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Author Topic: "Trolls on the Internet"  (Read 4820 times)

Tahn L.

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"Trolls on the Internet"
« on: September 02, 2015, 10:41:25 am »

I occasionally listen to a program on the radio called Ground Zero while falling asleep. Last night was an interesting program concerning false flags and disinformation. I have no idea if this is true or not but heard a part of it before drifting asleep. Among the things discussed was this:

"A previous secret unit called Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group and other groups that are in the employ of the alphabet agencies are allegedly attempting to control, infiltrate, manipulate, and warp online discourse, and in doing so, are compromising the integrity of the internet itself."

A bit more can be read here, although I could not find an audio link.

http://www.groundzeromedia.org/electronic-jackpot-speak-up-wake-up-and-shut-up/

So, is our forum being "warped" by trolls?
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All human beings have two dogs within them. A good dog and an evil dog. The evil dog is always attacking and fighting the good dog. Which one wins?
The one you feed!
  Native American Story

Government is a meme, woven within a supporting memeplex.

Who ever frames the argument, kicks ass.

From MamaLiberty; "The Price of Liberty (is) self ownership, self control, integrity and non-aggression."

"The lust to control the lives and property of others is the root of all evil". MamaLiberty

Tahn L.

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 10:49:33 am »

Since this is an area I was uninformed about I went to Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Some interesting information. Among other info:

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3]"
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 10:51:33 am by Tahn »
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All human beings have two dogs within them. A good dog and an evil dog. The evil dog is always attacking and fighting the good dog. Which one wins?
The one you feed!
  Native American Story

Government is a meme, woven within a supporting memeplex.

Who ever frames the argument, kicks ass.

From MamaLiberty; "The Price of Liberty (is) self ownership, self control, integrity and non-aggression."

"The lust to control the lives and property of others is the root of all evil". MamaLiberty

RVM45

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2015, 02:19:45 pm »

I read one time that we always view the world through a selective prism.

If one Prism seems to give you a distorted, useless or unaesthetic view of the world—that's fine, swap it for another.

The thing is: All Prisms distort to some degree and there is no such thing as looking at the world with naked eyes.

Something similar to the Uncertainty Principle applies to the Internet—the process of looking changes the content offered.

One person generally has minimal effect, but when you add all the click choices and the popularity and interconnectedness of a site goes up, down and sideways it has an almost infinite but subtle effect on every other site.

Trolls are probably no more influential than any number of other classes of users: Hackers, Otaku, Government Agents, Random Internet Surfers, Goths, Lolitas, Survivalists, Vegans—just whatever…


 

…..RVM45 
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MamaLiberty

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 02:50:38 pm »

Given the vastness of the internet, and the diversity of people who use it, I see something to be wary of, but not to be afraid of.  We each have a choice whether or not to be influenced.

Bet ya there are at least a dozen former trolls at TMM who now require serious psychotherapy themselves. The cats here just don't resist being herded, we often bite and scratch... :)
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The lust to control the lives and property of others is the root of all evil.

DiabloLoco

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 02:58:11 pm »

Given the vastness of the internet, and the diversity of people who use it, I see something to be wary of, but not to be afraid of.  We each have a choice whether or not to be influenced.

Bet ya there are at least a dozen former trolls at TMM who now require serious psychotherapy themselves. The cats here just don't resist being herded, we often bite and scratch... :)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

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Tahn L.

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2015, 08:22:54 pm »

Given the vastness of the internet, and the diversity of people who use it, I see something to be wary of, but not to be afraid of.  We each have a choice whether or not to be influenced.

Bet ya there are at least a dozen former trolls at TMM who now require serious psychotherapy themselves. The cats here just don't resist being herded, we often bite and scratch... :)

I would hope there were a few that changed their minds about us also. Remember when we used to have pretty good discussions with cops about the law and legal process.

It's not so much about being influenced, as we are mostly pretty strong minded and secure people but its like having vulgar drunks at a party. It can also scare off interesting but timid people who truly want a dialog rather that being spit at or barfed on. 
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All human beings have two dogs within them. A good dog and an evil dog. The evil dog is always attacking and fighting the good dog. Which one wins?
The one you feed!
  Native American Story

Government is a meme, woven within a supporting memeplex.

Who ever frames the argument, kicks ass.

From MamaLiberty; "The Price of Liberty (is) self ownership, self control, integrity and non-aggression."

"The lust to control the lives and property of others is the root of all evil". MamaLiberty

MamaLiberty

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2015, 06:20:12 am »

It can also scare off interesting but timid people who truly want a dialog rather that being spit at or barfed on.

