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Author Topic: Conspiracy Theory  (Read 48909 times)

billy-jay

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #315 on: June 16, 2005, 04:40:14 am »

Thus spake Debra:

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Locking. No explanation required, I think. Those still interested in debating may switch to email or PMs.

I thought she was just trying to head off a potentially nasty argument that really had no point.  But that's just me.

FWIW, I'm pretty much with Thunder on that one.  OTOH, I find it useful to observe that if there is a conspiracy, how different would things be?  My guess:  not much.
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Bill St. Clair

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #316 on: June 16, 2005, 07:01:07 am »

Too many personal attacks is what I saw. A natural reason to close a thread.
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Thunder

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #317 on: June 16, 2005, 07:31:06 am »

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Too many personal attacks is what I saw. A natural reason to close a thread.
Agreed.  Elias and I both realized that we were heading in that direction and backed off a bit out of respect for each other and for this board.  Then, someone else thought it would be a good idea to start them back up and I snapped.  Granted, my post was still a bit subdued (you should've seen what I deleted!  :lol: )  

No matter.

But I did realize that those that believe in conspiracy theories have a pre-conceived notion of what they want the outcome to be: government did it!  This is no different than Bush having the intelligence fit his pre-conceived desire to attack Iraq.

The proper way to investigate any situation is to try to understand what happened and not to automatically assume that the government did it.  If you do that, your mind is already made-up and you wind up trying to get everything to fit that pre-conceived notion.  And that doesn't do anyone any good.  You wind up looking foolish and wasting a lot of time chasing wild geese, unless you enjoy that sort of thing.  If so, have at it and have fun!  There are worse hobbies one could have.

A lot of the things that are mentioned in conspiracy theories are fact.  The problem is where they go off the deep end and start forcing the dots to connect to what their pre-conceived notion is.

If sticking to sound investigative theory and facts makes me hard-headed, so be it.  I've been called worse.

I used to believe that there was a gunman on the grassy knoll that shot JFK.  It just didn't appear to make sense to me that his head would fly backwards if he was shot from the rear.  Then I got a physics/ballistics lesson and understand what actually happens when something is shot.  Now, I know that the shots came from LHO or, at least, from that direction.

I'm more than willing to change my ideas about what happens in a particular event, but you've got to prove it.  I'm not going to just accept your word.  I'd advise you to take the same tact.

We are all in agreement that the government is criminal and not out for the nation's interests.  I guess we'll also have to be in agreement that we aren't going to change each others minds concerning conspiracy theories.
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Thunder[/color][/font]



There are times, sir, when men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders.  -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

Wars will cease when people start loving their children more than they love the government.

People use the term 'chaos' only when they can't see far enough to view the big picture.   -Deepak Chopra

There are no illegal guns, only illegal gun laws.

T.H.E. Cat

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #318 on: June 16, 2005, 07:44:38 am »

Perhaps we should all take a lesson from Gill Grisom from CSI - "I go were the evidence leads me."  ;)

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Delos

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #319 on: June 16, 2005, 08:16:52 am »


Elias,

I don't understand why asking civil questions should piss off debra.

Thunder,

Please enlighten the rest of us about your sources for the revision of the natural properties of physics and ballistics, which proves the visual evidence in the JFK shooting shows the bullets to have come from the rear. Thanks in advance. (By extension, you are a proponent of the "magic bullet" theory, correct?)

You assert that folks like me bend everything to the conclusion that "government did it." It would seem that, in fact, your foregone conclusion in all these cases is that "government couldn't possibly have done it."
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Thunder

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #320 on: June 16, 2005, 08:50:39 am »

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I don't understand why asking civil questions should piss off debra.
That's because you have a tendency to not just ask civil questions, Delos.  You make what can be misconstrued to be personal attacks.  Calling someone a 'government apologist' and other such attacks aren't exactly what one would call 'friendly jabs'.  Yesterdays were not the first ones you've made towards me.  I chose to ignore them in the past and take the high road.  Yesterday, I didn't and I responded to them.  The back and forth of the attacks was why she shut down the thread.  Obviously, it could have escalated to something much worse and she chose to nip it in the bud, so to speak.  Elias and I had previously started to make some attacks on each other and out of respect for each other and the board, we both backed off.  We didn't want to create any animosity towards each other over a simple disagreement.

Let's just keep it civil and try to be mindful of possible misinterpretation of our posts?  K?

