The Mental Militia Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Down

Author Topic: Gulching - A Dissenting View  (Read 11235 times)

ZooT_aLLures

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7956
    • http://www.thepriceofliberty.org
Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2005, 02:39:39 pm »

Yeah, but if Zoot wants others to treat him as he wishes to be treated he'd think about whether his neighbor would rather sleep "before" turning his music up to concert level in the middle of the night.....

The fact is if Zoot wants to have a good neighbor, he must also be a good neighbor.

I can only wonder how many "wars" have been started over such trivial nonsense and the decided inability or refusal to even bother to consider that you even have a neighbor much less consider he also has a life to lead and crap that's got to get done.
Indeed if we ever truely want to replace government with anything or even nothing we must prove to ourselves first that we are capable of governing ourselves in such a manner to retain or create at least a crumb of harmony with our neighbors regardless of what they believe if indeed we wish to teach them that there are folks that don't need government.....
As we certainly don't need or want people to start or continue to believe that they "need" government to protect them from "us".....

A long time ago we had a conversation here about property rights(which I do agree with), with people saying that if they catch people hunting on their land they'll take their guns and kick them off.
Now yes this is "their right" but wouldn't a more proper solution be to instead befriend them, open lines of honest communication, and teach them via example to respect both you and your rights via this friendship rather than starting a "war"?
I know this is going to sound redundant and probably real stupid, but I feel that we should attempt to do this by being statesmen diplomats and more importantly "benefactors" until we can no longer do this, at which point we'll have no choice but to become soldiers.

Those who make nonviolent revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable --JFK

Somehow I feel most of us have more than enough to deal with regarding the state to also be creating conflicts with neighbors, particularly over some pissing contest.....

If indeed your neighbors grass is "too fucking long" you can either call the cops, you can offer to mow it for him(either for money, or even better because it "creates" harmony(and unmentioned debt), free of charge), or you can try to ignore it, and what you decide to do ultimately reflects upon and steers any future course of action.

An open hand is in many cases far more powerful than a fist......

We've only got so many years that we spend in this world, and it's our choice as to whether we wish to spend them trying to tell people what to do or not to do, or instead not telling people what to do or not to do, but by example showing them what to think.....the end result is the same, things get done, but the first only gets them done begrudgingly and with much conflict, while the second gets things done via harmony........after all if you can show them what to think they'll do what needs to be done.....but it'll be their choice and their will that directs their actions..

And MY idea is always the best idea "to me"......   :D

Given this the real question in this entire forum shouldn't be "what are you doing for or to obtain freedom?" but instead "what are you doing so other people don't fear, and want freedom?"........do your personal actions lend or deny credability to the justification for the existance of state?

 
Logged
Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Roy J. Tellason

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5996
  • Techy Kinda Guy and Serious Bookaholic
    • Roy J. Tellason's Home Page
Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2005, 06:13:38 pm »

Quote
 
Quote
The above is why I have great reservations about gulching and seek a very thorough understanding of it's basic idea. The appeal is great but,...people, being people, cannot and will not always exercise reson, thought, logic or consideration. Many people are in fact intolerant of certain behaviours in others. You can do anything you want just don't do it around me. This makes any kind of a general society a difficult propositon. It also opens the doors for governments, laws, regulations policing and all the BS we endure now.

Yeah.  One of the things I enjoy about reading SF is the alternative social arrangements that seem to pop up with regularity.  And of course the biggest question is "how did it get there from here?" and that's the one that most of the authors seem to have the most trouble with,  or do a bit of hand-waving to get past.  For example take James P. Hogan's "Voyage From Yesteryear",  where the colony ship was run by computers and robots,  and it was robots that set up the initial colony,  only gradually yielding to the people as they matured.  I *really* have a lot of trouble buying that,  but in spite of that the book remains one of my favorites by him.

Quote
Another consideration of the social nature of humans indicates that hierarchies will develop. Whether these are real as in "Zoot is now Supreme Dictator Deluxe!" or perceived as in "Claire is now the Alpha Maddog...we'll follow her.", the problem is that it makes for hierachies which become the basis of socio-political thinking and action.

