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Poll

Does the membership of TMM want to turn Elias loose to recruit new members?

Yes! Go for it.
- 24 (75%)
No, leave TMM as it is
- 6 (18.8%)
No. I have a better idea (details below)
- 1 (3.1%)
So THAT's where the old coot went....
- 1 (3.1%)

Total Members Voted: 30

Voting closed: March 05, 2015, 06:56:24 am


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Author Topic: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)  (Read 19824 times)

MamaLiberty

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Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« on: December 05, 2014, 06:56:24 am »

http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=34608.msg429376#msg429376

From Elias:

Quote
I think, in closing, that this place could recognize that it has a mission inherent in its very name, and the country is ready to look more closely into the whole idea of a Constitutional "Militia of the several States" as required in the Constitution; and I also think that we're in a mental war for the hearts and minds of the American people, and there is no better way to approach that war for the hearts and minds than to develop The Mental Militia and run this place like we at Oath Keepers run that place. Gooch is right -- Oath Keepers was born right here. I recall the private message I got from Stewart The Yalie back in 2008, wanting to talk with me about an idea he had. He told me he thought that idea would "grow legs", and it did. He will tell you today that I was the first guy he came to with the idea, and I'm damn proud of that fact. Visionary people are not like most other folks. I don't mind one bit admitting that I'm visionary in ways which I ascribe to my personal spirituality. I am a Voluntaryist, and a philosophical anarchist -- but I'm willing to come off my exalted high horse about my personal views long enough to share the light with those who are searching for some truth with which to answer the threat of the coming martial law. The question is: Is TMM ready and willing to step down off their libertarian purist high horse to become an effective tool for liberty? Or would TMM prefer to go quietly into that good night as people continue to lose interest in "just talking" on forums?
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I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law. I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

Klapton Isgod

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2014, 11:48:07 am »

It would be refreshing to have someone to argue with again.  Muwahahaha.

Be warned...  I won't tiptoe around about the principles of voluntaryism like I do at the OK forums.  And don't expect me to play nice with JBTs who will surely show up and make excuses for the criminality of their fellow professional bullies.

I don't want to lose my happy home here.  I was invited to the Survival Podcast forums and then banned later because I wouldn't kiss the ass of one of their prominent posters who was a cop / blackwater mercenary.  I stopped speaking my mind about legalized thuggery at Oath Keepers forums because Stewart asked me to.

I want assurance that I can continue to speak my mind freely without worrying about scaring someone away or that their wittow feewings might get huwted.

.
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"I got things under control, that's why people call me an extremist.  I'm autonomous.  I understand that I declare my independence every day."  Ted Nugent

"It is the conservative laissez- fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian."  Murray Rothbard

knobster

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2014, 12:29:31 pm »

I want assurance that I can continue to speak my mind freely without worrying about scaring someone away or that their wittow feewings might get huwted.

People come and go all the time from this forum.  If they can't handle the opinionated folks here then they'll leave.  I remember when I was first here and was very much pro-military, pro-cop and got a virtual butt-kicking from many of the fine folks here.  I survived and, looking back, am very appreciative.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2014, 12:36:49 pm »

It would be refreshing to have someone to argue with again.  Muwahahaha.
<snip>
I want assurance that I can continue to speak my mind freely without worrying about scaring someone away or that their wittow feewings might get huwted.

Seems to me that the question is how we argue. This gives a pretty good picture of the possibilities. https://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=34621.msg429387#new

While I'm not at all interested in an argument with a thin skinned statist, and have no intention of compromising that, there does seem to be room for civil discussion of things we don't agree with. Much more of the why, documentation, rational and logical analysis... and no "you're stupid," type remarks - from us anyway.

As for "assurances," I can't issue any guarantee that you won't be challenged unpleasantly, upset and maybe have  your own feelings hurt.  If we invite the politically migrant, homeless, seeking for a better world types - especially from an outfit like Oathkeepers, I suspect it's not going to be an easy read, an automatic "sell," or even a peaceful relationship at all with some of them.

Obviously, if they don't want to discuss things and start to trash the "house" here with personal attacks, we simply toss them out. Don't see a problem with that either. But that's what we're asking. Is this what we want to do? Is there something else we could do instead? Let's start out with an open mind anyway. :)
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I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law. I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

Who...me?