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Please enlighten the rest of us about your sources for the revision of the natural properties of physics and ballistics, which proves the visual evidence in the JFK shooting shows the bullets to have come from the rear. Thanks in advance. (By extension, you are a proponent of the "magic bullet" theory, correct?)

When a bullet hits a soft object, in this case it was JFK, it makes a small bullet-sized hole.  It then proceeds to travel through the object and exit the far end.  As it exits, large amounts of matter exit with it, creating a jet-like effect blowing the head backwards towards the shooter.  In order for his head to move forward like I originally had thought it should have done, the bullet would have to have stayed within his head and transferred all of its energy to the target.  (You actually want the energy to be transferred to the target as that's what causes the most damage.)  The bullet did not do this, it just pierced straight on through.  If you have some relatively soft head-shaped items (like a melon or something similar) and a rifle, you can recreate this phenomenon yourself.

Now, having explained that, let me get to the "magic bullet" theory.  

Those that argue that the bullet made all of these twists and turns are making a mistake when they try to recreate the seating arrangement in the vehicle.  Sen. Connelly was NOT sitting directly in front of JFK when the shots were fired.  He was actually sitting more towards the center of the car.  If you take a close look at the films of the event, you'll notice this.  If the "magic bullet" theorists move the representation of Sen. Connelly towards the center of the vehicle like he was in real life, the bullet no longer makes all of these crazy twists and turns.

See?  Simple.  No revision of physics, just paying attention to physics in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 09:03:00 am by Thunder »
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Thunder[/color][/font]



There are times, sir, when men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders.  -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

Wars will cease when people start loving their children more than they love the government.

People use the term 'chaos' only when they can't see far enough to view the big picture.   -Deepak Chopra

There are no illegal guns, only illegal gun laws.

Harleqwin

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #321 on: June 16, 2005, 01:03:52 pm »

Quote

Quote
Please enlighten the rest of us about your sources for the revision of the natural properties of physics and ballistics, which proves the visual evidence in the JFK shooting shows the bullets to have come from the rear. Thanks in advance. (By extension, you are a proponent of the "magic bullet" theory, correct?)

When a bullet hits a soft object, in this case it was JFK, it makes a small bullet-sized hole.  It then proceeds to travel through the object and exit the far end.  As it exits, large amounts of matter exit with it, creating a jet-like effect blowing the head backwards towards the shooter.  In order for his head to move forward like I originally had thought it should have done, the bullet would have to have stayed within his head and transferred all of its energy to the target.  (You actually want the energy to be transferred to the target as that's what causes the most damage.)  The bullet did not do this, it just pierced straight on through.  If you have some relatively soft head-shaped items (like a melon or something similar) and a rifle, you can recreate this phenomenon yourself.
...
See?  Simple.  No revision of physics, just paying attention to physics in the first place.
Should that bullet, the one that hit JFK's head have been found in the car?  or at least made a hole in the windshield?  I believe that given it's trajectory from 6th floor on down, following the same trajectory as the "magic bullet" it would HAVE to end up in the car somehow, or left evidence of it's passage thru whatever part of the car it hit.

I know it's hard to try and explain why a peice of evidence was NOT found; but by the same token; how fast did the APB go out for Lee Harvey Oswald?  So the gov "knew" he did it rather fast; but just kinda missed one of the two bullets that hit the president.
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Thunder

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #322 on: June 16, 2005, 01:09:54 pm »

Harleqwin, I wish I could answer that.  I'm not an expert on ANY conspiracy and I honestly don't know enough about the aspect you mentioned to be able to comment.

I just comment on what I DO know about.  Hopefully, someone on here may be able to answer your question.
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Thunder[/color][/font]



There are times, sir, when men of good conscience cannot blindly follow orders.  -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard

Wars will cease when people start loving their children more than they love the government.

People use the term 'chaos' only when they can't see far enough to view the big picture.   -Deepak Chopra

There are no illegal guns, only illegal gun laws.

debra

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #323 on: June 16, 2005, 02:01:43 pm »

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Debra, please tell me, why did you lock that thread?
Because of the sarcasm, name-calling and other personal attacks. The thread was going downhill, fast, and I've already lost one friend as a result of a violent discussion on this forum. I don't intend to let things devolve to that point again.

I will make it more clear in the future why I lock a thread. I'd prefer not having to make specific quotes, because I don't like singling people out.

