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[Elias Alias]

  Simply refusing to participate may not be enough. If others are going to go ahead and do those things, then someone also has to stop them.

Welcome aboard, PatriotsWrath. The two sentences of yours which I've quoted above caused me to blink when I read them. Please allow me to elucidate the error for your better understanding.

Oath Keepers is asking Oath Takers to be Oath Keepers. It is not asking Oath Keepers to make sure others keep their oaths - we are only asking each person, individually, to honor his/her oath to the U.S. Constitution. We are not asking any Oath Keeper to make sure anyone else keeps his/her oath. Oath Keepers believes in personal responsibility. The individual is responsible for his own actions and no one else's. Oath Keepers remains focused on the individual Oath Taker's willingness to understand and honor his/her oath. Oath Keepers does not imply, suggest, or require of any individual Oath Keeper that he "do" anything to "force" any other individual to honor that oath. Oath Keepers does not condone coercion, does not require any Oath Keeper to mind the business of any other individual. No one is required to make sure anyone else keeps his/her oath. To require that would be the endorsement of coercion, and Oath Keepers does not endorse coercion. Each Oath Keeper is responsible only to himself, same as is any Oath Taker.

The following paragraph is not directed at you personally, but I'm including it here for the benefit of other readers. Please don't take this personally, okay? Thanks!

Everyone who tries to come in here and motivate Oath Keepers to advocate any particular course of action other than the mission of Oath Keepers, which is to inspire and educate all Oath Takers to become Oath Keepers, is attempting to do the impossible. Oath Keepers' leadership is extremely intelligent, experienced, educated, dedicated, and knowledgeable. We are well-versed in the struggle for liberty, and we are well versed in the tactics of the enemies of liberty, such as the misguided employees at MHRN and SPLC. Subtle or overt attempts to align Oath Keepers with any position, philosophy, policy, process, or purpose other than our simple mission statement shall be exposed quickly and disposed of properly.

Salute!
Elias

I sent a PM to you and to gooch.  I think you have misunderstood my statemet, either way it's something I struggle with so... Perhaps after reading the PM you can help.

PatriotsWrath,
Not avoiding your PM or this thread deliberately, but I must confess that I've had an incredible and impossible pace here for the past few days, and simply have not had time to be here. Tonight's not muchly improved over the last few days, either. But I want to thank you for the PM, and I promise I'll find some time soon to reply to that and to this thread.
I often muse about the difficulties encountered when dealing only with words between two people, as compared to speaking face to face in "real life". I'm totally open to reviewing what's been said here and seeing your words more closely as you intended them. But I'm really truly fighting for minutes here to do too many tasks each moment, so I'll close this with that appeal to your understanding. Thanks, Mon!
Salute!
Elias

[socalserf]

Oath Keepers is asking Oath Takers to be Oath Keepers. It is not asking Oath Keepers to make sure others keep their oaths - we are only asking each person, individually, to honor his/her oath to the U.S. Constitution. We are not asking any Oath Keeper to make sure anyone else keeps his/her oath. Oath Keepers believes in personal responsibility. The individual is responsible for his own actions and no one else's. Oath Keepers remains focused on the individual Oath Taker's willingness to understand and honor his/her oath. Oath Keepers does not imply, suggest, or require of any individual Oath Keeper that he "do" anything to "force" any other individual to honor that oath. Oath Keepers does not condone coercion, does not require any Oath Keeper to mind the business of any other individual. No one is required to make sure anyone else keeps his/her oath. To require that would be the endorsement of coercion, and Oath Keepers does not endorse coercion. Each Oath Keeper is responsible only to himself, same as is any Oath Taker.

Salute!
Elias

That's why I love OKs. Regardless of what my personal politics are.
A more sane and reasonable approach to our current problems I can't imagine.

[onebigelf]

who collaborated with white supremacist Randy Weaver on a book

So I'm going to jump in with my first post here by pointing out that this article makes that error of parroting the official government line on this.  Randy Weaver was not a white supremacist (or not proven to be one).  The FBI's notes revealed that they believed that Randy's views would make him acceptable to the local WS group the FBI was trying to infiltrate and they wanted him to spy for them.  Weaver refused, but denied any involvement with the white supremacist movement, citing numerous religious differences with their views.  The FBI entrapped him with a weapons charge in an effort to coerce him into serving their needs.  The accusation of being a white supremacist was cooked up AFTER the Ruby Ridge attack to partially justify the actions there.  The statement in the article makes clear the "journalist's" bias.

John

I am as happy to be despised by the despicable as I am to be admired by the admirable.