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2014, 01:10:20 pm »

As ML points out, the trick is not to lose your cool when someone calls you something you don't like.  If someone finds out you have a weakness for a certain word or train of thought they will brandish that weapon every time you disagree with them.  And if a new bunch rolls in, especially from OK, there WILL be disagreements.   The key is not to instantly respond if you are insulted, or better yet DO NOT be insulted in the first place.  Take a moment and cool off a bit the come back with a reasoned response that does not fall prey to name calling.   Point out that you are just having a conversation that includes differing opinions.  Remember that you will never sway someone to your side by calling them names.

And above all remember that there are many ways to say the same thing. Be nice, be civil, be smarter than they are.  You may just win someone to your point of view.
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Silver

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2014, 01:52:34 pm »

I have a different vision for this place.  It isn't mine; I am a guest here and happy to be one.  This is nothing more than my opinion.

Let me start by quoting the first few paragraphs from Elias's Mission Statement  My selections are made for emphasis and not to disparage anything I have omitted.

Quote

The Mental Militia is not a formal organization, it is an association of conscientious people who value freedom and liberty in the widest context. We like that brand of Liberty which was originally expounded by the authors of the United States Declaration of Independence.

Mentalitians are people who believe that "consciousness works!", and who prefer the art of reason over violence as a solution to international, national, societal, and cultural problems. We see an apparent and lucid truth in the wisdom of dispelling illusions of mass-mentality by first coming to know and to understand the content of one's mind. We feel that a healthy, integrated, well-oriented mind produces a physical rendering in actions and deeds within society and culture which reflect the unity and cohesiveness of peace, love, and happiness.

The Mental Militia presupposes that to achieve a healthy mind in today's "civilized" world, anyone might begin by accumulating a wide and diversified field of truthful knowledge. Therefore, The Mental Militia seeks the gathering of diverse thought, historic fact, philosophical view, intuitive and creative thinking, emotional input, and analysis of public events involving spirituality, psychology, economics, cultural mores, governance, and politics.

There is really nothing to join with TMM except the exploration of ideas and how they effect your inner-most self. We are simply a growing number of people who confer in cyberspace and stimulate intellectual/psychological growth between ourselves as we discuss, argue, debate, and celebrate the spectrum of Liberty-related premises and theories.

In summary:

  • value freedom and liberty
  • reason over violence
  • accumulating a wide and diversified field of truthful knowledge
  • celebrate the spectrum of Liberty-related premises and theories

That is why I am here.  I come to learn.  I share what I know.  I've made hard money and economics my specialty, places where I'm more likely to start a discussion or respond than elsewhere, where I regularly update long-running threads. I find that trying to teach about a subject is a great way to find the limits to my own knowledge.

I participate whenever and wherever I have something  to add that I think might be valuable.  For every post that I make, I read 20 or more; because I come here to learn.

The bullet points above are important to me.  I want to associate with others who value freedom, who eschew violence, seek truth, and know the spectrum of liberty-related theories.

That's not to say that I want everyone to agree with me.  That would be boring and pointless. 

If Elias directs the Oath Keepers here, how many will join?  Paretto's rule suggests that if Elias sends the message, or creates the link, whatever, 20% of the membership may notice.  Of that 20%, 20% might follow the link.  Of that, 20% may explore of the forum.  Of that, 20% might join and participate.  In the end, I would expect 0.16% of the membership to show up, give or take.  If there are 55,000 members, I'm estimating 88 new members.

If I'm right, this won't do so much to help Elias sell tee shirts or coffee mugs, or otherwise get financial rewards.  But 88 new members would certainly change the complexion of this place.

Let's say I'm wrong, it happens often enough.  Lets say instead of 88 new members we get 5 times that number, 440 new members.  Elias might get what he seeks.

But I will leave.  I've made my opinion of Oath Keeper's known here.  Use the search function if you are interested.  My summary: I don't associate with thugs and criminals, with people who use violence to get their way.  See those bullet points again.  I don't care what costumes they wear or what bangles they've been issued. The name on their paycheck does not alter the morality of their actions.  I want nothing to do with them.  When accosted in the street by a costumed thug, I will always attempt to walk away.  The same applies here.

There are some here who used to be in that class, saw the light, and renounced their evil ways.  Elias is one.  Gooch is another.  I count these men as friends, and I admire them. I admire anyone who walks the path of liberty, even if they came here from a path I abhor.

If this place is overrun with jackboots, cops, thugs, soldiers, people whose job is being paid with stolen money to beat, cage, torture, rob, and kill others, I will leave.

