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Author Topic: ID Resist  (Read 135550 times)

freebird

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #240 on: June 08, 2006, 02:28:35 am »

the troops in iraq are not substantially outnumbered and yet cannot gain or maintain control. any troops in amerika will be very outnumbered just by the gun owners and not just the people. and if the would-be dictator keeps troops outside amerika pursuing some empire-building agenda, the number of troops here will be insufficient for control. i won't say it wouldn't get bloody, but the troops are going to be limited by the means they can use without starting a revolution if they used heavy weapons and started massacring people to gain control. and that isn't even allowing for mass desertions among troops ordered to destroy their own hometowns or those who would not fire on their own countrymen.

It's an interesting scenario to think about, and no doubt the Pentagon has already given it extensive analysis and planning.   What I think is instructive is how many troops claimed to be "uncomfortable" going door to door disarming people in New Orleans after Katrina swept through.  But they did it anyways.  Don't military personnel have to sign something asking if they would follow orders to fire on American civilians?    Perhaps this is a topic that should be picked up on another thread.

actually, i thought that rigging the house after you built an escape tunnel that exited into another building not in your name was the better scenario. make the house very difficult to make an immediate dynamic entry and while they are breaking in you go out the tunnel and get to your safe house and turn on the monitors and wait for the bad guys to accumulate in the house and the area before you set off the "surprise".

of course, this presupposes that someone would be ruthless enough to make something like that a reality.
So I see that I am not the only person who has wondered when someone is going to try and pull this off!  Nice...

It just blows me away how these criminal SWAT team JBTs can break into the wrong house, murder people in their beds at 4am, and are never be held accountable.  The police in this country literally get away with murder on a routine basis.   How many other countries are being terrorized in this fashion?
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Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #241 on: June 08, 2006, 06:55:30 am »

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It's an interesting scenario to think about, and no doubt the Pentagon has already given it extensive analysis and planning.   What I think is instructive is how many troops claimed to be "uncomfortable" going door to door disarming people in New Orleans after Katrina swept through.  But they did it anyways.  Don't military personnel have to sign something asking if they would follow orders to fire on American civilians?    Perhaps this is a topic that should be picked up on another thread.

The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) states that no serviceman may refuse to follow a 'lawful' order.  That one word makes all the difference (just like taxable income or unanmous consent of the governed, ;) ) In addition, the oath that one takes on entry into service says that you will protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foriegn and domestic.

That being said, I saw all kinds of Constitutional deviations and unlawful orders followed, when I was in the Navy.  Posse comotatus has not be repealed, so technically, any operations or orders to US servicepeople, on American soil, against American civilians, would be unlawful.  Also any operations or orders which violated the Constitutional rights of Citizens, would be unlawful.

EDIT: One other thing, the UCMJ also protects a serviceman from prosecution for refusing to follow an unlawful order.  A squad leader cannot order his squad to rob a bank.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 06:58:25 am by Jeffersoniantoo »
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SouthernPatriot

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #242 on: June 08, 2006, 07:44:04 am »

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I would tend to all agree that America has the most prevalant "gun culture".  Whether or not having those guns will allow Americans to get their freedom back is subject to debate.  One need look no further than Iraq to see what is working against the US Military.  It is primarily EID's and RPG's...not small arms.  If things ever came to civil war in this country, freedom fighters will be going up against the entire might of the US Military, body armor and all.  So I tend to doubt how effective small arms are going to be in such a scenario.  If every citizen was allowed to stock body armor, RPG's and artillery shells, then you might have a formidable resistance. 

We are allowed to stock body armor, it is possible to make homemade explosives, bazooka's, etc. that work quite well, and .50 Rifles do a GREAT deal of damage against a great variety of things including military vehicles, artillary, etc. And, yes, being armed helps resist tyranny. If nothing else, it scares the politicians from banning guns. They'll do it eventually, but they have to go slow b/c if they go all-out all at once, they know they'll lose a lot. All successful genocides have been preceded by the disarming of the victims so don't tell me being armed is USELESS. When the First American Revolution broke out, the fighting began because the British were coming to confiscate muskets and powder. It was arms confiscations that sparked the revolution. And because the colonists still had arms, they eventually won the war.

