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Author Topic: Destin's thread(biblical irony)  (Read 6399 times)

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Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« on: February 06, 2014, 07:47:32 pm »

What?! You can't read my mind?! :laugh:

I'm not referring to discussing controversial ideas in a relatively mature, productive way. I am not referring to the choices one makes to open carry, have children, be an atheist, or marry a person of a different race for example, that others might get all worked up about. I am referring to that decision to deliberately offend another person just to offend them. A personal example: my MIL is of Puerto Rican descent. While I was dating my DH one of my family members said, "Hey, is it true that Puerto Ricans are considered to be Spanish n*ggers by other Hispanics?" Why would someone say that? Ignorance? Fine. How about this: why call God [y'all know how important my faith is to me] derogatory names while discussing "religious" topics with me? That's the kind of behavior I do not understand.

** This is not specifically directed towards SILVER **

You know, its ironic to me, because I have always been bewildered by the deliberate failure of theologians to touch the whole "God Created" and immediately for the rest of the book "the LORD commandeth, doeth, sayeth, curseth, smiteth, etc'eth."  God left the book the moment he was done Creating.  The LORD walked in and has been commanding, smiting and punishing and talking opposite meanings and things which often defy physics and demanding all sorts of insane stuff without explaining it.  And in true fashion of tyranny over the mind of man, anyone who didn't obey unquestioningly was punished excessively, ruined, devastated and harmed.  With few exceptions, the evil doers were rarely punished enough, and the good men were rewarded too little.  The worship of government is immediate and total.  The LORD is disobeyed at all times, yet he embraces the sins and corruptions and cherishes them later.  (For example, in Samuel 1, government is shown to be abhorrent to "the LORD" and yet, after several books, "the LORD ordained government" and each tyrannical king is some sort of measurement of "the LORD's work."  Nobody sees the ironies there?  I've got Bibles in several languages, and have occasionally bothered to read comparable passages (some lack the numbers western / later versions were so fond of.)

There are mistranslations, etc.  The curious thing is that God Created And Saw That It Was Good.  After that, every seminary student and graduate will tell you that "sin entered the world." Very specifically "entered the world."  Really?  Wasn't CREATED, but ENTERED?!  From where?  It was a preexisting condition elsewhere and pre created elsewhere, thus it just jumped into the LORD's world and took a big dump on the front lawn?  HOW?  Explanations please?  That's pretty piss poor story telling unless confusing astute readers is the aim of that story.

After that there's that bit where Noah's boat lands on new shores and magically there's people again from which for his (correction:) the sons of his sons to take wives?!  Really?  That's some damn fast breeding after everyone having been magically drowned with a long duration Flood Spell.  Did the LORD run out of magic points before the spell could drain the last hitpoints from breedable female humans?

How about Lot?  Lot just randomly gets laid with his daughters and voila, we jump elsewhere?  That's more piss poor story telling.  And don't get me started on every faith based sermon requiring the taking of a snippet of a line which doesn't even make sense when using original words.  So yeah, people will get fairly hostile with Christians since Christians often vote "their faith" which means they foolishly jump for every Pharisee that proclaims lip service to their faith, which often even the one professing little comprehends, if at all, other than the usual "doing as you are told."  I mean, we get told how to vote in ambiguous, 501c3 approved terms every time we head to church these days.  I should know, I'm a sort of "Creationist" in that I love Creation, and I admire it, and seek to know and understand it, in the questioning and wanting to know kind.  I've seen too many people sold to the commies by their later "sainted" priests and preachers overseas.  Since so many of the missionaries from the states have some CIA backed or direct training, (and it gets outed occasionally) it is amazing Americans do not pay more attention to what gets said, what gets preached, and what the motives of the priestly castes are.  The "hostility" you perceive, Moonbeam is the same hostility those of us who inquired and were ostracized have faced.  Try defending the guy who was rational in church, against the scum who were living in sin and attacking the preacher for not kissing their asses.  The moment those sides are chosen over such petty bullshit, you get to see how "Christian" your fellow Christians are when they sabotage your livelihood left and right.  I've seen it, the names will remain hidden to protect my own self from the wayback machine.  I have loved ones and friends whose lives were destroyed by such bullshit infighting, just for backing the side that was actually in the right!!  So don't get me started.

Ironically Jesus questioned the Pharisees of his day, and whether you believe in the resurrection as a literal or symbollic thing, the seemingly provable historical part is that Yeshua/Yehoshua existed and was KILLED, and more or less provably so, for his rebellious, seditious teachings.  Nothing has changed, not even those who worship the Son, AS THE SON HIMSELF OPPOSED TO DOING WHILE HE LIVED!!  But then again, we can thank the Roman Pharisee equivalents for changing that around a century or more afterwards.  Then again, I'm probably on your black list from this point on having said that, and probably on the hit list of every cross bearing version of the muslim fanatic in the west.

As I said.  Nothing's changed.  And I still love you all, but I do not harbor any feelings of being able to save anyone.  You seek the truth, and if you need to "save" yourself from this "sinful" creation, remember that Sin predates the LORD, because it entered his world from elsewhere, and the LORD had to pay a blood sacrifice (of the human sacrifice kind of an innocent, which, as a matter of fact he does not forgive (Kings I & II.))  Again, either piss poor story telling, or we're dealing with two DEITIES.  One, a Creator who loved his creations, and another, an invader and dominator who shows up and gives titles and names and spends the rest of existence tyrannizing the Created in various ways, some good, some outright viciously evil.  (LORD is the English translation of the Latin Dominus, which is how the Latin version refers to wherever the LORD appears as a name, YHWH is separate and vanishes with scant few exceptions while the LORD appears all over, and the hebrew version, Ba'al by the way, appears all over the place.  Yeah, that's gonna mess with your head.  Coincidentally, that's why it is HARD to figure out which Ba'al they're talking about if they don't specify, Ba'al Tse Bub, Ba'al Shem, and don't even start on the meanings of Melek (king) which is thrown around equally ambiguously.)  And Dominus/TheLORD/Ba'al spent most of the old testament punishing the slightest disobedience with first being unforgiving of certain things, then forgiving all after sacrificing the ultimate innocent to pay some unknown equal or more powerful party who demanded a blood sacrifice to let the sinners go... very screwy lack of continuity, and very confusing "changes" in an unchanging God.  In Kings, for example, the LORD NEVER will forgive the sacrifices of innocents.  Later, the LORD sacrifices an absolute innocent to save sinners and suddenly forgives all if you pay some lip service that you "believe" in that blood sacrifice and a later resurrection of the sacrificee?  (Which also means that the party being sacrificed to was cheated, and the LORD was big on contracts up to that point.)

