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Author Topic: Why or is Christianity or any Religion opposed to a Freedomista point of view?  (Read 176800 times)

Clip Johnson

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He's certainly correct that, if taken literally, the bible is full of commandments that instruct followers to agress against others -- and that to the extent that people follow those particular orders, they're opponents of freedom.

If they don't follow those commands, then of course we shouldn't consider them aggressors. But it's still creepy to live among people you know would like to stone you to death, if only society would give them permission to.


I really wasn't going to respond to this thread, as it can easily lead to misinterpretation, or getting someone else riled up. Which is something I personally don't much enjoy doing. For all political and religious ideals we all hold to are personal choices we each have made, or must eventually make, in regards to our own lives and futures.

Anyway, Claire, I'm not aware of a single Christian who holds this view (doesn't mean there aren't those who do, just my personal experience), but the fact remains (as I am certain that you are already abundantly aware of) that there will always be folks who seek to impose their will on others regardless of religious or political affiliation. But more importantly I would like to point out that God does not give, and has not given, such commandments, as you have referred to, that relates to our current time and/or society. The commandments given in the Bible regarding aggression towards others were historical facts and stories given to indicate God's justice during various ancient times.  They cannot , and should not be, construed to validate anyone's aggression towards any other living being.

According to God, the most important commandments given in the Bible are found in Matthew 22: 37-40; "Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Now I ask is it prudent to assume this is a bad thing for world to have folks in it who hold to this?


« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 05:52:04 pm by Clip Johnson »
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Clip Johnson

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And the following I am posting in response to many others here whom have indicated that Christians are, or can be, dangerous, stupid, misguided, wrong, or whatever else. These are my personal findings and experiences, which I know for a fact that there are many, many Christians who have similar experiences and testimonials.

To understand the reason why Christians worship Jesus, one must first come to terms with who exactly Jesus is and who He claimed Himself to be. But please forgive me if you feel this is a bunch of nonsense or whatever, but I sincerely believe this is something that many folks need to hear, for what's at stake here is more than whether or not you merely believe Christians through out the world are involved with a heresy, but what you feel to be true in regards to Jesus and the biblical doctrine concerning your personal salvation and where you will spend eternity. For if you are right and I am wrong about Him, then in the end you will have nothing to gain and I (and all other Christians) really will have nothing to lose, but if You are wrong and I am right about Jesus and where we will spend eternity, well, you will unfortunately have everything to lose and I will stand to gain everything. Furthermore, without a shadow of a doubt, God Himself wants you to hear this and learn as much as you can about Him and His promises. So here goes.

You see God does not want us to simply come to Him in a blind leap of faith. The fact is God created each and every one of us with a mind and we were created in His image. That image is not only represented within our spirit, but also represented within our body, within our thoughts, within our emotions within each and every one of us. And this image is to be used when seeking God. He wants us to check Him out and verify His truths. If this were not so He would not have told Moses at the burning bush various ways to prove to the Israelites that God did in fact send Moses to lead His people out from Egypt. God expected the Israelites to ask the intelligent question "How do we know that God sent you". Or in the book of Isaiah (40-48), God challenges the Israelites to examine every other God and then challenges these Gods to do what He does. And when Christ died, He stuck around for forty days in order to show Himself to others and prove to them what had taken place so as they would believe. God wants us to test and check out all the signs and all the evidence. Our Christian faith is faith that is real and is rational. And it is a faith that can be believed in, trusted in, and can be tested.

At this point I feel the need to make a case for the very existence of God. I suppose to start with, I should tell you my basis for all Scriptural truth is found in the Bible as well as many other resources available to all.

The simple fact is I once was agnostic and firmly believed that someone must prove to me God did in fact exist. I needed empirical, scientific proof of such, for all I considered His existence to be was merely nothing more than a fairy tale. My subsequent conclusion was that I must look further than my mere belief in science, and the information contained the Scriptures. So I began to explore with an open mind, I repeat, an open mind. Some of the things I soon discovered were that one could not empirically prove through scientific evidence that Abraham Lincoln was shot and killed at Ford Theater. One must rely on historical evidence and upon doing so; based upon the overwhelming support, there is no disputing that this incidence with President Lincoln actually happened. Most certainly, it is the very same concerning a search for the truth about Jesus and the Holy Scriptures.

