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[FDD]

everyone can learn something from someone, if they are open to learn.

no one knows everything about everything

[MamaLiberty]

everyone can learn something from someone, if they are open to learn.

no one knows everything about everything

You bet! But I'm always amazed at the people who think they have nothing to learn.

Had a 77 year old man in a class one time, wanting a CC "permit." He muzzled everyone constantly, would not take his finger off the trigger for more than a few minutes, and resented being told about it. Thank goodness I start with simulated guns. He insisted that, since the guns were fake, that there was no problem at all. I have no doubt, however, that he treated real guns the same. He'd been "shooting all his life," and saw no reason to change anything. He was the only person in ten years that I asked to leave the class. I'm hoping there are not too many like that around. My only consolation was that he'd not managed to kill anyone or himself in 77 years, and had to leave it at that.

[Tahn L.]

Going off grid is a goal.  A large propane tank to heat water and run refrigeration items.  A/C in the summer is important in Iowa during the humid days but I hear Wyoming doesn't suffer as much of that.  Dare to dream...

knobster,

 I certainly support anyone and everyone, going "off grid". I have been attempting to do so for forty some years. One thing I realized and wish to pass on to you and everyone is that being "off the electric grid" is one thing, which I enjoy but even though I have solar panels and not connected to any power company, I am still on a grid. The electrical components to my system (charge controller and inverter)  have failed twice now and the batteries are wearing out so I am still "on a grid" of sorts, mostly the UPS or Fedex grid for parts and supplies. I still cook in the summer on a propane stove, so I am still on the propane grid. Even when I use a chain saw, I am on the chain,  gas and oil "grid".

I firmly believe in learning to live in a primitive, 1920's lifestyle, AS A BASIC, and then moving up the scale when possible is important. If everything fails and it could, reverting to a crosscut saw and not relying on those items which are dependent upon "delivered" systems, could be the only thing which allows a family to survive. Modern conveniences are wonderful, when they work, but a working system not dependent upon outside delivery is the only long term method of continued survival I can envision.

Many families were happy and comfortable prior to the "delivered systems" and true happiness is not dependent upon them. A comfortable home, a secure water source that is available regardless of modern technology, growing and storing your own food is what makes life comfortable and worth living.

Having propane and solar electricity is wonderful, along with the other modern contrivances but not necessary to survival, comfort or happiness. They will certainly extend your ability to living a modern lifestyle in the short run if other things fail but not in a long period of distress. When you put in a well, make sure you can still access the water by hand. Use a chainsaw (I do) but have a good crosscut and accessories as a backup. Even better, teach your children how to survive and prosper, the "old fashioned way". Everything is like having a propane lighter, then matches but also know how to use a flint and steel. Same with every aspect of life.

You and your family are a wonderful example of self sufficiency and I have followed your adventures with great interest and pleasure. Just don't forget the "basics" which have worked since forever and don't assume that necessary "stuff" will always be available, through some delivery grid. Have a back up that works regardless.

May God continue to bless you all.

[MamaLiberty]

Living "off the grid" is really possible for only a few people, Tahn.  The young, as long as they have plenty of help have the best opportunity, if that's what they want. I am old, alone and disabled. I can't do any of those things myself, and there is nobody here to do them for me.

But I would not want to live that way. I see no reason to retreat to 18th century methods, except for a temporary emergency perhaps. I look to the future, and many MORE "modern conveniences" myself. I love running water and lights at the touch of a switch; my little car to take me to the grocery store, my computer to keep me in touch with friends and family.... I love my wood stove, but I am not always well enough to haul in the firewood and rely on the electric heat. I don't see that as a failure of any kind, just the way it is.

Our modern conveniences are not the problem. Even the "grid" wouldn't be a real problem. The problem is the controllers, the vampires who suck out the blood of us all. Let's get rid of the vampires, goons and controllers, not the progress humans have made. Each to his/her own, of course. As for me, I want to reach the stars. I want to have (real) science find a cure for cancer, and all of the other things that make life shorter and more miserable than it needs to be.

Let's not just curse the dark. Let's light a bonfire of individual liberty and justice.

[FDD]

Hey Than

being "off" the grid is more than that.
even back in the late 1800's, people would still go to town for things and food.

