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[dogsledder54]

Scarmig's Law?  Not in the wiki, Educate me?

I'm paraphrasing  now, but I believe it is "Smash a guitar, go to JAIL.".  ;-]

[padre29]

As for "Believe or you are going to HELL!!!!!!

I've always found that to be the most curious complaint, "if" there is no Deity, then there is no "hell", whomever says that may as well say "repent or you are going to Disneyworld for all eternity"...

  To a committed atheist, the threat of hell is indeed meaningless. But the threat of Disneyland might not be so bad.

OTOH, to somebody who's seeking answers and believes in the possibility of a deity, it's a cruel threat. It's also a very arrogant statement. Anybody who claims to know for sure that he's going to heaven and those who simply disagree with him are going to get the worst sort of punishment, forever and ever, world without end, amen, could be said to be suffering from a severe case of pride. And we all know what pride "goeth before."

With that Claire, I believe there is a gentle meeting of the wills to be made, those who look for a Creator and those who are certain they "know" one.

Let me ask you, or anyone who cares to respond, assuming there is a Deity/Creator, what does one suppose they would have mankind say or do?

[suijurisfreeman]

If there is a 'creator'/deity/god why should we assume that human beings mean diddly-squat to said 'creator'/deity/god?  In my opinion we (human beings) are a fly-speck of shit on a gnats ass in the over-all scheme of things in this universe.

[Claire]

Let me ask you, or anyone who cares to respond, assuming there is a Deity/Creator, what does one suppose they would have mankind say or do?

Suijurisfreeman said it pretty well for me. When I think of the vastness and strangeness of the universe, I can -- at best -- think that humans are nothing to any creator but stuff growing in a cosmic petri dish in a giant scientific experiment. More likely, we're even less significant than that.

WHY would an unimaginable creature (or committee of creatures, as I sometimes think) who created billions of galaxies billions of years ago even notice a little byblow that appeared a few thousand years ago on one tiny planet in one obscure corner of the universe -- let alone want to have personal relationships with those infinitely insignificant creatures or want to punish us for our interactions with each other?

Being that I'm still a seeker and still consider the possibility of deities, I sometimes imagine a localized god -- a fifth-assistant sub-god, if you will, keeping tabs on earth. But that's about as close as I can come to imagining why a deity would even notice us, let alone give us orders.

[freewoman]

I'm in the "spiritual but not religious" category, and am leaning toward the clockmaker idea.  There may have been a Source, or Prime Creator, that at some point wound it all up and let 'er fly.  But I'm not sure he/she/it has anything to do with us out here in the back 40.  In other words, I might be willing to accept a creator god/dess/being, but not necessarily one who is personally involved in the lives of his/her/its creation.

Jesus said "the kingdom of God is within you".  Several spiritual belief systems speak of the "divine spark", or "divine seed", within humans.  It's possible that we have the potential to experience "god" all on our own, within ourselves.  In some ways, this is a secular humanist sort of argument.  I see it as an individualist position.  I choose to believe certain things about myself as an individual.  No connection to any religious system necessary.  This also allows me to let others find their own truth, because my truth isn't dependent upon anyone else agreeing with me.  It also lets me take my time to evolve, and to change my mind if necessary (as I receive new data), because neither is my truth dependent upon what anyone else thinks.  I am the arbiter of my own spirituality, my own thoughts, my own decisions.  I am responsible for the consequences of my actions, and I create my own ideas.

However, I would say that if there is such a thing as God (or Goddess), as in a supreme being, he/she/it would not be definable by human standards.  Humans have a tendency to define God as some sort of super-human, which is very limiting and puts God in a box of human creation.

[Silver]

Giving orders is what governments do, and when religions start giving orders, it is generally in the service of the state, not their god.

I've long struggled with the notion that if there is a god, it requires weekly acts of obeisance, observance of various rituals, etc.  Being honest and not hurting others is one thing, avoiding certain foods, attending weekly rituals (no matter what they are called), wearing certain clothing, it's a bit much.

An all-powerful, all-knowing being that requires such constant kow-towing by its vastly inferior creations strikes me as rather pathetic.  I get the image of a spoiled child-god who is teasing the pets while the parents aren't paying attention.

If it pleases Christians or Muslims or Jews to perform certain rituals to reinforce their faith, good for them.  But the number of people I've met who actually practice the rather plainly stated teachings of Christ can be counted on one hand.  The overwhelming majority not only ignore the beam in their own eye, but jump right to telling me that I'll be damned for not observing their rituals.