I wonder about that.

Quote
Spontaneous order will happen despite the best of intentions and from there it will devolve into political organization. Is this a bad thing? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Spontaneous organization is not a bad thing,  but political organization?  That's another issue entirely.

Quote
That fine line that demarcates the boundary between good and bad is imposition. Imposing that order or organization on others who do not accept such. It is an extension of the NAP/ZAP.

Yep!  One of the better things about the book I mention above is that folks get listened to if they know what the hell they're talking about.  There was some other book I read,  and I can't remember what it was now (I'll find it sooner or later!),  but the way that particular society worked was extremely non-coercive,  and that you got a job by being particularly good at it,  or at least having an aptitude for it.  No force,  no persuasion,  none of that silly stuff.

In any case,  I'm not so sure that hierarchies are inevitable,  or even necessary for the most part,  only that they sure do seem to have been the common case more often than not.  Can this change?  I sure as hell hope so!

Quote
I don't want to resort to law. I simply want to get my sleep NOW.

Seems to me like noise of that level would constitute an initiation of force,  no?

Quote
Did you see how "...shoot Zoot." rhymed?

Yes.  :-)

Quote
Despite the sticky questions above, I have no doubt that a gulching situation could be a workable solution for some, definitely a good temporary solution (6 months max) but I remain skeptical of it being a long term solution (beyond 6 months). In other words I don't think a gulch will be an "anarchic haven".

I think that in large part this depends on how capable the people living there are at adjusting themselves to a different sort of a social order than what they're used to.

Quote
More space is needed. Something like a widespread conglomeration of homesteaders that have a common meeting place, a downtown area or business. Sort of like Claire's fictive Hardyville. This could be a workable long term solution. Even then there would be limits as to any freewill organization.

More space is good.  :-)

Quote
Of course, there are those who could live in a more compacted manner. There are those who would seek to organize and centralize in a manner they thought workable. That is not a situation for me.

Me either,  it makes it too hard to deal with my junk,  and to collect more.  :-)

Quote
I do not desire the weight of any single or multiple jurisdictions.

Yeah.

Quote
I was beginning to admire the Montana government until they went and banned smoking in public places.  Yet more proof that you can depend on any form of government to be one thing...government.

Yeah,  that sucks.  But then,  they're not all that far away from the social and governmental structures that the rest of the country is under,  not by a long shot.  I'm thinking *completely* radical,  compared to what most people are used to.  And getting there should be an interesting trip.  Do you think that if a bunch of folks all got together and pooled their resource to buy land that they could manage a small version of the North American Confedaracy?  Wouldn't happen,  it's  just too radical,  and too much of a threat to what's already there now.  And most people wouldn't understand it or the philosophy behind it and wouldn't support the idea,  anyway.

Quote
I prefer a cooler, drier clime as opposed to warm and humid.

I used to think so too,  but I like trees.  And if the climate is that try,  then you run the risk of fire,  which happens in those drier portions of the country...

Quote
This rules out a lot of the country. I also don't like collective actions toward government so this rules out New Hampshire. I simply wish to be left alone to live my life as I will.

The only collective action toward government that's ever going to get anywhere is when enough people ignore them.

Quote
I am an adult now. (Mrs. Speers don't always agree with that assessment but, that's another matter).

You too,  eh?  :-)
Logged
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
--
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

linuxfan

  • Guest
Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2005, 03:00:52 pm »

time for another cliche, i reckon, so here it is: "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." i ain't gonna waste my time, energy, passion, and everything else in a fight no one cares about. i'm just gonna do my own thing, and to hell with the rest of the world.
Logged

linuxfan

  • Guest
Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2005, 03:07:15 pm »

time for another cliche, i reckon, so here it is: "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." i ain't gonna waste my time, energy, passion, and everything else in a fight no one cares about. i'm just gonna do my own thing, and to hell with the rest of the world. as far as abandoning the real world to the barbarians, if that's what the rest of society wants, let them have it, and when that society implodes due to corruption, or from being to draconian, we'll be there to pick up the pieces. I don't like 99% of the "good things" in society, so i don't want it. As far as i'm concerned, i'd be happier'n a pig in shit if i could just go off and do my own thing, and tell the rest of the world to go away. but that's just me, and i'm a contrary bastard.
Logged

dogsledder54

  • Guest
Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2005, 07:59:48 pm »