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Regardless, I do not advocate violent revolution, because I do not believe in shedding innocent blood.  What needs to happen in America is a revolution in people's minds.  Once that happens, and the state's perception of legitimacy is destroyed, we can look forward to a new era of freedom and prosperity.   Hopefully bankruptcy will bring down the US govt as soon as possible, thus limiting the number of people that it can murder before it expires.

I agree to a point. But America was founded on the completion of a successful violent revolution, and the Declaration of Independence States that is is the people's right and duty to overthrow such (tyrannical, oppressive) government when their rights have been continuasly usurped. Thomas Jefferson also said that the price of liberty is the blood of BOTH Patriots and Tyrants. Are you saying you disagree with the founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration of Independence, and the founding of America? I don't and that is why I treasure private gun ownership so much and will resist violently if need be. I agree that innocent blood should not be shed but are the politicians who pass the laws innocent? Are the troops who obey orders (and in the meantime violate the very Constitution they have sworn to uphold) innocent? Were the nazis innocent just because they didn't know what they were doing was wrong? I don't think they were. It is their duty to inform themselves and not become indoctrinated. True, bloodshed is never good, but at times it is necessary. And when the UN come to confiscate our guns, are they innocent? No. The UN is EVIL. Always have been, always will be. I agree with you. I want a revolution of minds and bankruptcy to bring down the FedGov. But when enough minds come to our side, there may be a civil war or revolution. And when there is, I'll be ready and not disarmed or in a foreign country doing my fellow countryment and Patriots here no good.

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While there are still many good people left in America, my personal perception is that most Americans are in a state of deep denial, ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE EVENTS OF 9-11.  Decades of govt schools have dumbed people down to the point where they simply to do not appear to have the critical thinking skills, nor the intellectual framework necessary for the aforementioned mental revolution to take place.  That said, I'll be damned if I'm going down with the ship.  Are you going to be one of the jews that had the foresight to get "the hell out of Dodge" (Germany) while the getting was good?   Or are you going to wait until you're being ordered onto a boxcar bound for some detention camp?

Agree, most people are in a state of denial and have been indoctrinated. To your question, neither one. I won't run away (except to Wyoming) and I won't be lead away. I will resist when they come for me if I'm not already a guerilla or militia unit running operations against the FedGov.


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I'm giving it serious thought.  But with each passing month I think it would be just plain safer to be physically located outside the jurisdiction of the US.  Plus I would much rather see the rest of the world than hole up in Wyoming.  I'll take a winter on a tropical island in the carribean over a winter in Wyoming anytime.
you are true. it will be safer to be physically located outside the USA. But safety isn't the ONLY key. Freedom is. Well about the winter, I agree I'd prefer nice tropical winter sun to winter in Wyoming. But there are places in Wyoming where the wind isn't too bad and the winter's are not too harsh. And once again, there is a price of liberty. I'm willing to pay the small price of uncomfortable winter. After all, our founding fathers lived out harsh winters without proper boots or clothes and many died so we could enjoy the freedom we have today (what little is left anyways). I'm not gonna run away and through away their lives like that. They fought so we could live in a free country. It is the world's last chance. If we don't wake up and return America to the way it used to be, whether that is by peaceful or violent revolution or a divided country, then all they did for us is lost.

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I don't know what good private gun ownership is going to do up against the might of the police state, unless you just wanted to cap yourself before being arrested/imprisoned/tortured.  Depending on where you wanted to make your last stand, why not rig your car or house up with explosives, and then light that fucker up when the JBT's came to arrest/imprison/torture you?   You better BELIEVE they are going think twice before making their next "dynamic entry" after something like that happens, hahaha. 
Wonderful idea. I've heard of that suggestion more than once and as a matter of fact have thought of that and plan to do that very thing. Small arms against the actual confiscation may do no good to yourself. But it sure as hell will make the next JBT re-consider whether going in to get those guns is really worth it. If everyone shoots a few JBTs before being taken out, the JBTs will eventually stop coming. They don't have the guts and many have families to think about. And, rifles will do a lot of damage when you are fighting them in rifleman teams. You can take out posts, vehicles, police checks, politicians, etc. all with a rifle at a distance. Engage in a fight rather than defending yourself against a SWAT team could work. And, I will do that and light those fuckers up and they won't live to tell the tale. And I'll be out of their, down my tunnel or other escape route with the rest of my militia/guerilla/rebel team and long gone before they find out where I went. And from that day on, I will be fighting them properly, with the odds on my side as I explained above.