Debra
 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 02:06:36 pm by debra »
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debra

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #324 on: June 16, 2005, 02:27:16 pm »

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Perhaps we should all take a lesson from Gill Grisom from CSI - "I go were the evidence leads me."  ;)

Cat
[ begin thread-jacking ]

God, I love that show.

Anyone who knows me can't figure out why I'm addicted to a "cop show". I'm not -- I loathe cop shows*. But CSI (the original) is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, for exactly the reason you state.  They follow the rules, follow the evidence, let the jury decide. No glorification of "the cop who breaks the rules to get the job done" bullshit.

A few times they had episodes where someone (a cop, a CSI, whomever) tried to "force" the evidence, or planted it, and the conclusion was that the cop/csi was in the wrong. They've let people go free who were "obviously" guilty, because they didn't have the evidence they needed. And they let promising suspects go because the evidence said they didn't do it. The split second someone says "I want a lawyer," they stop questioning. They get warrants, and they only look at the stuff the warrant says they can look at. If they don't get a warrant (as in one episode), the evidence gets tossed.

CSI is how the so-called justice system is supposed to work. Too bad it's not like that in the real world.

* I'm in Vegas for business right now, and every day I have to pass a billboard advertising "The Closer" (never seen it). The tag line? "YOU LOOK GUILTY".  WTF?????   :huh:

[ end thread-jacking ]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 02:36:04 pm by debra »
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #325 on: June 16, 2005, 03:08:01 pm »

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The proper way to investigate any situation is to try to understand what happened and not to automatically assume that the government did it.  If you do that, your mind is already made-up and you wind up trying to get everything to fit that pre-conceived notion.  And that doesn't do anyone any good.  You wind up looking foolish and wasting a lot of time chasing wild geese, unless you enjoy that sort of thing.  If so, have at it and have fun!  There are worse hobbies one could have.
Since I'm addressing this prior to reading the rest of this thread, I'm not sure if this has been addressed. I'm wondering why you presume this? Are you making the same error of which you accuse conspiracy theorists here, automatically assuming that "all" conspiracy theorists evaluate the evidence from the skewed perspective of a preconceived idea that "government did it?" "If you do that, your mind is already made-up and you wind up trying to get everything to fit that pre-conceived notion."  B)  
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RagnarDanneskjold

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« Reply #326 on: June 16, 2005, 03:14:57 pm »

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When a bullet hits a soft object, in this case it was JFK, it makes a small bullet-sized hole.  It then proceeds to travel through the object and exit the far end.  As it exits, large amounts of matter exit with it, creating a jet-like effect blowing the head backwards towards the shooter.
Begging your pardon here, but wasn't it the entire back of JFK's head which blew out, splattered all over the trunk lid, and Jackie appeared to be chasing aound on the trunk lid, gathering it up (although some allege she was attempting to escape the car, because she saw the driver shoot JFK, but she has never verified that so it is speculation)? If the shot came from the rear, why would not the front of his head have blown off?
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The Mayor is the Problem
The flagpole is the answer
We hung the first one
We can hang another one

The Firesign Theatre - from the album Boom Dot Bust

Dear Government
You are a ass shit.

A note from my younger son when he was 3.

When rights are outlawed, only outlaws will have rights. - Me


Round up everybody who can ride a horse or pull a trigger. Let's break out some Winchesters.  - John Wayne (Chisum)

Delos

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #327 on: June 16, 2005, 11:04:59 pm »


mkay

Sorry for living!

Apparently, reiterating something a poster said is considered a personal attack on these boards.

Henceforth, I will restrain myself from posting here so I don't offend anyone at what apparently have become supersensitive boards.

Have a free day!
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #328 on: June 16, 2005, 11:21:11 pm »

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Henceforth, I will restrain myself from posting here so I don't offend anyone at what apparently have become supersensitive boards.
ouch oooo ow ow ow ouch
my supersensitive self takes offense with that

Sooooooo, please don't restrain from posting here. It hoits my supersensitive-abilitie-ments
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The Mayor is the Problem
The flagpole is the answer
We hung the first one
We can hang another one

The Firesign Theatre - from the album Boom Dot Bust

Dear Government
You are a ass shit.

A note from my younger son when he was 3.

When rights are outlawed, only outlaws will have rights. - Me


Round up everybody who can ride a horse or pull a trigger. Let's break out some Winchesters.  - John Wayne (Chisum)

UnstructuredAgain

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Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #329 on: June 18, 2005, 01:05:38 am »

C'mon' everybody.
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