We can throw the drunks out easily enough. I think time has proven that the timid and easily offended don't last long around here, and I don't see any point in changing who we are to accommodate them. Going that direction just feeds the whole PC insanity. Their "feelings" are not my problem, at any rate.
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Tahn L.

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2015, 12:21:50 pm »

It can also scare off interesting but timid people who truly want a dialog rather that being spit at or barfed on.

We can throw the drunks out easily enough. I think time has proven that the timid and easily offended don't last long around here, and I don't see any point in changing who we are to accommodate them. Going that direction just feeds the whole PC insanity. Their "feelings" are not my problem, at any rate.

Its not about PC, its about civility and dialog and exchanging ideas without insult and ridicule. Timid people can be libertarians also. Think back to the disgusting sheep jokes that ran off one of Elias's friends. I believe that we can discuss philosophy without the epithets and crudeness. In fact the TMM agreement requests it.

"
1.  Civility:  TMM asks that all participation in the forums be civil and respectful.  Posts which are defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, or violate another individual's rights may be deleted."
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All human beings have two dogs within them. A good dog and an evil dog. The evil dog is always attacking and fighting the good dog. Which one wins?
The one you feed!
  Native American Story

Government is a meme, woven within a supporting memeplex.

Who ever frames the argument, kicks ass.

From MamaLiberty; "The Price of Liberty (is) self ownership, self control, integrity and non-aggression."

"The lust to control the lives and property of others is the root of all evil". MamaLiberty

MamaLiberty

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2015, 01:20:14 pm »

I believe that we can discuss philosophy without the epithets and crudeness. In fact the TMM agreement requests it.

"
1.  Civility:  TMM asks that all participation in the forums be civil and respectful.  Posts which are defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, or violate another individual's rights may be deleted."

Maybe, Tahn... Unfortunately, the definition of those words is under serious attack these days, and the people who insist on defining them for other people are most certainly not "timid." How is that imposition not "PC?"

How do you define "civil and respectful?" Does anyone have authority to define that for you? The transexual demanding to use the girls bathroom at the high school is no doubt totally convinced that he/she is being disrespected and treated in an uncivil manner because some of the girls object... only his/her "feelings" count. And that's what we have to deal with sometimes with trolls and others. I don't know how to reject such imposition without some disrespect. What would you suggest? Just abandon any kind of moderation?

None of us can be free unless we are willing to leave everyone else alone to be free, to believe what they believe and do whatever they wish as long as they don't aggress. And that may be a challenge to people who gather at a forum like this for the expressed purpose of comparing ideas, beliefs and definitions. But I don't think that we're ever going to reach a sweetness and kissy tolerance for the trolls.

But if that's what people here want, let me know. The job of moderator is up for grabs. I've got lots of other things to do...
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Tahn L.

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2015, 02:30:12 pm »

I believe that we can discuss philosophy without the epithets and crudeness. In fact the TMM agreement requests it.

"
1.  Civility:  TMM asks that all participation in the forums be civil and respectful.  Posts which are defamatory, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, or violate another individual's rights may be deleted."

Maybe, Tahn... Unfortunately, the definition of those words is under serious attack these days, and the people who insist on defining them for other people are most certainly not "timid." How is that imposition not "PC?"

How do you define "civil and respectful?" Does anyone have authority to define that for you? The transexual demanding to use the girls bathroom at the high school is no doubt totally convinced that he/she is being disrespected and treated in an uncivil manner because some of the girls object... only his/her "feelings" count. And that's what we have to deal with sometimes with trolls and others. I don't know how to reject such imposition without some disrespect. What would you suggest? Just abandon any kind of moderation?

None of us can be free unless we are willing to leave everyone else alone to be free, to believe what they believe and do whatever they wish as long as they don't aggress. And that may be a challenge to people who gather at a forum like this for the expressed purpose of comparing ideas, beliefs and definitions. But I don't think that we're ever going to reach a sweetness and kissy tolerance for the trolls.

But if that's what people here want, let me know. The job of moderator is up for grabs. I've got lots of other things to do...

Good Lord Mama, I don't think that we can or want to reach a level of  sweetness and kissy tolerance for the trolls but if we cannot discuss things without rancor and epithets, the trolls will have succeeded in closing off rational discussion, which perhaps is their goal and desire. It's certainly not about bathrooms either. It's about communication, not denigration. If you are not allowed by the other mods to control individual flamers and haters, I fear for this forum. It would be like being a bouncer at a bar who is required to keep order but not allowed to eject someone who is always starting fights. Won't work.