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Come to think of it, wouldn't it be great to see some crazy hermit sumbitch dude hole up in his house, waiting for a SWAT team to bust in with guns blazing so he can serve them up a king size helping of high-explosive souffle?!   Let 'em bust into the the house to serve their stupid (token) warrant for some stupid victimless crime, get inside and then BOOM!!!!  Can you imagine?  News helicopters circling around the neighborhood as a big mushroom cloud blooms 300 feet high over the surburban landscape.  A few screaming burning bodies stagger outside of the house and collapse. 

Ya, that would be amazing. I will do something similar but I'll be out of the house so I don't go with them. And then I'll fight them til' I die or they lose. ANd I'll take ALOT of them with me.
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Seriously though, I think you're better off building a new life outside the US than living here as some kind of hunted runaway slave, if things continue the way they are going.  The nation-state is going to become increasingly vicious and tyrannicaly as it moves towards the brink.  IMHO it's best just to get the hell out of the way!

Maybe I'd be better off. Better off isn't what I'm looking for, I'm looking for liberty and the chance to take my America back from those assholes who are destroying it right now. Oh, and pardon my ignorance but what is IMHO? I've seen it all over and cannot figure it out for the life of me. Oh, I am so stupid.  :huh:  :laugh:

Later,

J
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Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #243 on: June 08, 2006, 08:09:58 am »

IMHO="In My Humble/Honest Opinion"

There is a thread on internet abbreviations somewhere...I thought it was on the bulliten board, but I don't see it now...

 :mellow:
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Jack21221

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #244 on: June 08, 2006, 12:21:27 pm »

SouthernPatriot:

Bullet proof vests are illegal in Maryland and quite a few other states if I recall correctly. Am I wrong on this?
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Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #245 on: June 08, 2006, 02:54:52 pm »

In Kentucky, I think you can have and wear any class of body armor, but if you commit a felon, with a gun, while wearing body armor, it is an additional felony charge....I think ;) ...

 :mellow:
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Roy J. Tellason

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #246 on: June 14, 2006, 05:12:11 pm »

the troops in iraq are not substantially outnumbered and yet cannot gain or maintain control. any troops in amerika will be very outnumbered just by the gun owners and not just the people. and if the would-be dictator keeps troops outside amerika pursuing some empire-building agenda, the number of troops here will be insufficient for control. i won't say it wouldn't get bloody, but the troops are going to be limited by the means they can use without starting a revolution if they used heavy weapons and started massacring people to gain control. and that isn't even allowing for mass desertions among troops ordered to destroy their own hometowns or those who would not fire on their own countrymen.

It's an interesting scenario to think about, and no doubt the Pentagon has already given it extensive analysis and planning.   What I think is instructive is how many troops claimed to be "uncomfortable" going door to door disarming people in New Orleans after Katrina swept through.  But they did it anyways.

That's because they weren't in their home town.  And that's the way TPTB will play it,  having all sorts of transport going on so nobody's doing it in their home town,  which will make it easier to get it done.

I haven't heard anything about any legal repercussions of that either,  has anybody else?

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Don't military personnel have to sign something asking if they would follow orders to fire on American civilians?

Google "29 Palms" or "Twenty-Nine Palms" or something like that.  It was a questionnaire that was given to one group at one point in time,  and it created quit a stir at the time.
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Tom P.

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #247 on: June 14, 2006, 05:36:47 pm »

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That's because they weren't in their home town.  And that's the way TPTB will play it,  having all sorts of transport going on so nobody's doing it in their home town,  which will make it easier to get it done.

Kind of like what the Sov's did against Finland. Stalin was afraid people who lived there wouldnt be prepared to fight people who were so similar to themselvs, so he brought people up from the southern USSR (georgia, armenia, etc) to do the dirty work.

Of course, it backfired then... the locals decimated the poor boys from the south who were totally unable to deal with the local conditions (mostly the cold and snow).