This is not a threat.  I am not angry as I write.  I'm trying to express what I find valuable about TMM, why I've poured so many hours into pounding a keyboard and reading others thoughts posted here. 

I suggest that there is a place for a Mental Militia that follows Elias vision as written, and a place for trying to teach active-duty cops, soldiers, inspectors, bureaucrats, and politicians about liberty.  I think those are two different places.

Peace,

Silver



« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 02:35:32 pm by Silver »
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Klapton Isgod

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2014, 01:57:29 pm »

I don't need coaching on how to argue on the internet.  I just don't want the rest of us to have to tip toe because someone decided that it was important to get new people to come here.  Specifically, I want to know that "cop bashing," something that is prohibited on other sites I frequent, will not be some new sin that is suddenly disallowed here.

If tax-eating parasites who make their living by using their legal privileges to coerce and intimidate others start coming here, I will not hesitate to point out exactly what they are.

.
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"I got things under control, that's why people call me an extremist.  I'm autonomous.  I understand that I declare my independence every day."  Ted Nugent

"It is the conservative laissez- fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian."  Murray Rothbard

Silver

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2014, 02:10:06 pm »

My "better idea" for TMM may not be better at all.  I suggest it as more of an experiment.

If we want to change this place, we must change how we conduct ourselves.  If we want to hold true to those bullet points from the Mission Statement, we should take actions that provide evidence of that support.

To be specific:

I don't read the endless series of dreadful stories posted mostly by one individual.  I've put them on "Ignore."  We all know we're in a tight spot, that things are bad and getting worse.  Pouring gasoline on a fire of negativity doesn't advance the reasons for TMM's existence.  It doesn't promote knowledge, or liberty, or theories of freedom.

I'm not saying don't mention the latest street execution, or spying outrage, or tax mulcting.  I'm saying that just posting a link adds no value and is not welcome.  If you have something to add, something insightful, some way to connect it to the themes that occur here over and over, go right ahead and post.  I might read those.  But an endless stream of bad news without thoughtful commentary is not helpful and doesn't belong here.  I can go to Drudge, Google News, FOX, or a million other websites and forums anytime I want a steaming serving of that crap.

If someone takes the time to write something, and you find it interesting, or useful, or thought-provoking, acknowledge them.  Let others know that you found that valuable.  If you can add a bit of new perspective or additional knowledge, by all means do so.  Providing positive feedback to good posts will beget more good posts.

When someone is being a jerk, shun them.  Don't respond.  Don't take the bait. 

The difference in response to thoughtful, informative posts and spittle-spewing rage by a juiced-up jackboot should be obvious to all.  If you don't respond to the jackboot, they will eventually go away.  If you ignore their posts in an otherwise civilized thread, the message will be sent.

But if you also ignore the work of those who make good posts, if you treat them no differently than you treat a troll, then you should expect them to get the same message.

I'm as guilty as anyone for not being free enough with praise.  I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.*

It doesn't always have to be praise, but a little goes a long way.  A thoughtful comment in response to post is even better than a pure attaboy.  Keystrokes are cheap, thought and time to think is valuable. 

Those are my suggestions, my "other ideas."

Peace,

Silver

*extra points to those who know where I plagiarized that.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 07:36:01 am by Silver »
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Silver

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2014, 02:12:57 pm »

I don't need coaching on how to argue on the internet.  I just don't want the rest of us to have to tip toe because someone decided that it was important to get new people to come here.  Specifically, I want to know that "cop bashing," something that is prohibited on other sites I frequent, will not be some new sin that is suddenly disallowed here.

If tax-eating parasites who make their living by using their legal privileges to coerce and intimidate others start coming here, I will not hesitate to point out exactly what they are.

I hope that you didn't take my post as suggesting you needed coaching.  Most of us are grown-ups here, certainly you.

Nor do I worry about your ability to speak truth to power.

It's just not a job I want.  Those are not the people I seek.  They have nothing to offer that I value.  That's why I would leave.

Peace,

Silver
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Silver

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2014, 02:27:10 pm »

ML speaks eloquently about how we can and should conduct ourselves:

Quote
Seems to me that the question is how we argue. This gives a pretty good picture of the possibilities. https://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=34621.msg429387#new

While I'm not at all interested in an argument with a thin skinned statist, and have no intention of compromising that, there does seem to be room for civil discussion of things we don't agree with. Much more of the why, documentation, rational and logical analysis... and no "you're stupid," type remarks - from us anyway.

