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Author Topic: Maunderings On Leadership  (Read 8444 times)

mantispid

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Maunderings On Leadership
« on: November 19, 2003, 02:26:58 pm »

Excellent article Claire wrote on leadership and libertarians!  This topic is something most of us libertarian types need to learn to compensate for.

Leadership and organization is a very real problem with libertarian-minded folks.  I think it has a lot to do with temperament type.  As we saw in another thread, most people here are NT types... INTJ, INTP, etc.  In fact, NT types make up the biggest chunk of total libertarians.

The single biggest shortcoming of NT termperaments is that they are pathetically weak at logistics.  They've got great plans and strategies, but when it comes to putting those plans into action, they fall apart.  Yes, the NT types know where people need to be and when, but they skip over the part of the plan that involves exactly how a particular person is supposed to get they need to be at a specific time.  

"If we could get 500 posters up across the town, the advertising would be sufficient."  Well, who's going to design the posters.. who's going to print them, how much will it cost, who's going to post them up, which buildings are they going to be posted on, etc.  NTs hate thinking about that level of detail.. it seems so trivial.. or it's simply not thought of at all.

So, either we NTs are going to need to force ourselves to learn logistical planning, or we're going to need to hire/recruit other personality types where logistics comes naturally (SJs are one such type, though we NTs often are at odds with that temperament, ironically enough).

Whatever we do, we better do it sooner than later. (little logistical joke there.. :P)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 02:27:53 pm by mantispid »
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Claire

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2003, 04:50:58 pm »

Thanks, mantispid. I almost brought up our temperament type results in that blog entry this morning, but ran out of both time and brains.

I don't know anywhere near as much about temperament types and their ramifications as you do. But I'll probably bring the subject up in some future blog entry about women in libertarianism.

Anybody know what the most common temperament types for women are? I'll bet it's a drastic contrast with all the INTJ and similar babes hanging around here.

To keep this relevant to the point you're making above, here's a related observation (and an admittedly broad generalization) about why libertarians have such trouble getting things done in groups. In every volunteer group I've ever been involved with, much of the patient grunt work has been done by women. Women are in desperately short supply in the libertarian movement -- so you have fewer people who'll just plug away at the work and more who are ego-invested in (and constantly clashing over) the planning & strategizing.

So if few women are NT's, and NTs are not "get it done" types, and most libertarians are NTs, you have related phenomena influencing each other -- and not influencing for the better
« Last Edit: November 19, 2003, 04:52:16 pm by Claire »
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Hunter

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2003, 05:31:45 pm »

Leadership can come from the strangest places, and in the strangest forms. I hope you're planning to publish that particular set of maunderings somewhere. I think a lot of people out there need to hear that, and not all of them read your blog.
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ladylearning

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2003, 07:11:21 pm »

Quote
So if few women are NT's, and NTs are not "get it done" types, and most libertarians are NTs, you have related phenomena influencing each other -- and not influencing for the better

Remarkable.  Funny how things just come into focus at times.  Most of my life I've felt compelled to be the thinker/planner, AND the get it doner.  Lately I find that I'm happier if I just choose one or the other and that I don't have to do everything.  It's made my relationships with others much less strained and lo... I've discovered that MY way doesn't have to be the only way.  (even if it is the better way )
Hehehe, sorry... that just slipped out.  :unsure:
 ;)

LL
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Ted Nielsen

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2003, 10:07:54 pm »

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« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 11:12:43 am by Ted Nielsen »
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Hunter

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2003, 10:32:54 pm »

Well, Ted, that link provides a pretty graphic example of what Claire was talking about. Bozhe moi... that bit putting down virtual participation has got to be one of the most breath-takingly short-sighted statements I've seen in my life. Suuuure, piss off all the people who can't afford the time and money and loss of dignity to the TSA goonboys to come attend your little party. Now THERE'S a grand recruiting strategy, lad. <snort> Ah well, think of it as evolution in action.
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Ted Nielsen

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2003, 11:16:19 pm »

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« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 11:12:55 am by Ted Nielsen »
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Claire

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2003, 11:32:27 pm »

Quote
Ben Irvin at his best...
 :) Ben may not be a diplomat, but he does get things done while others are still wondering what to do.
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Claire

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2003, 11:44:01 pm »

Quote
Most of my life I've felt compelled to be the thinker/planner, AND the get it doner.  ... I've discovered that MY way doesn't have to be the only way.  (even if it is the better way )
 
 :) Ain't that a nice burden to lay down, LL? And a difficult one to lay down? So easy when you're competent and reliable to just do everything, rather than wait for others to come fumbling along.

The patience to wait for others and to lead, guide, nudge them along definitely isn't a libertarian INTJ-type trait.  :(

I'm in a volunteer group right now with a super-competent, hyper-reliable woman. She's marvelous to work with -- except that when things don't happen fast enough for her, she ignores that others have volunteered for certain tasks and does those jobs herself. Recently all the volunteers who were supposed to be collecting money from the donation jars we have around town stopped collecting & we couldn't figure why. Turns out that this woman was being so "helpful" going around emptying jars on her own ("only when they seemed too full to me") that all the regular volunteers decided they weren't needed.

Better to have a go-getter like her than a bunch of sluff-offs. But finding the ideal medium ... now, that's hard.
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

mantispid

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2003, 12:44:25 am »

Well, for those interested in temperament and leadership, relationships, parenting, etc... Please Understand Me II is a great book.  I highly reccommend it to anyone who will be leading or interacting with a diverse group of people.

