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[FDD]

In German:
"Nur eines hätte unsere Bewegung stoppen können – wenn unsere Gegner ihr Prinzip verstanden hätten und vom ersten Tag an den Kern unserer neuen Bewegung mit aller Brutalität zerschlagen hätten."

In English:
"Only one thing could have stopped our movement - if our adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement."

Adolf Hitler, 1934

It is interesting to me at least that the impetus for violent opposition to Nazis comes from their own leaders words. I do find it slightly ironic.

If you look at every government, they all started out this way.

[Baked at 420]

In German:
"Nur eines hätte unsere Bewegung stoppen können – wenn unsere Gegner ihr Prinzip verstanden hätten und vom ersten Tag an den Kern unserer neuen Bewegung mit aller Brutalität zerschlagen hätten."

In English:
"Only one thing could have stopped our movement - if our adversaries had understood its principle and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality the nucleus of our new movement."

Adolf Hitler, 1934

It is interesting to me at least that the impetus for violent opposition to Nazis comes from their own leaders words. I do find it slightly ironic.

If you look at every government, they all started out this way.

True, but there are other factors which must be considered in order to form a government. For one, there must be a hierarchy for government to exist, and in the case of flat organizations such as AntiFa and similar groups, there is no hierarchy.

[DiabloLoco]

True, but there are other factors which must be considered in order to form a government. For one, there must be a hierarchy for government to exist, and in the case of flat organizations such as AntiFa and similar groups, there is no hierarchy.

Are the truly ambitious members shuffled out? Doesn't seem like the kind of organization that promotes growth and innovation. Those are created mainly from stiff competition and perceived reward. If all are equal, and that's all they will ever be, where's the incentive to grow beyond what you are now?

[Baked at 420]

True, but there are other factors which must be considered in order to form a government. For one, there must be a hierarchy for government to exist, and in the case of flat organizations such as AntiFa and similar groups, there is no hierarchy.

Are the truly ambitious members shuffled out? Doesn't seem like the kind of organization that promotes growth and innovation. Those are created mainly from stiff competition and perceived reward. If all are equal, and that's all they will ever be, where's the incentive to grow beyond what you are now?

Things are equitable, not equal.

[DiabloLoco]

True, but there are other factors which must be considered in order to form a government. For one, there must be a hierarchy for government to exist, and in the case of flat organizations such as AntiFa and similar groups, there is no hierarchy.

Are the truly ambitious members shuffled out? Doesn't seem like the kind of organization that promotes growth and innovation. Those are created mainly from stiff competition and perceived reward. If all are equal, and that's all they will ever be, where's the incentive to grow beyond what you are now?

Things are equitable, not equal.

So what happens then, when a member of the organization gains more respect/money/power/influence than the others and they are no longer considered equal, but superior? IMO, forced equality=zero growth. For me personally, in my work and in life in general, I don't want to be equal with others. I want to be superior. It gives me something to shoot for and is the source of my drive. Better/faster/higher quality.

[MamaLiberty]

Hmmm, I don't want to form a government, or to participate in one if formed. So, I don't care about equality or superiority, since I simply want to be left alone. I got all that "drive" stuff out of my system long ago.  Now I'm happy to just wake up alive each morning... still able to climb the stairs and reach the coffee maker. Anything after that is gravy.  LOL

[Baked at 420]

So what happens then, when a member of the organization gains more respect/money/power/influence than the others and they are no longer considered equal, but superior?

Respect and influence are possible, but would change nothing organizationally. Money is a non-issue since the point of the movement is classless moneyless society. Power over others comes from hierarchy and if there is no hierarchy there is only the feeble force of one. So good luck with that. The rest of what you said is irrelevant because it was an assumption based on falsehood.

[DiabloLoco]

So what happens then, when a member of the organization gains more respect/money/power/influence than the others and they are no longer considered equal, but superior?

Respect and influence are possible, but would change nothing organizationally. Money is a non-issue since the point of the movement is classless moneyless society. Power over others comes from hierarchy and if there is no hierarchy there is only the feeble force of one. So good luck with that. The rest of what you said is irrelevant because it was an assumption based on falsehood.

I guess I just don't understand the organization. Can't wrap my head around it. I don't understand how it could work.

Without the possibility for advancement and/or monetary gain, what would drive people in such an organization to move forward? Also, without money as a means for exchange/business, wouldn't something else just take it's place, therefore making that new thing/things the defacto "money"?

For example, you manufacture knives. For you, those knives are money. If you make better knives than another cutler, your knives would demand more goods in exchange than the other guy's knives. So, how is that "cashless", how is that not capitalism, and how would such a society not create new barons of industry?

