Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[padre29]

Well, I've noticed a bit of a subtext in a couple of threads that involve Religion one way or another, as well as two camps forming that include A)Religion enslaves or Anti Religious Screed


To me the two go hand in hand, a Creator endows Individuals Rights far more than any sort of enumerated ones, and whether the Individual chooses to recognize a Creator or not.

Which sort of dovetails nicely into a question about why Atheists make their views known far more than the most fervent Evangelical ever would...

A digression, however what makes Faith and Freedom either hostile to one another, or indeed, partners?

[gaurdduck]

Without a creator we wouldn't be having such a conversation.

  The way I see it is; Religions aren't anti-freedom, but there are
those who would pretend to be priests, preachers and prophets
for their own gain. Such people are tyrant wannabes. Usually they
are the dreksachs that claim that obedience is key to _________
(insert pleasant outcome here). Usually they claim that obedience
is owed to themselves, the religious organization to wich they
belong, and (for the purpose of keeping from becoming another
Koresh) the government.

~GD

[securitysix]

I've come to the conclusion that Religion sucks.  Faith, however, is not the same thing as Religion.

I don't believe that Faith and Freedom are mutually exclusive.  I do believe that Religion and Freedom are, though.

[Rarick]

I will agree with that, faith does not require any sort of Priest, Church or other structure.  Faith is strictly between your self and your Faith.  Religion always seems to have a certain amount of judgement, which requires rules to break, which requires someone to decide the rules, which requires........

Too many religions look like a guiilt trip manipulation scheme for me to like.

[padre29]

Without a creator we wouldn't be having such a conversation.

  The way I see it is; Religions aren't anti-freedom, but there are
those who would pretend to be priests, preachers and prophets
for their own gain. Such people are tyrant wannabes. Usually they
are the dreksachs that claim that obedience is key to _________
(insert pleasant outcome here). Usually they claim that obedience
is owed to themselves, the religious organization to wich they
belong, and (for the purpose of keeping from becoming another
Koresh) the government.

~GD

Well, in Christianity, in classical Christianity, a separate culture existed outside of "Govt" of course mankind is addicted to even self destructive Order and it grew into Hierarchies.




A faith, or indeed, non Faith, that recognizes and supports the concept of Natural Rights would be a boon to freedom.

[canadian]

I've come to the conclusion that Religion sucks.  Faith, however, is not the same thing as Religion.

I don't believe that Faith and Freedom are mutually exclusive.  I do believe that Religion and Freedom are, though.

This. Any time you allow someone else to tell you what God is, you are surrendering your free will.

[Claire]

I will agree with that, faith does not require any sort of Priest, Church or other structure.  Faith is strictly between your self and your Faith.  Religion always seems to have a certain amount of judgement, which requires rules to break, which requires someone to decide the rules, which requires........

Too many religions look like a guiilt trip manipulation scheme for me to like.

Yeah. What Rarick said. Spirituality, which is inner-driven, can (though obviously doesn't always) lead to individual freedom.

Religion -- which is always a set of beliefs imposed by other humans -- merely teaches that morality comes from outside and that one needs only to be "good" because those outside forces can punish.

Sorry, my Christian friends, but I've always perceived Christianity to be among the most authoritarian religions (next, perhaps, to Islam). I know some people say that by worshipping G*d, they resist worshipping the state. But to me, once you've learned to bow the knee to one outside authority figure, you've learned to bow the knee to authority figures, period. IMHO it's a bad habit of mind, no matter where you place your unquestioning loyalties.

I'm not opposed to G*d, though if the Christian G*d exists, he appears opposed to freedom. I'm only opposed to the concept that honor and truth, ethics and morality, can be dictated from outside. And the concept that threats and punishments are the only things that can get people to "behave." Those are the two concepts on which every state is built.

I've been told, more than once, by Christians that I can't possibly believe in freedom if I don't believe in their god. That's so mind-bogglingly offensive and authoritarian and so utterly opposite of my personal experience that I can't wrap my mind around it.

I know that more open-minded Christians (of whom there are many on these forums) will say that every outrage committed in the name of Christ is just an outrage committed by flawed or bigoted human beings using Christ as an excuse. But that's the very point: religion has always, and will always, give people an excuse for doing evil, both big and small.