[2ndA]

Weaver was never a supremacist.  He was and remains a separatist.  He believed then and believes now(at least the last time I talked to him a couple or three years back) that different races should live apart because there are fundamental differences between them that for the most part can never be overcome.  Of course he was also of the opinion(rightly so as far as I am concerned) that the same race living in high density would exhibit most of the same problems, hence why he lived in BFE. 

It was these things the Feebs thought would work well for their purposes, not really grasping any difference(as usual).  The media accepted the label because they, too, see no difference since he doesn't fit the current leftist definition of "tolerance".

[oxi]

By crossing a line that invites the government to 'legally' infringe upon our 1st Amendment Rights, we would be forced into resorting to other methods. We choose to, peacefully, educate and inspire loyalty to the Constitution, so that those other methods are never required.

What happened to my 1st Amendment rights on this forum?

Opposing certain moderators positions and their response was banning, typical behavior of the federal government.  Your not allowed to oppose the moderators in this forum because they will use their dictator powers and remove you...

This is a grim testimony to the effectiveness of the fascist efforts to program and divide and conquer the Oath Keepers. We still have a Constitution and a First Amendment the last time I checked. Beyond that, we have a God-given right to express our thoughts and knowledge to others we think might find them of value.

As for his 'fearful' senior members and moderators...they are an integral part of the evil, and sheer mindlessness, that is consuming so much of this foundering, forlorn society.

The world has always been run via conspiracy now more than ever and any efforts to reveal and expose these dark machinations are among the highest forms of patriotism one can reach for.

Shame on Oath Keepers moderators and shame on those who live in fear of any 'new' ideas or concepts that are presented to them. Sheep are bonded by fear...that is why they remain in a herd, heads down, chewing...chewing...and chewing...

Working with local Sheriff's will not cut it, you need generals from the National Guard and even in the federal army if your going to have success.  You need them to cross the lines because they command the firepower unlike local Sheriff's that will be forced to surrender or be removed...

Men commanding tanks, helicopters, fighters and naval ships will determine the fate of the Constitution, not your local Sheriff!

[freewoman]

Same old, same old.  This forum, as with other internet forums, is voluntary.  You abide by the terms of agreement, you may stay. 

This is a grim testimony to the effectiveness of the fascist efforts to program and divide and conquer the Oath Keepers. We still have a Constitution and a First Amendment the last time I checked. Beyond that, we have a God-given right to express our thoughts and knowledge to others we think might find them of value.

A "fascist" combines government and corporate power to serve the interests of the state.  Not much of that being advocated here.  Your use of inflammatory terminology will get you nowhere.

As for dividing Oath Keepers--you're the one trying to divide here, not the OK leadership.

Your God-given right to express your thoughts ends when you aggress toward others.  It's called the Zero-Aggression Principle.  Maybe you might try it out sometime.

I'm sure you will say that the admins have shown aggression toward you.  I will point out that you were warned several times that you were violating the Terms of Agreement and the spirit of Oath Keepers, and that the admins showed considerable forebearance in your case.  It appears to have been for naught.

The "senior members and moderators" are "fearful", "an integral part of the evil, and sheer mindlessness"?  Oh, please.  You have shown over and over again your own mindlessness.  You have refused to accept anyone's view but your own.  That, my friend, is mindless.  Because no one individual has all the answers.

As to the importance of the local sheriff, I disagree.  But then, you won't listen to anything anyone has to say, anyway.  Because you're right, and we're wrong.

[Scarmiglione']

I'm going to go out on a limb, Oxi, and state that coming out of the penalty box spitting at the referees may not be the best way to stay in the game.

[ZooT_aLLures]

What happened to my 1st Amendment rights on this forum?

You're on private property there....................you don't have any first amendment rights................you have posting priviledges granted by the owners of this property.........and there's a difference......
I don't have first amendment rights here...................I have posting "priviledges"..............and nothing more
The only "right" you have here, is the right to redress and to remove your own content........ it's spelled out in simple words in the TOS................and you've already had your redress..............you alerted Bill that your 14 days was over............I went and dug up the thread, and yes indeed Elias said 14 days.......I posted the thread in the back room so the other moderators could see it, and that Elias specified 14 days........and you got reinstated.............

Had Elias not specified 14 days, you'd still be gone...........Now....................it's up to you guy..................where do you want to take this?

[Carl Bussjaeger]

What happened to my 1st Amendment rights on this forum?

Nothing. The First Amendment protects your speech against government restrictions; it does not entitle you to totally unfettered use of a soap box bought with someone else's money. If you don't like the remarkably mild restrictions by which the owners ask you to abide, buy your own soap box; go start your own forum with your own rules. As is, you are committing the Internet equivalent of going to a private shooting range and insisting on your right to ignore the range master's instructions to keep the muzzle aimed down range, blowing out the shop windows, and complaining that your Second Amendment rights are being violated when asked to leave.

