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[stainzblue]

Perhaps off topic but points were touched upon that make me hesitant to move to an unknown region like out West.  I was raised Roman Catholic and my wife was raised Jewish.  We are non-practicing now, but we both believe in something, some kind of order in the universe.  Our practicing acquaintances look down upon us (on some level I'm sure) as lost-souls or heathens.  Our non-practicing acquaintances probably view us as too weak to break the shackles.  But the dogma is the the chain that binds people, not the faith. 

There is nothing I would like more than to break free of the cesspool I live in in the Northeast.  My wife inherited a bit (no a lot actually) of Jewish paranoia and is truly afraid of living somewhere where she will be the only person of Jewish ancestry.  I see some posts here and there about people wanting to move out west seeking to live with other Christians.  When I see that my hackles raise also.  I have been exposed to too many Christians who are truly anything but that in thought and action.  I'm sure some of you know what I mean. However, I also know enough Christians that practice what they preach to keep me grounded in reality.

Her family (including her children from her first marriage) have essentially disowned her for marrying outside the tribe.  On the contrary, my family adore her and she has been considered a daughter without hesitation.  But my family is aging and growing up and moving on.  Each year there is less and less binding us to the land in the Northeast.  Not only do we want to make a change and move amongst more freedom oriented individuals, we need to break away for our sanity.  It would be easy to ge lost out in Wyoming or Montana because there is so much space.  Our trepidations are based more on not being able to blend in now matter how hard we try.  We know people that have moved "down south" and have raised kids there and even have grandchildren, yet they are referred to as "damn yankees."  Similarly, in our town where we spend weekends on our land upstate people like us are referred to as "flat landers." But in the almost four years that I have been visiting (and mostly reading) posts on this forum, I feel like I know so many of you.  Seeing your avatar is like seeing your face.  I have become a better and more grounded person because of this forum.  I yearn to be closer.

[MamaLiberty]

It would be easy to ge lost out in Wyoming or Montana because there is so much space.  Our trepidations are based more on not being able to blend in now matter how hard we try. 

Lots and lots of people have these fears when they come here - and before. It depends a lot on what you mean by "blend in," of course. Nobody is going to actually become THE SAME as those who were born and raised somewhere else, and I can't see why anyone would want to.

The community of people who are gathering here in Wyoming are from all over the country, Canada and a few other places. We share the heritage of non-aggression and self responsibility as the central "glue," if you will. All of the differences are far less important. And sub groups form, dissolve and reform as time goes on. We have a faction pushing for more political action - more than one, actually, for action in different ways. The largest number of FSW folks are neutral, just happy to be here and integrating well with their non FSW neighbors. There are frictions and disagreements, just as with any other gathering of human beings. Most of us feel that makes our life richer and more genuine because we are all free to make voluntary associations, work together with those we like and ignore those we don't like.

And, BTW, we do have a number of Jewish people in the FSW bunch - as well as Catholics and others. Some practice it, and some don't.
So far, it's not been a problem to any of us.

We don't expect to blend like flour and water in pancake batter. We are free to be who we are, and leave others to be free as well. Being the "same as" is not required for life and cooperation, by any means. Living and letting live IS.

Come visit Wyoming. Sit down and talk with some of us.  Seeing is believing.

[stainzblue]

Thanks Mama.  Blending in is a poor term.  I mean we desire to be accepted for who we are.  Fellow adherents of ZAP.  We may look different and sound different but we make good neighbors.  We enjoy the outdoors, dogs, firearms, and a hearty belly-laugh.  She finished her pre-reqs and will be getting her BSN in 2.5 years.  She has an MSW now but as you may know its a tough gig and does not pay well.  Maybe we can look into a good nursing program out there if you know any?

[MamaLiberty]

Thanks Mama.  Blending in is a poor term.  I mean we desire to be accepted for who we are.  Fellow adherents of ZAP.  We may look different and sound different but we make good neighbors.  We enjoy the outdoors, dogs, firearms, and a hearty belly-laugh.  She finished her pre-reqs and will be getting her BSN in 2.5 years.  She has an MSW now but as you may know its a tough gig and does not pay well.  Maybe we can look into a good nursing program out there if you know any?

