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Author Topic: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine  (Read 8597 times)

TANSTAAFL

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2007, 11:13:11 am »

Nothing wrong with the convenience of interchageability

One issue worth mentioning is this:  A handgun can be very effective at well past 100, 200, even 300 yds with regular practice.

Last summer I fired a few thousand really hot (1900/2000fps) 357's through my 4 5/8" ruger blackhawk and at the end could consistently put 90% of my shots in a 9" circle at 250yds--

this year I bought a 5.5" redhawk (highly tuned) in 44---have only put 300 through it due to weather and have it dialed in consistently at 200yds---my guess is by the time I put another 2000 through it this spring I fully expect to be effective to at least 400 yds.

Give me a 357/44 carbine or rifle and within an hour I'll double the ranges of my handguns--say what you want about ballistics/stopping power but I'll tell you I would sure as hell not want to get hit with that 125 gr golden saber or 250gr hardcast keith at ANY range.

I am a big fan of big rifles that can reach out but when you spend your time in a territory where you are likely to be climbing as much as you are walking carryign a big rifle just sucks and can be outright dangerous when you are scooting up and down slopes with drop offs anywhere from 100 to over 1000 feet.

A handgun may not be a replacement for a rifle but with ENOUGH practice you'll quickly find that you can shoot better with a good revolver than 95% of the population can with a rifle.
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slidemansailor

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2007, 11:27:51 am »

Nothing wrong with the convenience of interchageability

One issue worth mentioning is this: A handgun can be very effective at well past 100, 200, even 300 yds with regular practice.

Last summer I fired a few thousand really hot (1900/2000fps) 357's through my 4 5/8" ruger blackhawk and at the end could consistently put 90% of my shots in a 9" circle at 250yds--

this year I bought a 5.5" redhawk (highly tuned) in 44---have only put 300 through it due to weather and have it dialed in consistently at 200yds---my guess is by the time I put another 2000 through it this spring I fully expect to be effective to at least 400 yds.

Give me a 357/44 carbine or rifle and within an hour I'll double the ranges of my handguns--say what you want about ballistics/stopping power but I'll tell you I would sure as hell not want to get hit with that 125 gr golden saber or 250gr hardcast keith at ANY range.

I am a big fan of big rifles that can reach out but when you spend your time in a territory where you are likely to be climbing as much as you are walking carryign a big rifle just sucks and can be outright dangerous when you are scooting up and down slopes with drop offs anywhere from 100 to over 1000 feet.

A handgun may not be a replacement for a rifle but with ENOUGH practice you'll quickly find that you can shoot better with a good revolver than 95% of the population can with a rifle.


Your Ruger shoots better from your hands than most would shoot from a Ransome rest.  You and that handgun are a special case. 

For normal people with normal guns, handguns are good from 0-50 feet before accuracy and terminal energy become questionable.  Shotguns are an excellent choice from 10-100 feet, maybe a bit more depending on ammo selection.  Carbines in pistol calibers are good in the 25-100 yard range. In the real world for real people, rifles in rifle calibers are far and away the best choice beyond 100 feet and the only realistic choice beyond 100 yards.
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Ire

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2007, 01:33:50 pm »

The idea has some merit...

But I would rather spend half my money on a real rifle round and the other half on pistol rounds, then everything on pistol rounds.

I dont see the point in limiting yourself to the ballistics offered by a carbine when you could have a rifle, just for ammo compatibility. I really dont see a lot of situations where compatibility would offer enough to cut yourself down to the carbine level.

Now, personally I like the M-1 carbine- I dont have anything against them. They do have advantages. BUT I wouldnt recommend using a carbine over a rifle just because of ammo compatability. If you were going to use a carbine because it is lighter, or has lighter recoil or whatever, then by all means, do it.

Just dont use a carbine for the single point that your pistol uses that same ammo.

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TANSTAAFL

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2007, 01:46:16 pm »

Nothing wrong with the convenience of interchageability

One issue worth mentioning is this: A handgun can be very effective at well past 100, 200, even 300 yds with regular practice.

Last summer I fired a few thousand really hot (1900/2000fps) 357's through my 4 5/8" ruger blackhawk and at the end could consistently put 90% of my shots in a 9" circle at 250yds--

this year I bought a 5.5" redhawk (highly tuned) in 44---have only put 300 through it due to weather and have it dialed in consistently at 200yds---my guess is by the time I put another 2000 through it this spring I fully expect to be effective to at least 400 yds.

Give me a 357/44 carbine or rifle and within an hour I'll double the ranges of my handguns--say what you want about ballistics/stopping power but I'll tell you I would sure as hell not want to get hit with that 125 gr golden saber or 250gr hardcast keith at ANY range.