When one objectively looks at the overwhelming amount of evidence to support the authenticity of the Bible, an individual can only come to the conclusion that the Bible is from God and Him alone. And that evidence for me lies in the fact that the Bible is shown to be reliable in five major ways: (1) textural transmission (the accuracy of the copying process down through history), (2) the conformation of the Old and New Testament by hard evidence uncovered through archaeology, (3) documentary evidence also uncovered through archaeology, (4) the internal evidence test of the New Testament, and (5) the external evidence test of the New Testament. Here are some facts that cannot be disputed, and not merely in my humble opinion. There are a multitude of reliable sources of antiquity other than the Bible for information concerning Jesus, i.e., Josephus, Polycarp, Roman Government archives, archeological evidence and many others. All of which I would implore you to find these sources on your own behalf and not simply take my word for it.

Some of the more compelling evidence in the Scriptures themselves can be found by looking at the prophetic fulfillment of the future Messiah mentioned over 300 times in various verses throughout the Old Testament, which were written hundreds of years before Christ. Given the study of statistics involving the theory and laws of mathematical probability, the fulfillment of these prophecies by any one person is astronomical. The combined probability against just 17 of these predictions occurring is equal to: 1 chance in 480 billion x 1 billion x 1 trillion or, 1 chance in 480,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Some Bible critics have suggested that Jesus of Nazareth, as a rabbi, naturally knew about these predictions and simply arranged the events of His life to fulfill these specific prophecies. But how would you arrange to be born in Bethlehem? How would you manage to be born into the tribe of Judah? How would you make sure that the price of your betrayal would be precisely thirty pieces of silver? How would you arrange to be crucified with thieves? How would a crucified man arrange to have his enemies gamble for his garments? The truth is that, if you could arrange all these details, you would have to be the Son of God.

Yes, I know some peoples rebuttal would suggest that men have written the Scriptures to conform to whatever they believed in and thus are propagating a lie. Once again, I would implore you to look at the vast amounts of copies of the writings of Moses, King David, Solomon, Ezra, Samuel, etc, etc, etc, that were pasted down from generation to generation through out Jewish culture. There are literally were thousands and thousands of these documents stored on whatever means were available such as papyrus. The fact is there are no books of antiquity that can be confirmed for their validity other that the Bible. The only other work remotely close would be that of Homer, and there aren't copies dating back far enough in time to substantiate whether or not it had been faithfully copied from original text. The Holy Scriptures are not so, check it out for yourself.

Second, look at First Corinthians 15. The thing to bear in mind is Paul didn’t initially write this as being Holy Scripture; it was a letter to the church at Corinth just about thirty years after Jesus’ death and ascension. And stated in it was that Jesus died and was buried then rose after three days then was seen by many. He included Peter and other disciples, 500 people and even some people in the crowd he was talking to knew of these things that took place. The fact is if anyone could attest to anything other than what Paul was saying, they would have certainly spoken up. There is no evidence of anyone ever doing so.

Furthermore, each and every one of the disciples of Jesus proclaimed through out the land what had happened and whom Jesus was, never once denying Him. All of this was after they had been emotionally crushed after Jesus was killed, After all how could the Messiah allow Himself to suffer a horrible death at the hands of men, yet they were rejuvenated after seeing Jesus risen from the grave. Had this been a lie these men would not have went to their deaths and not admitted it as such. The fact once again is that every one of these disciples, with the exception of the Apostle John, died horrible deaths and never once denied Jesus was who He said He was. These things are recorded in various Roman archives, and other historians of the time.

Speaking of historians, Luke, who wrote Luke and Acts, was a physician and a historian. If you read his work you will find many historical references, of which there is a tremendous amount of archeological evidence to support what he wrote. As a matter of fact, there is absolutely nothing that has ever been discovered that disproves anything written in the Bible. The simple truth is there is archeological support, prophetic support, and historical support for what is written in the bible. I don’t mean this a derogatory statement against all other religions, but the same cannot be said for any other religion, period. If there is other supporting archeological, or prophetic, or historical evidence for any other religion, would someone please be so kind and point me towards it.

