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Author Topic: Life near military installations. What if?  (Read 47357 times)

Rarick

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2010, 04:54:10 am »

If things go bad enough that Barter surfaces, what does a base have that is barterable?   What do you trade for that/ those products?  There is a slippery slope into a fuedalism there.

In the short term, there is no real risk as long as people do not make the mistake of saying "hey they have food!" and try and cross the fence...............

the transitional periods are what make things unpredictable, some bases would disintegrate or all the people would consolidate on a more sustainable base.  (A Marine airwing relocating from Miramar in the middle of a big city- to Pendleton in the middle of 10's of thousands of acres of open land and merging with the 1st Mardiv...... or similar). 

I would stay away from a base simply because there is a lot of hardware and potential for it's misuse.  There is always the "Gate town" especially in some areas where the base IS the economy, and a lot of those folks are not nice at all.  Last is when things fall apart you are going to have human beings of the "Party Animal" age, still settling their sense of morals, and heavily armed roaming about, many of whom are habituated to war zone justice, with tactical training and practise exceeding about 99% of the local population..............
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Polearm

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2010, 04:02:54 pm »


My take:

AFB's:  Long runways, pointed in different directions  and some margin of built in safety distance equates to a large base, geographically.  Peronnel wise, not many people are required to actually fly the planes and I think it averages out to about 6 or 7 ground personnel per aircraft in ground crew (repair people) and then a small number of personnel per plane in Base personnel.  The larger the number of planes, the smaller the average of base support there is likely to be (for example, if quarters are offered, one person is required as the warden for one building or the same person can manage six buildings, same for some other jobs).  In other support, like fire, ambulance and MP, these should be similar regardless of whether it is a single squadron on base or a wing.  The large geographic size of the base, along with the small numbers of personnel, make it more difficult to guard.  *someone* is going to have to patrol the entire perimeter of the place, possibly setting out guard posts, standby to chase anyone hopping the fence and any of the multitude of tasks that might come up.  All by a bunch of guys and gals who are doing this as a secondary role ("I'm not in the Infantry, I fix airplane engines").  Plus, at least at first, there is the likelyhood of continued flight operations.  I agree with Rarick that smaller AFB would be abandoned (and stripped of anything militarily useful).

Naval base:  Much the same in many ways as an AFB, except that once the ships leave, they are gone for a while usually.  Sure, there is all the dockyard workers and probably some Marines kicking around (I mean that in the nicest possible way), but there is still an area to guard without the ships crews.  Tie that in to the fact many Naval bases have become the centre of fairly urban centres, and the Golden Horde that inhabit those, and security will be priority one.

Army/Marine bases:  I've grouped both together for brevity.  Army/Marine units would be deployed to those areas deemed most critical by the Military command.  The government can give them a list, the Army/Marines are only likely to have the ability to guard a fraction of those locations properly.  Priorities will be set.  Which do you think will get a higher priority:  a city undergoing civil strife caused by the collapse of the local government, a seaport/railway transfer facility, a nuclear reactor plant in operation, a water purification plant in a small midwestern town, a FEMA refugee camp outside a different major city, a government facility that issues import/export permits to foreign companies, the border with Mexico, a civilian ammunition plant, the military base and dependants, a local bank, a food distribution point in a quiet middle class town Wally World parking lot, County lockup (for those waiting trial or for sentences of less than 30 days), a power substation, "presence patrol" in a rough area of town with local cops, an Interstate Highway checkpoint.. etc..  Of the 15 I gave, all are likely.  An Army/Marine commander must then decide whether he wants to follow the orders to the letter and guard all the locations with a few troops (with a highly mobile reserve as backup) or guard a few places properly and make do with roving patrols at the rest.  Streched thin is the term.

I've seen examples of different arms not willingly helping in what is considered another's specialty (like Navy commanders refusing to deploy sailors "above the high water mark" during the aftermath of a hurricane) until orders came down their chain of command expicitly telling them to do so.

Now, getting off base.  Depends what you do.  Some civilian staff might be deemed "essential" to operations.  The military has dropped numbers so low that civilian employees do most of the mundane work (clean, cook, plow roads, paint fences, cut grass.. etc) and the military personnel "rationalized" out of the force.  This leaves more available slots for combat troops or "pointy end".  Essential staff might be "encouraged" to stay.  This offers whatever protection the facility has and at least some food.  If it is an economic collapse, then the civilians might be laid off and military troops pressganged into those jobs.