And NO, I don't want your job and have always admired the way you fought for civility and always used tact and civility in your own discussions. Perhaps the mods need a posted dictionary of definitions, along with the TMM guidelines, although most all of us know what civility, respect and defamation is.

Perhaps the civility clause should be changed from "may be deleted" to WILL be deleted and the poster MAY be banned by a majority vote of the mods.. Don't know Mama. It seems like a hopeless task if order cannot be kept and my heart goes out to you. I know you have tried to control the verbal assaults throughout the years and I appreciate it, very much.

If I have contributed to your hard task by my questions or posts, I sincerely apologize.

With Love

« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 02:31:49 pm by Tahn »
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All human beings have two dogs within them. A good dog and an evil dog. The evil dog is always attacking and fighting the good dog. Which one wins?
The one you feed!
  Native American Story

Government is a meme, woven within a supporting memeplex.

Who ever frames the argument, kicks ass.

From MamaLiberty; "The Price of Liberty (is) self ownership, self control, integrity and non-aggression."

"The lust to control the lives and property of others is the root of all evil". MamaLiberty

DiabloLoco

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2015, 02:41:32 pm »

I think that ML may have too much responsibility here. It has become this way, because she is the only mod that is here everyday. Maybe there SHOULD be another mod position created. I'm not qualified for it, given my inability to keep my mouth shut when someone is bullying me, but surely there is a regular poster here that can step up to the plate. I mean, if ML wants the help.

Edit- I nominate Bear and knobster :mellow:
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 02:44:39 pm by DiabloLoco »
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MamaLiberty

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2015, 02:58:17 pm »

Don't know Mama. It seems like a hopeless task if order cannot be kept and my heart goes out to you. I know you have tried to control the verbal assaults throughout the years and I appreciate it, very much.

If I have contributed to your hard task by my questions or posts, I sincerely apologize.

With Love

I have been deleting accounts of obvious trolls. I have no problem with them, actually - those who meet my criteria are not tolerated. But I've been vilified for deleting them, as well as for allowing them some time to show their colors. I just have had to do what I thought was right and what Elias wanted.

I can't actually control much of anything else, though I try to help people see when they are being destructive to the conversation... it is an almost impossible task at times. And that's because everyone has their own ideas of what "contribution" - and destructive - actually includes, and far too many wear their feelings on their sleeve, even among the curmudgeons and rabble rousers.

Those who have known me for a long time may remember that it took me quite a while to get over being that way myself!!! I used to take far too much of the give and take here personally, and respond heatedly... and managed not to get damaged too much in the process. Of course, I'm just a stubborn old broad... but I could easily have huffed off mad and never come back. It was always my choice, as it is for anyone else. We can all do better in our relationships, of course, but there just isn't any way I can see to stop some people from being "driven away" by our very human imperfections and rough handed ways sometimes.

Now, every single person reading this can determine for themselves to be more respectful and civil. I posted something about that long ago. https://www.thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=29373.0

We can each urge others to be kinder and more respectful of others, especially those who are new to TMM... but I don't see any viable way to enforce it much. I'm certainly not interested in being the politeness police. In a free society, each person has to give and take as an individual. Nobody's going to make everyone be nice to you...

Just thought... an armed society is a polite society. Maybe each full member needs their own delete button...
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MamaLiberty

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2015, 03:03:30 pm »

I think that ML may have too much responsibility here. It has become this way, because she is the only mod that is here everyday. Maybe there SHOULD be another mod position created. I'm not qualified for it, given my inability to keep my mouth shut when someone is bullying me, but surely there is a regular poster here that can step up to the plate. I mean, if ML wants the help.

Edit- I nominate Bear and knobster :mellow:

Thanks, DL... there are actually a rather large number of designated moderators and administrators at TMM. Some of them no long even visit, for whatever reason. Some "lurk" considerably, and Bill will intervene if he sees problems or if I'm not on line. I would seriously welcome more input from any of them. If any of them want to take over what I do, I'd have no problem with it. If the admin folk want to set up new moderators, or rearrange anything, I'll be happy to cooperate. Just let me know privately. No need to stir all that up here.
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Elias Alias

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2015, 06:48:19 am »

I think that ML may have too much responsibility here. It has become this way, because she is the only mod that is here everyday. Maybe there SHOULD be another mod position created. I'm not qualified for it, given my inability to keep my mouth shut when someone is bullying me, but surely there is a regular poster here that can step up to the plate. I mean, if ML wants the help.