[Claire]

Which sort of dovetails nicely into a question about why Atheists make their views known far more than the most fervent Evangelical ever would...

There certainly are noisy & obnoxious atheists. No doubt about it.

But making their views known far more than the most fervent Evangelist???

I've never had an atheist come to my door bearing pamphlets.

I've never been stopped on the street by an atheist peddling his non-religion.

I've never had an atheist threaten me with eternal punishment for not believing him.

I've never had atheist neighbors constantly invite me to events that will "change my life," even after I've said repeatedly that I'm not interested.

I've never had a complete stranger atheist grab me at the door of a public building, first to speak of love, then to threaten me when I didn't agree.

I've never had an atheist insist on giving me atheist lessons simply because I accepted a dinner invitation to his house.

When I've written on spirituality, I've never had 200 atheists send emails to argue with me.

I've never seen an atheist preaching on TV and conning people into sending him millions of dollars.

Goes without saying that I've had every one of these experiences (sometimes multiple times) with Evangelicals.

[padre29]

Which sort of dovetails nicely into a question about why Atheists make their views known far more than the most fervent Evangelical ever would...

There certainly are noisy & obnoxious atheists. No doubt about it.

But making their views known far more than the most fervent Evangelist???

I've never had an atheist come to my door bearing pamphlets.

I've never been stopped on the street by an atheist peddling his non-religion.

I've never had an atheist threaten me with eternal punishment for not believing him.

I've never had atheist neighbors constantly invite me to events that will "change my life," even after I've said repeatedly that I'm not interested.

I've never had a complete stranger atheist grab me at the door of a public building, first to speak of love, then to threaten me when I didn't agree.

I've never had an atheist insist on giving me atheist lessons simply because I accepted a dinner invitation to his house.

When I've written on spirituality, I've never had 200 atheists send emails to argue with me.

I've never seen an atheist preaching on TV and conning people into sending him millions of dollars.

Goes without saying that I've had every one of these experiences (sometimes multiple times) with Evangelicals.

They never miss a chance to share with the world their Atheism, from bumper stickers to internet forums you know pretty quickly were they stand and how they approach any topic that at all may involved Christianity.

Which is odd, but for whatever reason, Christianity seems to be their bugaboo, Islam or Hinduism or whatever, always receives a pass. Which is fine by me.

[padre29]

I will agree with that, faith does not require any sort of Priest, Church or other structure.  Faith is strictly between your self and your Faith.  Religion always seems to have a certain amount of judgement, which requires rules to break, which requires someone to decide the rules, which requires........

Too many religions look like a guiilt trip manipulation scheme for me to like.

Yeah. What Rarick said. Spirituality, which is inner-driven, can (though obviously doesn't always) lead to individual freedom.

Religion -- which is always a set of beliefs imposed by other humans -- merely teaches that morality comes from outside and that one needs only to be "good" because those outside forces can punish.

Sorry, my Christian friends, but I've always perceived Christianity to be among the most authoritarian religions (next, perhaps, to Islam). I know some people say that by worshipping G*d, they resist worshipping the state. But to me, once you've learned to bow the knee to one outside authority figure, you've learned to bow the knee to authority figures, period. IMHO it's a bad habit of mind, no matter where you place your unquestioning loyalties.

I'm not opposed to G*d, though if the Christian G*d exists, he appears opposed to freedom. I'm only opposed to the concept that honor and truth, ethics and morality, can be dictated from outside. And the concept that threats and punishments are the only things that can get people to "behave." Those are the two concepts on which every state is built.

I've been told, more than once, by Christians that I can't possibly believe in freedom if I don't believe in their god. That's so mind-bogglingly offensive and authoritarian and so utterly opposite of my personal experience that I can't wrap my mind around it.

I know that more open-minded Christians (of whom there are many on these forums) will say that every outrage committed in the name of Christ is just an outrage committed by flawed or bigoted human beings using Christ as an excuse. But that's the very point: religion has always, and will always, give people an excuse for doing evil, both big and small.

"I've been told by Christians that I cannot believe in freedom if I do not believe in God"

And I've been told lots of different things by some Atheists, there is a danger in making collective statements about a group of people, has every Christian you come across said that? Do you have some sort of percentage meter that keeps tabs on such things?