On food and water.  Most bases seem to have either done away with the base water purification plant and connected to the local town water supply or at least privatized it (where the corporation sells the water to the base and whoever else).  In most cases, there is no long term plan to keep it running (there is a generator, it has some fuel...).  Food is usually delivered frequently, sometimes as often as every day (5-6 days a week).  Most facilities don't hold massive stocks of field rations either.  Sure, there is a big pile on the base, but figure out how many personnel will be eating them along with whatever is sent off to FEMA or whom ever and the number of days starts to get small.  30 days of hard rations for even 100 people is a big pile (9000 individual rations or 900 cases).  Now imagine the pile of rations for a brigade of 5000 troops for 30 days.  The exception to this would be a central supply depot.  Most of that should be shipped out to user end storehouses in the event of a pending emergency.  Part of that might be sending extra stocks off to overseas bases in the event of emergencies in the host country.

Now, in the case of any installation, as Bear has indicated (I think), a Base Commander has a pretty hefty combat force on hand.  If discipline can be maintained (especially if families are brought on base "to replace those civilian contractors we can no longer pay") then a local commander can become the local warlord (based on the overwhelming firepower and training of the troops).  Sending out foraging parties (of well trained, well armed troops) would become essential to maintaining that force.  The force would continue to exist to support the force (self licking ice cream cone theory).

Security on a base, whether now or after a crash, would be paramount.  Sadly, there are no rooms full of unlocked and unguarded automatic weapons on military bases anymore.  The terrorist boogeyman has made damn sure that doeesn't happen.  Most places don't even store the bolts in the same place as the rest of the weapon.  Even if the base slowly emptied out, those final few soldiers left would load all the automatics into a truck and bugger off, whether into the sunset or to another base (likely, as ordered).  Nothing that could go bang or boom would be left behind.  Many smaller bases don't have more than a few hundred rounds of ammunition per rifle, usually held by the base security unit.  When a unit plans to go to the range, ammunition is brought in from another, larger base or the troops go there (where there is likely a range anyways...those cost money for upkeep).


JWR's book "Patriots" has been mentioned.  I have a copy and think it is a great read that is full of useful information on prepping.

However, he seems to anticipate that *only* the US collapses.  I would speculate that most of society would collapse, whether due to economics or brute force.  The US is, regardless of what many people would like to admit, one of the main factors keeping the world "civilized' (as such).  Without the US big stick being waved, most of the undesireable nations, who are held in check by the big stick, would attack their US supported neighbour.  The US supplies large amounts of supplies to emergencies and considerable sea and airlift capability.  Much of Africa and parts of Asia along with other countires, their currency tied to the FRN, would be functionally bankrupt regardless of the billions of paper dollars they hold.

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MommaHen

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2011, 07:47:53 pm »

This thread is of great interest for me. Chances are we will be living at/near/around a military post in the near future.

Do any others have opinions on preparedness for those of us with no choice but to be near a miilitary installation?

*Our goal when moving will be to find a "farm house" with a couple acres, not in a neighborhood, and a few miles at minium away from a blacktop hwy/main road, but chances are it will still be w/in a 20 mile radius.
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Moonbeam

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2011, 09:02:07 am »

I've wondered about this as well as we've looked at properties that are between 20 - 40 miles from a military base...
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superops7000

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2011, 07:02:40 pm »

I've been worrying about something like this happening for quite some time, especially since I live near a military base, not to close but close enough for them to take action in my area, but then I stopped worrying when I realize I had enough explosive to destroy most of the base and since the area where I usually spend most of my day is pretty isolated. I think it is a training base, can military bases used for training be used as a base of operations as discussed in this topic
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da gooch

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 11:04:50 pm »

I've been worrying about something like this happening for quite some time, especially since I live near a military base, not to close but close enough for them to take action in my area, but then I stopped worrying when I realize I had enough explosive to destroy most of the base and since the area where I usually spend most of my day is pretty isolated. I think it is a training base, can military bases used for training be used as a base of operations as discussed in this topic

In a word ... Yes.

If Command decides that the installation near you is the perfect site for their redoubt then they will fortify it and establish their perimeters. No If You Please will be offered.

Remember most of our military folks are trained to move into a strange place and not only "take over" but also to fortify it and clear it of "unfriendlies".  And they are trained to do this under fire IF Necessary.