I see being off the grid as not being dependent on someone else for my living.

some people can not live like that, but that is ok.
How I want to live is up to me, and no one else.
So I will have my own well, have my own septic field.
have my own power source, but there will always be things I will need that I will have to go to town for.

remember, two is one, and one is none

[knobster]

Appreciate your kind words Tahn!

Yes, my family and I will never be completely off grid.  With two family members dependent on insulin to make it through their daily lives, we very much need modern technology! 

I guess I should have stated that reducing my dependence on the 'system' is a goal.  Striving to 'shrug' more and more with each passing year.  You bring up good points though.  I have my Stihl chainsaw but I don't have a hefty crosscut saw.  If gas/oil runs out I'm stuck with my little 18" bow saw and an axe. 

[Tahn L.]

I have my Stihl chainsaw but I don't have a hefty crosscut saw.  If gas/oil runs out I'm stuck with my little 18" bow saw and an axe. 

knobster, An axe and a small bow saw are better that what the majority of people have. A good one or two man cross cut saw is a real marvel of technology and IMHO, a necessary requirement if you heat with wood. Don't forget a proper file and a saw set.

I lived in a tipi up in the Colorados for a year, with only an axe but that worked because I was not cutting wood to a short length to fit into a stove. I could use "almost" any length of wood by just dragging it inside to the firepit and keep inching it forward as it burned. Worked.

[Tahn L.]

Hey Than

being "off" the grid is more than that.
even back in the late 1800's, people would still go to town for things and food.

Oh I agree FDD. Ever since the industrial revolution, people have traded for manufactured items they could not make. Even before that, people traded for food they could not grow themselves or useful crafts that others could make better or with less energy.

I see being off the grid as not being dependent on someone else for my living.

Good definition.

So I will have my own well, have my own septic field.
have my own power source, but there will always be things I will need that I will have to go to town for.

Just try and have access to your well water when/if your "power source" fails.

remember, two is one, and one is none

Yep, I "had" two charge controllers and inverters and it went quickly to none, after a lightening strike.

[Tahn L.]

Living "off the grid" is really possible for only a few people, Tahn.  The young, as long as they have plenty of help have the best opportunity, if that's what they want. I am old, alone and disabled. I can't do any of those things myself, and there is nobody here to do them for me.

I agree ML, not everyone can live that way and I am approaching the age where it will be more difficult, not that I am even close to being self sufficient. I do wish my family lived closer.

But I would not want to live that way. I see no reason to retreat to 18th century methods, except for a temporary emergency perhaps. I look to the future, and many MORE "modern conveniences" myself. I love running water and lights at the touch of a switch; my little car to take me to the grocery store, my computer to keep me in touch with friends and family.... I love my wood stove, but I am not always well enough to haul in the firewood and rely on the electric heat. I don't see that as a failure of any kind, just the way it is.

It's not a bad way to live ML, as long as you have food, shelter, water. I too, love my high tech stuff, especially the landline and internet. I also have running water, as long as I run to the well and hand pump it out    but I also have a bucket and rope if the hand pump fails. I know several people who actually prefer to live a simple 18th century lifestyle and enjoy it. Several Amish families around here also give it a valiant effort.

Our modern conveniences are not the problem. Even the "grid" wouldn't be a real problem. The problem is the controllers, the vampires who suck out the blood of us all. Let's get rid of the vampires, goons and controllers, not the progress humans have made. Each to his/her own, of course. As for me, I want to reach the stars. I want to have (real) science find a cure for cancer, and all of the other things that make life shorter and more miserable than it needs to be.

Let's not just curse the dark. Let's light a bonfire of individual liberty and justice.

I agree MamaLiberty on who the problem is and I hope I have done some small part to expose them. Not as much as you but I try.

[jamie]

I have my Stihl chainsaw but I don't have a hefty crosscut saw.  If gas/oil runs out I'm stuck with my little 18" bow saw and an axe. 

knobster, An axe and a small bow saw are better that what the majority of people have. A good one or two man cross cut saw is a real marvel of technology and IMHO, a necessary requirement if you heat with wood. Don't forget a proper file and a saw set.

I lived in a tipi up in the Colorados for a year, with only an axe but that worked because I was not cutting wood to a short length to fit into a stove. I could use "almost" any length of wood by just dragging it inside to the firepit and keep inching it forward as it burned. Worked.

why don't you write a bit about your experience?  I'm sure most folks would be interested.