I agree with every word.  I've already tried to explain my concerns.  I'm really not terribly worried about this issue: if it goes as bad as I fear it might, I will simply leave.

But there are people here I care about, even if I don't always agree with them.  For those, let me offer this thought and warning.

If you alert tens of thousands of active-duty thugs, cops, soldiers, narcs, anti-terrorism agents, building code enforcers, policy wonks, reservists, all of whom count themselves active duty and military, law enforcement, and firefighters, some will notice this place. 

They won't like what they find here.  This is not a friendly place for their kind.

But unlike us, people who stomp faces for a paycheck don't place a lot of value on rational discussion.  They don't practice those arts. 

They do know how to make trouble for uppity peons.  We know that they can break our pathetic encryption, track our internet use, get access to our emails, letters, bank accounts, and damn near any other personal information they please.   We know that every one us commits three felonies a day, usually before breakfast.  We know countless stories of people who have harmed no one, and never offered the slightest bit of evidence that they wanted to harm anyone, who were jailed, robbed, and murdered.  By people who are the prime audience for Oath Keepers.

All without a warrant or any articulated theory for reasonable cause.  We also know they will lie, under oath, in court, about how and why they discovered whatever damning information they use to hang you.  Whether the lie is to justify your killing after the fact, or to convince a jury to put you in a cage for life plus cancer, they will lie.  They are trained professionals, testiliars, and they are very, very good at their jobs.

Those are the people that could flood this place.  It takes just one to burn this place down, and take a lot of good people with it.  They will do it.  It is what they are, what they do.  It is all that they know how to do.  And they will probably get paid extra for doing it.

Elias is very brave to associate with these folks.  I don't care to, and I worry about the risks to those who have posted their frank thoughts in this space.

Peace,

Silver
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2014, 02:32:37 pm »

Elias is very brave to associate with these folks.  I don't care to, and I worry about the risks to those who have posted their frank thoughts in this space.

All valid concerns.  I do happen to think that anyone who wants to harm us is already aware of the things we have posted here, however. I'm under no illusion that anything I've written in the past 50 years is not known to my enemy...
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I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law. I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2014, 02:38:06 pm »

Agreed.  I'm not sure that means that alerting 50,000 new ones is a great idea.  Especially if they are likely to come here and get a reception they find unpleasant.
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Klapton Isgod

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2014, 02:38:29 pm »

It is worth noting that anyone coming here from Oath Keepers (with the exception of possible spies and moles) is already on Fedzilla's "lists" for daring to question the authoritahs and daring to declare their intent to disobey.

.
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"I got things under control, that's why people call me an extremist.  I'm autonomous.  I understand that I declare my independence every day."  Ted Nugent

"It is the conservative laissez- fairist, the man who puts all the guns and all the decision-making power into the hands of the central government and then says, 'Limit yourself'; it is he who is truly the impractical utopian."  Murray Rothbard

Silver

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2014, 03:35:24 pm »

There's no doubt that many of the Oath Keepers are or will be under suspicion.  That's the trouble with the Panopticon; it is indiscriminate by design.

It's likely that OK's will be seeking friends and allies.

I don't associate with member of the political class.  Period.  Full Stop as they say in England.

If your pay comes from tax loot, I have nothing to say to you.  I will walk away.  I don't trust you.  I'm not interested in what you have to say.

I'll grant the possibility that a tax parasite might have an honest man inside trying to get out.  Once they've won that internal, personal battle, and provided evidence of that victory by renouncing their evil ways and quitting their stolen-loot paycheck, I'll gladly consider their company.  Not before.

Peace,

Silver
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MamaLiberty

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Re: Revitalizing TMM (Poll)
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2014, 03:47:39 pm »

Agreed.  I'm not sure that means that alerting 50,000 new ones is a great idea.  Especially if they are likely to come here and get a reception they find unpleasant.

How many people from Oathkeeprs visit TMM and post in the area already set out for them? They've already been invited, actually, and darn few have bothered. I really don't look for more than a dozen or so new folks to come visit us, no matter what Elias says or does. But we obviously don't have any guarantees... But it could be a very good thing for us, even if it doesn't work out as Elias hopes. 
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I will not knowingly initiate force. I am a self owner.

Let the record show that I did not consent to be governed. I did not consent to any constitution. I did not consent to any president. I did not consent to any law. I did not consent to the police. Nor any tax. Nor any prohibition of anything. Nor any regulation or licensing of any kind.
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