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[mouse]

http://global.christianpost.com/news/home-schooling-who-controls-our-childrens-future-113629/

There was a recent decision in a German court that ought to give every-freedom loving American the willies---especially because the same mentality can be found here.

The case involved a conscientious Christian home-schooling family. The judge ruled that the four children of the Wunderlich family---taken forcibly by the state from the parents last summer---are not to be returned to the family since home schooling is illegal in Germany.

snip

[MamaLiberty]

Doesn't, MUST NOT HAVE, anything to do with their religion.  The tyrants will control the future of the children just as long as the parents allow them to do so. When they get over the idea that any government has any actual authority over them, then they can regain control over their lives AND the lives of their children.

[Moonbeam]

How in the Sam Hill does that get their kidnapped children back?!?

[MamaLiberty]

How in the Sam Hill does that get their kidnapped children back?!?

How does what get their children back?

[Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.]

Doesn't, MUST NOT HAVE, anything to do with their religion.  The tyrants will control the future of the children just as long as the parents allow them to do so. When they get over the idea that any government has any actual authority over them, then they can regain control over their lives AND the lives of their children.

I know the ideological literature says that if you don't believe the bad guys are kicking your ass, they aren't kicking your ass.  In real life, however, if they are kicking your ass, all the prayer or "belief" that you control your life when you have little say in what gets done with you and yours... sorry to say but it doesn't cut the mustard.

As a matter of fact, i've come to the conclusion that telling someone "you pays your taxes and takes your chances" or "well, you can always keel over and die instead" are ridiculous copouts.  To assume that "surrendering and dying" is a "choice" is like saying that a device on your desk can "choose" to fail and be destroyed if its primary purpose and design is to continue its existence.

Humans are existence engines, whatever other choices we make, a fully functional human is designed to survive and breed primarily and above all other purposes.  We may "choose" to override the breeding mechanism (pills, surgery, etc.) but we are, if undamaged, primarily functioned to keep existing, surviving, living.  A human requires a significant amount of "persuasion" to become "convinced" to end one's own existence or engage in activities (willingly and knowingly) which are assured to result in one's own destruction or end of life.

As such, saying "keel over and die is your other choice" or saying "there's always a choice, you can always choose to die" is like saying that you can choose to stop breathing willingly and without assistance from tools or people.  You are not designed to end your own existence unless you are severely damaged, physically or mentally.  So lets drop this whole "you always have a choice."  If suicide or death was a "choice" then "coercion" would never have been chosen as the ideal way to "persuade" the unwilling victims of tyranny for so many millennia.

[MamaLiberty]

No, you choose to fight for what is right. Sometimes the outcome is death.  If you are all alone in that fight, your chances are not so good.

What these folks want is an exception. They're probably perfectly happy if everyone else is forced to do whatever, but they believe they should have an opt out because of their religion.  If there are enough of them, they might get that exception. If not, then probably not. But as long as people are content to allow the oppression on others, to create these "special" groups with privilege, it will continue.

You have told many stories on this forum about all the people in Romania who simply ignored the government and made their own choices in spite of everything. Not frontal confrontation, last battle type, but simply going around, under and over the obstacles.

So now you're saying there's no hope and we might as well all knuckle under? I don't believe it.

 

[Bill St. Clair]

Take my children and I go to war on your entire criminal gang. If I'm alone in that war, I'll probably die pretty early on, but I'll take as many of you kidnapping fucks with me as I can.

[DiabloLoco]

Take my children and I go to war on your entire criminal gang. If I'm alone in that war, I'll probably die pretty early on, but I'll take as many of you kidnapping fucks with me as I can.

+1

[Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.]

No, you choose to fight for what is right. Sometimes the outcome is death.  If you are all alone in that fight, your chances are not so good.

What these folks want is an exception. They're probably perfectly happy if everyone else is forced to do whatever, but they believe they should have an opt out because of their religion.  If there are enough of them, they might get that exception. If not, then probably not. But as long as people are content to allow the oppression on others, to create these "special" groups with privilege, it will continue.

You have told many stories on this forum about all the people in Romania who simply ignored the government and made their own choices in spite of everything. Not frontal confrontation, last battle type, but simply going around, under and over the obstacles.

So now you're saying there's no hope and we might as well all knuckle under? I don't believe it.

The newer generation of people from that part of the world are no longer that mentallity.  They were raised Americanish, obedient, worshipful of the state.  Once "jobs" and "freedom" came, they stopped talking with their kids and the "educators" became the only engine of information insertion into the kids' brains.  My compatriots are no longer even remotely my peers unless their parents still hated the tyranny as much as they used to in the old days.

(We all know "political freedom" bullshit, but hey, at least now they can watch 50 channels of TV to vege out when they get home, instead of having only the dictator's speeches on 2 channels, a half hour of cartoons and lots of family time to educate the kids and spend time with them.)

More to the point, I'm not saying "keel over" or "no choice" but I am also saying that attitudes such as the following are somewhat erroneous.  I will address once I quote.  Saying that dying is a choice, is simply mistaken.  There is almost always a reason to live (unless suffering terribly and then the choice may become a choice), even if that reason is "because that's how we are born."