It would be funny if so many people weren't killed because of it.

Peace,

Silver

[MamaLiberty]

I am the arbiter of my own spirituality, my own thoughts, my own decisions.  I am responsible for the consequences of my actions, and I create my own ideas.

Indeed, freewoman.

But consider this... the creator of the unimaginable universe, and every possible alternate universe, has the "capacity" to do absolutely anything whether we can imagine it or not. And that includes the capacity to care about each and every individual human being who ever lived.

Why is the limitless reach of the universe (or however many there might be) within the realm of possibility of the creator, but we decide to limit that creator to what we can imagine as possible in other things? Wow!

Those who choose not to seek that relationship are certainly free to do so. If we were NOT free to determine such things for ourselves, we would probably have been created very differently.

I choose, therefore I am free to choose... In order to be truly free, however, I must accept and cope with the natural consequence of my choices - even when the consequence is not clear before I choose. Lots of things in life work that way... 

[Claire]

An all-powerful, all-knowing being that requires such constant kow-towing by its vastly inferior creations strikes me as rather pathetic.  I get the image of a spoiled child-god who is teasing the pets while the parents aren't paying attention.

Yes. That, too.

It's certainly within the realm of possibility, as MamaLiberty says, that there could be a vast creator of this vast universe that had the capacity to care about, and even love, each creature in it.

If you believe that ... no argument. If you want me to believe that ... "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

It would actually be wonderful to believe in such a deity.

To then envision that deity issuing orders about whether we can flip light switches on Saturday or eat meat on Friday ... or especially to imagine that deity ordering us to slaughter all the men, women, children, and livestock of the tribe that lives over the hill ... that just doesn't mesh with the perception of such a vastly loving creator.

[ZooT_aLLures]

And on the 8th day, man recreated God in his own image, and imbued in this God all the virtues and vices of it's creators, thus that the creators might do as they will or do as they want with their own blessings......

A couple days later they got booted out of eden, or maybe they didn't, maybe eden just went away and turned into Iraq.............not for eating an "apple", and not for seeking knowledge, and not even for being disobedient, but for proclaiming themselves through their creation, to be God........and if God's they are.............well, then they're on their own..............and on their own they'll stay as long as they worship this God that they've created and imbued with all the virtues and vices of men................

[MamaLiberty]

To then envision that deity issuing orders about whether we can flip light switches on Saturday or eat meat on Friday ... or especially to imagine that deity ordering us to slaughter all the men, women, children, and livestock of the tribe that lives over the hill ... that just doesn't mesh with the perception of such a vastly loving creator.

Well, Claire, I have a warm and personal relationship with God (as I know him, of course) and I don't give any consideration to all those things you mention. They are not in any way what my God expects from me. Knowing HIM, it is clear to me that none of those things come from HIM, or are compatible with his nature.

His command, which I believe is universal, is to love our neighbor as ourself, not to initiate force or fraud against anyone, and to be responsible for our own lives and choices. I create my own immediate and painful hell, right here and now, whenever I neglect or ignore those things.

I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, or mediate it for me, or remind me to be "good." I have chosen this way, and walking in that way is the only place I find peace and joy. How could I ask for more from either God or myself?

[Claire]

To then envision that deity issuing orders about whether we can flip light switches on Saturday or eat meat on Friday ... or especially to imagine that deity ordering us to slaughter all the men, women, children, and livestock of the tribe that lives over the hill ... that just doesn't mesh with the perception of such a vastly loving creator.

Well, Claire, I have a warm and personal relationship with God (as I know him, of course) and I don't give any consideration to all those things you mention. They are not in any way what my God expects from me. Knowing HIM, it is clear to me that none of those things come from HIM, or are compatible with his nature.

It must be great to be completely confident that you have the love and philosophical support of a benevolent deity. I envy that, truly.

But when I've sought personal contact with God, nothing even remotely godlike has ever answered. And believe me, I've tried for many years, in many ways.

As you know, I can find truth only in two ways: one is by obtaining solid facts and data; the other is by experiencing something for myself.

If there's a God out there who has personal relationships with you or others on these forums, more power to you. But he has simply never wanted to have one with me.

[freewoman]

To then envision that deity issuing orders about whether we can flip light switches on Saturday or eat meat on Friday ... or especially to imagine that deity ordering us to slaughter all the men, women, children, and livestock of the tribe that lives over the hill ... that just doesn't mesh with the perception of such a vastly loving creator.

