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Author Topic: Identifying yourself to the JBTs  (Read 3641 times)

Bear

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« on: January 02, 2005, 01:26:43 pm »

My understanding of the supreme court ruling regarding the rancher in Nevada
is that if I'm stopped by a cop on the street, he can require me to identify myself.
My interpretation of the present situation is that if I'm not driving, but just present
in public, I have to tell him who I am, but I am not required to carry an proof.


The JBTs underlying assumption is that everyone carries a drivers license.
I have one, but if I'm not driving, I'm not required to carry it.  If I were
walking to the library, I could show them my library card as ID. <snork>

I know we're only a short walk from making carrying ID mandatory, but do
I have the present stituation right?

Bear
 
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Docliberty

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2005, 02:37:53 pm »

That sounds right to me Bear, but I'm not a lawyer.
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"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on.  I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."  Marion Morrison

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Dull'Hawk

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2005, 03:45:22 pm »

An enforcer/jabbut pulled me over today, using the excuse that they were looking for a 13 year old who had stolen a white Ford Tempo (I was driving a white Mercury Topaz).  It didn't ask for any ID, and I didn't offer any.  I guess I didn't look like a threat (!) so I was let go without any question.  

Kent
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Bill St. Clair

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2005, 03:53:40 pm »

My take on the Hiibel case is that the Supremes ruled that it is not unconstitutional for a state or local law to require people within its jurisdiction to show ID if requested by a cop. If there is no such law where you live, you don't have to. If there IS such a law, you still don't have to (you don't really HAVE to do anything but die), but the courts will probably not help you if you are arrested for refusal.
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UnstructuredAgain

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2005, 03:54:21 pm »

Absolutely, it only refers to reasonably identifying yourself according to Nevada state statute.  You need not carry ID.  A name is sufficient, or so my trusty lawyer says.  They left a lot of these questions open for future cases.

Peace and Good Day
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UnstructuredAgain

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2005, 03:57:24 pm »

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Bear

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2005, 08:52:41 pm »

Quote
My take on the Hiibel case is that the Supremes ruled that it is not unconstitutional for a state or local law to require people within its jurisdiction to show ID if requested by a cop

Bill, I think this is the crux of the issue. I think that in such a place if I had ID on me, I'd be required to show
it, but if I don't have it on me, then not showing it is not "failing to cooperate". If they want to drive me back
to my place to look at my drivers license, they could, and waste everybody's time. I think they would get
tired of this game before I would.

Bear
 
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JustaCaveman

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2005, 11:01:55 pm »

correct Bear.  It's the name not the ID, unless it is a motor vehicle situation.  It's being debated heavily, but even if you did have your id on you, the ruling did not go that far.  it only said that it is "necessary" for the officer to expect a name, which means give your name.  id comes later.
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suijurisfreeman

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2005, 06:11:38 am »

Quote
Quote
My take on the Hiibel case is that the Supremes ruled that it is not unconstitutional for a state or local law to require people within its jurisdiction to show ID if requested by a cop

Bill, I think this is the crux of the issue. I think that in such a place if I had ID on me, I'd be required to show
it, but if I don't have it on me, then not showing it is not "failing to cooperate". If they want to drive me back
to my place to look at my drivers license, they could, and waste everybody's time. I think they would get
tired of this game before I would.

Bear
As for this suijurisfreeman here's the crux of the matter.  Ain't got no ID, haven't had any form of government ID since 1993, ain't ever gonna have ID again either.  Just carry a small pocket mirror on me and if asked to identify myself, I look into the mirror and say yep that's me.  I am not the property of the State, I do not recognize the obligation to wear any animal ear tags.  If I choose to tell LEO's who I am, I will.  If I don't choose to, I don't.  'Required" don't mean diddly-squat to me, been there, done that.  Back in March of 2002 while picketing in front of the Monroe County Courthouse Jerry Gee, Monroe County Sheriff pulled up in front of me and motioned for me to come over to his car.  I was sitting down on a park bench resting from all that picketing, shrugged my shoulders and just sat there.  Jerry got out of his car and said, "I told you to come over here."  I replied, "So."  He then asked, "What are you doing here?"  I replied, "Picketing."  Jerry then asked for my ID.  I told him that I didn't have any.  He then asked me to identify myself.  I told Jerry that I was under absolutely no obligation to tell him who I was.  He thumped his chest pointing to his badge and said, "I'm the Sheriff of Monroe County."  I replied, "So."  When Jerry finally calmed down and quit demanding that I identify myself, when I chose to tell him who I was, I did.  The funny thing is he already knew who I was - go figure!
Didn't have no stinkin' driver's license/ID when stopped at a Kentucky State Police roadblock back on May 22, 2001 either. Now that was an interesting 20 minutes of conversation after which I was 'allowed' to leave.
I personally could give a rat's ass less what the "Supremes' said, my claimed right to remain silent ain't based on any Constitution/Bill of Rights.  If I choose to not speak, I don't speak, I simply don't move my lips!  What they gonna do, reach inside my mouth and take the words?  :P
'required'? What 'they require' and what I'm gonna do are two different things.  'failure to cooperate'?  Yep Michael Smith had me charged with 'resisting and obstructing a police officer' (a felony in Michigan) back in 1994 when I wouldn't answer the nice policeman's questions.'drive me back to my place to look for my driver's license'? ain't gonna find it there!  :D
I guess I'm just goofy enough to say NO!
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rockchucker

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2005, 04:48:07 pm »

From Eugene Volokh
Quote
The question in today's Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court decision from the Supreme Court is: Once the police stop a person based on reasonable suspicion that he may be involved in criminal activity, may the police demand that he identify himself [...]