Now back to what I previously mentioned regarding Lincoln and him being shot. Yes there is this obvious evidence existing concerning Lincoln (i.e., a body in the grave with a bullet hole in the skull, DNA evidence, as well as eyewitness accounts), and even given such strong evidence for the event, which is for me by far enough evidence to say without a shadow of a doubt that this event actually happened. But demonstrative scientific evidence cannot be offered to prove that Lincoln was shot. The problem we face is that demonstrative scientific evidence requires a hypothesis capable of being tested repeatedly in a laboratory by other scientists to verify the results. What I was trying to emphasize was, the very nature of historical events is that they cannot be repeated and, therefore, cannot be tested by scientific methods. The great error of skeptics is that they demand scientific proof about historical accounts about Jesus in the Gospels when such absolute proof about any historical event is impossible to obtain. However, the question about the historicity of the Gospels’ claims about Jesus is a question of fact and precisely the type of question that has been considered and judged by courts of justice every day for thousands of years.

Courts judge the truthfulness of witnesses and questions of fact according to a fundamental rule briefly summarized as such: In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true. Unfortunately, many arguments against the genuineness of the Gospel account are based on a cavalier approach that quickly rejects the historical record about Christ whenever the slightest doubt is raised by anyone about any detail in the Gospel account. Unwilling to acknowledge that the evangelists’ accounts are probably true; they contemptuously reject the Gospels’ statements because they believe that it is possible that they might be false. If this unreasonable basis for judging the truth were applied to the records of the event of the assassination of Lincoln, we would have to throw out as unreliable virtually all the statements of actual witnesses that allow us to understand what happened during that tragic event.

Now I could go on a bit more, but for the sake of not getting into a novel, I will conclude with this: I would like to point out that the claims of the Gospel are so momentous that it is vital that we as individuals examine the evidence to determine whether the Gospel record is true or not. Nothing less that our soul’s eternal destiny is at stake. Personally, with me previously being a hardcore agnostic, it was once presented to me by someone who loved the Lord Jesus, to at the very least, consider the evidence. And for many of us, myself included, this was the most difficult part of the whole process of accepting Christ and His message. For God makes it all too easy to have eternal salvation, as it's a gift freely given to all whom genuinely seek.

Please, if anyone will kindly do so, point out where this is dangerous thinking, wrong, stupid, unacceptable, or whatever else, and show me the errors of my ways.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 05:50:09 pm by Clip Johnson »
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suijurisfreeman

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"Courts judge the truthfulness of witnesses and questions of fact according to a fundamental rule briefly summarized as such: In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true."

ROTFLMAO!!!!  Yep, and Santa Claus will be stopping by on December 24th again this year!  And exactly what's the point of cross-examination?  Ever hear of a witness's testimony being impeached?
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Clip Johnson

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Thanks for kindly pointing that out. Yes I do see the humor in that as well; however, my point, I thought, was clearly made. That is in fact the basis of how our current court systems (not only in this country) are supposed to operate, is it not?
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dubber308

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Thanks for kindly pointing that out. Yes I do see the humor in that as well; however, my point, I thought, was clearly made. That is in fact the basis of how our current court systems (not only in this country) are supposed to operate, is it not?
That is how it's supposed to work. Throw in the human factor (greed, lust, control) and the "safeguards" and "laws" and "rules" and "regs" get bent, broken, ignored or thrown out. The system is broke.
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Conjurers from darker times
Betrayal and conspiracy
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suijurisfreeman

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"When one objectively looks at the overwhelming amount of evidence to support the authenticity of the Bible, an individual can only come to the conclusion that the Bible is from God and Him alone."

That statement simply isn't true!  During my extensive four year study of christianity and how we came to have the bible I came to the exact opposite conclusion.  My questions to you would be:
(1) when were the books of the new testament actually written?
(2) who actually wrote said books?
(3) at what date was it decided which books were to be included in the bible?
(4) who made said decision?
(5) by whose authority were said decisions made?
(6) what criteria was used to make said decision?

It would probably be better to start another thread rather than high-jacking this thread any further.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 08:51:47 pm by suijurisfreeman »
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Claire

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Please, if anyone will kindly do so, point out where this is dangerous thinking, wrong, stupid, unacceptable, or whatever else, and show me the errors of my ways.