The book is by David Keirsey.
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Jebur27

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2003, 06:19:02 am »

I think that the introvert part may be more important that the NT part.  Introverts tend to be more self-contained and, therefore, less likely to take directions welll from others.  From my experience, libertarians who are extroverts tend to become more involved/active with orgs like the LP.  Introverts, while they may play at the fringes of LP, probably do not get very involved or lose interest rather quickly (this has been my personal experience w/ LP).  

As far as the NT (or NF, for that matter), I think that this would be an advantage to a good leader.  A leader should be able to see how the parts fit into the whole (a characteristic of iNtuitive types).  The problem comes when the leader tries to figure how to make the parts work.  A good leader should pick others (preferable SJ types) to do the actual grunt work.  This attention to the details is SJ-Type's strong point.  Of course, we do not seem to have many SJ-types around here.  

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mantispid

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2003, 10:42:56 am »

Quote
I think that the introvert part may be more important that the NT part.  Introverts tend to be more self-contained and, therefore, less likely to take directions welll from others.  From my experience, libertarians who are extroverts tend to become more involved/active with orgs like the LP.  Introverts, while they may play at the fringes of LP, probably do not get very involved or lose interest rather quickly (this has been my personal experience w/ LP). 

As far as the NT (or NF, for that matter), I think that this would be an advantage to a good leader.  A leader should be able to see how the parts fit into the whole (a characteristic of iNtuitive types).  The problem comes when the leader tries to figure how to make the parts work.  A good leader should pick others (preferable SJ types) to do the actual grunt work.  This attention to the details is SJ-Type's strong point.  Of course, we do not seem to have many SJ-types around here. 

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Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform.
- Mark Twain
Well, the introversion does tend to make one more self-contained as you say.. but really doesn't preclude a person from activity.  It just means they don't like to be the people in front of the cameras.  The exceptions are the INTJs... who for some odd reason will take up the reigns of nearly any project if they think it is being done incompetently... and that includes forcing themselves to mingle and do public speaking.

I'm a big time introvert, and I've forced myself to learn public speaking, communication techniques, persuasion, etc... simply because no one else was at the forefront.  (Of course, I'm an INTJ.. so I suppose that is expected).

And yes, being an NT does make for a good leader... and you're right, any NT (or NF for that matter) would be wise to have a bunch of SJs around to handle logistics.  Of course, SJs tend to be somewhat rare in libertarian organizations... NTs and SJs are personalities that tend to be least compatible with each other (the abstract "let's test something new" NT, and the concrete, "tradition-above-all" SJ)...  That's not to say that they can't work together just fine, it just means that of all the personality types, an NT and an SJ will have the highest probability of conflict.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2003, 10:43:46 am by mantispid »
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"The root of all corruption is the willingness to violate the peaceful free will of others." -mantispid

Mantispid's weblog, "The Free Mind".

Carl

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2003, 11:10:25 am »

Now I know I'm going to piss some people off.

This thread epitomizes the libertarian version of the inaction problem. It's been my personal experience that only 5-7% of _any_ group -- libertarian, socialist, schoolkids, whatever --- ever take significant action to achieve their supposed goals.

In some groups, the majority simply never do anything. In others, they're honest enough to say, "I don't feel like it; let someone else do the work." Libertarians choose to endlessly debate "how many objectivists can dance on the head of a pin" to avoid action.

So you took a multiple choice quiz -- which I've taken for entertainment purposes several times and came up with wildly differing classifications each time, depending on my mood at the moment -- and gotten your alpha code. NT, NF, TJ, BS, ASPCA... So what?

Are you nothing more than the sum of your 'score' on a Internet, multiple guess, pop psych quiz? "I have an excuse for not acting; I _can't_, because I'm NX. Leave it to the NYs suited to that sort of thing"

So much for individualism and free will.

Forget your little psych ratings. Ask yourself this: Have I taken a significant _action_ (not debate/discussion/talk) to further the cause of freedom during the past year? If so, what was it? If not, _why_ not? Be honest with yourself, because you're the only one who sees your answer.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled pin dance.
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debra

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2003, 11:12:40 am »

FWIW, as an I*TJ, I loathe working in groups. BUT.... I tend to be a very good "team facilitator" (gag!).  You know, those annoyingly cheerful people who lead a small group and manage to get them to accomplish something despite their best efforts not to.

("That's a great point, Jim, and thanks for sharing. [writes on whiteboard] Now does anyone else have any ideas on how we can maximize our productivity? Julie?")

I bring this up only because it's a compromise between not wanting to lead, while still herding less ... er ... focused people into participating.
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Scarmiglione'

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Maunderings On Leadership
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2003, 11:34:28 am »

Oo! oo!... I bought gold (tiny amount, but still), built a bug-out bag, took on moderating Strike the Root's forums, bought some of Claire's books, started learning some basic carpentry (goal of self-dependancy) and continued my journey out of the credit system ( just two more years......).
I also donated to Free Market.net and Strike the Root and Bureaucrash.  And I got my Paypal account suspended and only do online transactions as anonymous money-orders.  And I made a pledge to break one stupid law a day, willfully and purposefully.  Usually it's just speeding, but it's the thought that counts.  Oh oh, and I bought toys for my daughter that are not appropriate for her age according to the packaging.  And I built a storage shed in my back yard without a permit.  And I rebuilt my deck and repaired my fence without permits either.  I'm a bad, bad citizen.  If only I could get my beer/wine production up over 50 gallons a year...
 
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