Yeah, freakin' confusing.  And the Hebrew and Latin versions are horrifyingly more so, being closer to the source and not so eagerly bastardized to a later language with certain "incongruities" attempted to be removed.  My coptic ain't so good, but we can get into some of those too.  Last I heard, however, writing theses on these subjects is grounds for immediate excommunication.  Yep, "open to the truth from whatever source it may come" and "god/truth/creator speaks through the smallest creature and the largest," yep, sure holds true.

I am still amused by people who quote lines and verse numbers as if rote memorization of that is somehow testament to the truth.  I say memorize how things work and the truth of things, the storyline, rather than random snippets that prove other random snippets in the same way taking a random algebraic equation to absolutely prove that X always equals five because that's what it means in that one equation, and anyone who saw X equal 4 in another equation are crazy and false.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 11:22:19 am by Destin Faruda »
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Moonbeam

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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2014, 10:07:00 pm »

I’m not sure how this will progress as I suspect that we’re both approaching this topic with vastly different biblical interpretations and experiences. Obviously I am not a theologian. I can only provide commentary on my (still growing!) understanding of such things. :)

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… "God Created" and immediately for the rest of the book "the LORD commandeth, doeth, sayeth, curseth, smiteth, etc'eth." God left the book the moment he was done Creating. The LORD walked in and has been commanding, smiting and punishing…

Well, which is it? You cannot have it both ways. [I do disagree with the Lord created then left belief.]

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…and talking opposite meanings

I’m not confused by biblical writings.

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and things which often defy physics…

The supernatural defies many things.

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… and demanding all sorts of insane stuff without explaining it.

I’m not sure I understand this point. In a general response I would say that as a parent I often instruct my children to do or not do something without offering explanation. I know what’s best for them and I have the capacity to see the “bigger picture.” They might think that my requests or actions are random, unfair or perhaps “insane,” but I do not automatically “owe” them an explanation for my decisions. Whether they choose to follow my “demands” is entirely up to them. They are at an age now where they are starting to understand that their decision – good or bad, has consequences.  They understand that when they choose to go against my “demand” that they will inevitably 1) get hurt; 2) get in trouble; 3) get hurt and get in trouble.

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And in true fashion of tyranny over the mind of man, anyone who didn't obey unquestioningly was punished excessively, ruined, devastated and harmed.

What is excessive punishment? What is ruin, devastation and harm? [I am not being a wise guy here.]

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With few exceptions, the evil doers were rarely punished enough…


Who were the evil doers? What would have been acceptable punishment in your view? Remember that those with faith believe that the worst thing that can happen to someone is a spiritual death; a complete separation from the Lord after physical death.

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…and the good men were rewarded too little.

Who were good men? What kind of earthly rewards do you think should have been afforded them? Remember that those with faith believe our ultimate reward awaits us in heaven; being reunited with Christ.

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The worship of government is immediate and total.

No, not at all. Daniel is but just one good example of not worshiping government.

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… yet he [the Lord] embraces the sins and corruptions and cherishes them later.

This is an absolute falsehood or a seriously gross misinterpretation of God.

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For example, in Samuel 1, government is shown to be abhorrent to "the LORD" and yet, after several books, "the LORD ordained government" and each tyrannical king is some sort of measurement of "the LORD's work." Nobody sees the ironies there?


No ironies here. The Lord made it clear that He did not want Israel to have a king. Samuel repeatedly warned the Israelites what would happen if they insisted on this. Of course, the Lord did take something that was corrupted and brought about something divinely good: Jesus.

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There are mistranslations, etc.

Who’s to say? [I am not being flippant.] I do not know that I would necessarily use the term “mistranslation.” However I think it’s fair to say that when the bible was being translated that some verbiage was perhaps lost as there were no words to cover some conversions.

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… that "sin entered the world." Very specifically "entered the world." Really? Wasn't CREATED, but ENTERED?! From where? It was a preexisting condition elsewhere and pre created elsewhere, thus it just jumped into the LORD's world…

Excellent question! And to that I have no answer! There are many things I ponder that are kind of difficult to wrap my head around. I imagine that many of my questions will not be addressed satisfactorily in this life because my understanding of certain matters is limited by human concepts.

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… there's that bit where Noah's boat lands on new shores and magically there's people again from which for his (correction:) the sons of his sons to take wives?!
Really? That's some damn fast breeding after everyone having been magically drowned with a long duration Flood Spell.

The bible does not provide us with the exact amount of people who were around by the time the Tower of Babel was built, but I believe it’s understood that the population at that time was located to relatively one region of the world.

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How about Lot? Lot just randomly gets laid with his daughters and voila, we jump elsewhere? That's more piss poor story telling.

Lot didn’t “randomly” sleep with his daughters; his daughters plotted a hideous act against him. That’s the end of that story. I’m sorry that you want to know more about that saga and it’s not available.

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And don't get me started on every faith based sermon requiring the taking of a snippet of a line which doesn't even make sense when using original words.

Huh?

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So yeah, people will get fairly hostile with Christians since Christians often vote "their faith"…

I don’t think that every person is hostile with every Christian – even for that reason.

