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Author Topic: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!  (Read 2202 times)

MamaLiberty

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This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« on: May 18, 2017, 01:34:55 pm »

1 Times Square pedestrian killed, others hurt after car jumps curb
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/05/18/1-times-square-pedestrian-killed-others-hurt-after-car-jumps-curb.html

One woman was killed and 22 other pedestrians were struck when a speeding car plowed into a crowd in New York's Times Square on Thursday afternoon.
(snip)
Several witnesses told Fox News after the driver crashed, he attempted to escape; however, he was ultimately pinned to the ground by five people who held him at the scene until police arrived.  (Emp. mine. ML)
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knobster

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2017, 07:55:49 am »

Wow.  Good for them!

So question then: these five people pinned him down until police arrived.  How would this scenario play out in a voluntary, liberty-minded, ZAP community?

This guy obviously committed aggression.  He was stopped by these five citizens and held down.  Should the families of victims then dole out the punishment?
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MamaLiberty

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2017, 08:11:02 am »

Wow.  Good for them!

So question then: these five people pinned him down until police arrived.  How would this scenario play out in a voluntary, liberty-minded, ZAP community?

This guy obviously committed aggression.  He was stopped by these five citizens and held down.  Should the families of victims then dole out the punishment?

That would be up to the individuals and the community in which this happened. It simply can't be decided ahead of time in a truly "free country."

I would not have been surprised to see those five people beat the shit out of the driver, even in NYC... but I'm sure they'd have had a problem with the "cops" then. But I think they've come a ways from the days when people just stood around and gawked while a woman was raped and murdered...
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Chase

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2017, 09:48:25 am »

I've heard, (and who knows it may be true) that the guy was high, this puts it in the same category as drunk driving, so requiring him to pay damages would be the way to go.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2017, 10:21:54 am »

I've heard, (and who knows it may be true) that the guy was high, this puts it in the same category as drunk driving, so requiring him to pay damages would be the way to go.

How would he pay "damages" for the death of the woman he ran over?  His being "high" is no excuse, and the actual impairment was probably from alcohol, not cannabis. He had a history of that. In any case, he chose to drive seriously impaired. I'm not seeing much difference between that and any other intentional murder. It sure as hell wasn't an "accident." I wouldn't cut him any slack myself. If I'd been standing there when he hit her, I'd probably have shot him.
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Chase

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 11:09:20 am »

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How would he pay "damages" for the death of the woman he ran over? 

Same way damages would be paid in any other wrongful death case, Claire wrote a Haryville story that covered this very subjet


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His being "high" is no excuse,


No it's an aggravating circumstance.


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If I'd been standing there when he hit her, I'd probably have shot him.

Wouldn't that have deprived his victims of any chance of being made whole? What if in your zeal for retribution you had been wrong? What if a person who came to the scene didn't witness the actual crash but only you firing a weapon and shot you?

The government certainly likes the shoot first and find out the facts later (or never) Freedomistas should know better.
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MamaLiberty

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2017, 12:16:53 pm »


Wouldn't that have deprived his victims of any chance of being made whole? What if in your zeal for retribution you had been wrong? What if a person who came to the scene didn't witness the actual crash but only you firing a weapon and shot you?

The government certainly likes the shoot first and find out the facts later (or never) Freedomistas should know better.

Lots of "what ifs" in this life. If I'd been standing there when she was run over, there wouldn't be any questions about it. He killed her. Period.  And my shooting in self defense or the defense of others in any situation might well seem to deprive the families of some sort of restitution. You can't have it both ways. And a criminal like this is highly unlikely to be a productive person anyway... a habitual drunk. Oh please. What kind of restitution would be possible from him? You going to give him a job, or enslave him somehow? How many years servitude would that girl's life be worth?