Let me add a bit to this, I'd love to hear some sort of spiritual basis for a freedom lovers point of view about "why" mankind is meant to be free, the concept of Natural Rights without a Creator is a bit like a meatless hamburger, but I'd truly like to hear "why" without a spiritual dimension that mankind is designed to be let alone.

For example, suppose Darwinisic Evolution is the actual mechanism that has brought us to where mankind is today, were the proto humans singular beings wandering a particularly savage environment? Or is it far more likely that even "back then" mankind traveled in groups with Hierarchies and Leaders and Followers?

[Claire]

They never miss a chance to share with the world their Atheism, from bumper stickers to internet forums you know pretty quickly were they stand and how they approach any topic that at all may involved Christianity.

Which is odd, but for whatever reason, Christianity seems to be their bugaboo, Islam or Hinduism or whatever, always receives a pass. Which is fine by me.

Well, I think you're making very broad statements about atheists. But I'll assume you mean only the vocal minority of atheists.

But I can see why, in the western world, Christianity would be an atheist's bugaboo. It's because Christianity in western culture is omnipresent and often pushed very, very hard (ala the actions I mentioned above). If those same atheists lived in Saudi Arabia ... well, they'd be quiet about it because it's a theocratic culture, but the target of their anti-theist rebellion would be islam. If those same atheists lived in India, they might well crusade against Shiva and Ganesh, who knows?

But my bet is that, wherever you find a proselytizing religion, you'll find atheists who especially target that religion. Here, it just happens to be Christianity.

I don't speak for atheists, though. I'm not one. This is just my assumption.

[Claire]

"I've been told by Christians that I cannot believe in freedom if I do not believe in God"

And I've been told lots of different things by some Atheists, there is a danger in making collective statements about a group of people, has every Christian you come across said that? Do you have some sort of percentage meter that keeps tabs on such things?

No. But I can say that while I know many, many, many kind, decent, open-hearted Christians (including many here), I've personally experienced more bigotry coming from people who call themselves Christians than from any other group.

I mean no judgment on all Christians. I'm not counting number of percentages. I'm just saying what I've personally observed.

OTOH, while I've heard plenty of dogmatism from atheists, I've never had one try to convert me or threaten me. Again, just my personal experience.

Let me add a bit to this, I'd love to hear some sort of spiritual basis for a freedom lovers point of view about "why" mankind is meant to be free, the concept of Natural Rights without a Creator is a bit like a meatless hamburger, but I'd truly like to hear "why" without a spiritual dimension that mankind is designed to be let alone.

Well, I don't know that we're "meant" to be free. But I do know that, with or without a creator (and on this subject, I simply don't know), humans need freedom in order to grow as individuals and progress as a group.

For example, suppose Darwinisic Evolution is the actual mechanism that has brought us to where mankind is today, were the proto humans singular beings wandering a particularly savage environment? Or is it far more likely that even "back then" mankind traveled in groups with Hierarchies and Leaders and Followers?

Oh, I expect it's true that humans have always had hierarchies, leaders, and followers. I believe that comes first from the family structure, where the infant must look up to seemingly all-powerful parents. Then that extends into the need of groups, tribes, etc.

I didn't blame Christianity for creating hierarchies or submissiveness to authority. I just said (and say) that I believe Christianity is one of the most authoritarian religions in the world, and that its authorities (both written and human) encourage the belief that morality comes from outside and that people only behave well under threat of punishment -- which is also the basis of the state.

But again, I know plenty of individual Christians for whom that's simply not their experience or their viewpoint. I speak only of the dogma, the organizations, the commands, the threats. But then, since I believe all human organizations that become institutionalized also become corrupt and authoritarian, that's no special slam against Christianity.

Christianity is just organized religion and organized religion bears all the flaws of humans. That's all.

[somedude]

Let me add a bit to this, I'd love to hear some sort of spiritual basis for a freedom lovers point of view about "why" mankind is meant to be free, the concept of Natural Rights without a Creator is a bit like a meatless hamburger, but I'd truly like to hear "why" without a spiritual dimension that mankind is designed to be let alone.