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… which means they foolishly jump for every Pharisee that proclaims lip service to their faith…”

Agreed, though I would say that some foolishly jump…

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I mean, we get told how to vote in ambiguous, 501c3 approved terms every time we head to church these days.

Yep would appear that way. Of course, there are exceptions.

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Americans do not pay more attention to what gets said, what gets preached, and what the motives of the priestly castes are.

There are individuals who do and organizations that do tremendous acts of love to serve others in various capacities. I also think it’s fair to say that most folks are unaware of the source behind many of the nefarious organizations (governmental, social, and religious) that superficially promote goodness, but of course whose purpose is to confound, corral and conquer.

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The "hostility" you perceive, Moonbeam is the same hostility those of us who inquired and were ostracized have faced.

I understand the exasperation, the disillusionment, the frustration, the distrust, and even the outright hatred of organized religion. I share many of the same concerns. However, I recognize the difference between the bureaucracy of religion and the beauty of an individual’s personal relationship with Christ. I am truly sorry for the awful experiences some have encountered with the “religious.” I too have experienced my own negative incidents.  But, I cannot take up a broad brush to paint all persons of faith as being ignorant, indignant, sanctimonious and priggish. That doesn’t make any sense for me to do so.

What has troubled me is that some on this board seem determined to share some pretty odious posts regarding faith – just to be impertinent. I do not shy away from provocative thoughts or from the unpleasant experiences that others wish to share. What I object is the notion that any person of faith or specifically that all Christians are somehow responsible for the ills of this world, or at least many of them. I also object to the broad brush that is routinely picked up and used to assemble all Christians as being willfully ignorant, deliberately deceitful, and particularly self-righteous.

How many here believe that they are truly superior in their critical thinking, in their approach to life, and in their social, philosophical, personal, and world views simply because they are not a person of faith? A few I reckon’. The irony abounds.

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… I have loved ones and friends whose lives were destroyed by such bullshit infighting…

Many lives, many families, many organizations, and many churches have been devastated by infighting. The apostle Paul wrote about this repeatedly. Jesus addressed as much in the letters to the churches in the book of Revelation. The bickering over petty issues is distressing to say the least. It’s also not surprising.

I know some really awful things have taken place under the cover of churches. But, I also know that not all Christians behave so horridly. And not all churches are filled with the stench of hypocrisy, sabotage, bitterness and hate. There are fine folks and fine organizations who truly are God’s ambassadors on earth.

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… Nothing has changed…

No, I quite disagree. Jesus was/is the change.

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Then again, I'm probably on your black list from this point on having said that…

Why would you assign that assumption to me? When (and where) have I ever indicated that I do not want you to express yourself honestly? Have I not done my best to address your points of contention in various topics previously?

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I do not harbor any feelings of being able to save anyone.

I do not believe there is a member here who would argue otherwise with that.

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You seek the truth, and if you need to "save" yourself from this "sinful" creation…

I did find all the truth I need. No, I cannot save myself from this “sinful creation.” It was entirely up to me however to freely accept what Jesus accomplished.

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…and the LORD had to pay a blood sacrifice (of the human sacrifice kind of an innocent, which, as a matter of fact he does not forgive (Kings I & II.)) Again, either piss poor story telling…

If you want to explore this further I would need you to point out the specific references that vex you.

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Ba'al by the way, appears all over the place. Yeah, that's gonna mess with your head. Coincidentally, that's why it is HARD to figure out which Ba'al they're talking about if they don't specify, Ba'al Tse Bub, Ba'al Shem…

Baal does not “mess with [my] head.” As I understand it, Baal is in reference to the devil. Any idol that was/is named Baal such-n-such is in reference to the devil. According to God, all idol worship is devil worship.

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… very screwy lack of continuity, and very confusing "changes" in an unchanging God.

I just don’t see that concept at all in all my years of reading scripture.

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And the Hebrew and Latin versions are horrifyingly more so, being closer to the source and not so eagerly bastardized to a later language with certain "incongruities" attempted to be removed. My coptic ain't so good, but we can get into some of those too.

Nope, my Coptic ain’t so good either! I have always been curious about the various translations. On the one hand, I realize that it is man’s interpretations giving us these many versions so perhaps key words have been omitted because there were no English words to replace the Greek and Latin ones. On the other hand, reading various versions gives me a better understanding of a particular paragraph, chapter or book. I consider scripture to be the inspired word of God.

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Last I heard, however, writing theses on these subjects is grounds for immediate excommunication.

Huh? Who is doing the excommunicating? And what exactly would the charge be?

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Yep, "open to the truth from whatever source it may come" and "god/truth/creator speaks through the smallest creature and the largest," yep, sure holds true.

I do not know what you mean here. For me, I am not open to “whatever source” as many claim to have the truth, but not only don’t they have it, they are deliberately misleading folks. I am very careful about such things. I pray a lot for guidance and understanding.

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I say memorize how things work and the truth of things, the storyline, rather than random snippets that prove other random snippets in the same way taking a random algebraic equation to absolutely prove that X always equals five because that's what it means in that one equation, and anyone who saw X equal 4 in another equation are crazy and false.

I understand what you mean.

:)
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 05:38:03 pm »

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… a book written by people looking to create the first government…

During the time of Moses, the Hebrews did not have a government, one of several factors that differentiated them from other cultures, societies, and kingdoms. During the time of Samuel they asked the Lord to provide a king for them. Up until then, judges and priests were the arbitrators, if you will between them and the Lord. God was supposed to be their King because they were set apart from other kingdoms. Samuel repeatedly warned the Israelites what would happen if they insisted on having an earthly king. So no, the Hebrews did not create the first government.

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… and ensure a life free of real work or honest production for the remainder of human history, for them or those exactly like them.

And:

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I seem to recall that most of the people quoted in that book as holy did not actually earn a living. They were "granted" a living and people were paying to see them. That makes them eating free.