Well, here's one (of about 50) possible errors of your ways: The topic of the thread is why (or whether) Christianity or any other religion is anti-freedom.

Although it's common for threads to drift off the original topic, your post wasn't a "drift." It was a sharp turn in a different direction. You weren't even trying to discuss the topic; you were proselytizing.

And you know what, Clip Johnson? Although you seem like an extremely nice, sincere person, proselytizing is blanking tiresome. And I for one am sick of people coming to my door, sick of people stopping me on the streets, sick of people telling me I better believe in their god OR ELSE. And I'd really rather not have to deal with it here, thank you very much.




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Clip Johnson

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Yes, this is so true Dubber308, this has been well documented through out the ages, and that is how well-twisted and contorted mankind is able to get anything that begins as being good, reasonable, and true, he so sets his mind upon to do. However, my main emphasis was about the question regarding the historicity of the Gospels' claims about Jesus is a question of fact - precisely the type of question that has been considered and judged by courts of justice every day for thousands of years.
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suijurisfreeman

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Thanks for kindly pointing that out. Yes I do see the humor in that as well; however, my point, I thought, was clearly made. That is in fact the basis of how our current court systems (not only in this country) are supposed to operate, is it not?

My point was that it's delusional to actually believe truth or justice have anything to do with the bs that goes on in the courtroom today.  Let's take my little excursion in legal la-la land,  with the exception of myself all the other witnesses swore to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help them god.  I informed the judge that I couldn't take such an oath as I have no first-hand knowledge of a being called god and that it would therefore be hypocritical of me to take such an oath.  Virtually each and everyone of these fine upstanding 'christians' who swore to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help them god lied, lied, lied.  I was one of the few witnesses involved in that case who actually told the truth.  I was actually stupid enough to believe that since I knew what the truth was regarding my 22 days of remonstrance in front of the Monroe County courthouse and that if I told the truth in court I wouldn't be convicted of their sham charges.  How you think it's supposed to work and what actually goes on are two different things -- been there, done that!
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Radio Flyer

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Well, I have to agree with you Clip Johnson that I would prefer not to get into this argument as it is all too often fruitless.

I am glad that you are able to justify your own faith and that you find whatever comfort in it you do.

I should bow out because I have no intention of angering someone over this subject at this point, Thomas Jefferson stated that there should be a "wall of separation" from religion and politics I cannot agree more.

I am politically against special treatment for any person religion or not - the exemption of Churches, Mosques, and Temples along with any "holy" persons is repugnant.
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Clip Johnson

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Please, if anyone will kindly do so, point out where this is dangerous thinking, wrong, stupid, unacceptable, or whatever else, and show me the errors of my ways.

Well, here's one (of about 50) possible errors of your ways: The topic of the thread is why (or whether) Christianity or any other religion is anti-freedom.

Although it's common for threads to drift off the original topic, your post wasn't a "drift." It was a sharp turn in a different direction. You weren't even trying to discuss the topic; you were proselytizing.

And you know what, Clip Johnson? Although you seem like an extremely nice, sincere person, proselytizing is blanking tiresome. And I for one am sick of people coming to my door, sick of people stopping me on the streets, sick of people telling me I better believe in their god OR ELSE. And I'd really rather not have to deal with it here, thank you very much.






I'm very sorry that you feel that way Claire. And I sincerely apologize for offending you, or upsetting you. As I previously said here in this thread, i really hate to get involved in things of this matter. Things that are left up to each and every one of us to come to our own conclusions based upon the information, evidence, etc, that we have at hand to go by. I'm really and truly not trying to push my point of view based upon my experiences on you or anyone else.

My very reason for posting is closely akin to the emotions you have expressed to me. With the exception that my dismay is caused by the fact that a few posters within this thread have made disparaging statements about Christians and/or Christianity, and there is not one soul here that has made stand for Christians and/or Christianity. Hence me speaking up in an attempt to show that there is some validity to there being some semblance of rationality and prudence that goes into making such a decision as I have shared.