I would closely examine the surrounding countryside and try to decide if there is any natural resource that the military would find "Absolutely Necessary" to their plans whatever they may be [ like a large natural lake of potable water?] and then I would move away from the resource or make myself as small and unnoticeable as possible.

Having a lot of explosives is not going to be very helpful unless you can pre-plant them where you can use them to best advantage. [Good Luck with that plan what with the Administration shouting "Terrorists" every ten minutes.]
Plans that involve actually directly fighting any trained [and in most cases experienced] military units is suicidal at best.
Good luck with that "I had enough explosive to destroy most of the base " concept.
Just remember what the military is spending all of their time doing and what they are training for ... while the rest of us work our pitiful few acres and try to stay alive every day.

The more YEARS of military training in combat and the use of explosives that you have the better your chances of even surviving any direct confrontation BUT If you had any the question would not have been asked ... OpSec.


Just stating the blatantly obvious over here ....
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superops7000

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 11:59:26 pm »

I would only attack military personal in the case that they become corrupt and fire first.
Quote
Having a lot of explosives is not going to be very helpful unless you can pre-plant them where you can use them to best advantage. [Good Luck with that plan what with the Administration shouting "Terrorists" every ten minutes.]
I have a lot of free time and a lot of resources. About 5 miles away from my home is some abandoned scrapyard or junkyard but what i discovered was that most of the stuff there was actually usable if you knew how to use it. So I set up shop there and started crafting. The first thing I made was some small handhold firework launcher that could fire 6 fireworks at once and what I found was that it lunched the fireworks much further than intended so I started experimenting with some different chemicals and powders until I came up with a solution. I then made my own cylinder shaped shell out of plastic to hold the powder and when I fired it it turned out to be highly explosive. It was basically high explosive hand held artillery. I have only made 12 of the explosive shells but only fired six.
They have never been used to hurt anyone and don't think I am a terrorist, just really creative.
So if the military dose go insane I could fire at them from a range, if i could produce enough before the get to me.
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MommaHen

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 01:20:31 am »

Just playing devils advocate.


Alot of military have families that live on or near a post as well, probably wouldn't show up for state-side offense in the crunch, and would more than likely be rushing home to protect their own.
Granted there are single guys, a*holes and higher ups with no heart. But you'd be surprised to find out just how many service members have like-minded ideas about the way things are, and realize they are just pawns.
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da gooch

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2011, 07:51:23 pm »

Just playing devils advocate.


Alot of military have families that live on or near a post as well, probably wouldn't show up for state-side offense in the crunch, and would more than likely be rushing home to protect their own.
Granted there are single guys, a*holes and higher ups with no heart. But you'd be surprised to find out just how many service members have like-minded ideas about the way things are, and realize they are just pawns.

Not too surprised MommaHen.

Wander on over to the Oath Keepers section one of these days.
Stewart ["Stewart the yalie"] Elias a few others and I started Oath Keepers right here at TMM way back in '09 just because we had high hopes that Most of the current serving were in fact honorable folks and would not violate their Oath to the Constitution and through it to the American People.


I would only attack military personal in the case that they become corrupt and fire first.
Quote
Having a lot of explosives is not going to be very helpful unless you can pre-plant them where you can use them to best advantage. [Good Luck with that plan what with the Administration shouting "Terrorists" every ten minutes.]
I have a lot of free time and a lot of resources. About 5 miles away from my home is some abandoned scrapyard or junkyard but what i discovered was that most of the stuff there was actually usable if you knew how to use it. So I set up shop there and started crafting. The first thing I made was some small handhold firework launcher that could fire 6 fireworks at once and what I found was that it lunched the fireworks much further than intended so I started experimenting with some different chemicals and powders until I came up with a solution. I then made my own cylinder shaped shell out of plastic to hold the powder and when I fired it it turned out to be highly explosive. It was basically high explosive hand held artillery. I have only made 12 of the explosive shells but only fired six.
They have never been used to hurt anyone and don't think I am a terrorist, just really creative.
So if the military dose go insane I could fire at them from a range, if i could produce enough before the get to me.

Yeah .. uhuh ... sure ... good luck with that idea Gunkid.
It is you isn't it?

Did you give up on peanut butter and wheelbarrows full of 22 rounds already?
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DiabloLoco

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2011, 08:07:50 pm »

Well whoever he is, "gunkid" or not, he really needs a lesson in OPSEC.
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Silver

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2011, 11:51:22 am »

JWR's How to survive the end of the world as we know it. The book is from what he calls a "grid down" or worst case stand point. I have 1 big army base and 4 air force installations within 15 miles of me. Im curious to know how things will be around here when the SHTF. I also work at one of the installations as a civilian contractor. If something goes tango uniform while I am on post Im not sure what will happen or what my options or objectives should or will be. Thoughts?