Well, Claire, I have a warm and personal relationship with God (as I know him, of course) and I don't give any consideration to all those things you mention. They are not in any way what my God expects from me. Knowing HIM, it is clear to me that none of those things come from HIM, or are compatible with his nature.

His command, which I believe is universal, is to love our neighbor as ourself, not to initiate force or fraud against anyone, and to be responsible for our own lives and choices. I create my own immediate and painful hell, right here and now, whenever I neglect or ignore those things.

I don't need anyone to interpret it for me, or mediate it for me, or remind me to be "good." I have chosen this way, and walking in that way is the only place I find peace and joy. How could I ask for more from either God or myself?

Of course, you couldn't ask more from God or yourself.  Your lovely expression of personal faith is all one could properly ask, because it expresses your truth as you understand it, right now.   However, in a way, you're proving what several of us have said in this thread!  Because many people who purport to believe in God do initiate force or fraud against others (often in the name of God); they refuse to be responsible for their own lives (claiming to have been influenced by the devil or other external entity instead of facing their own issues); they regularly condemn to hell the people they claim to love; they interpret God's word (whether written or inferred) for others, and insist that a mediator is necessary; they remind others to be good, often conveniently forgetting to follow that way themselves.  I am able to write "many" here because I was one of those folks.  And I spent a long time hanging around those folks, in a variety of leadership positions.  I know whereof I speak.

If every individual who claimed to believe in God followed a similar set of guidelines in their pursuit of faith, dear friend MamaLiberty, this world would be a very different place. 

[MamaLiberty]

I understand exquisitely the oppression and irrational behavior of so many "christians," among many others. I was raised in "the church" and spent years as a Carmelite nun. I came to my relationship with God through the very valley of the shadow of death. That path was long, hard and sometimes brutal.

I wish I could share the peace and joy I've found, but it seems to be a journey that each one must make for themselves. Sort of like understanding liberty, justice and self ownership. We each come to it in our own way and time... if ever.

I found it when I stopped dictating the terms, stopped letting others dictate them, stopped caring what other people thought and did about it... and just lived the principles.

[padre29]

If there is a 'creator'/deity/god why should we assume that human beings mean diddly-squat to said 'creator'/deity/god?  In my opinion we (human beings) are a fly-speck of shit on a gnats ass in the over-all scheme of things in this universe.

Really? So "man" may as well be featherless chickens, there is nothing special nor inherent about mankind nor can their be anything along the lines "inalienable" anything, just power and it's application.

[Jarel]

I seem to have generated quite a stir with my posts on this subject, so first off let me say that my purpose was not to generate any ill feeling amongst Christians of good heart, rather to (in one case) show the true nature of a particular church and its power players. In another it was to illustrate what I believe to be a major inconsistency in one man's argument, and his particular arrogance, and the weapon which the Bible can be when used by disingenuous people. I stand behind the things I said in those posts within the confines of that clarity. Of irony is that, since the process of social "purification" is the brainchild of the triad of Catholic/Jewish/Islamic heads of faith, and we are still, in this age, embroiled in "holy war". How it is that anyone still wants to be a proud member of any of these organizations is beyond me; reverence of all life is one of the basic tenets of religion, yet otherwise good Christians are killing Muslims for Christ, and hating Jews for Christ, and so on, back and forth.  The concept of choice figures heavily here, as no one actually makes anyone go to war, and we all choose what's salient in our decisionmaking. And it does say, "Thou shalt not kill" without any mitigating factors like "unless your President tells you to".
I, too, am in the category of 'spiritual not religious'. I work every day to make relationships better, to do the right thing when it's not as easy, to be honest with myself and others when it's not as easy, and to love. That is the root of my problem, if any, with the God-concept: that so many individual views of God are inherently overbearing, jealous, and just plain mean. But that goes back to the church role in developing the concept; if there is a Creator, I'm pretty sure he's pissed at the College of Cardinals.
"His command, which I believe is universal, is to love our neighbor as ourself, not to initiate force or fraud against anyone, and to be responsible for our own lives and choices. I create my own immediate and painful hell, right here and now, whenever I neglect or ignore those things."--ML

Again, sorry for any undue strain; I could use a little refining with the timbre of my message, and I will try to be less absolutist and bald in the future.
Really interesting posts on this sub, by the way. Very thought-provoking