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[mouse]

I am reading a book at the moment where an assassin has killed two people (politicians) and is now trying to make his way to New Orleans by train, to live in obscurity, thinking "there is plenty of work there after Hurricane Katrina has messed up the place", and the last two books (both American books) had similar scenarios of people being asked "show me some ID" and in one case being shouted at "ID!  Now", completely randomly.  Anyway, in the book I mentioned, the character (hero of the book) has ID demanded from him from the conductor of the train after he is involved in breaking up a fight on the train (he offers to get off the train at the next stop if the conductor will "waive" his "right" to have ID shown).  At the beginning of the book he had ID demanded by the police when he was walking along a country road (he got out of this one by pretending to be mentally retarded and not able to talk).

I know that these books are works of fiction but don't (presumably anyway) have anything in them that would not/could not happen.  This left me wondering if:

1.  It is normal to have ID demanded from anyone at any time in America, by the police or even a train conductor (if so, what would that prove?)

2.  Whether or not Americans are expected to carry some form of ID where ever they go (if this is the case America most certainly has become a police state, more than I thought it was).

Can someone answer this?

[MamaLiberty]

Id from anyone at any time in America, by the police or even a train conductor (if so, what would that prove?)

2.  Whether or not Americans are expected to carry some form of ID where ever they go (if this is the case America most certainly has become a police state, more than I thought it was).

Remember that all the "rules" that used to, or might still apply to government employees... especially cops, have all been thrown out the window for all intents and purposes. So, yes... any state employee or their flunkies - including any sort of transportation employee - may demand "ID" any time they please. It doesn't matter what "reason" they give or what the "rules" may be about it in the end because they can, and probably will call the "cops" if you refuse. Much of this is, of course, tagged with the "terrorism" thing, but that's mostly just an excuse. I don't think many of them even believe they are actually doing anything to protect "the public."

Remember that the goal of every state employee and parasite hanger on is control. the ID thing is just one method used to gain and maintain control over people, their movements and their property.  Anonymity is not to be tolerated.

[Byte Me]

Id from anyone at any time in America, by the police or even a train conductor (if so, what would that prove?)

2.  Whether or not Americans are expected to carry some form of ID where ever they go (if this is the case America most certainly has become a police state, more than I thought it was).

Remember that all the "rules" that used to, or might still apply to government employees... especially cops, have all been thrown out the window for all intents and purposes. So, yes... any state employee or their flunkies - including any sort of transportation employee - may demand "ID" any time they please. It doesn't matter what "reason" they give or what the "rules" may be about it in the end because they can, and probably will call the "cops" if you refuse. Much of this is, of course, tagged with the "terrorism" thing, but that's mostly just an excuse. I don't think many of them even believe they are actually doing anything to protect "the public."

Remember that the goal of every state employee and parasite hanger on is control. the ID thing is just one method used to gain and maintain control over people, their movements and their property.  Anonymity is not to be tolerated.

The only thing I would add is that control isn't the goal for the avg storm troopers and underlings (the sociopaths).  The goal is to get paid and to live comfortably doing as little 'work' as possible; control is the means to that end and so must be their primary focus.  As for those at the top, yes I do believe that control is their primary goal.  They are the psychopaths 'in charge'. 

[heyoka]

IMO, being granted the state authorized opportunity to beat the $#!+ out of somebody, or cap them, now and again is a perk to some.

[MamaLiberty]

The only thing I would add is that control isn't the goal for the avg storm troopers and underlings (the sociopaths).  The goal is to get paid and to live comfortably doing as little 'work' as possible; control is the means to that end and so must be their primary focus.  As for those at the top, yes I do believe that control is their primary goal.  They are the psychopaths 'in charge'.

The lust for control, for ownership of other people, IS the core here. They could make money a lot of different ways. The amount of "work" is irrelevant as well. Criminals of all kinds occasionally work insanely hard, even though they could "live comfortably" otherwise. Power is the most addicting thing in the universe, and these predators at all levels are hooked solid.

And that goes for all of them. There are two kinds of people... those who have a lust for control of others, whether it is psychopathic or a true belief in their own superiority and authority. Everyone else is considered by them to be fair game.

[Rarick]

Id from anyone at any time in America, by the police or even a train conductor (if so, what would that prove?)

2.  Whether or not Americans are expected to carry some form of ID where ever they go (if this is the case America most certainly has become a police state, more than I thought it was).

Remember that all the "rules" that used to, or might still apply to government employees... especially cops, have all been thrown out the window for all intents and purposes. So, yes... any state employee or their flunkies - including any sort of transportation employee - may demand "ID" any time they please. It doesn't matter what "reason" they give or what the "rules" may be about it in the end because they can, and probably will call the "cops" if you refuse. Much of this is, of course, tagged with the "terrorism" thing, but that's mostly just an excuse. I don't think many of them even believe they are actually doing anything to protect "the public."

Remember that the goal of every state employee and parasite hanger on is control. the ID thing is just one method used to gain and maintain control over people, their movements and their property.  Anonymity is not to be tolerated.

There are all sorts of dodges used everywhere for ID'ing people.  The casinos use it as a screening method for "Mutts and KNuckleheads".  It usually goes something like, if you hit a jackpot, you are going to need ID for the IRS forms.  An alternate form would be, you are looking underage, and we ask for ID under 30.   The fact is that if someone looks like they are looking for loose change in the the bins or on the floor, they get asked for ID, and usually refuse to show it.  Since this looks dishonest in all cases it give the casino a reason to invite the uncooperative guest to leave.......

I suspect that this is another litmus test people use to verify some sort of "Honesty with Officials" (Compliance really) if he is going to refuse sharing ID, then it could be an indicator of other uncooperation.........   

