress of the situation had a mental or muscular spasm that generated an unintended firing of the weapon. Nevertheless, no reason existed for drawing his weapon in the first place as the subject was both subdued and restrained.

I can't bring myself to watch that again. Horrible.
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Alton Speers

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 03:17:21 pm »

I'll have to go back and see if I can find the link, but the most telling thing for me was the reader's comments to the text report of this story. One suggested that the cop thought he had a taser instead of the gun. Who knows? We cannot read minds or see everything that happened from a video taken from only one angle.

We have all heard (and some have experienced) how multiple eye witnesses to an event come up with pretty widely different stories of what happened. We can hope there will be a fair and intelligent investigation of this incident, though none of us should hold our breath waiting for it.

I am not able to view on line video, so I couldn't see it. I did read the report, and think there is probably plenty of evidence to suggest that the cop made some serious errors, and might well have - due to very poor training - shot this person unintentionally in a rush of adrenalin. Why he drew the gun is a real mystery, given the helplessness of the man he shot.

We may never know the truth. To automatically assume that the cop killed this person deliberately, in malice, is far too much of a stretch given what little information we have at this point.

But to condemn all police across the board is not going to accomplish anything useful. And the idea of promoting the criminal gangs as some sort of righteous executioners of police strikes me as absolutely counterproductive.

ML, I don't know what the report said. I do know what I saw on the video. The BART thug stood up AFTER holding the suspect on the ground along with another thug. The suspect was restrained, if not mechanically by cuffs, then at least by the other thug who was at the head and shoulder area of the suspect. The thug that stood up drew his weapon, pointed at the suspect in the head area and shot the kid. I don't have a time index other than the timer on the YouTube video (which I did NOT note) to count the delay between the drawing of the weapon and the firing of the weapon. If I had to guess I would say about 1 - 2 seconds. Having held a taser in my hand I can feel confident in saying that the difference in weight, balance and other physical attributes between a taser and a service weapon is sufficient enough to discern the difference between the two.

As far as assuming malice on the part of the BART thug, I would say that it is highly probable. I am willing to give a sliver of a doubt but no more. The video was clear enough to see the thug's body language. It was like he wasn't even there mentally. Sort of like he was on autopilot. What you didn't see in the video was the victim's head.

As far as the suggestion (not promotion) to writers I made no such description of "righteous executioners". Perhaps you got tripped up by the use of the descriptor "saviours". I did note that it would be an irony as in the sense of feared street thugs going after the footsoldiers of the government, those who are believed to be the great heroes, the guys in white hats that ride to society's rescue.

Honestly, I do understand and applaud your abhorrence of violence. I also assume that you've noticed that govthugs, like common street thugs, do not go away when we ask nicely. Nor do they stay away. To them we are too much like carrion and they too much like vultures. The sad part is that someday, perhaps soon, they will swoop down on the wrong person at the wrong time and, of course, they will ALL be the wrong people in the wrong situation at the wrong time and violence will explode and all the wrong people will die. It will happen you know. I don't want it to happen. Nevertheless, it will happen.  It's happening now with the "regular" criminal element. Think of how many govthugs have been shot or killed over the last decade. There will be more. Popo has done and is doing the will of it's masters. Blowback is part of the price to pay for that..



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dogsledder54

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 03:38:34 pm »

Another reason to CCW. If someone in the crowd was armed, they could have shot the perps and saved the taxpayers a helluva lotta money. As well as insuring JUSTICE,  which will almost certainly BE DENIED otherwise.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 05:20:41 pm »

Quote
Honestly, I do understand and applaud your abhorrence of violence. I also assume that you've noticed that govthugs, like common street thugs, do not go away when we ask nicely.

Alton, of course the thugs won't go away just because we ask them to. Neither the common or the "official" criminals. That is why I am armed at all times, why I went to the trouble to become a certified handgun and self defense instructor, and why I labor long and hard to promote armed self defense. My only abhorrence of violence is that of AGGRESSION.

But I want to be sure that I never become the aggressor. I only have a moral and legal leg to stand on if I am not the one attacking. Therefore, I want to extend to every other human being the same right I have to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. There are many circumstances where guilt can be assumed, but after honest investigation the truth is often otherwise.