The Court's answer: "yes," at least so long as (A) the demand is "reasonably related to the circumstances justifying the stop" (which will almost always be so), and (B) there is no "substantial allegation that furnishing identity at the time of a stop would have given the police a link in the chain of evidence needed to convict the individual of a separate offense" (it's not clear how often this will be so). If condition (A) isn't satisfied, then the person's Fourth Amendment to be free from unreasonable seizures would be violated. If condition (B) isn't satisfied, then the person's Fifth Amendment rights to be free from compulsion to incriminate himself might possibly be violated.
I read that as a ruling saying that they can't just randomly stop you for no reason other than to ask who you are. What's interesting here is the 5th Amendment tie-in. If revealing your identity could lead to a seperate conviction, then it'd be self-incrimination, and so you don't have to comply. Well, that's how I read it. Well, we can easily imagine circumstances under which there might be charges levied against us, but we aren't aware of them.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2005, 04:48:43 pm by rockchucker »
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UnstructuredAgain

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2005, 12:23:46 am »

I'm just going to go away for a while.  Find the places where the JBT's aren't yet infiltrating society.  To hell with the cities.  What's the real answer?  I'm afraid there is none.  Billions are being spent on JBT tactics and it's unfortunate that there will come a time when we do things to sabatoge these things for our own individual satifaction if nothing else.  I will never again give my true name, nor will I carry ID.  I'll live like those that escaped the concentration camps or the ghettos/gulags back when technology made it a little harder to monitor folks.  Maybe I'm a big idiot, but that's where I'm coming from now.  I'll keep up on the news, but as soon as I move, no more postings on the internet.  Bitching about it only makes me angrier.  I'm well aware of the police state, the only recourse I have is to watch my back and try to live the happiest life I can.  Anyone interested can catch what I have to say in my books done in total secrecy.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2005, 12:24:38 am by UnstructuredAgain »
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Delos

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2005, 08:54:38 am »

Quote
I'm just going to go away for a while.  Find the places where the JBT's aren't yet infiltrating society.  To hell with the cities.  What's the real answer?  I'm afraid there is none.  Billions are being spent on JBT tactics and it's unfortunate that there will come a time when we do things to sabatoge these things for our own individual satifaction if nothing else.  I will never again give my true name, nor will I carry ID.  I'll live like those that escaped the concentration camps or the ghettos/gulags back when technology made it a little harder to monitor folks.  Maybe I'm a big idiot, but that's where I'm coming from now.  I'll keep up on the news, but as soon as I move, no more postings on the internet.  Bitching about it only makes me angrier.  I'm well aware of the police state, the only recourse I have is to watch my back and try to live the happiest life I can.  Anyone interested can catch what I have to say in my books done in total secrecy.

unreal,

Why not go with the suijuris approach, and just say, "NO!"

You don't have to run away and hide then.

I love the pocket mirror trick, too!
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UnstructuredAgain

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2005, 09:11:09 am »

I hear ya, I'm just getting tired of the city ya know.  I'm trying to find a place to just write, do my business, help my clients and have as little contact with JBTs as possible.  I'm getting a newspaper started as well, so through companies I can remain relatively anonymous, but it gets frustrating at times.  I'll need to get through that kind of stuff I know, and I will.  You guys are great, and yes indeed, Fuck it suijuris style.  I'd like to write a book about him, it would inspire a lot of folks don't you think?  I won't be totally offline, but there comes a time when I feel I'm talking to computer screens if you know what I mean.  As my motto goes:

Fuck em all watch em fall.  I've some good plans and hopefully you guys will see them come to fruition.  I think when I wrote that piece last night it was getting close to four in the morning, what wonders a little sleep will do.  But I always think it's good policy not to deal with the thugs unless necessary, and most cases aren't necessary to me.   Anyway, thanks for the support Delos, your words make sense.  As do suijuris's :)

Peace and Good Day
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penguinsscareme

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2005, 09:19:24 am »

Fair winds and following seas, USA.
You get that feeling too, like your computer talks to you?
Anyways, I can respect your decision, but I don't think I'll do the same.  It would be pointless anyway, there's already so much data on me.  And if something bad happens to me, I hope as many people as possible know me and know what happened to me.
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You do what works.

UnstructuredAgain

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Identifying yourself to the JBTs
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2005, 10:14:36 am »

True.  I'm not in any kind of trouble, it's more the eyes than anything.  I'll keep posting and trying to do what I can.  Anyway, you have some valid points.  Thanks again.  Hopefully, I won't be in trouble.  If there's anyhing I can do for any of you just let me know..  Computers have their limitations, I've always been that way.  Gotta take breaks from time to time, but not just yet.

Peace and Good Day
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