I am a big fan of big rifles that can reach out but when you spend your time in a territory where you are likely to be climbing as much as you are walking carryign a big rifle just sucks and can be outright dangerous when you are scooting up and down slopes with drop offs anywhere from 100 to over 1000 feet.

A handgun may not be a replacement for a rifle but with ENOUGH practice you'll quickly find that you can shoot better with a good revolver than 95% of the population can with a rifle.


Your Ruger shoots better from your hands than most would shoot from a Ransome rest.  You and that handgun are a special case. 

For normal people with normal guns, handguns are good from 0-50 feet before accuracy and terminal energy become questionable.  Shotguns are an excellent choice from 10-100 feet, maybe a bit more depending on ammo selection.  Carbines in pistol calibers are good in the 25-100 yard range. In the real world for real people, rifles in rifle calibers are far and away the best choice beyond 100 feet and the only realistic choice beyond 100 yards.


I would have thought that too---except for the fact that in our tiny community i know and have seen 4 other people do the same or better with their own pistols....I am really starting to think that the really wide open spaces here (and the fact that 100 yds seems like nothing) have a lot to do with it since nothing is ever "close". And the constant practice.

What blows me aways is my 73 yr old friend who can push the tang site up on his 100+ yr old 45-70 and still hit a 5 gallon bucket at 1000. Antother neighbor took a really nice whitetail with his plain jane colt 1911 last fall at over 100 yds. One shot.

Who knows---maybe there is just a concentration of good shooters here--however having read some of Ed McGivern and Elmer Keiths works I know it's quite possible with the right amount of practice.
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Rarick

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2007, 03:55:52 pm »

A few more examples. I have a Marlin 1984 Carbine in .44 magnum. It comes in .357 magnum as well. And .45 Colt is the old original rifle/revolver shared cartridge.

Of course you can get wierd about it too. BFR makes a .45-70 revolver. :)

I found a 45-70 BFR at one of the ranges around my place.  The 45-70 revolver made my hands itch pretty badly, and the old wrists were sore for the next day or 2, definately a "training to fit the gun" issue.  I abandoned my Idea of a 45-70 set as far as rifle and revolver went.  A carbine, pistol set would be a good idea if you do not need a full power rifle cartridge (you are in the woods and not the long flats).  It extends your range and hitting power without having to practice intensively.  Since rounds are getting kind of short..........
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David Brown

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2007, 05:36:08 pm »

*
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 12:02:10 pm by David Brown »
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TANSTAAFL

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2007, 11:41:05 am »

Nothing wrong with the convenience of interchageability

One issue worth mentioning is this: A handgun can be very effective at well past 100, 200, even 300 yds with regular practice.

Last summer I fired a few thousand really hot (1900/2000fps) 357's through my 4 5/8" ruger blackhawk and at the end could consistently put 90% of my shots in a 9" circle at 250yds--

this year I bought a 5.5" redhawk (highly tuned) in 44---have only put 300 through it due to weather and have it dialed in consistently at 200yds---my guess is by the time I put another 2000 through it this spring I fully expect to be effective to at least 400 yds.

Give me a 357/44 carbine or rifle and within an hour I'll double the ranges of my handguns--say what you want about ballistics/stopping power but I'll tell you I would sure as hell not want to get hit with that 125 gr golden saber or 250gr hardcast keith at ANY range.

I am a big fan of big rifles that can reach out but when you spend your time in a territory where you are likely to be climbing as much as you are walking carryign a big rifle just sucks and can be outright dangerous when you are scooting up and down slopes with drop offs anywhere from 100 to over 1000 feet.

A handgun may not be a replacement for a rifle but with ENOUGH practice you'll quickly find that you can shoot better with a good revolver than 95% of the population can with a rifle.


Your Ruger shoots better from your hands than most would shoot from a Ransome rest.  You and that handgun are a special case. 

For normal people with normal guns, handguns are good from 0-50 feet before accuracy and terminal energy become questionable.  Shotguns are an excellent choice from 10-100 feet, maybe a bit more depending on ammo selection.  Carbines in pistol calibers are good in the 25-100 yard range. In the real world for real people, rifles in rifle calibers are far and away the best choice beyond 100 feet and the only realistic choice beyond 100 yards.


I would have thought that too---except for the fact that in our tiny community i know and have seen 4 other people do the same or better with their own pistols....I am really starting to think that the really wide open spaces here (and the fact that 100 yds seems like nothing) have a lot to do with it since nothing is ever "close". And the constant practice.