It is easy to hate. It is easy for ME to hate these parasites and monsters without question if I allow it to happen. But if we insist they are "all the same" rather than individuals, and insist on rushing to judgment by emotional reaction only... we are perhaps no better than they are in the long run. :)
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da gooch

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 05:52:02 pm »

Quote
Honestly, I do understand and applaud your abhorrence of violence. I also assume that you've noticed that govthugs, like common street thugs, do not go away when we ask nicely.

Alton, of course the thugs won't go away just because we ask them to. Neither the common or the "official" criminals. That is why I am armed at all times, why I went to the trouble to become a certified handgun and self defense instructor, and why I labor long and hard to promote armed self defense. My only abhorrence of violence is that of AGGRESSION.

But I want to be sure that I never become the aggressor. I only have a moral and legal leg to stand on if I am not the one attacking. Therefore, I want to extend to every other human being the same right I have to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. There are many circumstances where guilt can be assumed, but after honest investigation the truth is often otherwise.

It is easy to hate. It is easy for ME to hate these parasites and monsters without question if I allow it to happen. But if we insist they are "all the same" rather than individuals, and insist on rushing to judgment by emotional reaction only... we are perhaps no better than they are in the long run. :)


I am NOT trying to be argumentative I just want to ask ....
Who is going to ask for or seek the restitution for the victim in this case ?
What is the restitution value for a mans life ?

If you [personally] are present when the LEO's "overstep" their legal boundaries what then ?
Citizens Arrest ?  Of two armed B.A.R.T. Agents ?  And If they resist ?






Should I stand by and watch an unarmed and subdued man shot to death without any reaction because the aggression is not directed against Me ?


Truth in Posting disclaimer: I, too, am on dial-up and have not "seen" the video.
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dogsledder54

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 09:22:08 pm »


Truth in Posting disclaimer: I, too, am on dial-up and have not "seen" the video.



The video quality is not very good, but it is obvious that the victim is lying facedown on the floor when he is shot.  I can see no reason that he was a threat.  In fact, he says "Please don't shoot me."
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canadian

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 01:25:47 am »

And still the revolution does not come.
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Alton Speers

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 07:29:33 am »

Quote
Honestly, I do understand and applaud your abhorrence of violence. I also assume that you've noticed that govthugs, like common street thugs, do not go away when we ask nicely.

Alton, of course the thugs won't go away just because we ask them to. Neither the common or the "official" criminals. That is why I am armed at all times, why I went to the trouble to become a certified handgun and self defense instructor, and why I labor long and hard to promote armed self defense. My only abhorrence of violence is that of AGGRESSION.

But I want to be sure that I never become the aggressor. I only have a moral and legal leg to stand on if I am not the one attacking. Therefore, I want to extend to every other human being the same right I have to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. There are many circumstances where guilt can be assumed, but after honest investigation the truth is often otherwise.

It is easy to hate. It is easy for ME to hate these parasites and monsters without question if I allow it to happen. But if we insist they are "all the same" rather than individuals, and insist on rushing to judgment by emotional reaction only... we are perhaps no better than they are in the long run. :)

ML, there is no longer a question of aggression or of being the aggressor. In any dealings with the state, whether bureaucrats, imposed laws or the armed agents of the state, the aggression has already occurred. All who call themselves Americans or simply residents of this land are already on the defense. How can a forced slave be an aggressor except against another slave or a foreigner? Any act against the master is therefore always an act of defense. There is NO social bond between this government and the people of this land. There is no social contract. They announce. You comply... or face the consequences of failing to comply.

Now these parasites, government employees of any position, may be your neighbors. They may be your friends or even your kin. Nevertheless they ARE the parasites. They are part of the collective "master". They are the aggressors. Regardless of their laws and policies, which are, after all, designed to protect only them and their supporters (hence "just us" instead of justice), we, the objects and victims of their aggression, have NO moral or ethical duty to comply, submit or withhold any manner or means in our defense against their aggression in either direct or indirect confrontation of it's occurrence.

