Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Misfit]

For those fellow Moles still living in the system and filing tax returns, I am proud to say that Mr. Misfit and I have successfully slid in under the federal and state tax threshold and are paying NO, NADDA, NEIN taxes for 2004! (Other than the inescapable Social Security tax.) Yeah, we really made that little this past year.

Now, I'm off to write my cookbook 1001 Bean Recipes (btw, we've discovered that Pinto beans are much more digestable than some other varieties) and wait for our confiscated money to come back to us.

[Junker]

Congrats on no taxes, but also condolences on low income. And best of luck for all your future undertakings for jobs, for gulching, or whatever you decide.

[Delos]

Speaking of confiscated earnings, the last time I filed, a long time ago, I filled in the "amount due for return" line with the same amount that I filled in the "amount withheld" line.

They sent me the whole works except for 60 something bux they said they were going to hold on to while they thought about my form!

   

[Junker]

They said they can think or was that just a reply form?    

[RagnarDanneskjold]

They said they can think or was that just a reply form? 

Nahhhh, it's a form letter. Most likely has a number on it for what form letter it is. Thinking is too taxing for them. I've gotcher 1040 right here

Misfit. I second Junker with the caveat that it reaaaalllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy pisses me off that folks have to "create poverty" in order to avoid the taxman.

[ZooT_aLLures]

pisses me off that folks have to "create poverty" in order to avoid the taxman.

Think of it more as cutting off the enemies supply lines*grin*

[dervish]

Yet people say the only reason people won't pay taxes is because they're selfish bastards who want all their own money.  Even when they choose poverty.  

[RagnarDanneskjold]

pisses me off that folks have to "create poverty" in order to avoid the taxman.

Think of it more as cutting off the enemies supply lines*grin*

I have to really twist things to see it that way. And I sure can't *grin* about it. Cutting your own supply lines to cut the enemies suppy lines just somehow does not seem to compute.

[Joel]

I have to really twist things to see it that way. And I sure can't *grin* about it. Cutting your own supply lines to cut the enemies suppy lines just somehow does not seem to compute.

TANSTAAFL.

I've noticed that many freedom-loving people have developed such a distaste for the notion of being tagged and inventoried like sheep, periodically rounded up and fleeced, that they'll scour their own lives if that's what it takes to keep it to a minimum.  It's the equivalent of a landowner burning his own crops to keep them out of an enemy's hands.  Done with a tear in your eye, perhaps.  But done with a will.

Some things, including self respect, are worth a poverty income.  It's all a question of what you value.

[Claire]

Some things, including self respect, are worth a poverty income.  It's all a question of what you value.

Amen, John DeWitt.

I also must add (though I know I've said it before) that although it's a very sad thing that anyone is compelled to make less money in order to be true to oneself, there can also be opportunity in making less.

You discover things about yourself. You discover that some of the possessions, some aspects of the lifestyle of money-making weren't as important to you as you thought they were. You discover simple, uncomplicated joys.

Yeah ... and you discover the virtues of pinto beans, as well. (Sorry, Misfit, I know your poverty hasn't been voluntary, and that's a bitch.)

I don't advocate voluntary poverty or voluntary simplicity for everyone. Just saying that the choice is far less onerous and far more wondrous than it seems from outside.

David Gross (a TCF member) has written eloquently about tax resistance through reduced income.

[RagnarDanneskjold]

I understand the points about the poverty thing and all the opportunities that might crop up and starving the enemy.
There are more paths to self respect than choosing poverty. I would personally rather choose affluence (unfortunately, I ain't got it) and fight the bastards to keep what's mine. There is also self respect in that.
I also notice, on most web pages I visit (let's use The Libertarian Enterprise as an example) that those who run the sites and provide the articles, etc., are constantly asking for money to keep the fight going. If all their readers are choosing poverty to spite the fucking JBT assholes and all the other rat bastards who think what's yours is theirs, who is going to help out these web 'zines with funding?
I have bought all of Claire's books, all of Vin's books and many of L. Neil's books. I can't do that with poverty.
How do you buy arms and ammo?
In the guns topic there is a thread on what would you do with 1000 bux. Poverty does not provide 1000 bux.
I salute all who choose that route. I would much rather have Bill Gates' bank account and take these mofos on with my own friggin' army. Of course, that ain't gonna happen, either.
I would like to be able to purchase a large chunk of land (or many large chunks in different locations).
I know that some who choose "poverty" are actually affluent in fact, but in poverty on paper. That's ideal. That also takes resources to accomplish. Not just the resources of being affluent, but the resources to be able to move that affluence behind the Wizard's curtain.

It really is a tough situation. I simply despise all government intervention. Why, when starting or running a business, should the effects of government intervention have to be taken into account when making business decisions? How much resources of time and money are simply pissed away factoring these intrusions? How many CPAs and lawyers could this country do without if they weren't needed as prohpylactics against government? Why should any of us have to factor 'being tagged and inventoried like sheep, periodically rounded up and fleeced," into our day to day life decisions? [For anyone who thinks I am ignorant or naive, these should be obvious rhetorical questions]

The closer it gets to April 15, and the more I see the usual charade of compliance games going on, the more my ire is raised.

[RagnarDanneskjold]

I know that some who choose "poverty" are actually affluent in fact, but in poverty on paper. That's ideal.