Being accepted for who and what you are is a foundation principle of FSW. You'd fit right in if you follow the NAP and enjoy voluntary association with like minds.  Here is the FSW story in a nutshell... our official "FAQ": http://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=31047.0

At the BSN level and up, there's no reason she can't do the whole thing on line. That's how I worked my master's degree, and that was some time ago. I'm sure it's done little but get better since. She can do the clinical portion in almost any hospital or specialty clinic, usually where you work anyway, and there are some nice places here or just over the line in South Dakota - depending on where you find your sweet spot.  Have her look into it. Sure beats driving all over the place for classroom stuff.

[stainzblue]

Thanks Mama this is helpful information.  But I realize Wyoming is a huge state and I will probably be most comfortable in an area that is verdant like my home state of NY.  On our land in the Catskill Mountains I am familiar with the fauna and flora.  In a few weeks we'll be eating fresh blackberries growing wild all over the place.  There's plenty of trout in the streams and bass in the lakes.  I'd never have to buy firewood as there's plenty of oak and maple.  In a big state like Wyoming I'm hoping there will be areas with the features that I am familiar with, but I'm mostly interested in having to get as much of what I need from the land.  Protein, firewood, some fruit.  Another concern is water.  We have abundant rainfall, and we rely on rainwater for irrigation, hygiene, mixing concrete, etc.

We want to be with people sharing laughs, food, you know, just being good friends and neighbors.  We are social creatures yet also like adequate time to also be alone.  Yet we really don't want to be with people that are exactly like us.  That would be boring.  We just want to be with people that share the same values.  The tragedy of living in the Northeast is that we freak people out more and more with our lifestyle.  We spend a lot of time in a very small cabin.  We use an outdoor shower.  Upstate we are always within reach of a loaded gun, but we can't carry concealed or open except on our own property (and we have a huge problem with that.)  Although we know the problem is really everybody else and not us. But that sounds insane, doesn't it?  Being able to carry 100% of the time is a big deal, at least to me.  My wife loves horses and always dreamed of having one of her own.  Now I know that is one thing that would not only be feasible, but will probably even be practical in a state like Wyoming.

[socalserf]

When I took a trip to Wyoming I met quite a variety of people, Jewish, Atheist, Christians of several types, and
a couple of Orange County CA punk rockers.
The conversations around the campfire were just wonderful!
My impression was that the FSW folks are about as diverse as you can imagine.
Except for my family situation I'd have moved to Newcastle or Casper years ago.
Anyone who thinks they may want to move to Wyoming needs to make a visit and meet the people.

[MamaLiberty]

stainzblue, you may have to choose between "verdant" and freedom. Wyoming is a dry, harsh place and more or less hostile to any agriculture beyond cattle, goats and sheep in most places. That's a lot of WHY it is still sparsely populated and the rest of the country pretty much leaves us alone. We produce energy - coal, gas, oil... and trade that to the rest of the country for food and so forth.

The best places for farms and gardens are around Guernsey and the little towns in the South/east part of the state, but they are far from verdant, and they are all too damned close to Colorado for my tastes. There are farming areas around Riverton and the Green River area, but they won't be much like upstate New York, for sure.  Medicine Bow is beautiful, with wide forests, but the elevation is extreme in places.  You'll need greenhouses to actually produce much.  I grow enough in a few raised beds to provide a lot of my vegetables, but one good hailstorm at the wrong time can wipe me out. It's just one of those things.

But we don't have to dance to a million petty "laws," and are absolutely free to go armed, to defend ourselves. Our neighbors mind their own business and think guns are wonderful... everyone has a bunch of them. I'm not sure there's anywhere on earth where you can have it all.

[DiabloLoco]

stainzblue, you may have to choose between "verdant" and freedom. Wyoming is a dry, harsh place and more or less hostile to any agriculture beyond cattle, goats and sheep in most places. That's a lot of WHY it is still sparsely populated and the rest of the country pretty much leaves us alone. We produce energy - coal, gas, oil... and trade that to the rest of the country for food and so forth.

The best places for farms and gardens are around Guernsey and the little towns in the South/east part of the state, but they are far from verdant, and they are all too damned close to Colorado for my tastes. There are farming areas around Riverton and the Green River area, but they won't be much like upstate New York, for sure.  Medicine Bow is beautiful, with wide forests, but the elevation is extreme in places.  You'll need greenhouses to actually produce much.  I grow enough in a few raised beds to provide a lot of my vegetables, but one good hailstorm at the wrong time can wipe me out. It's just one of those things.