I would like to understand your perspective as you did not answer Knobster’s question. Where in the *Christian Bible* does it state that “they” (by the way, who are “they”?) are not required to a life of “real work or honest production”? Are you suggesting that it’s implied? If so, this changes the whole conversation!

I know many missionaries who do not “earn a living.” They are supported by their home church, individual donations or charitable organizations. I don’t understand why it bothers you how others decide to spend their own money? This also ties into:

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First off, you are to pay 10% before all else from your earnings to your church.

And:

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Meat and tasty bread for the rabbi, dry matzos for the suckers who believe that tripe.

There were different kinds of offerings that the Israelites submitted: burnt offerings, grain offerings, fellowship offerings, ordination offerings, guilt offerings, and sin offerings. It makes perfect sense to me that the Lord would require the priests to be taken care of as they were the liaisons between God’s people and God Himself. The requirements for the priests to be holy are rigorous and full time. The numerous laws we see in the Old Testament were written for the Israelites, as they were set apart from other cultures. In more modern times, Christians are not required to follow all the Mosaic Laws in order to have access to God. However, it does behoove us to be generous in our tithes and offerings:

“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.” {Malachi 3:10)

“Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."(Luke 6:38)

Now, had folks followed the instructions of God by giving to their various spiritual and/or charitable organizations, then those foundations would be able to take care of the pressing needs of their neighbors and communities and by golly, perhaps the so-called “war on poverty” and special IRS status granted them would be non-existent to name a couple of examples.

There are other ways aside from financial giving in which a person (or group or organization) can bring glory to God. I am of the opinion that these contributions are personal and shouldn’t be definitively defined by any other person.

“Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, ‘Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.’ He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. ‘Leave her alone,’ Jesus replied. ‘It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.’” (John 12:1-7)

This was about Mary being moved enough to offer her best perfume for her Savior. It was a selfless act of love. No one told her to do this, and no one had the right to tell her not to do this. What can be extrapolated from this example is that our contributions should come from a place of genuine humbleness; without expectation of acknowledgement or appreciation or reciprocation; and that we are called to listen and obey the instruction of the Holy Spirit, not some generic spouting being done from a bully-pulpit.

Back to the other point. Are priests corruptible? Sure:

"And now this admonition is for you, O priests. If you do not listen, and if you do not set your heart to honor my name," says the LORD Almighty, "I will send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me. "Because of you I will rebuke your descendants; I will spread on your faces the offal from your festival sacrifices, and you will be carried off with it. And you will know that I have sent you this admonition so that my covenant with Levi may continue," says the LORD Almighty. "My covenant was with him, a covenant of life and peace, and I gave them to him; this called for reverence and he revered me and stood in awe of my name. True instruction was in his mouth and nothing false was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and turned many from sin. "For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction--because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty. But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi," says the LORD Almighty. "So I have caused you to be despised and humiliated before all the people, because you have not followed my ways but have shown partiality in matters of the law." (Malachi 2:1-9)

Is it really a surprise that mankind is capable of great selfishness and evil?

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But should you say "just a book," they'll lynch you, or go after your livelihood or worse. And there's nothing any of them can say to disprove what I just said.

What in the sam hill are you talking about?!?

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Prophets were never listed as working, they were listed as prophesying, only. What did they do productively besides hoodwink suckers and work for the government keeping everyone suckers?

The prophets were often mocked, ridiculed, ignored, banned, hated, spat upon, cursed, beaten, imprisoned, threatened with death, and murdered. Amos and Micah coming from humble backgrounds were poor, rural farmers; Uriah was murdered; Jeremiah watched his beloved city be captured and burned; Isaiah was deeply troubled by some disturbing prophecies; Daniel was taken into captivity and was thrown into the lion’s den; Ezekiel laid in his left side for over a year, then on his right side for 40 days. He ate bread he made himself using human excrement as fuel to bake it; Hosea married a prostitute who continued prostituting; Obadiah risked his life to hide holy priests from Jezebel, a wicked queen; Jonah was swallowed by a whale; Nahum traveled to one of the wickedest cities ever; Habakkuk’s heart grieved heavily; Haggai lived among apathetic people; Zechariah returned to his destroyed homeland with a remnant of captives; Malachi rebuked the remnant and the priests; Nehemiah helped restore the Jerusalem walls, addressed the decayed social conditions, initiated economic reform and led a movement to return to their cultural traditions – only to see the Holy City relapse in a few years, then again he implemented a plan of prayer, study, and community values that help restore Jerusalem again; upon hearing the news of Israel’s unfaithfulness Ezra was so grieved he tore his clothes and pulled hair from his head and beard; Zechariah was temporarily struck mute; Zephaniah  criticized the civil and religious leaders; Elisha empowered through God performed many miracles such as when a group of prophets were suffering from the famine he was able to feed them. When not living with the other prophets, he stayed in a room with a married couple; Elijah at one point had to hide in a ravine relying on ravens to bring him meat and bread; John the Baptist was beheaded; Jesus was crucified; and pretty much all the disciples and apostles were martyred.

I would hardly consider their lives as being glamorous, or easy. Some may have been counselors to kings, many sharing the message of God to their own peril. However, they were not governmental workers or lackeys – they were righteous men who answered only to God’s authority. As for hoodwinking “suckers,” I suppose if that were true then the Israelites would have not have suffered and Jerusalem would not have been destroyed.

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As for the "christian bible" you forget. Its biblia. Literally, BOOK in latin. Has NOTHING to do with "bible" that's just more ignoramus nonsense that has become policy.

Huh?!?

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More importantly, that ignoramus nonsense is forced down your throat.

What are you talking about? Who is forcing it down? And upon whom?

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Secondly, very few preachers have honest, productive jobs (not state jobs, mind you) outside their jobs as preachers.

What do you consider acceptable, “productive” jobs for preachers – in addition to their ministry? I wouldn’t expect a righteous pastor to have a job outside of ministry. I’d imagine many a preacher would have a lot to share with you about what their pastoral job entails. I dunno, DF, your remark kind of reminds me of folks who don’t think being a stay-at-home Mom is “real work.”