Edit- I nominate Bear and knobster :mellow:

Thanks, DL... there are actually a rather large number of designated moderators and administrators at TMM. Some of them no long even visit, for whatever reason. Some "lurk" considerably, and Bill will intervene if he sees problems or if I'm not on line. I would seriously welcome more input from any of them. If any of them want to take over what I do, I'd have no problem with it. If the admin folk want to set up new moderators, or rearrange anything, I'll be happy to cooperate. Just let me know privately. No need to stir all that up here.

Well, I'll say some things here.
This place deserves to be preserved because of the amazing history it carries on its threads. In countless thousands of threads exist the essence of the human voice, with all its flaws and triumphs. The place is packed with knowledge and wisdom, but much of that knowledge and wisdom is buried beneath trollish distractions and immature blunders. Over the years, however, countless thousands of people have left their markings on our walls as they wandered down our halls. In subtle forms which only, perhaps, a hi-tech computer might assimilate, a development of the human spirit may be traced across the full body of the total threads.

We may recall the great flounce-off by the "Get your hands dirty" crowd who trampled Claire's heart and drove her away from here in frustration. We may remember when James Wesley, Rawles adopted this place as the forum for his SurvivalBlog.com web operation --

http://survivalblog.com/forum/

We may recall that the birth of Oath Keepers was heralded here as the first forum Oath Keepers had.

As I said, there is much history here.

I am not about to let this place disappear. Promise ya.

I've been away for six and a half years, for the most part, with only an occasional rare post here. I have been busy with Oath Keepers. With great gratitude to Stewart Rhodes for shielding me during these past six and a half years, and providing me an income to be his editor, I have been blessed in many ways for having run hard with Stewart during those years.  Oath Keepers is now launched well enough, and under Stewart's control sufficiently enough, that I feel free to divert more time to TMM. I now have four paid associate editors for the Oath Keepers national website, including Shorty Dawkins of TMM, Brandon Smith of Alt-Market, David Codrea of the War on Guns (David being Mike Vanderboegh's partner in exposing the ATF's scandalous "Fast And Furious" gun running op for the Mexican drug cartels), and Jason Van Tatenhove of Liberty Brothers Radio. All those guys being now associate editors at Oath Keepers make it possible for me to put some of myself back into the very organization I named sixteen years ago -- an organization which, with scarmig's help, has maintained a constant online presence since December 1999 -- first it was a Yahoo Club, then moved to scarmig's Liberty Gryphon Forums, then moved into a wonderful php site built by Bark in late 2002/early 2003. It was while I was running The Mental Militia dot org with Bark as my webmaster in 2002 and 2003 that I asked Bark to build this forum, which he did by early summer 2003. He and I gave this place to Claire Wolfe as a gesture of appreciation for her work, her writing, and her voice which was teaching many newbies in the Liberty movement. Claire kept it for four years and gave it back to us providing we renamed it from The Claire Files Forums to The Mental Militia. She inisisted on that because during her tenure as owner of this place, our webmaster, Bark, died, and took the keys to my kingdom with him. I lost the "dot org" site, and Claire, keenly aware of my trauma in losing that website, and knowing she was burned out for dealing with these forums for four years, wanted this place named for TMM as a replacement. It was her way of expressing her gratitude that we had given it to her at no charge four years previously. 

So that was in 2007, about eight years ago.

Since then the place has gone through various stages, but it's still here. And for that we can thank Bill St. Clair and Mama Liberty.

Bill, you're my hero. Mama Liberty, you rule! ;)

Despite my using a smiley, I mean it about ML "rules". Mama Liberty, you just boot anyone you wish any time you wish for any reason you wish, and if you get any flak over it just send the bums to me, okay? What you have done through the years for this place is duly noted and sincerely appreciated by your humble servant. If you want some help (which you'll soon enough definitely want), pick 'em and appoint 'em and let me and Bill and scarmig know, and we'll do all we can to accommodate. If you don't want any help, that's fine too. My point is that I want you to do what is best for you, what makes your workload easier to handle. You are fully authorized to make things easy for yourself. I'm going to need both you and Bill soon enough. By the end of this year, ML, you'll be certain that you want some moderator help, some assistants, or whatever you want to designate them. I am going to take this place public, with hopes that Siilver can hang on for what he thinks would be a rocky ride. (It won't be, but I've not taken time to explain to him that my circles extend beyond a small group of government employees. Silver will discover that soon enough, I'm sure.)

