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Author Topic: Disengagement  (Read 7716 times)

hangman

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Disengagement
« on: July 22, 2011, 08:49:12 am »

i've wondered why more people don't see it coming. Fred does.

http://www.fredoneverything.net/Disengagement.shtml

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July 21, 2011

When a country works reasonably well—when the schools teach algebra and not governmentally mandated Appropriate Values, when the police are scarce and courteous, when government is remote and minds its business and works more for the benefit of the country than for looters and special interests, then pledging to it a degree of allegiance isn't foolish. Decades back America was such a country, imperfect as all countries are, but good enough to cherish.

As decline begins, and government becomes oppressive, self-righteous, and ruthless yet incompetent, as official spying flourishes, as corruption sets in hard, and institutions rot, it is time to disengage. Loyalty to a country is a choice, not an obligation. In other times people have loved family, friends, common decency, tribe, regiment, or church instead of country. In an age of national collapse, this is wise.

A fruitful field of disengagement might be called domestic expatriation—the recognition that living in a country makes you a resident, not a subscriber. It is one thing to be loyal to a government that is loyal to you, another thing entirely to continue that loyalty when the Brown Shirts march and the government rejects everything that you believe in. While the phrase has become unbearably pretentious, it is possible to regard oneself as a citizen of the world rather than of the Reich./SNIP
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Bear

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2011, 12:51:24 pm »

That was beautiful, damn near lyrical.

Bear
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MarcColby

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 03:48:21 am »

Well said: If you can't pay for it, don't buy it; and if you don't need it, don't buy it. I appreciate the writing skill.
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Lightning

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 06:19:01 pm »

Yep, Fred's damn good.   :mellow:
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casca-503

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2011, 09:08:41 pm »

I applaud you, Hangman,   very well put..  am sure  many  share  your thoughts..
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ken1944

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 02:02:22 pm »

very well put.
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da gooch

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2012, 12:50:02 am »

That Fred is a pretty good shot. He's on the bulls eye nearly all of the time.
He is one of my "regular stops" for info and attitude.

He is also prolific as far as writing goes.

Check him out at: http://www.fredoneverything.net
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knobster

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 11:59:57 am »

Love these old threads...  I was reading Fred's words regarding college:

Quote
Disengagement from the system of universities, or as I should say, “universities,” is also advisable. This is true, first, because if you seek cultivation, to gain a grasp of such matters as history, literature, the arts and the sciences, you can do it better on your own. Professors serve little purpose other than to ensure that the student does his homework. If the student wants to study, he can do it by himself, and if he doesn't want to study, he has no business in a university.

Second, universities these days, with exceptions I hope, are citadels of intellectual darkness. They teach little, and chiefly serve to force the young to borrow backbreaking sums from colluding banks. The wasted time and phenomenal cost cannot be justified unless they provide some remarkable recompense, and they do not.

Universities largely prepare the student for a life of office work in some dismal institution, trapping him in the retirement system and making him a prisoner of the state. In a nation subsiding into the third world, institutions cannot be counted on.

It makes more sense to become, say, a commercial diver, or a master auto mechanic. The training costs less than piratical fifth-rate USOs (university-shaped objects). Both are interesting, challenging, and well-remunerated, which cannot be said of law for most who do not go into Wall Street. Crucially important, cars can be found everywhere, and such as oil companies the world over need divers. You are not tied to the United States, where the death rattle begins to be heard over the thump of the storm troopers' boots.

Seeing how the costs of a typical 4-year college continue to climb through the stratosphere I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that a college degree is not necessarily the way to go for young people these days.  I got my BS in engineering back in the 90s and here I sit in a cubicle, staring at a computer.  I'm Dilbert.  One of my brothers started working in a garage changing oil and tires and is now (15ish years later) a master mechanic who can basically charge what he wants to all of us who couldn't tell the difference between a timing belt and a seat belt.  He learned on the job and acquired different certifications through his employer.  His total cost for all this education: $0.00.  I find myself scouring books and the 'net almost daily, looking for knowledge on woodworking, metalworking, welding, soldering, reloading, etc and from time to time wonder why the heck I even went to college.  (Then I remember that's where I met my SHW...)

So bravo to Fred for his words and also to gooch who started this thread.
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FDD

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2015, 12:54:09 pm »

Who is John Galt?
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If we want our grandchildren to be able to give thanks for being Americans, we'll need to.....start steering a course away from government control of our lives-and start moving back toward greater personal responsibility.   Ed Feulner

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Bear

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2015, 02:12:02 pm »

Knobster,

My daughter is going back to school at UNR to get her Masters in Public Health.
She's been out working long enough to find the gaps in her education that prevent
her from doing what she wants to do, and she's figured the MPH from UNR will fill
those holes. I think she's one of the rare cases where more college may actually
make sense.

I got a BS degree in Earth Science (Geology) and have been working in computers
after graduation since day 1. I thought about going back to get a degree in Comp Sci,
but it no longer makes sense. I pick up the education I need to deal with specific
problems and don't worry about it.

YMMV,

Bear
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knobster

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2015, 06:10:57 am »

I got a BS degree in Earth Science (Geology) and have been working in computers
after graduation since day 1. I thought about going back to get a degree in Comp Sci,
but it no longer makes sense. I pick up the education I need to deal with specific
problems and don't worry about it.