Could you maybe post a summary?

[Cherokee]

Barons of industry are different than government control.

No regulatory government equals a free market.

The barons in a free market can fall when a better knife maker comes along.

Equal opportunity does not mean equal results. If one is not content with their status in the market place, that is potential motivation to do better.

Some may choose to work longer and harder while others may focus on quality, and yet others may rely on more creative or selective marketing.

A society can be equitable while not everyone is equal from an economical standpoint.

Everyone is equal as human beings and the right to life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness.

When governments start issuing business licenses, they have placed a lien on the unalienable right to pursue happiness.

I could expound greatly on the ills of government interventions where there should be none.

Our current government claims we are a capitalistic society with free enterprise. Open a lemonade stand and see how quickly the government shuts you down.

[DiabloLoco]

Barons of industry are different than government control.

No regulatory government equals a free market.

The barons in a free market can fall when a better knife maker comes along.

Equal opportunity does not mean equal results. If one is not content with their status in the market place, that is potential motivation to do better.

Some may choose to work longer and harder while others may focus on quality, and yet others may rely on more creative or selective marketing.

A society can be equitable while not everyone is equal from an economical standpoint.

Everyone is equal as human beings and the right to life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness.

When governments start issuing business licenses, they have placed a lien on the unalienable right to pursue happiness.

I could expound greatly on the ills of government interventions where there should be none.

Our current government claims we are a capitalistic society with free enterprise. Open a lemonade stand and see how quickly the government shuts you down.

I agree with everything you wrote. That is not the society that Baked is promoting though. His "oganization" is Communistic, not capitalist.

[Baked at 420]

Without the possibility for advancement and/or monetary gain, what would drive people in such an organization to move forward?

This is not true of all flat organizations, but in the organization that is coming together at present, there are no monetary impetum, at all. If one person benefits, so does everyone in the group. The primary impetus for advancement is to help your neo-tribal relations.

Also, without money as a means for exchange/business, wouldn't something else just take it's place, therefore making that new thing/things the defacto "money"?

The only business will be the "market of the others" to borrow the term used by the Zapatistas. Internally, resources are shared, products are shared, and land is shared. The only thing that is not shared is housing and personal possessions. The market of the others is a requirement only because capitalism dominates the country and we have to pay property taxes and buy things we can't produce. However this arrangement is temporary. Once our organizations are able to provide for every need internally, we will not need money.

For example, you manufacture knives. For you, those knives are money. If you make better knives than another cutler, your knives would demand more goods in exchange than the other guy's knives. So, how is that "cashless", how is that not capitalism, and how would such a society not create new barons of industry?

In our communities, I will give my labor to others, just as they will give their labor to me. I will be as rich as everyone else. And I don't mind it at all. If I created only for money, there would be no reason to create new things, only what sells out. Just one style, with no new challenges.

Could you maybe post a summary?

We Leftists are notoriously long winded. Rather than me re-inventing the encyclopedia, I will recommend several books and videos.

Books:
Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution by Peter Kropotkin
The Communist Manifesto (only 40 pages, took me just 2 hours to read it) by Marx and Engels
Democratic Confederalism by Abdullah Occlan

Videos:
Anarcho-Syndicalist Organization
https://youtu.be/0RwlaNva_4g
(In my opinion, and this opinion is shared by many people, Pure by-the-book Anarcho-Communism can only be attained through Anarcho-Syndicalist organization, because there are no rulers, no hierarchy, and there is always the option to opt out. This is vastly different fro the State-Communist representative republic model which does not work.)

[Bill St. Clair]

I wish you luck with your commune. As long as everybody in it is there voluntarily, I have no problem with it.

But I doubt it will last for very long. Lots of people tried this kind of thing back in the seventies. Very few lasted.

[Baked at 420]

I wish you luck with your commune. As long as everybody in it is there voluntarily, I have no problem with it.

But I doubt it will last for very long. Lots of people tried this kind of thing back in the seventies. Very few lasted.

The Israeli Kibbutzim are still around though.

[Cherokee]

I wish you luck with your commune. As long as everybody in it is there voluntarily, I have no problem with it.

But I doubt it will last for very long. Lots of people tried this kind of thing back in the seventies. Very few lasted.

The Israeli Kibbutzim are still around though.

I don't know anything about the Israeli Kit and Booty, or whatever you call it, but I would venture to say 100% agreement is highly unlikely,  and participation is likely not 100% voluntary.

[MamaLiberty]

From each according to his ability... to each according to his need. Seems I heard of such a long time ago.  Don't think it worked too well. But good luck with it.