It's a nasty question all around. There are no perfect answers. And I did say I'd "probably" shoot him. No guarantees, coming or going.
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Chase

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2017, 12:53:58 pm »

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Lots of "what ifs" in this life. If I'd been standing there when she was run over, there wouldn't be any questions about it. 

And you assume you would know all of the relevant details in that instant?

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He killed her. Period.


And you would've killed him, period, should any person who witnessed only that, have jumped to any conclusion about you?

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And my shooting in self defense or the defense of others in any situation

Shooting any person after the fact is not self defense, or defense of others, it is retribution, which must be considered

If say a person was in the act of harming others then of course killing them might be necessary, but if the person is of no immediate threat, there is no need, so the killing would be purely gratuitous.


Quote
And a criminal like this is highly unlikely to be a productive person anyway... a habitual drunk. Oh please. What kind of restitution would be possible from him?


Ted Kennedy and Laura Bush both killed others while driving drunk, and both are (were) quite well off. There are in fact any large number of wealthy people and even productive people who are drunks or druggies, Reefer Madness was not a documentary.

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You going to give him a job,


Before or after this crash?

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or enslave him somehow?


The woman's family could hold this man in servitude until his debt was paid.


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How many years servitude would that girl's life be worth?

That would be up to her family, as I said Claire wrote an excellent Hardyville piece on exactly this subject.

Here:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/hardyville-the-deal-with-the-devil-part-vi-arbitration-by-claire-wolfe/
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 01:05:53 pm by Chase »
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MamaLiberty

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2017, 01:29:33 pm »

Well, Chase, you live your "what ifs" and suppositions and I'll live mine. I'll make my own judgments and you make yours. I'll live with the consequences of mine too, just as you presumably will. Neither of us was there for this what if. We can only guess. And we won't know what we would do until it comes to us, of course. Here, it's all speculation.

I never said that shooting him for killing that girl was "self defense." Your words, not mine. I don't happen to see much difference, but I can respect that you do. I'm seeing it as he's going to continue running over people unless stopped - which he did. He happened to be stopped ultimately by hitting something he couldn't run over... but a good many people were injured before that... and some may still die. I think the whole idea of restitution and whatever comes AFTER that, don't you? I'm not going to worry about that while he's still running over other people.
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Chase

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 01:32:43 pm »

Well, Chase, you live your "what ifs" and suppositions and I'll live mine. I'll make my own judgments and you make yours. I'll live with the consequences of mine too, just as you presumably will. Neither of us was there for this what if. We can only guess. And we won't know what we would do until it comes to us, of course. Here, it's all speculation.

I never said that shooting him for killing that girl was "self defense." Your words, not mine. I don't happen to see much difference, but I can respect that you do. I'm seeing it as he's going to continue running over people unless stopped - which he did. He happened to be stopped ultimately by hitting something he couldn't run over... but a good many people were injured before that... and some may still die. I think the whole idea of restitution and whatever comes AFTER that, don't you? I'm not going to worry about that while he's still running over other people.

If he's still running over people, by all means try and stop him (though shooting him may not accomplish this) but after he's out of the car and pinned to the sidewalk, he can't rum anybody over
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MamaLiberty

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2017, 01:36:21 pm »


If he's still running over people, by all means try and stop him (though shooting him may not accomplish this) but after he's out of the car and pinned to the sidewalk, he can't rum anybody over

Who said I was planning to shoot him while he was pinned to the sidewalk? :) Not me.
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knobster

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Re: This!!! Bystandedrs take down attacker- in New York!
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2017, 07:10:48 am »


If he's still running over people, by all means try and stop him (though shooting him may not accomplish this) but after he's out of the car and pinned to the sidewalk, he can't rum anybody over

Who said I was planning to shoot him while he was pinned to the sidewalk? :) Not me.

Had this punk hit/killed someone I knew then I would have done something to him.  Even while pinned.  Maybe not shoot but there would be fist-pummeling and foot-stomping.  Would I have been arrested?  Maybe.  My actions, my consequences.
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