Take my children and I go to war on your entire criminal gang. If I'm alone in that war, I'll probably die pretty early on, but I'll take as many of you kidnapping fucks with me as I can.

And I am here to tell you that going to war Carl Drega style is a waste of a good man or a good mind.  Your enemies are numerous.  If you go on a suicide rampage, you make the rest of us freedom loving folks look psychotic (even if you have good reason: "they took your kids" is a GOOD reason to get ta' fightin') and your kids will be raised worshiping the very state that you failed to defeat in a suicide run.

No, what will end this is concerted, covert fighting, if any fighting at all.  Remember the story of Vercingetorix and Julius Caesar in his Gaul campaign.  Vercingetorix could have had Caesar kissing his boot... if his peers had not chosen to "valiantly" attack rather than continue to deny Caesar the decisive head to head battle that Caesar's army required for both morale and progress in the campaign.

So let me rephrase your quote, brother (I have no children, nor do I intend to have such liabilities any time soon):

Take my children and I go to war.  Alone I will be that ghost in your machine, that Keyser Sose, the Candyman, the Freddy Kruger of your deepest nightmares.  You won't know when, you won't know how, but I will extinguish even the seeds of your loins before you even know I was there.  You took my progeny from me, you ended my line by brainwashing my offspring against my and their wills.  The scales will be evened, and not even death will stop me.  For I am many, and our name is Legion..."

Something like that.   I'm sure they all watched Storm of the Century on Sci Fi when it was out.

[MamaLiberty]

Nothing is forever. Our children ultimately control their own future, just as we controlled ours. Your mileage may vary... Utopia is not an option.

[Bill St. Clair]

Destin Feruda, yours is a much more reasoned response. Take my kids, though, and my response will not be reasoned. Suicide, maybe. Bad light on others, maybe. Swift and violent, absolutely.

[Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.]

Nothing is forever. Our children ultimately control their own future, just as we controlled ours. Your mileage may vary... Utopia is not an option.

Incorrect my dear.  If you are fed wrong definitions and the right ones are withheld, you cannot control something without proper knowledge or understanding of a subject.

Without proper words, there is no understanding/comprehension, without understanding/comprehension, you cannot truly control anything, least of all that of which your knowledge is limited or entirely lacking.

What the bastards do on both ends (religious statists and religious theists) is to deny any access to knowledge or to deny knowledge and claim belief as knowledge.  The downside is that theirs is a self perpetuating and very destructive idea virus of the worst kind.

Destin Feruda, yours is a much more reasoned response. Take my kids, though, and my response will not be reasoned. Suicide, maybe. Bad light on others, maybe. Swift and violent, absolutely.

Oh I'm sure you'll be far more direct and brutal, since yours would be a much more emotional response.  I have only ever had dogs.  The emotion is the same, however, regardless of the frequent (usually religion based) value arguments that a child is worth more than a dog.  To everyone, that which they cherish is the most valuable set of things around.  So I can attest to the fact that if anyone hurts my dog (without good reason, and my dogs are always mannered and properly restrained when risk exists, but very playful, so self defense is a non issue against mine), said aggressors aren't leaving my property.

Favorite line that applies: "You don't get it, those boys killed my dog!"  Good movie, too, especially the wrap up / ending.

[MamaLiberty]

Nothing is forever. Our children ultimately control their own future, just as we controlled ours. Your mileage may vary... Utopia is not an option.

Incorrect my dear.  If you are fed wrong definitions and the right ones are withheld, you cannot control something without proper knowledge or understanding of a subject.

How did you and I, and so many others manage to come to the "right" conclusions and choices? We've made very different choices than our indoctrination directed.   Nope... can't sell me that.  SOME will accept what they are told, but there will always be those who won't buy it and will look for better answers.  "The devil made me do it" is not a good excuse.

[Adventurer, Explorer, Inquiring Mind.]

Nothing is forever. Our children ultimately control their own future, just as we controlled ours. Your mileage may vary... Utopia is not an option.

Incorrect my dear.  If you are fed wrong definitions and the right ones are withheld, you cannot control something without proper knowledge or understanding of a subject.

How did you and I, and so many others manage to come to the "right" conclusions and choices? We've made very different choices than our indoctrination directed.   Nope... can't sell me that.  SOME will accept what they are told, but there will always be those who won't buy it and will look for better answers.  "The devil made me do it" is not a good excuse.

Last I checked, we either lucked out genetically or situationally.  We were born into families that weren't keen on worshiping slavery.  That's a big one.  Imagine, however, that you are born in a climate controlled facility and you never know, there is no mention of hot or cold.  All is controlled from your birth, you may have distant genetic memories of a time before this, but you know nothing of it from your environs, or education.  How would you know what is hot and what is cold?

Some, as with The Matrix, will refuse the programming altogether.  Not all, however.  Not even a majority.  Maybe a barely noticeable minority.  That is you, and me, and everyone else on this forum, for the most part.

[Bill St. Clair]

Favorite line that applies: "You don't get it, those boys killed my dog!"  Good movie, too, especially the wrap up / ending.

Indeed. I'm not anywhere near as fond of my dogs as I am of my children, but I understand that line completely.