[Mr. Dare]

Working with local Sheriff's will not cut it, you need generals from the National Guard and even in the federal army if your going to have success.  You need them to cross the lines because they command the firepower unlike local Sheriff's that will be forced to surrender or be removed...

Men commanding tanks, helicopters, fighters and naval ships will determine the fate of the Constitution, not your local Sheriff!

   Oxi, you have every right to your opinions, but statements like this are tantamount to advocating the violent overthrow of the government. That could be a criminal offense these days, and certainly violates the spirit of Oath Keepers, TMM (which is not the same thing as Oath Keepers btw) and the letter of the Terms of Service you agreed to when you signed up here. Short and sweet, KNOCK IT OFF! This is without a doubt the last batch of warnings you will get.

[oxi]

You're on private property

Private property, where?  You pay taxes right on property?  That means your simply renting it, the government owns it and that's why you pay taxes on it...  If you do not pay any property taxes then you own 100% of it, be careful about debating "private" property because you really do not own squat!

you don't have any first amendment rights

Ofcourse, you guys do not respect the Constitution!

I don't have first amendment rights here...................I have posting "priviledges"..............and nothing more

You guys uphold the oath but cannot even honor one of the biggest Amendments, the 1st one...

[oxi]

Oxi, you have every right to your opinions, but statements like this are tantamount to advocating the violent overthrow of the government. That could be a criminal offense these days

So I don't have a right to my opinions is what you are saying...

Wow, we live in a parnoid society that fears their own government, how pathetic!  Bush has spooked you guys into submission and fear, exactly what they wanted to achieve with post 9/11...

It's a criminal offense to violate the Constitution, but nobody seems to give a dam about that!!! 

By the way I stand correct, if you really want those in power to respect the oath, it starts with the armed forces of every state and federal, you know the ones violating their oaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.  You need to be worried about their intentions and plans because if they violate their oaths today, they will violate them tomorrow and run over the little Sheriff's all across the nation and then what?

Sheriff's do not control tanks, fighters and warships, they control some squad cars and a few guns, maybe some small boats, and when the federal government comes marching in with their federal troops to do as they please because their is no accountability with the federal government, they do as they please, so naturally your local Sheriff will be under their command and orders or they will be arrested or worse killed because soldiers follow orders, they do not give a dam about rules and laws or even oaths as evident with Iraq and Afghanistan...

Then what?

[Klapton Isgod]

Maybe you can understand this version of "private property."

Who is PAYING for these forums?  Hint:  It's not you nor me nor the taxpayers.  The person who is paying for it gets to make the rules.  Kinda like my dad got to make the rules in "his house" because he was the guy paying the mortgage, even though he technically didn't "own" the house.  And he would often tell me, "Whey you pay the bills, then you can make the rules."

Get it now?  You aren't paying the bills, you don't get to make the rules.  You are a guest here.  A very rude and disrespectful one at this point.

You are welcome to go set up and pay for your own forums where you get to make the rules.  Or you can have none at all if you like.  There is actually another forum out there in cyberspace that was founded by some folks who weren't happy with the rules here, so they went and made a forum of there own that has almost no rules at all.  Including no rules against making annoying people feel VERY unwelcome.  They don't bend over BACKWARD like people have been doing here to keep you around.

It seems that we are trying harder than you are to keep you here.  That by itself says a whole lot.  You are welcome to grow the hell up at any time though.  We'd all be very happy if you did.

[oxi]

Bigger picture, strategic thinking, your local Sheriff will be powerless in the face of a federal army that will not care about any oaths... they do not even recognize the Constitution anymore by their constant violations, so in reality the federal army serves the politicians not the nation.  They answer to a dictator electoral college president that has no accountability for their actions and decisions by a Congress that keeps on chewing whatever their campaign contributors tell them to do and so forth...

So set your mine fields now and sniper positions and you just might make it before they call in the air strikes to wipe your community down if you do not comply to their command...

[Mr. Dare]

   Oxi, What exactly are you proposing then? We offered Oath Keepers space on our forum to discuss ideas and to spread what we see as a constructive message to anyone who is willing listen with an open mind. You seem to think that it is necessary to exercise military force in order to achieve freedom. I assure you that military force is exactly the opposite of freedom. Whether you use it or somebody else does it, the end result is the same. People die, and those who live are not free. The initiation of force is the essence of fascism. If you advocate anything like it, you are not welcome here. You have had ample opportunity to express your ideas, and I think I am understanding you. If I do, then I disagree most emphatically and am asking you to leave and stop using our forum to spread a message of power mongering and violence. That is not the way to freedom. If you persist, I consider the staff of this forum well within it's rights to revoke your posting privileges permanently. You can exercise you first amendment rights on someone else's dime, but not ours.