Quote
Consider the cockroach, it lives in your house without being seen, eats, sleeps, and reproduces as it wishes. when you spray for them, they just go over to your neighbors until the fumes clear. You may get a few, but never will the cockroach go extinct.

The humans will kill themselves eventually and all that will remain is some pretty tough cockroachs.

apply the above as my freedom philosophy. :P
Great observation.  ;)  
Logged

FDD

  • Big Dog
  • Moderator Group
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2330
  • Welcome to Wyoming, Conceder everyone armed
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2018, 09:29:23 am »

oldie but a goodie
Logged
Nobody needs an AR-15
Nobody needs a whiny little bitch ether, yet here you are

If we want our grandchildren to be able to give thanks for being Americans, we'll need to.....start steering a course away from government control of our lives-and start moving back toward greater personal responsibility.   Ed Feulner

I think, therefore I am not a progressive liberal socialist marxist democrat

That's WY

knobster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4046
  • Come and take!
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2018, 08:27:44 am »

oldie but a goodie

Yes, yes it is.
Logged
You will not rise to the occasion; you will default to your level of training.
In God we trust, everyone else bring data.

jamie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1848
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2018, 06:11:58 pm »

Back when there used to be real discussions.
Logged

knobster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4046
  • Come and take!
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2018, 07:24:02 am »

Back when there used to be real discussions.

Agree.  Reading the words from those liberty-minded dynamos is amazing.  My talents lie elsewhere.  Like raising chickens and growing veggies.  I guess my actions speak louder than my pitiful grasp of the English language.
Logged
You will not rise to the occasion; you will default to your level of training.
In God we trust, everyone else bring data.

Elias Alias

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4771
  • TMM
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2018, 08:06:37 am »

Back when there used to be real discussions.

You never know, jamie -- there may be real discussions in these old boards once again. Who knows?  Anything is possible. As an example, our dear Friend Sunni-Snake is back after a lengthy absence. She was right in the middle of things when we created this place. It's very pleasing to see her here again.

But jamie,  I've only read over this one page of this thread. I did see on this page some good "discussion", and I recall those days when this place was hopping. What is missing is Claire Wolfe, the original Freedom Outlaw. She draws a good crowd, and her crowd is usually quite awakened, well-informed, and zestfully playfully smartly engaging in the fine art of communicating. You'll recall that when we built this forum way back in 2003 we did it for Claire Wolfe. Her running buddy back then was Debra Ricketts. They loved this place until, about four years into its existence, it got over-run with craziness and there was a large "Flounce-Off".  I wonder if there are any others still here who can recall those days... I know Bill St Clair will remember.
 
It was after that Flounce-Off that Claire wanted out of here. The Flounce-Off was headed up by a very busy "conversationalist" who enjoyed running her mouth and disputing anything Claire or Debra had to say, and who made a big stink about everything. That girl was very selfish, very stupid, totally insensitive like a spoiled teenage brat, and very much convinced that she knew more about life than Claire Wolfe. Because of her, many hundreds or readers and members here simply left, and soon enough she left too, and started her own forum, which is where she started to finally wake up a bit. After many years, I ran into that girl at a libertarian event this past winter. She does not know how to stand in my presence, knowing that I know how utterly destructive she was to the liberty movement. I did say hello to her, but she was too uncomfortable to even hear what I was saying, so I pulled away quickly and quietly.  But I digress.

You are right -- there used to be some great conversations here, and I'm glad that all of them are preserved in our archives. There are many hundreds of thousands of posts on these old boards, so we'll do all we can to keep them open for the occasional newbie who comes across this place.