Yes, I'm building a new website for TMM. Have been working on it for over a month, and need a couple more months to make it ready to announce to the world. And I can tell y'all this -- it's gonna be kick-ass, a Psy-Op for the Liberty movement in a very unique way. I'm excited, and I think y'all will be as well.  The site will be multi-media, featuring podcasts, videos, movies, commercial sales including books and movies, advertising, cutting edge analysis, philosophy, research, and a unifying networking empowerment which is already bringing in some wonderful talent. We've got NorthWest Liberty News, Red List News (with Jim White and Dave Hodges), the Liberty Brothers Radio show. We've got DJ's remarkable video analysis of quantum computer interface with satellite technology which now allows fedgov to monitor anyone's brain-wave activity remotely (from satellite) and beam mental patterns back to your "node" on the quantum AI computer network which is mapping the human terrain for the purpose of mastering the human domain. We've got the Fully Informed Jury Association with TMMer Basil Fishbone. And we've got James Jaeger with Matrix Entertainment fiml studios, as well as others. Next week I will be having lunch with Richard Gage of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. I already have told him that I'm inviting him to join TMM.  I've got other names that many of you reading here will recognize, names I will invite once the site is ready to launch.

To launch that site properly, I need to raise some money. To do that, I'm making a danged "raw footage" movie about Montana's "Living Man", who has quite a following around Montana and whose reputation has spread all over the country in some circles, with more than six million views on YouTube channels which carry a certain 8-minute video I shot nearly two years ago, November 2013. One site has over four million seven-hundred-thousand views. I think there ia a market for the full story about this guy, and I'm making that movie as we speak. It should have been done by next week, but will likely take another month. I drive about seventy-five miles south to a studio where Jim White and I are cutting the film and composing it. We have way too much video footage, most of which will not be in the video because we want to limit the length to just over an hour. I have a system in place to produce the movies for professional presentation to a market, and am incorporating TMM to handle that cash flow. Proceeds from DVD sales will finance the needed capital to complete TMM's new website.

And yes, Bill helped me get the site up so I can build it, and yes, I've got several helpers, including TMMers freewoman and MedicineHawk, with Bill available for counsel and tech info. And no, I don't think ML has seen it yet, but I will send her the key tonight and invite her to see for herself that I'm speaking the truth here.

Owing to my work at Oath Keepers over the past six and a half years, and owing to previous connections prior to Oath Keepers, and, ultimately, owing to Fate itself, I've got tons of exciting connections and can pool a very powerful array of names most Liberty movement folks will recognize easily.

So I'm making a movie, helping James Jaeger make a movie, building a website, and working full time for Oath Keepers, all at the same time -- plus -- being a happy slave to two cats, a small herd of deer, and a family of wild turkeys, all of whom come begging at my porch every day, lol.  I mention that so y'all will know why I'm still not going to be free to read a bunch of threads and/or compose posts here, even for a few more months. But it does appear to me that by first of next year I'll actually have time to participate much more here at the forums while also administering the new WWW site. Yay! ;)

ML, I'll PM you with the key after I post this. Thank you again for keeping the candle burning. And thank you Bill St. Clair for keeping this wagon between the ditches. Y'all are both awesome, and you're about to be part of something larger which I trust will make both of you very proud. I'm grateful.

Salute!
Elias

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Elias Alias

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Re: "Trolls on the Internet"
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2015, 07:02:44 am »

I occasionally listen to a program on the radio called Ground Zero while falling asleep. Last night was an interesting program concerning false flags and disinformation. I have no idea if this is true or not but heard a part of it before drifting asleep. Among the things discussed was this:

"A previous secret unit called Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group and other groups that are in the employ of the alphabet agencies are allegedly attempting to control, infiltrate, manipulate, and warp online discourse, and in doing so, are compromising the integrity of the internet itself."

A bit more can be read here, although I could not find an audio link.

http://www.groundzeromedia.org/electronic-jackpot-speak-up-wake-up-and-shut-up/

So, is our forum being "warped" by trolls?

Tahn, you'll love to meet one of our newest members in TMM. Her name is "DJ". She runs "Level 9 News". Check her out --

D J -- GeoINT Casting Neural Net --  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TDAowceJgI

D J on Caravan To Midnight --  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqGEz9IqOrE

D J -- _ JADE II + GeoINT US Government Patents Remote MK Ultra BY: LEVEL9NEWS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-KuFtbRerM

DJ will be one of our featured sections at the new TMM website. She's awesome. I trust that you will like her style of reporting.

Thanks for hanging in here so well, Tahn. By the end of this year you'll prolly be having much more fun with TMM.

Salute!
Elias




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