I was a contractor on an AFB when 9/11 went down.  The base commander was giving a presentation to my group when he got a text message and told us "both towers are down." He left. 

Guys with M-16s instantly appeared all over the base.  We were politely but quickly loaded onto buses and taken off base.  So were all the other contractors, visitors, civilians, and anyone else not in the air force.  They may have let some cooks stay, I don't know.

Families did not get on base while it was locked down.  No adjustments to living arrangements were made.  I spent 10 days before I could get home; traffic to and from the base was very tightly controlled the entire time.  Leaves were cancelled, more people went in than came out.

I would expect very similar policies and actions today.  JWR is as usual so full of shit his eyes are brown.  He writes entertaining fantasy but he's going to get a lot of people hurt someday, and that makes me angry.

As for all the talk about picking up weapons, sneaking through fences, etc.:  That's a perfect way to get your damned head blown off.  Not only would you deserve it, but the average IQ of the human race would increase.  Security at any army, navy, or air force base is very good.  Not perfect, nothing is, but stealing weapons and trying to get past guards and fences is suicidally stupid.

If/when things get really bad, the base commanders will have their hands full keeping people on the base.  A bug-in scenario is silly.  In a SHTF scenario, base commanders will be conserving resources and protecting perimeters, not inviting refugees into their base. 

Peace,

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Moonbeam

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2011, 02:23:54 pm »

It seems to me that it probably isn't too feasible to live really, really far from a military base seeing how they seem to be everywhere. And just think of the ones we don't know about. It also sounds like that the base would have their hands full and that civilians living 20 some odd miles away might be of little concern... Or am I completely mistaken?...
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Freedom is not being able to do what you want to do; freedom is being able to NOT do what you don't want to do.

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Bear

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2011, 05:32:02 pm »

It seems to me that it probably isn't too feasible to live really, really far from a military base seeing how they seem to be everywhere. And just think of the ones we don't know about. It also sounds like that the base would have their hands full and that civilians living 20 some odd miles away might be of little concern... Or am I completely mistaken?...

My thinking is that political power comes from controlling/influencing people. I would think that the priority would be to secure the population centers first,
and then fill-in control of less densely populated areas as time permits.

Now, to feed those people you need resources. Obviously TPTB would go after the resources which can be had easily, and in large quantities, first. So unless
you are a big producer of some sort (CAFO feed lot)/packing plant/silo operator, there just isn't much return in spending the effort in taking your stuff -- at least
in some organized manner. There may still be a risk of small bands of looters, but the return on the fuel spent would not be worth it.

Given a choice between a location in the suburbs, away from a military base, or a rural location that might be near a military base, I'd take my chances
in the rural area.

Bear


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Moonbeam

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2011, 10:15:51 pm »

Given a choice between a location in the suburbs, away from a military base, or a rural location that might be near a military base, I'd take my chances in the rural area.

I think so, too :)
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I'm not where I want to be, but I'm better than where I was!

Freedom is not being able to do what you want to do; freedom is being able to NOT do what you don't want to do.

"We must not amuse ourselves with the notion that we have done something when we have only formed a good resolution. Power comes by doing and not by resolving." Charlotte Mason

"Don't hurt people and don't take their stuff." Courtesy of FreedomWorks

Rarick

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Re: Life near military installations. What if?
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2011, 03:55:37 am »

Just playing devils advocate.


Alot of military have families that live on or near a post as well, probably wouldn't show up for state-side offense in the crunch, and would more than likely be rushing home to protect their own.
Granted there are single guys, a*holes and higher ups with no heart. But you'd be surprised to find out just how many service members have like-minded ideas about the way things are, and realize they are just pawns.

Ron Paul is one of the most popular political figure to the military right now according to some surveys.  Now as to exactly why (Going home Vs, Constitutionality Vs.  ?)  is anyones guess.
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........Duct tape is like the force, it has a light side, a darkside and holds the universe together.  It is theoretically reinforced with strings too.  (The dome has a darkside, lightside and strings of rebar for reinforcement too!)
-------------------------------------------
Most of the time news is about the same old violations of the first principles of consent and golden rule with a dash of force thrown in........ with just enough duct tape to be believable.
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