It is abundantly clear this is neither the time nor the place to argue these points with you or anyone else. As in all honesty, it was not my intent to preach to you or anyone else here for that matter. My main objective when I first signed up to this site was to learn more about issues that were very important to me. Issues that weren't being talked much about elsewhere I might add.  As I said, I do apologize for stepping over the line here, and will do my best to refrain from any similar future postings here.    
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Clip Johnson

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Well, I have to agree with you Clip Johnson that I would prefer not to get into this argument as it is all too often fruitless.

I should bow out because I have no intention of angering someone over this subject at this point, Thomas Jefferson stated that there should be a "wall of separation" from religion and politics I cannot agree more.


I whole-heartedly agree with you Radio Flyer. I too wish not to anger anyone as I apparently have done. I too will bow out of this subject.
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Who...me?

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I will only state that I consider myself a Christian and I don't try to shove my belief's down anyone's throat.  I personally don't care if someone else has the same belief's as I do and so do not stop folks or knock on their doors.  I feel the same way as many here that when someone knocks on my door and gives me what ever their standard line is and I say no thank you...they should leave...politely.

As to the original question...I think that everyone should be responsible for what ever they do.  My reading of the Bible supports this.  God won't MAKE you do anything.  And there are and should be penalties for harming someone. So I see no problem believing in freedom and the Bible at the same time.  I also believe in ZAP.  If some one assaults me or mine I will respond in, what I consider to be, an appropriate manner. 
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gaurdduck

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He's certainly correct that, if taken literally, the bible is full of commandments that instruct followers to agress against others -- and that to the extent that people follow those particular orders, they're opponents of freedom.

If they don't follow those commands, then of course we shouldn't consider them aggressors. But it's still creepy to live among people you know would like to stone you to death, if only society would give them permission to.


I really wasn't going to respond to this thread, as it can easily lead to misinterpretation, or getting someone else riled up. Which is something I personally don't much enjoy doing. For all political and religious ideals we all hold to are personal choices we each have made, or must eventually make, in regards to our own lives and futures.

Anyway, Claire, I'm not aware of a single Christian who holds this view (doesn't mean there aren't those who do, just my personal experience), but the fact remains (as I am certain that you are already abundantly aware of) that there will always be folks who seek to impose their will on others regardless of religious or political affiliation. But more importantly I would like to point out that God does not give, and has not given, such commandments, as you have referred to, that relates to our current time and/or society. The commandments given in the Bible regarding aggression towards others were historical facts and stories given to indicate God's justice during various ancient times.  They cannot , and should not be, construed to validate anyone's aggression towards any other living being.

According to God, the most important commandments given in the Bible are found in Matthew 22: 37-40; "Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Now I ask is it prudent to assume this is a bad thing for world to have folks in it who hold to this?

I will only state that I consider myself a Christian and I don't try to shove my belief's down anyone's throat.  I personally don't care if someone else has the same belief's as I do and so do not stop folks or knock on their doors.  I feel the same way as many here that when someone knocks on my door and gives me what ever their standard line is and I say no thank you...they should leave...politely.

As to the original question...I think that everyone should be responsible for what ever they do.  My reading of the Bible supports this.  God won't MAKE you do anything.  And there are and should be penalties for harming someone. So I see no problem believing in freedom and the Bible at the same time.  I also believe in ZAP.  If some one assaults me or mine I will respond in, what I consider to be, an appropriate manner. 


You both hit the nail on its head.

PS:
Claire,
The only people who deserve to be stoned (with rocks, not Maryjane) are rapists and mass murderers.
You, are in no danger of that fate.
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Canadian Mamma

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I whole-heartedly agree with you Radio Flyer. I too wish not to anger anyone as I apparently have done. I too will bow out of this subject.

I am SO sorry to see you make this statement Chip.

I can understand that we have found a kinship here that is comforting, there are not many places where we can talk so openly about our "Radical" thinking. I can also understand not wanting to taint that feeling of family with dissent.  But, Isn't that how the masses are kept in line? Fear of being different or worse yet your opinions and ideas should offend or anger someone else?

Bad form for someone to have a hissy because you happen to not conform to their thinking and wants on a specific topic. This forum, as do many, affords a user many many many options on how THEY could deal with THEIR issue with out resorting to telling you , no matter how sweetly,  they prefer you to shut the F up thank you very much.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 06:11:52 am by Canadian Mamma »
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