Look, regardless of what you may think I am 100% in agreement with you on the NAP/ZAP. It's something I do practice daily, as difficult as it may be at times. I'll smile and quip "Yes Massa" to avoid unnecessary confrontation (learn to pick your battles) even though I am clearly in the right. Unfortunately we're quickly approaching the time where a "Yes Massa" doesn't work anymore. Aggressions by the aggressors are becoming more mindless and brutal. As evidenced by the video they are now lethal. What is it now, 400+ dead from tasering alone? And they do PLAN on more! Their ramping up of their aggression serves only to hasten their time of recompense. And when the slaves do decide to fight back it will damned bloody. Even so, the blame for all that blood lies squarely and fully on their shoulders. Why? Because in all cases they have made themselves the aggressors.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 09:22:38 am »

Quote
Their ramping up of their aggression serves only to hasten their time of recompense. And when the slaves do decide to fight back it will damned bloody. Even so, the blame for all that blood lies squarely and fully on their shoulders. Why? Because in all cases they have made themselves the aggressors.

Absolutely. I'm not arguing with this. Picking our battles, and making every round, word, action COUNT is very, very important - when the time comes, and the opportunity presents itself. Should someone have shot this BART cop? I don't know. I was not there. I have to examine MY motives here and now, MY actions in the situations I find myself in. I can't second guess the people who were THERE. I can't act for them, or dictate how they should act.

Remember also that the original American Patriots won when they picked the battle and shot from behind the trees, targeting the officers. They lost their shirts when they tried to meet the Redcoats in regular battle formation. We are not going to win this war by direct, face to face confrontations with massed federal, state or whatever - though that may be forced upon us. 

I'm simply doing my best to carefully analyze MY situation and refrain from becoming the aggressor. That, and I do not accept that EVERY policeman, or EVERY soldier, etc. is the aggressor and the enemy. Or should we just walk out and start shooting? Of course not! We will also never win the respect and assistance of the general population if we become the aggressors in THEIR eyes, regardless of how we see it.

We don't want to be stereotyped as "gun nuts," or "terrorists." We should not do that to others. I want to respect the equal rights of others to be treated as innocent until proven guilty by due process (not necessarily the current "justice" system), a jury of their peers, reasoned and rational deliberation - not a condemnation off the cuff from a poor video or hearsay. We would expect that right if we were accused of murder. How can we not extend it to every other human being?
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dogsledder54

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 09:46:39 am »

I believe that actual armed conflict will not be necessary. The enemy will simply spend  its way out of existence. The financial collapse is coming, and the days of government bullying the citizens will end due to the sheer expense of it all. I could be wrong, but IMHO the Fall of the American Empire is coming, sooner rather than later.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 10:00:36 am »

PJ, I think that most of us hope for that outcome. I don't think it's going to be that easy. When the government finally spends it's way out of existence, we'll still have to deal with the millions of people who only survive because they get a check from that government. They are not suddenly going to learn how to provide for themselves. Many, if not most, will be looking for someone to loot in order to eat.

Thus enters "civil unrest" and the enforcers will move in, if there are any. It may get hard to tell them from the looters. I think we will have a very rough time, at least for a while.
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Klapton Isgod

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Re: B.A.R.T. Shooting
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 10:19:08 am »

We don't want to be stereotyped as "gun nuts," or "terrorists." We should not do that to others. I want to respect the equal rights of others to be treated as innocent until proven guilty by due process (not necessarily the current "justice" system), a jury of their peers, reasoned and rational deliberation - not a condemnation off the cuff from a poor video or hearsay. We would expect that right if we were accused of murder. How can we not extend it to every other human being?

This is why I believe that for a libertarian revolution to be successful, it will have to be non-violent.  It will have to be based on civil disobedience rather than armed resistance.  Don't get me wrong...  I believe 100% in our right to resist force with force.  I just have serious doubts that it will result in victory.  The most likely result will be martyrdom.  To be a truly effective martyr, you need to be completely and obviously innocent.  One cannot be obviously innocent in the eyes of the sheeple if you die holding a gun.

What really needs to happen is exactly what others have said about the Beast running out of money...  But we need a wide-spread effort to starve it on purpose.  By that I mean, we need a nation-wide, non-violent tax revolt.  With SO many people refusing to pay that there simply wouldn't be enough JBTs to arrest them all.
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