That variable is not likely to effect most people in the US, but a new variable IS. The internet and other methods of instant communication would make it damn hard for GI Joe to keep playing the role when he finds out from Mom that Grandpa was shot and grandma was dragged out of the house in handcuffs because they didnt WANT to get "escorted" anywhere for no domn "mandatory" anything.
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SouthernPatriot

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #248 on: June 15, 2006, 04:57:08 am »

freebird,

Also, there is one more thing I forgot to mention about the importance of the right to keep and bear arms. If a revolution or civil war or the FedGov comes under attack by guerilla warfare small arms will be needed. The reason: In any type of guerilla warfare, you only need enough firepower to take the enemy's to use against them. So, when I am in America with a .50 Rifle, M14 and Glock and you are in Costa Rica without weapons, I will be able to use those small arms to attack the enemy and take from him mortars, anti-aircraft guns, body armor, equipment (i.e. NVDs), ammo, M16s, machine guns, mines, whatever that particular unit is carrying. In guerilla warfare, you don't need enough firepower to defeat the enemy, just to take his firepower from him to use against him. So, when USA turns into a TOTAL Police State and small arms are banned, I will have mine and I will fight back. ANd, using guerilla warfare tactics I believe we may have a chance. So, even if you are correct that we will need more firepower such as mortars, with even the simplest of small arms, a guerilla unit will be able to aquire everything needed to win the war.

And besides that, small arms are not useless. The Jews in the Warshaw ghetto held off the Nazis, the strongest military force in the world, for 42 days I believe. It was over a month, and I think 42 days was the last survivor's deaths/escapes. With only handguns, a few rifles, a couple of machine guns, molotov cocktails, and a couple of homemade mines, (and some of the guns only had 20 rds ammo) a couple hundred resistors held off the strongest military force in the world for over a month.

And you're telling me that we will fail with common ammo types (i.e. .50 BMG, .308, .223), tens of thousands of rds of stocked up ammo, training, already formed militia units & rifleman teams, knowledge from books about guerilla warfare, homemade explosives, shooting, tactics, etc. that we will fail? I highly doubt it. Not if we have the courage and wisdom to realize when to shoot back and when not to. We have time to prepare and to wake up others. Don't run - stay here and continue waking up those around you. We need all the resistors we can get. And re-consider Wyoming - I think it can work if enough people like you who are moving away instead of there, move there instead. And if enough libertarians would get off their asses and work for freedom - by moving there rather than working hopelessly for their candidate to win in their state - that will never happen. But it can happen if we all go to one state and liberate it. Give it some more thought.

J

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SouthernPatriot

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #249 on: June 15, 2006, 08:02:18 am »

Jack,

I am sure you are correct, but as you can see, not all states. BTW, do you know what other states it is illegal? They are legal in Kentucky, and in SC where I live and in WY where I plan to move to. I would imagine that in most of the southern and western states except California it would be legal. My point is that it is accessible here in America (for the most part), so that is not a real disadvantage. There is no federal law banning it - yet. And NVDs are legal as are most camo clothing and much military equipment.

Also freebird,

Even if you are 100% correct that small arms will do no good against big brother, they do well against criminals such as burglers, rapists, street gangs, carjackers, murderers and the like. So, though, in the end, they may not stop tyranny (according to you - I'm not agreeing with you yet), they do stop criminals. And so that is just one more reason that I value the RTKABA so much when choosing where I live.

J
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badmuggafugga

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #250 on: June 18, 2006, 05:20:56 pm »

The discussion regarding martial law reminded me of a good post from a few years ago by a guy I don't know on a .mil/LE board I rarely visit any more.  From what I gleaned when he was an active member on that board, my guess is that he was an Ulster Catholic and later spent time in SA, Zimbabwe, and/or some other African garden spots (that background experience will be germane to the following passage, which I've taken the liberty of editing slightly where you see italics in parentheses).  The following is in response to a question regarding the .mil/LE establishment's ability to keep the lid on in the event of a crisis.

"If an event is localised and of short to medium duration, then yes.  If it's widespread, long term, and truly catastrophic . . . no. Not even with irregular forces.  (XXXXX) is more the voice of logic here, by the way.  While I have no doubt that everyone's opinions are well-intentioned, you are all providing the theoretical textbook answers conjured, quite obviously, by pseudo-intelligentsia who have no experience in such matters.  I assure you, sirs, that being in the midst of a war zone or other hostile environment with the well-being of dependents to consider and protractedness certainly negating hunkering down below the windowsill till the cavalry comes as a viable option is, to borrow a phrase, a whole 'nother ballgame from an obligatory deployment to some other country (or even county), in which case your families are tucked away someplace safe and secure and beyond reach of the Reaper.  This is the voice of experience; not a field manual or classroom lecture or FEMA exercise.