Salute!
Elias Alias

Logged
"Heirs to self-knowledge shed gently their fears..."

FDD

  • Big Dog
  • Moderator Group
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2330
  • Welcome to Wyoming, Conceder everyone armed
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2018, 09:17:13 am »

Oh I remember those days, and yes it got lively at times.

but I stayed, and feel this forum still has a lot to give to any one that just takes the time to look and learn from the past.

Dawg
Logged
Nobody needs an AR-15
Nobody needs a whiny little bitch ether, yet here you are

If we want our grandchildren to be able to give thanks for being Americans, we'll need to.....start steering a course away from government control of our lives-and start moving back toward greater personal responsibility.   Ed Feulner

I think, therefore I am not a progressive liberal socialist marxist democrat

That's WY

Sunni-Snake

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2018, 07:22:29 pm »

I remember those days very well, too. Not always happily or proudly, but I remember them. Your tale of meeting that person is interesting, Elias.

There are ... issues with building a movement, or even a subpart of a movement, around one or two personalities.
Logged

EwB

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 411
  • resident of chaos manor
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2018, 12:43:03 pm »

I drop in, look around, sometimes post, and sadly mourn those who pass on. 

The forum, like a meadow,  is fairly quiet but still full of life.  I think we all have been more contemplative of late. Perhaps more so than ever. 

as always

EwB
Logged

slidemansailor

  • Moderator Group
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4125
  • A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves
    • The Bitterroot Bugle
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2018, 11:13:13 pm »

!WOW!

I went to the first page and read post-by-post through the first two pages. It was an intelligent discussion among passionate, erudite conversation.

Thank you, FDD for awakening this sleeping giant.

I may well have to go through all of those pages from a dozen years ago.
Logged
If you don't work for liberty,  you don't get it.

http://BitterrootBugle.com/

jamie

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1848
Re: Gulching - A Dissenting View
« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2018, 02:14:44 pm »

Back when there used to be real discussions.

You never know, jamie -- there may be real discussions in these old boards once again. Who knows?  Anything is possible. As an example, our dear Friend Sunni-Snake is back after a lengthy absence. She was right in the middle of things when we created this place. It's very pleasing to see her here again.

But jamie,  I've only read over this one page of this thread. I did see on this page some good "discussion", and I recall those days when this place was hopping. What is missing is Claire Wolfe, the original Freedom Outlaw. She draws a good crowd, and her crowd is usually quite awakened, well-informed, and zestfully playfully smartly engaging in the fine art of communicating. You'll recall that when we built this forum way back in 2003 we did it for Claire Wolfe. Her running buddy back then was Debra Ricketts. They loved this place until, about four years into its existence, it got over-run with craziness and there was a large "Flounce-Off".  I wonder if there are any others still here who can recall those days... I know Bill St Clair will remember.
 
It was after that Flounce-Off that Claire wanted out of here. The Flounce-Off was headed up by a very busy "conversationalist" who enjoyed running her mouth and disputing anything Claire or Debra had to say, and who made a big stink about everything. That girl was very selfish, very stupid, totally insensitive like a spoiled teenage brat, and very much convinced that she knew more about life than Claire Wolfe. Because of her, many hundreds or readers and members here simply left, and soon enough she left too, and started her own forum, which is where she started to finally wake up a bit. After many years, I ran into that girl at a libertarian event this past winter. She does not know how to stand in my presence, knowing that I know how utterly destructive she was to the liberty movement. I did say hello to her, but she was too uncomfortable to even hear what I was saying, so I pulled away quickly and quietly.  But I digress.

You are right -- there used to be some great conversations here, and I'm glad that all of them are preserved in our archives. There are many hundreds of thousands of posts on these old boards, so we'll do all we can to keep them open for the occasional newbie who comes across this place.

Salute!
Elias Alias

I am just glad that the flounce off included the guy who never made it out of boot camp  and bragged about being  a Marine.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 02:26:18 pm by jamie »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7   Go Up