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Thirdly, that commandment to work is for you and me, not those running the church.

Where is that commandment for you and me and not those running the church?

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They live blessed lives…

Referring to the Godly folks of course depends on a person’s definition of blessed.

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and will react poorly if you challenge the state, their beloved second God from whom their real blessings come.

Some are greatly ignorant and/or confused about the role of government – that certainly is not isolated to the church. Real blessings do not come from the state, DF, they flow from God.

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I don't deny that many honest and honorable people go to church and donate.

Excellent!
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Freedom is not being able to do what you want to do; freedom is being able to NOT do what you don't want to do.

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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2014, 12:52:56 pm »

What bugs me is the decidedly aggressive nature of modern christians.  Not showing through example and behavior but showing through words and hammering it into you.

I am bothered by the aggressive nature of any person, no matter their self-proclaimed affiliation!

Ironically enough, Jesus is said to have preached specifically against praying in public and called frequent prayer in public a hypocritical behavior.

Not exactly. The take away from many of the stories in the Bible is the attitude, the heart, the intent of the person. What Jesus railed against was the smugness of those who were performing spiritual acts outwardly, but whose hearts were turned against the Lord. Their flamboyant performances were an attempt to elevate their so-called greatness for themselves, and to make the “peons” feel guilt and shame for not being as “spiritually great” as they were. We see this same basic attitude in the politicians today. There is absolutely nothing wrong with me and my family to quietly offer a prayer to the Lord while say dining out in public or at the park enjoying a picnic.

They simply live by that example of being good to your fellows and your neighbors.  And when asked, THEN they share.  Those people won me over by the fact that they were gentle and uplifting rather than hammering hellfire and damnation into me.
 

See, there are good examples out there! :)

Told them, "you tell me God is just and then that I will be punished for a crime committed by some guy thousands of years ago?

I don’t follow.

DT 24:16, EZ 18:19-20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins."


A father or mother cannot be killed because of a sin their child committed, like murder for example. Conversely a child cannot be killed because of a sin their parent(s) committed. Like Ezekiel 18:20 states: “The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.” If my neighbor murdered his wife, why would his children receive capital punishment?

Which of course contradicts with these: EX 20:5, 34:7, NU 14:18, DT 5:9, IS 14:21-22 Children are to suffer for their parent's sins. But I didn't bring that contradiction up.
 

It’s not a contradiction and it’s not referring to babies, or toddlers or young kids. Often entire households and generations did evil in the eyes of the Lord. The verses you reference are about those who worship idols and perpetrate evil continuing in the footsteps of their parents. This is not in reference to those who love the Lord and follow Him despite their parent’s evil doings.

Isaiah 14:1-23 is a very specific prophecy against Babylon. Moreover, verses 12 through 15 indicate a prophecy regarding Satan. Is it really that difficult to understand generational evil when we have Saddam Hussein’s sons, Uday and Qusay, and Kim Jong-il’s offspring as modern day examples of great horror? Or perhaps the Rothschild, Rockefeller, Bush and Windsor dynasties fits the bill of generational evil?

Or this one: RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam.

This is referring to sin, which leads to spiritual death. Christ has redeemed us [available to all who believe and accept the free gift of salvation] from that eternal separation from God.

And this... yeah, this one made me sick to my gills... JE 32:18 [You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the LORD Almighty.]

As Jeremiah was praying from his prison cell [referenced above] he was acknowledging the power of God and the recognition that God was righteous in causing punishment to come upon them for their wickedness. The king’s sons were continuing the evil of their fathers. Sons and daughters were going to continue doing evil, the same as their parents, in the eyes of the Lord. And so on and so on and so on. God cannot tolerate evil.

Or this one:  PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true. JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word of God.

The messages of the Lord have been proven true, and continue to be proven true. Prophecy after prophecy has been fulfilled, is in the process of being fulfilled, and will be fulfilled. If I tell a truthful, accurate and reliable autobiography about my life, but an editor falsifies my words so as to manipulate others for his personal gain does that mean that I was not truthful? Or does that mean that he was a lying, evil bastard? Some of the “wise” men of that day were lying weasels. There have always been lying weasels and there will always be lying weasels, but I don’t think I am revealing a surprise here. Do not the rich men and politicians today believe that they are wise when in reality they are a bunch of backasswards, lying, morally-bankrupt, brain-dead, evil asshats?

JE 20:7, EZ 14:9, 2TH 2:11-12 God himself deceives people.  (Later it has been changed (english versions mostly) to persuade...

In Jeremiah 20:7-18, Jeremiah was having, if you pardon the expression, “a come to Jesus” moment with God. He was beaten and imprisoned because royalty did not like what he was prophesying. God had said what was going to happen to Jerusalem, to the king of Judah, and to the Jews. But, the punishment did not happen right away (God is patient) so the folks began to mock Jeremiah and Jeremiah was beginning to lose heart that God would come through with His promises (of course, He did). Jeremiah was not lamenting about actually being deceived by God; Jeremiah was expressing his concern over God’s delay in judgement. Oh, and my NIV has deceive, not persuade.

Ezekiel 14:9 is about the condemnation of idolatry.

2 Thessalonians 2 was written by Paul to the Christian Thessalonians to squelch a rumor that he had authored a letter stating that the Day of The Lord had already taken place. Verses 11 and 12 are part of the prophecy of the end times. It is referencing those who are deceived by Satan himself by counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders (verse 10). God does not intervene because they “refused to love the truth and so be saved” (verse 10) and because they “delight in wickedness” (verse 12).

Also pointed out: MT 5:22 Anger is a sin, depending on what you say in anger you're either reprimanded by the jewish leadership or burning in hell.

“But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court [Sanhedrin]. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell’.” (Matthew 5:22 NIV)

Raca, in both Aramaic and Hebrew means empty-headed or worthless. Jesus is telling us that the name caller is angry without just cause and is persistent in pursuing the innocent person. This could result in an assault, which would result in charges and judgement issued by the court of that day, the Sanhedrin. 