What blows me aways is my 73 yr old friend who can push the tang site up on his 100+ yr old 45-70 and still hit a 5 gallon bucket at 1000. Antother neighbor took a really nice whitetail with his plain jane colt 1911 last fall at over 100 yds. One shot.

Who knows---maybe there is just a concentration of good shooters here--however having read some of Ed McGivern and Elmer Keiths works I know it's quite possible with the right amount of practice.

Wow, you have some amazing stories!!!  Man you've convinced me.  I'm selling ALL my rifles and just getting a handgun.   ^_^

I'd advise strongly against that.

As I said, It is possible to learn to shoot a pistol as effectively as a rifle out to a lot longer ranges than most people think--not everyone can and most cannot simply for lack of practice which is understandable----I am fortunate as my situation and location makes it possible to shoot and extended session at least once a week and often 3-4 times a week when weather and daylight permit and I still have a LOT of learning and improvement ahead
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velojym

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2007, 03:22:17 pm »

Sure, if you were Elmer Keith...
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TANSTAAFL

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2007, 04:28:06 pm »

Sure, if you were Elmer Keith...

With that attitude you certainly will not. Knowing you can do something is the first prerequisite---then comes training and practice.

believe what you want guys---I did not come to brag or argue--just to share some experiences and input that seemed worthwhile.

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velojym

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2007, 05:10:24 pm »

Sure, if you were Elmer Keith...

With that attitude you certainly will not. Knowing you can do something is the first prerequisite---then comes training and practice.

believe what you want guys---I did not come to brag or argue--just to share some experiences and input that seemed worthwhile.



?

Please don't take yourself too seriously here. A sense of humor will get you a lot further than indignance.
I'm familiar with quite a few guys who shoot long-range pistol and have a great deal of respect for their ability.
I choose to use rifles for anything at those ranges, though I do try to work in a bit of 100yd pistol work when
I can.
There's also a bit of 'put up or shut up', which can be difficult to do at an online board, so folks who show up bragging
can easily be taken pretty lightly. You can take the civil route and get to know folks a bit better, or take the GK route.
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TANSTAAFL

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2007, 05:31:59 pm »

Sure, if you were Elmer Keith...

With that attitude you certainly will not. Knowing you can do something is the first prerequisite---then comes training and practice.

believe what you want guys---I did not come to brag or argue--just to share some experiences and input that seemed worthwhile.



?

Please don't take yourself too seriously here. A sense of humor will get you a lot further than indignance.
I'm familiar with quite a few guys who shoot long-range pistol and have a great deal of respect for their ability.
I choose to use rifles for anything at those ranges, though I do try to work in a bit of 100yd pistol work when
I can.
There's also a bit of 'put up or shut up', which can be difficult to do at an online board, so folks who show up bragging
can easily be taken pretty lightly. You can take the civil route and get to know folks a bit better, or take the GK route.


I agree--and you are right---been one of those days.
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velojym

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2007, 05:48:56 pm »

S'alright. Happened to me a time or three.
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islandphish

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2007, 01:14:44 pm »

I got to hold a PS-90 yesterday.  Holy moly that thing is cool.  I've recently been having this discussion and I think there are a lot of reasons to NOT have a carbine and pistol.  Most notably that carbines are kinda wussy.  But if you were not looking at getting them for a survival setting the PS90 and Five-seveN would be a sweet setup. 

Really high ammo capacity.  Ultra concealable.

pretty cool stuff.

For Katrina this would rock.
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Bear

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2007, 10:05:58 pm »

Quote
I to subscribe to the old idea of a handgun and carbine in the same caliber. For me it is the .357 mag, because I like the .357mag, and can also shoot .38 specials if the need should arise. I have the Marlin 1894C carbine and the Ruger GP100. Works well for me.

m.d. creekmore,

I have a Marlin 1894C on order. Should be arriving March 6th or so. I've been wondering what kind of revolver
to choose to go along with it. What do you think of the GP100?

Bear
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Tahn L.

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Re: Same cartridge for pistol and carbine
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2007, 10:20:09 pm »

I am not a great shot in my county but I can pretty regularly, hit a (privately owned) realtors sign at 100 yards with a 6" .45 revolver.

 I believe that J.E.B. Stuart was killed by a shot from a .44 cal at 300 yards. The shootist was a trained Sharps shooter, but used a pistol.

Elmer Kieth could shoot you flat dead at 400 yards with a .44 special 4" revolver. Fact. People that saw him shoot were asked if they would let him take 1 shot with his pistol at 1000 yards at them for $10,000.. Non accepted.

I believe that a Thompson Contender pistol in .223 with an auto range scope, worn in a shoulder holster, would be fine if the world goes to hell. It would make a fine rifle.
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