I noticed that this is in the Mole topic. My discussion above is more appropriate for the money and taxation topic. This discussion would be more appropriate, I think, in the Ghost topic. Mole v IRS would more aptly be regarding those who worked within the IRS or state taxing departments to sab  O  tage their collection efforts.  Therefore, most likely, very little discussion would go on in this area.  

[Claire]

I would personally rather choose affluence (unfortunately, I ain't got it) and fight the bastards to keep what's mine. There is also self respect in that.

 

I sure can't disagree with that.

I also notice, on most web pages I visit (let's use The Libertarian Enterprise as an example) that those who run the sites and provide the articles, etc., are constantly asking for money to keep the fight going. If all their readers are choosing poverty to spite the fucking JBT assholes and all the other rat bastards who think what's yours is theirs, who is going to help out these web 'zines with funding?

And to a great extent, I agree with that point, too. The scruffy little Agitators and Ghosts work together with (usually) more prosperous Moles in the same cause. If all TCRers and LRT Round Tablers were poor, old Hunter (for instance) might still be in jail, framed as the Ohio highway sniper.

However, judging by the donations that come in to clairewolfe.com, I see almost no connection between affluence and willlingness to support freedom-oriented web sites. Some people in really difficult circumstances contribute. Others who are quite affluent don't. Our most generous donor makes a good, but not spectacular, living. Our next most generous is living through a time of hard sacrifices, and the money he sends represents a very big deal to him. People in extreme poverty have sent $5 bills. Several millionaires who regularly read the blog or TCF have given zip.

I don't know the reasons and in a sense it doesn't matter. But sometimes a person who's more affluent on paper is actually deep in debt. Or simply doesn't like the seeming "something for nothing" attitudes of all us little weblings begging for his money. (I was once part of the entourage of a super-wealthy philanthropist, and the way that charities picked on him like hungry vultures then complained when he "only" gave them $10k or $50k turned me off forever to supporting most conventional/institutional charities.)

OTOH, some far less affluent "little guys," feeling the financial pinch themselves, and already attuned to making sacrifices, go out of their way to be generous to others. It's even possible that some of the low-income folk have more ready cash than some of the more affluent because they're debt-free and don't spend much on luxuries.

Not judging; just noting that affluence isn't a good predictor of financial freedom support. I'm all for everybody getting what $$ they want and doing with it what most pleases them. I'm grateful to you for buying my books. I'm grateful to those who give, whether it's financially easy or hard for them, because they all have freedom in their hearts.

Claire

[debeez]

Yet people say the only reason people won't pay taxes is because they're selfish bastards who want all their own money.

Selfish bastard...that's me.  Or at least it would be me if I wasn't so damned afraid of losing what I've got by not paying taxes.  But I am still a selfish bastard, because I truly believe that every penny of that money I have earned belongs to me and no one else.

For me, it's simple.  NO ONE, not the government, not my family, not my friends, have the right to take what I've got.  What I give voluntarily, that's a gift.  And then when it comes to taxes, it's involuntary but with an eye on the bigger picture.  Why lose my home, or possibly my freedom, in exchange for not paying taxes?

It isn't a decision I am completely comfortable with, but it's one I've made, and I'll stick with it until I find a way to get away with better...as in paying little or no taxes.  What I would give to find myself a cash only business that I could hide my income in!

To me, paying taxes is syonymous with giving cash to a beggar on the street corner...I simply don't trust them to make the right decisions.  What are the right decisions for my money?  The ones that I make.  In the end, bad or good decision, I will have made it, and I alone am culpable for the outcome.  

In my mind it comes down to this--personal responsibility.  I believe that I answer to myself, and no other.  And I should be responsible for how every penny of my money is spent.  Otherwise, how am I to know it's being done properly?

Some examples:
It seems that we pay a lot of taxes towards our roads around here.  And yet, Missouri roads are some of the worst in the country.  So where the hell is the money going?

We also have a Missouri lottery, as well as legal casinos (the "boats").  Both of these are supposed to bring record amounts of funding to our schools and "help our children".  Our children and schools have been "helped" so much by the advent of the lottery and casinos that Kansas City lost its federal funding several years ago due to low test scores and a shortage of teachers. We also pay ever-increasing amounts of taxes.  Every local election has more referendums for additional property taxes to pay for new schools...and the average test scores just keep sliding lower.

Let me keep my money, and I'll educate my child on my own dime (kind of like I do already), and the government and their taxes can take a hike.  Something tells me I'd be living a lot better than I am now.

 

[byron]

debeez...

...gives some good examples of the same state tax issues, for the way taxes are brought in to the coffers,  yet never seem to be enough. Those examples are probably typical all across the country. Not a day goes by where the local news story is "because of the increased population, there are increased cars on the road, and therefore taxes must increase to pay for new roads, and more toll roads are in the future." (also common are making toll roads out of already built and paid for roads?) Where does the money go? If population is increasing, isn't the tax revenue increasing automatically as well? And as taxes increase, quality decreases....because government can't run a thing effectively. Nothing new. ........ samo crap with any other of the examples, lottery proceeds, property tax referendums, etc...never makes sense as to why they must have more from the fruits of our labor. Yet there is never a shortage of good citizen idiots being interviewed on TV saying how they don't mind paying extra just so they can have more roads, more schools, and even agreeing that paying more for garbage pk-up when it is cut to one-day-week instead of two is a good thing. Baffling shit to watch the majority's thought processes....they never get it...the light never comes on in their bulb.