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[Junker]

http://billstclair.com/blog/041128.html#salisbury

David Salisbury - Non-Coercive Parenting (or A Person is a Person No Matter How Small) - incredible excerpts on communicating with children from How To Argue and Win Every Time: At Home, At Work, In Court, Everywhere, Everyday. Wish I could teach this to my wife. If the world were to learn this lesson, we could end war in two generations. [sunni saltypig]
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Beyond just living with your kids, homeschooling as well is not forcing or maniputating your kids into studying "the classics" or anything else. Good to read, good to remember.

[debeez]

Thanks Junker, I will have to pick that book up.  I collect parenting books like some people collect...well, whatever they collect!

This brings to mind an elevator discussion from the other day.  A co-worker just had a new baby.  We were talking about kids, when another co-worker chipped in and said "Enjoy them now, 'cause once they start talking it's all downhill."

Personally, this crap drives me crazy.  I just looked at her and said, "I have a 16 year old at home and I can't think of anyone I like more." ('cept maybe the Darling Boyfriend).  "She's wonderful," I said, "everything I ever wanted in a child."

The new father looked at me and half joking said, "Low expectations?"

"Nope.  High ones."  I retorted.

I respect my child, and she in turn, has the greatest respect for me as well.  That is the key, as that excerpt you sent touches on, in order to get respect, you must first give it.

So I ask you all, why is that such a hard thing for people to understand?  

[Junker]

Glad it helps your collection. You might also check Gatto's book on education (it's on-line). In it he presents the erroneous development of thinking kids stayed kids until high school graduation. He tells of e.g. Admiral Faragut (sailing ships) who became admiral at 15 and commanded his first ship at 12. Other stories too.

[debeez]

Yes, I've heard good things about John Taylor Gatto.

In it he presents the erroneous development of thinking kids stayed kids until high school graduation.

That reminds me of a long-ago discussion with my daughter.  She was eight and I was trying to get her to rinse her hair a little more thoroughly...she wasn't getting it, and I asked her when she thought she needed to learn this little task.  "When I'm 18." she replied.  

That was a real eye-opener, and it began a series of talks on how as a parent, I have to get her prepared for the world...talks that have continued through the years as we mosey along our parent/child journey.

 

[Junker]

Wow!

I remember back when my boy was three going on four. We were at a public playground together. There was learning for me as I watched him decide to jump or not from the top of some climbing thing. I had to remember that at that age, I too jumped and didn't die. In any case, while there he brought up and we got to talking about other kid's following the 'rules' (of politeness not the playground's sign). Point being that even so young kids are already thinking on morality and fairness, and are, as many have pointed out, quite aware of adult hypocracy and try to grasp what it means.

Off hand, I'd say the power relationship is the one that's generally most a problem. There I think one has to start out with the 'equal' under the law idea. And there most importantly equal to adults. With that moral equality comes the mutual respect and real conversation and problem solving.

[debeez]

Junker-

I was an only child, with no real experience with babies or children when my daughter was born.  I distinctly remember asking, "What do I do with it?" when they placed her in my arms...I was only 18 years old.

Around 18 months into my parenting experience, my dad's girlfriend insisted I take a parenting class and was willing to pay for it.  To appease her, I went ahead and took the class.  Eventually, I ended up teaching those same classes.  In later years I taught the court-ordered classes that Santa Clara County made every couple go through whenever there was a custody dispute/divorce in family court.  Talk about some pissed off, resistant people...whew!

For about four years I was married to a man who had 3 kids of his own.  The nicest thing my oldest stepson ever said to me was in response to my comment on how I felt I was probably more strict than his own mother was.  He said, "Christine, when you ask me to do something, or tell me NOT to do something, you explain why.  It isn't a 'because I said so' thing.  I don't mind doing something if there's a good reason for why I should."

He actually chose to live with us, despite the fact that he got away with far less in our house than in his mother's and was responsible for many more chores around the house.

I guess that all goes back to respect.  I respected him enough to give him an explanation, and when I was wrong, respected him enough to apologize.  I expected the same in return.

Another big concept that I emphasized to my parents in the parenting classes was trying to find out "why" a child was acting like they were.  If they were angry, for example, anger is a secondary emotion to fear or pain--find the source and you can often cure the problem.

No one is born knowing how to parent.  Me least of all.  But I have found nothing in life quite as rewarding.

[Junker]

I was one of four children. That gave me some perspective. Your class takin' and givin' is a fine thing though, even for folks that might have more experience. All sorts of new ideas and perspectives come up. I'm glad you found such a pleasant and rewarding way to grow with your family. Too often these days families aren't too happy and don't seem to be able to figure out what to do about it.

If'n I had a gulch, I'd try for twelve more of the little screamers-- maybe I could adopt some. I always enjoyed the growin' and learnin'.

[snokrash257]

Good article junker--thanks for the links.
some good books on the same subject can be found here:
http://powells.com/s?kw=getting+to+yes&Sea...x=54&Search.y=5
and here:
http://www.powells.com/s?kw=getting+past+n...y=skeptopotamus
Getting to yes, and Getting past no are excellent books, I don't know about the one about negotiating with kids, though.

[Junker]

Thank you in turn, Snokrash. One good link deserves another.

I'm not familiar with these books so I'll post the details from Powell's:


Getting to Yes, 2nd Edition: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In
Roger Fisher - Trade paper Used $8.95 (List Price: $15.00)

"The point is to negotiate on principle, not pressure--on mutual search for mutually discernible objectivity, patiently and firmly puting aside every other gambit. The book is a landmark, already a bible for international negotiators but just as useful for deciding which movie to see tonight or which school to send the family scion to." Millennium Whole Earth Catalog* Stewart Brand



Getting To Yes: the Secret To Successful Negotiation (Uk Edition)
Bruce Patton (deputy Director, Harvard Negotiation Project, Harvard, USA) - Trade paper New $22.50

Few of us are armed with the powerful negotiation skills that prevent stubborn haggling and ensure mutual problem-solving. This title presents a few easily remembered principles that will guide readers to success, no matter what the other side does or whatever dirty tricks they resort to.



Getting Your Child from No to Yes: Without Nagging, Bribing, or Threatening
Barbara C. Unell and Jerry L. Wyckoff - Trade paper Used $6.50 (List Price: $10.00)

"It's the word every parent dreads, desperately tries to avoid, and yet knows all too well: 'NO!' Without being preachy or unrealistic, Wyckoff and Unell offer a practical primer on how to interact with children when 'no' seems inevitable but 'yes' is necessary." Foreword Magazine



Getting Past No: Negotiating Your Way from Confrontation to Cooperation
William Ury - Trade paper Used $10.95 (List Price: $15.95), Hardcover Used $8.95

"William Ury offers pithy, practical, systematic advice for developing cooperation, for engaging in joint problem solving rather than bitter competition." Millennium Whole Earth Catalog --Stephanie Mills
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Not a lot to go on, but Stewart & Stephanie have been reviewing help and development books for decades. And Snokrash give a thumbs up to Getting to Yes and Getting Past No. How are you doing with your kids? Friends? Neighbors? Countrymen?