In Hebrew, “fool” is Naval. This attack is particularly nefarious because as we read in Psalm 53, a fool (Naval) “hath said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.” And, “God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

We see that the wicked does only abominable deeds and is rejected by God. When one says these things of another, he is in essence pronouncing judgment, usurping a place and a position of judgment that belongs only to God, and in doing so, he is placing himself in danger of eternal judgment. The Rabbis’ definition of an atheist as one who affirms there is no judgement and no Judge, regardless of their disbelief in the existence of God.

Note the increase in the order and severity of both the crime and punishment in the passage. The person uttering the insult has let a little pebble (a perceived slight, jealousy, resentment, etc.) fester into a boulder in his heart. The message that Jesus is sharing here is that only God knows the true heart and intent of a man and it behooves us to not assume that judgment for others.

There are levels of evil. There are levels of "temptation."

Will you please clarify?

Its one thing to have impure thoughts, and here I digress from Jesus' teachings: BUT IT IS ANOTHER THING TO DO IT TO SOMEONE ELSE OR SOMEONE ELSE'S STUFF!

Where do you deviate from Christ’s teachings?
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DF on Religion
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 11:58:11 pm »

No, DF, I was not just referring to the final destination of my soul. I thought what I wrote was sufficient enough to convey that I was referring to death of my physical body.  You are welcome to your own opinion, but you are not welcome to tell me what I was/am thinking and feeling, and know to be true for my own life.

Has nothing to do with your feelings.  That is you projecting something on my intentions.

What I mentioned is my "opinion" quite informed out of a lot of reading on the subject and various historical perspectives, some predating the bible and having influenced its writers and editors, referring to the "your faith has healed/saved" you.

Obviously you can't "buy" your way into "heaven" or "the afterlife" simply because there is no cashier anyone knows of... except whoever Jesus was sacrificed to appease... and if that "whoever" required a blood sacrifice of a perfect innocent, we can safely assume that no amount of good deeds would impress such a being anyways.

So given what the man said while he lived, one assumes that what you believe is your only currency for the afterlife business.  There is some research into this, some of it anectodal, by the way, that even in this life (as Tipitaka and Diablo have both said in the past) you influence outcomes via your inner held beliefs.  If you set out to do something and see failure as your only outcome... you will come out failing.  Same deal here... just magnified a few times fold.

You are welcome to be offended, but I don't care about offenses and feelings.  I care about mechanics.  How things work.  Hate to tell you this and that, since faith is a matter of emotion and not a matter of logic for most people, but I hold, for myself, that any creator being who loves his children/offspring, would seek to be consistent.  Any loving parent will be consistent and fair with his children... moreso when its the perfect parent, the originator of love and creation.

Granted, the old testament is full of unfair treatments of various people, double talk and double dealings, but we can chalk that off to writers who put their feelings onto the one they were writing about... or just outright liars.  There are several spots where its mentioned that scribes alter the Word to suit themselves.  And I believe its either in Ezekiel, or somewhere within a book or two of there where The Lord mentions the commandments were never meant to be obeyed.

Then there's that " Children should never be punished for the sins of their parents."  (Pretty sure that was Elijah's period.  I don't do verse numbers often since those were not in the original versions, and should be seen as the aberration they are.)  Of course, not punishing children for the sins of parents flies in the face of the fact that The Lord's been doing that throughout the entire OT.  Told Adam not to eat of the fruit, THEN created woman, and there's no mention of her being told not to eat the fruit, and wham... she talks the first dummy into chowing down on what amounts to a recombinant telomere shortening weaponized piece of fruit.  And we've been dying ever since. 

Precisely:
DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.
RO 5:12, 19, 1CO 15:22 Death is passed to all men by the sin of Adam.

Punished for his sin, and guilty from birth, and there's no shortage of The Lord mentioning this in the OT or the NT.  So there is a consistency problem, and its usually more visible in the King James, since its pretty well translated.  The Latin versions and the post Latin translations use the local version of "god" and miss the whole Ba'al (Lord of, in hebrew) vs YHWH (actual name for God... actually God.)  It would appear if one separates The Lord and YHWH, they are two entirely separate beings, not to mention the unmentioned being who created Sin, and is therefore at least on equal footing with The Lord (we don't know if that being is YHWH) but ended up ruining The Lord's rule over YHWH's creation.  This is a discussion that cannot be had with the religious devotees who do not research their own faith historically.  However there is no account of SIN being created, however SIN "entered the world" and ruined it for everyone, and the only way The Lord can fix it is to beget a child, and destroy it after it lives a blameless life.  The Lord himself sends his child through the fire, so to speak, exactly as the Ba'al and Molech worshipers were said to have done which The Lord really hated and condemned (the Sumerians kept remarkably intact records and none mention these alleged rituals.)

I am posting it here for the benefit of those who are willing to research their own faith, or that of those who vote their faith (which actually means "they do as they are told by their talking heads, on pulpit or TV.")

I have once asked someone who told me God talked to them.  "How do you verify that it is indeed God, and not an impostor."  When they tell me they consult "the Word" I mention that in several spots The Lord confesses to A, the scribes messing with stuff in the Word, and B, The Lord messing with stuff in the word.

Here's a taste of strange incongruencies and consistencies in what should be 100% always consistent.

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
NU 14:30 God breaks his promise.

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
1KI 22:21-23 God condones a spirit of deception.

EX 34:6, DT 7:9-10, TS 1:2 God is faithful and truthful. He does not lie.
2TH 2:11-12 God deludes people, making them believe what is false, so as to be able to condemn them. (Note: some later versions use the word persuade here. The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

(I won't include exact KJV or NIV for all but here's a taste since this one's a perfect example:
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
)

EX 34:6-7, JS 24:19, 1CH 16:34 God is faithful, holy and good.
IS 45:6-7, AM 3:6 God is responsible for evil.