 :laugh:
I worked my way up to project manager at my previous job.  6 months into it I realized that anyone with intimate knowledge of MS Excel could do really well.  Taking metrics from engineering, massaging the data and making pretty charts for the directors to ooh and aah over are all that is required.  So after nearly two years of making charts and using macros I decided to get back into engineering. 
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In God we trust, everyone else bring data.

da gooch

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 09:18:53 am »

Love these old threads...  I was reading Fred's words regarding college:

Quote
Disengagement from the system of universities, or as I should say, “universities,” is also advisable. This is true, first, because if you seek cultivation, to gain a grasp of such matters as history, literature, the arts and the sciences, you can do it better on your own. Professors serve little purpose other than to ensure that the student does his homework. If the student wants to study, he can do it by himself, and if he doesn't want to study, he has no business in a university.

Second, universities these days, with exceptions I hope, are citadels of intellectual darkness. They teach little, and chiefly serve to force the young to borrow backbreaking sums from colluding banks. The wasted time and phenomenal cost cannot be justified unless they provide some remarkable recompense, and they do not.

Universities largely prepare the student for a life of office work in some dismal institution, trapping him in the retirement system and making him a prisoner of the state. In a nation subsiding into the third world, institutions cannot be counted on.

It makes more sense to become, say, a commercial diver, or a master auto mechanic. The training costs less than piratical fifth-rate USOs (university-shaped objects). Both are interesting, challenging, and well-remunerated, which cannot be said of law for most who do not go into Wall Street. Crucially important, cars can be found everywhere, and such as oil companies the world over need divers. You are not tied to the United States, where the death rattle begins to be heard over the thump of the storm troopers' boots.

Seeing how the costs of a typical 4-year college continue to climb through the stratosphere I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that a college degree is not necessarily the way to go for young people these days.  I got my BS in engineering back in the 90s and here I sit in a cubicle, staring at a computer.  I'm Dilbert.  One of my brothers started working in a garage changing oil and tires and is now (15ish years later) a master mechanic who can basically charge what he wants to all of us who couldn't tell the difference between a timing belt and a seat belt.  He learned on the job and acquired different certifications through his employer.  His total cost for all this education: $0.00.  I find myself scouring books and the 'net almost daily, looking for knowledge on woodworking, metalworking, welding, soldering, reloading, etc and from time to time wonder why the heck I even went to college.  (Then I remember that's where I met my SHW...)

So bravo to Fred for his words and also to gooch hangman who started this thread.

Fixed that bit for you knobster ...   :thumbsup:

edit to embolden the "fix" ... g
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 09:21:43 am by gooch »
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knobster

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 11:06:59 am »

Whoops.  I hang my virtual head in shame...  Apologies to hangman!
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You will not rise to the occasion; you will default to your level of training.
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Silver

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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2015, 07:07:34 am »

So after nearly two years of making charts and using macros I decided to get back into engineering.

Bravo!  Good for you.  Here's a not-so-secret: engineering and the hard physical sciences really do require a college-level education.  I say "college-level" because these days an exceptionally disciplined individual can find all the course and materials on-line, and in theory complete the equivalent of a BS or MS with self study.  The nature of PhD work requires an advisor, typically but not necessarily a professor.

But self-study is hard. Few can do it. The need to earn a living and life in general intrudes.  College can provide an environment that allows serious students to learn and study, and exposes them to ideas and people they would not experience in self study.

Another not-so-secret: an engineering education, to a much greater degree than hard science, is obsolete the day you graduate. Math and physics changes at the edges, but the core remains pretty constant.  Not so engineering.  A deep understanding of transistors, or 90's level IC tech and capabilities, is almost completely irrelevant to a 21st century EE.  And today's tech will be superceded again, and again, in the next 20 years.

To be a real engineer means devoting yourself (and resigning yourself) to life-long learning.  The technology changes are not just rapid, they are exponential. 

So I doubly applaud your decision.  It's not an easy one, but both you and civil society will be happier and wealthier (in the ways that count) for it.

Peace,

Silver
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Re: Disengagement
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2015, 10:21:21 pm »

Silver's post seems on topic, but I disagree.  Engineering changes EXACTLY the same way as any other hard science, since it is applied hard science, nothing more, nothing less.

I agree with his remarks about college.  I studied under one of the lead engineers on the original SCSI development team.  I wouldn't have run into him if I hadn't gone to college.

I agree about the self study for life thing, but lets face it, today's IC's are still yesterday's IC's just smaller.  Lets face it, you still use capacitors to keep current steady and clean, you still use starter capacitors to turn motors and motor derived technologies (compressors, etc.)

I also disagree.  Say, when I was still studying in college, I suggested using "super capacitors" to power things where batteries/consumables are used now.  Years later, Apple and a few other bigger players in the server industry started doing just that.  Another one of my many coulda' woulda' shoulda's.  Shoulda' cashed in on that idea back when I was in school.  Back then I preferred creating things than realizing I should make money with them.

Sorry folks, but the primary thing is to learn to make money off your ideas, THEN go to school.  No point going to college if you have the job / employee mindset.  You'll still end up J.O.B. (Just Over Broke.)

Remember that and teach it to your kids.  We don't have a free world because we don't all wean ourselves off the employee mindset, that's all.
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