[knobster]

I have my Stihl chainsaw but I don't have a hefty crosscut saw.  If gas/oil runs out I'm stuck with my little 18" bow saw and an axe. 

knobster, An axe and a small bow saw are better that what the majority of people have. A good one or two man cross cut saw is a real marvel of technology and IMHO, a necessary requirement if you heat with wood. Don't forget a proper file and a saw set.

I lived in a tipi up in the Colorados for a year, with only an axe but that worked because I was not cutting wood to a short length to fit into a stove. I could use "almost" any length of wood by just dragging it inside to the firepit and keep inching it forward as it burned. Worked.

Heh, just noticed that Jamie beat me to the request for more info.  I would love to hear about how you lived like this for a year!

[MamaLiberty]

not that I am even close to being self sufficient.

Why is that even a goal?  I mean, that's great for anyone who wants it, but I can't imagine wanting it.

Nobody can do everything or produce ALL of the things they need, let alone other things they want. Even the most primitive cultures traded and worked together.  Trade and the free flow of ideas, working toward a better life for oneself and family - the opposite of "self sufficient" in my book.

I agree MamaLiberty on who the problem is and I hope I have done some small part to expose them. Not as much as you but I try.

Thanks, but I don't think I've done much of anything except a lot of bitching. But I keep trying too.

[Tahn L.]

not that I am even close to being self sufficient.

Why is that even a goal?  I mean, that's great for anyone who wants it, but I can't imagine wanting it.

Self sufficiency is just another word for freedom. Lack of dependency upon others. The "State" is against it. They want everybody to be dependent upon them.

No ML, its not for everyone, neither is freedom but as I hoped to explain, it can be a good and rich life. Again, health, food, clothing, water, shelter and family is where it's at, not the neat stuff we have, although a lot of that neat stuff can be wonderful.

Jamie and Knobster,

Thanks for the encouragement.

 I have been working on my "autobiography" for a while now and my Daughter keeps pushing me, bless her heart. Maybe I can do that chapter before I work on the ones where I rode "shotgun" on a stagecoach and fought off "Indians" or was a wrangler for a six pony hitch, including being the "fireman" of a red, racing fire wagon, being pulled by 6 galloping steeds. Or being taught to drink beer by the wranglers for the Budweiser 8 horse hitch when I was 12. I have had some shinning times for sure. I will work on the tipi chapter. It started with being broke in Colorado and my gal and I living out of our 54 chevy wagon, when somebody loaned us a book.

 https://www.amazon.com/Indian-Tipi-Its-History-Construction/dp/0806122366

[MamaLiberty]

Self sufficiency is just another word for freedom.

Those words are not the same. Independence has nothing to do with whether or not people depend on each other... VOLUNTARILY.

Freedom is the power to choose for oneself. One can choose freedom in many different ways. Good luck with yours. I much prefer the voluntary association, working together for mutual goals and benefits... VOLUNTARILY. That's the difference between freedom and dependence on government - not if you can do everything for yourself.

[Tahn L.]

Self sufficiency is just another word for freedom.

Those words are not the same. Independence has nothing to do with whether or not people depend on each other... VOLUNTARILY.

Freedom is the power to choose for oneself. One can choose freedom in many different ways. Good luck with yours. I much prefer the voluntary association, working together for mutual goals and benefits... VOLUNTARILY. That's the difference between freedom and dependence on government - not if you can do everything for yourself.

ML, You know that I believe in voluntary trade and association but one can still be dependent upon someone you voluntarily trade with. Even absent government or coercion you can still be dependent. The only way to be totally free of dependence is to be self sufficient. Now, as I have explained, I am not there or even close to being there and doubt that I ever will be but if things go bad, the less dependent you are, the freer you are, IMHO. 

Especially with the basics of food, heat and water. Maybe it's like the difference of needing aspirin and not being allowed to obtain it, either through shortage or rationing and having the knowledge and ability to scrape off the inner bark of the red willow. Dependent on outside sources or being self sufficient to obtain your own. I am not suggesting that everyone need be totally self sufficient upon their own resources, as that is unlikely to happen, even for a small minority but not being dependent upon an electronic part to get your water or a manufactured chain saw part to obtain your firewood for warmth and cooking is a basic component of both, staying free and staying alive.