EX 34:6-7, HE 9:27 God remembers sin, even when it has been forgiven.
JE 31:34 God does not remember sin when it has been forgiven.

LE 3:17 God himself prohibits forever the eating of blood and fat.
MT 15:11, CN 2:20-22 Jesus and Paul say that such rules don't matter--they are only human injunctions.


I'm not telling you what to believe, I'm simply saying that I am an inquisitive mind, I can't help wanting to know HOW things work, WHY things work.  Blame creation for that.

What you believe is your business, and that was exactly the point I was making.  Your beliefs decide your fate.  Outside gods don't even enter into it.  And while the Bible, like most holy books has shreds of old school evidence still included, one can safely assume most such documents have been doctored and altered to provide a good living for various tyrants who lived well off the faithful.

And please, don't ever bring "feelings" into a logical, rational argument.  Feelings are conditioned or inherited impulses, some guarantee a better chance at survival (fear for example) while others are simply conditioned responses which would deny one a chance at staying alive very long in a world not rife with people enabling the unsurvivable to survive and breed the rest of us out the way weeds breed out beneficial food plants.



And here's some food for thought.

NU 11:33 God inflicts sickness.
JB 2:7 Satan inflicts sickness.

NU 15:24-28 Sacrifices can, in at least some case, take away sin.
HE 10:11 They never take away sin.

NU 25:9 24,000 died in the plague.
1CO 10:8 23,000 died in the plague.

NU 30:2 God enjoins the making of vows (oaths).
MT 5:33-37 Jesus forbids doing so, saying that they arise from evil (or the Devil).

And this one's a total bonker.  Explain this one if you will:

DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21 God is sometimes angry.
MT 5:22 Anger is a sin.

And to take it a few steps further, explain these, too.  To me God, the Creator makes sense.  A loving father, rather than a tyrannical clumsy brute of a father makes sense.  My own father didn't get much done with me via violence and force.  Reasoning with me and being consistent would have accomplished far more.  Each time he used them, he got somewhere with me.  I may not be the average bumpkin, but I doubt many on this board are, either.

So, here's my last few paraphrases, feel free to research the texts.  And tell me which is true and which is not.

DT 30:11-20 It is possible to keep the law.
RO 3:20-23 It is not possible to keep the law.

2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.
1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.

1KI 8:12, 2CH 6:1, PS 18:11 God dwells in thick darkness.
1TI 6:16 God dwells in unapproachable light.

2KI 2:11 Elijah went up to heaven.
JN 3:13 Only the Son of Man (Jesus) has ever ascended to heaven.
2CO 12:2-4 An unnamed man, known to Paul, went up to heaven and came back.
HE 11:5 Enoch was translated to heaven.

2KI 4:32-37 A dead child is raised (well before the time of Jesus).
MT 9:18-25, JN 11:38-44 Two dead persons are raised (by Jesus himself).
AC 26:23 Jesus was the first to rise from the dead.

2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 There is no injustice or partiality with the Lord.
RO 9:15-18 God has mercy on (and hardens the hearts of) whom he pleases.

JB 2:3-6, 21:7-13, 2TI 3:12 The godly are persecuted and chastised but the wicked grow old, wealthy, and powerful, unchastised by God.
PS 55:23, 92:12-14, PR 10:2-3, 27-31, 12:2, 21 The lives of the wicked are cut short. The righteous flourish and obtain favor from the Lord.

This one's for you, by the way.  If you can explain this one away rationally, without recourse to emotions, then I'll be interested to hear what you have to say on the matter.

PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true.
JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word of God.
JE 20:7, EZ 14:9, 2TH 2:11-12 God himself deceives people.
(Note: Some versions translate deceive as "persuade." The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

Exact translations at the link below.
http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah%208:8
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2014, 10:23:05 am »

 
 
     Moonbeam , this may well go a lot further if you acknowledge the pure vein of hatred and aggression practiced by some Christians as regards those who are non-christian.
 
  And many otherwise good folks who endorse Christianity fall prey to this syndrome to a degree without being self aware of it , as an example and though I know you didn't mean it in the way it came across , though you're discussing this with DF in an equitable manner there has been instances of your coming across as slightly snarky.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:39:20 am by StillaGhost »
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 03:31:04 am »


 
     Moonbeam , this may well go a lot further if you acknowledge the pure vein of hatred and aggression practiced by some Christians as regards those who are non-christian.
 
  And many otherwise good folks who endorse Christianity fall prey to this syndrome to a degree without being self aware of it , as an example and though I know you didn't mean it in the way it came across , though you're discussing this with DF in an equitable manner there has been instances of your coming across as slightly snarky.

The problem with the mods moving this one post from its original thread, destroys some context, where moonbeam came across as hurt / offended and asked me not to attribute things to her  feelings, etc, etc.  Which I had not.  I tend to react badly when people ask me to mind feelings rather than logic.  I have feelings too, and I very often succeed at keeping them out of discussions and arguments.
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 10:33:09 am »


The problem with the mods moving this one post from its original thread, destroys some context, where moonbeam came across as hurt / offended and asked me not to attribute things to her  feelings, etc, etc.  Which I had not.  I tend to react badly when people ask me to mind feelings rather than logic.  I have feelings too, and I very often succeed at keeping them out of discussions and arguments.

 
 
   ( lost the first reply , apologies for that)
 
     Look DF , you've presented many a good point and you've highlighted a good many of the hypocrisies and conflicts within the Bible.
 
   You will note that I stated " slightly snarky" , this was not meant as an indictment of Moonbeam , though she and I have been at odds as regards Christianity and how many Christians conduct themselves , along with the factor of modern Christianity failing utterly to clean up it's own house and take responsibility for the behavior of many of it's figureheads she's a far , far ,FAR!! cry from much of the rabidity commonly encountered within the Fundamentalist Christian community.
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 11:12:03 am »

 
 
   By the way , this particular discussion has the potential to become a good one , and to reach beyond just the basics of religion to societal , tribal and specific other aspects on mankinds development.
 