But we don't have to dance to a million petty "laws," and are absolutely free to go armed, to defend ourselves. Our neighbors mind their own business and think guns are wonderful... everyone has a bunch of them. I'm not sure there's anywhere on earth where you can have it all.

It looks like "stainzblue" is having the same dilemma as me, and most likely, MANY upstate NYers. Once you have lived in upstate NY, nothing else quite measures up, in terms of natural resources and beauty. I personally live in the Finger Lakes region. IMO, the most beautiful place on earth. It will be a trade off, I guess. Leave the high taxes and ridiculous laws, but have to settle for a less than ideal location in terms of water, land, game, arable land, wood...etc....etc.....Like I have stated before. I already have a great BOL here in NY. I feel that it is too late to set up a new one in a place that I don't know much about. 2014 is my target date for relocation. Assuming that TEOTWAWKI doesn't happen by then.

[stainzblue]

A greenhouse would be an acceptable compromise.  If there is enough water under the ground that will be fine also.  I like my long hot showers.  I guess we are spoiled by being able to heat our homes with free wood and driving down the road for fresh fruit and corn.  But freedom is really what it is all about.  I am choking here with statist regulations.

Hey DL, PM me if you ever want to meet up some time.  I am in Oneonta fairly often and not too far from Binghampton.

[MamaLiberty]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course. I find beauty everywhere I go - except in cities. But some people find more beauty there than in the wilderness. Each to his/her own.

Here is the scene from my back deck:

[MamaLiberty]

Here is a picture from the nearby Black Hills.

[stainzblue]

That is beautiful.  Anyplace devoid of buildings and people, statists in particular, is beautiful.  I would have a good time with my telescope out there for sure.  And my rifle.  How deep did you have to drill for water?

[MamaLiberty]

Water law and use can get complicated here. It is a scarce resource, for the most part, and the history of the fights over it go back to the beginning of territorial days. Here is a good webpage to read for the best understanding of the law and customs. http://library.wrds.uwyo.edu/wrp/90-17/90-17.html

I live in a rural area with a co-op for wells and water system. I have no idea how deep the wells are, but my understanding is that it varies greatly across the state. Indeed, it can vary greatly just across town. The water out in my rural area is clear, pure and wonderful. A mile and a half a way, at the edge of town, the water is not nearly as good. They tap a different aquifer.  Wells tend to be deep here, and it is not unusual for people to drill more than once before they get a functioning well. Just one of those things.

There are no large, natural lakes or rivers in Wyoming, and most of the best water resources are claimed and controlled - along with the best land - by either federal or state government. The upside is that they remain uninhabited and, relatively, unspoiled now. After TSHTF, they may well be a very good place to live.

For now, about the only thing in Wyoming that is guaranteed is the wind. Unless, of course, you plan to use wind to generate your power... LOL

[stainzblue]

My mantra is NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT WATER.  However, hydraulic fracking on the Marcellus shale ridge is putting our water in northeast PA and central NY at risk.  On my land upstate NY we will have to drill 1,000 feet.  I'm on top of a 2,200' hill.  But that will be water as good as anywhere on the planet.  The problem is that it will cost between $10 and $13K to drill the well.  I don't have that kind of money for the time being. 

Out west as long as I can get water Ill make it sweet with prefilters and reverse osmosis.  I'll use the discarded RO water for irrigation assuming I'll not be filtering out heavy metals and chemicals.

[jamie]

 A 1000 ft well only costs 10-13 thousand?  Are you sure of that? 

 I don't think most people born and raised in the east are all that happy in the west.  Just my impression based on some experience.  There is an article written by Mark Spungin, What is a Wyoming person, that might be worth reading. What that article talks about works anywhere in the west.

If you are that kind of person you'll do okay.


 My definition of west is Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado,Montana, Arizona and New Mexico. I would consider eastern Oregon and Washington. Utah, the Dakotas and west Texas are  honorable mention.

Spend all four seasons in a place first before relocating. 



As far as the Jewish question I doubt if anyone cares.  You would probably want to avoid some of the Mormon towns though.