The conductor on the train had a legitimate reason for the guy to show ID, since there was going to be a need to ID the good Samaritan if necessary..........  The random asking of ID "Just Cause I Wanna" is frowned upon, and where I was raised was basically a sign the cops were going to do something official rather than just chatting people up.

[jamie]

1.  It is normal to have ID demanded from anyone at any time in America, by the police or even a train conductor (if so, what would that prove?)


No it isn't normal. For a traffic stop and you are the driver sure. Otherwise no.  I can't imagine what business a train conductor would have asking for i.d. Walking down the road, no. You need i.d. to get something notarized, cash a check if they don't know you, those kinds of things. I don't even carry i.d. unless I am driving






2.  Whether or not Americans are expected to carry some form of ID where ever they go (if this is the case America most certainly has become a police state, more than I thought it was).


not to my  knowledge. obviously there are some things you won't be able to do without i.d. but there is no law that says you have to carry i.d. Some of the more totalitarian states may have a law but none that I know of. In any  case america has become a police state

[bennie]

*

[Bill St. Clair]

Back in 2004, the US Supreme Court ruled in the case of Hiibel v Nevada that a citizen could be required to show ID, on demand, if there was a state or local statute to that effect. Some states, e.g. Nevada, DO have such statutes.

See http://papersplease.org/hiibel/ and the whole papersplease.org site.

As far as I know, there is no federal statute requiring ID, except for secret rules about ID at airports, and, increasingly, at train and bus stations. And, of course, to purchase a firearm from a Federal Firearms License holder.

[MamaLiberty]

As far as I know, there is no federal statute requiring ID, except for secret rules about ID at airports, and, increasingly, at train and bus stations. And, of course, to purchase a firearm from a Federal Firearms License holder.

Not sure if it is state or federal, or some "secret" deal, but I don't think you can open a bank account, get utility services, or rent a house/apartment, and probably a lot of other things without showing some form of ID. I think it is even required to rent a movie (set up an account), and who knows how much other stuff in big cities.

Far as I can remember, I had to show my driver's "license" to register my car when I first got here, and before that when I got the Wyoming "license. I probably had to produce it when I closed the deal on the house, but don't remember. I know I had to show the ID when I got a post office box and when I opened a bank account. Have not had the thing out of the wallet since except when it was renewed three years ago.

[jamie]

Back in 2004, the US Supreme Court ruled in the case of Hiibel v Nevada that a citizen could be required to show ID, on demand, if there was a state or local statute to that effect. Some states, e.g. Nevada, DO have such statutes.

See http://papersplease.org/hiibel/ and the whole papersplease.org site.

As far as I know, there is no federal statute requiring ID, except for secret rules about ID at airports, and, increasingly, at train and bus stations. And, of course, to purchase a firearm from a Federal Firearms License holder.

I looked at your link and couldn't determine what the actual decision was.  I thought the nazgul decided that no you don't have to show I.D. but you must give your name.

I guess the question is whether you have i.d. or not, what can the destroyers do if you don't?  I don't carry my i.d. if not driving.

[jamie]

As far as I know, there is no federal statute requiring ID, except for secret rules about ID at airports, and, increasingly, at train and bus stations. And, of course, to purchase a firearm from a Federal Firearms License holder.

Not sure if it is state or federal, or some "secret" deal, but I don't think you can open a bank account, get utility services, or rent a house/apartment, and probably a lot of other things without showing some form of ID. I think it is even required to rent a movie (set up an account), and who knows how much other stuff in big cities.

Far as I can remember, I had to show my driver's "license" to register my car when I first got here, and before that when I got the Wyoming "license. I probably had to produce it when I closed the deal on the house, but don't remember. I know I had to show the ID when I got a post office box and when I opened a bank account. Have not had the thing out of the wallet since except when it was renewed three years ago.

[Bill St. Clair]

I looked at your link and couldn't determine what the actual decision was.  I thought the nazgul decided that no you don't have to show I.D. but you must give your name.

Right you are. I was relying on my memory, which was wrong. If the police have reason to believe you may have committed a crime, they may require you to identify yourself, not by any form of ID, but by telling them your name. There may be wiggle room there if you believe that giving your name will violate your Fifth Amendment right to not incriminate yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada

[mouse]

Mainly I was wondering if it is normal for Americans to carry a form of "ID" document with them everywhere they go.  Like - say - if you walked down to a local shop no more than two miles away or if you went out hunting or walking your dog.  I can see that if you go to "register" your car, or sign the papers when buying a house or something like that you would take the appropriate documents, "ID" might be part of that.

Here I never carry ID (or a driving licence, which we were assured not long ago, would never be demanded as a form of ID) when I am just going to work or shopping either locally or in the town.  According to the "law", you are supposed to have your driving licence with you when you are driving, but I never do and no one has ever asked me for it.  I even got off a "speeding violation" recently because the cop said "I will let it go if you have some form of ID", he accepted my library card as I had nothing else.  I still find that utterly incredible.

I am very glad to find out that Americans haven't got to the "papers please" phase and I hope it never will be that way.

[Bill St. Clair]

I carry my driving license with me all time time, mostly so I don't have to remember anything should I need it. Not having it when stopped for a traffic violation is a big deal in the US. Which is weird, since the cop probably looks at your driving license info, including photo, on his in-car computer screen before coming to your door.

I always have it, but I rarely need it. They wanted to see it, and my credit card, to check in to the hotel I'm staying at. They'll ask for it when cashing a check at the bank, but I usually deposit checks into the ATM, or photograph them with the bank app on my phone.