  That's as long as the hurt feelings , snark and superiority factors can at least remain mostly submerged.
 
  Folks have individual views , ranging from those individuals with the tendency to subscribe to marching with the flock to those of us who tend to march with no flock.
 
    And frankly the social dynamic within the context of this specific forum will always be a bit skewed , after all many of us present here are resident because we won't march with a given political or ideological " flock" and bleat nonsensically. The majority here are "outside the flock" within modern society , many will instinctively shy away from joining even a numerically smaller " flock " such as a specific congregation , this holds true ( while admittedly not across the board) for even many of the devout present here , note Moonbeam's statement that she and hers will attend services but are reticent to " join " the "flock'.......
 
   The basic social concepts espoused within the New Testament hearken back to basic Tribal moral and ethical codes developed to preserve the unity and integrity of the tribal unit , granted this is *my* opinion but research will show quite a bit of validity for that opinion.
 
   As such there is nothing whatsoever negative about those basic concepts , they are a template for civil behavior. As regards the Olde Testament and the Olde Covenant , frequently utilised in argue by ( for lack of better terminology) " Antis" , including myself , though nowadays I usually just use that in response to Fundamentalists that attempt to throw the pentateuch etc. at me ( they usually only jump to Leviticus once with me if they get obstreperous)......if one really cares to look the Olde Testament reads like a history of mankinds inherent aggression and attempted control of others within the Middle Eastern theatre of influence.
 
   The *majority* of religions have historically provided opportunities for the exercise of mankinds aggressive tendencies towards others of the species , this holds no less true for political or ideological systems. They all seek to build a " flock" that will march in lockstep and whose aggressive tendencies can be controlled and used as a weapon.
 
  And these weapons range from Shunning to The Sword.
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 11:41:34 am »

Yep.  There you hit it on the head.  As far as moonbeam, I like the lass.  She's one of the few Christians I know online who isn't a militant type... trying to find every excuse for justifying the faithful aggressing against others.  Since she's not one of the later types, and can be conversed with, I like her.  I still look forward to her addressing my questions (I have a LOT more, been the story of my life.)

Modify to add:  Ironically, I'm pretty sure ALL of the non aggression type Christians I know online are on THIS ONE FORUM!    That's freakin' sad.  Sort of.  :D

Second modify:  I wonder how many others have looked through the bible and noticed that the new testament, despite its flaws and numerous, often provable alterations, describes a completely different god than the old one?  If God is unchanging, then Jesus was a separate God from the OT ones... who were largely different than each other.  One was a creator of useful and great things, and one was a Lord, demanding dominion over others and absolutely unwilling to "save" anyone from this life's mandated outcome (and was apparently powerless to raze bad guys in many instances, including that old iron chariots/weapons bit, where the Lord was with the Hebrews and they STILL got their butts kicked on the battlefield, despite direct claims by The Lord himself prior to the event that those with whom The Lord "was" would be victorious in all battles (it eventually lead to the Hebrews asking for a government, which somehow magically enabled them to forge +1 iron weapons, something they apparently weren't able to do with just The Lord's help.)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 11:55:41 am by Destin Faruda »
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DiabloLoco

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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 06:58:48 pm »

Yep.  There you hit it on the head.  As far as moonbeam, I like the lass.  She's one of the few Christians I know online who isn't a militant type... trying to find every excuse for justifying the faithful aggressing against others.  Since she's not one of the later types, and can be conversed with, I like her.  I still look forward to her addressing my questions (I have a LOT more, been the story of my life.)

Modify to add:  Ironically, I'm pretty sure ALL of the non aggression type Christians I know online are on THIS ONE FORUM!    That's freakin' sad.  Sort of.  :D


+1 on the whole shebang!
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2014, 07:30:07 pm »

Thanks for giving me some breathing room. All three kiddos have been under the weather and are slooooooooooowly on the mend. Little Man has two teeth getting ready to bust loose so between that and the colds there has been loss of sleep... I am hoping to tackle your posts sometime this week! :)
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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2014, 08:25:44 pm »

Thanks for giving me some breathing room. All three kiddos have been under the weather and are slooooooooooowly on the mend. Little Man has two teeth getting ready to bust loose so between that and the colds there has been loss of sleep... I am hoping to tackle your posts sometime this week! :)

 
 
    And then when you have children you end up with the cold after they've recovered. Take extra vitamin C ...........
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DiabloLoco

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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2014, 08:42:13 pm »

Thanks for giving me some breathing room. All three kiddos have been under the weather and are slooooooooooowly on the mend. Little Man has two teeth getting ready to bust loose so between that and the colds there has been loss of sleep... I am hoping to tackle your posts sometime this week! :)

 
 
    And then when you have children you end up with the cold after they've recovered. Take extra vitamin C ...........
Good advice! I take a "super B complex" every morning that has (I think) 500% daily amount of vitamin C. I almost never get sick. "knock on wood!"
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StillaGhost

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Re: Destin's thread(biblical irony)
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 09:08:50 pm »


    And then when you have children you end up with the cold after they've recovered. Take extra vitamin C ...........
Good advice! I take a "super B complex" every morning that has (I think) 500% daily amount of vitamin C. I almost never get sick. "knock on wood!"
[/quote]
 
 
   Vitamin C and the Bs are water soluble , the body excretes them faster so sometimes taking more is a bit better.
 
  Echinacea , grape seed extract myriad other things boost the immune system. I keep things such as Feverfew ( headaches , fevers etc) around , willow bark ( headaches , aches and pains) , a blackberry/mint combo for chest cold , cough relief , sore throat.
 
   Black cohosh is a fairly effective anti-inflammatory and is good for muscle pain , arthritis etc.............the herbal remedies and supplements are something a lot of folks seem to ignore.
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