Freedom is a natural state of mankind's existence whether due to God, evolution, or both. We are obviously free to do good or evil. So I'm assuming you mean why be ethical or moral if no metaphysical overlord exists which can punish you for transgression. I can only respond that ethical consistency is a prerequisite to my own internal happiness. I lack sufficient data to know whether God or nature designed me that way, and his/her theoretical existence plays absolutely no part in my choice to treat others as I would like to be treated. I have very little respect for those who only behave honestly and decently out of some quest to curry the favor of a deity, or out of fear of his/her wrath. I also can't conceive of a God who doesn't feel the same way about such bootlicks (although I can conceive of superhuman despots that would want such devotion).

So to directly answer your query, men are thinking beings whose extistence is dependent on transforming thought into action and those non-violent creators (men not gods) need to be free from others that wish to control their actions (otherwise a very real hell is created on earth).

[suijurisfreeman]

The problem that I have with 'christians' is when they dogmatically state that that the bible is 'the word of god' or that god this or god that.  If they wish to state this is their opinion that's one thing, but to state it as if it is an absolute fact that's where I have a problem.
As I've posted many times on this forum, I made the 'mistake' of doing extensive research into the history of christianity and how we came to have the bible.  Based on that research I am absolutely convinced that the Jesus movement was high-jacked by the person known as Paul, the man Jesus was crucified for the crime of insurrection against Rome, that the Jewish man Jesus never considered himself divine, the new testament (actually the whole bible) is neither written by nor inspired by a being called god.
I personally don't care what others believe when it comes to religion, it's only when they try to make their beliefs into facts.  Believe what you want but don't try to cram it down my throat.
In my opinion christianity is a religion for slaves, it does not promote true freedom.  Religion (including christianity) has skipped hand in hand with 'government' down the road of tyranny throughout recorded history.  Religion seeks to control your mind just like government seeks to control your body.
If people would only do the research it would become obvious as to the historical facts concerning the origins of christianity and the bible.  It's the same with the historical facts as to how this country came to have the Constitution of 1787, if one actually does the research why in the world would they support said document?

[Radio Flyer]

They never miss a chance to share with the world their Atheism, from bumper stickers to internet forums you know pretty quickly were they stand and how they approach any topic that at all may involved Christianity.

Which is odd, but for whatever reason, Christianity seems to be their bugaboo, Islam or Hinduism or whatever, always receives a pass. Which is fine by me.

Padre29

I would think that you may not be paying much attention to the religious/political debates, currently atheists in Europe and Canada are risking their freedom against "religious hate speech laws" by protesting Islam and what is often mistakenly referred to as "Sharia law" but in practice is limiting free speech to the point that no person can "offend" another person via their religion... (using "Sharia law" as a political tool).

Our invasion in the US by outside forces that want their host country to chance (to a lessor version of itself) is similar to the invasion of Europe but the religious nature of that invasion of Europe adds a particular character to that invasion, both are parasitic in practice and in legal intent.

Christians should be happy for the freedom that atheist are currently risking jail for in Europe, or they can expect all hell to break loose with the implementation of "religious hate laws".

This is extremely dangerous and is an offshoot of all "hate speech laws" and the inevitable consequence.

I also would point out that you may also be falling into the trap of current political propaganda where the "religious right" in the US is used as a tool by the current crop of neocons and their complicit MSM whores (Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh, and O'Reilly) who know that dragging the "Jesus card" into the political arena they can bludgeon their competition with nonsense and "win by overwhelming volume and popular thinking" rather than logic.

Christianity as an organized religious system is capable of just as much pressure against freedom as any other religion, and in the past has proven quite adept at manipulation and even some of the most evil things men of power are capable over others.

Currently religion is used to again burn "witches" in Africa - a horrible practice that I would have no hesitation to provide copper coated lead for any I would find acting in that practice.

In less than a year after a major collapse I can guarantee that the burning of "witches" would become common even here in the US if the grip of logic is removed from religion.

Religion is inherently anti-freedom and in many ways far more dangerous than most understand, history backs this up with a clarity I cannot overstate.

Religion is a frighting and dangerous master, it is and should stay on the fringes, in fact it should be forced out of politics altogether - but as it is a powerful tool I expect it to continue to be used to control, manipulate and then bludgeon the public.