"LE and irregulars (I take it he means guard/reserve units) will only be effective for a short while (days, possibly weeks) if a catastrophe is significant enough to disrupt a national or regional infrastructure for any appreciable period.  When food, water, medical attention, and relief personnel stop coming, they will start going.  That's the way it is.  Some will be profoundly affected by concern for their own families (who could blame them?) and this will motivate them to desert immediately.  Others will force themselves to hope or believe that someone, somewhere, is doing the same for his as he is for yours and these will stand the watch for a while longer but eventually they, too, will leave.  This is one of the factors that has enabled the U.S. military to be so effective: lack of an immediate domestic threat.

"Most people dislike the idea of living under martial law with imposed curfews and restricted travel; when it's no longer just an idea, they dislike it even more.  Under such circumstances, they resent being policed by unfamiliar faces in uniform who are heavily armed and permitted to come and go at leisure when they themselves are not, and by familiar faces that have issued them traffic citations who seem to be collaborating.  This complicates matters for those attempting to maintain order.  When the resources for sustainment are depleted within the residence and none are forthcoming, (the citizenry) will be out and about and searching for more.  If you, as an official authority figure, impede them in this endeavor in any way, you have just compromised yourself and every other person in uniform.  Even if they pose no definite or seemingly potential threat and you are successful in persuading them to return from whence they came, they won't stay there.  They will talk to their friends and neighbours and, undoubtedly, some of them will have had similar experiences.  They will decide that you are an invader within the boundaries of their territory; that aid hasn't come yet or in quite some time so, certainly, they are isolated from the rest of the world, unreachable, maybe forgotten; that they must do whatever is called for to ensure their continuation and you are now an obstacle to such; that they know the terrain far better than-- and easily out-number-- you; and that you probably are hoarding food.  Plus, they will be armed . . . .

"Tragic as it was, 9/11 was an isolated incident.  So are mass demonstrations and protest rallies, college football riots, and most natural and man-made disasters.  While the effects may be long-lasting, the actual occurrences are localised and, typically, of short duration.  Armed authorities have the influence of possible legal repercussions as a deterrent during civil unrest, and emergency personnel providing aid overwhelmingly have the sympathy and support of the populace in the aftermath of whatever finger of God flicks the earth.  To date, this has been sufficient in the U.S., which has yet to experience a lengthy cataclysm or one that prevents massive assistance from being immediately rendered to everyone.

"In the long term, however, if the size of a population or its geographic isolation (or other factors) pose a considerable hardship to relief efforts, people will do whatever they can to get what they need and no badge or vested authority will stop them.  What's more, in a nation the size of the U.S., governmental resources would be spread perilously thin and the tactic of containment often used with city-wide disruptions will prove futile.

"In those communities where the rule of law is respected to whatever degree, it will be imperative that any existing (rather, remaining) authorities supplement their numbers by deputising suitable members of the indigenous population (the locals), thereby influencing their cooperation with-- and tolerance of-- that presence.  You can accept this reality or you can be removed.  Either way, armed defence groups (militias, if you prefer) are an inevitability.  Those who may be inclined to disagree have never lived under such circumstances and are, therefore, unqualified to debate the matter. Untill you've been there--with womenfolk, children, and the infirm in tow-- tough talk and nonchalant bravado are best kept to yourself and your opinions on this subject are irrelevent.

"It should also be noted that, during the L.A. riots, many LEOs simply stood around and did nothing as crimes against persons and property were committed in full view.  The wake of Hurricane Andrew saw numerous instances of looting by irregulars who had been deployed as an effort against such practices, right alongside the other opportunists.  And this wasn't even the end of civilisation . . . .

"For those of you who may be deployed in my neck of the woods should such ever occur, be advised: my crew will go where it pleases, when it pleases, how it pleases.  We are harder than you, stronger than you, smarter than you, and faster than you.  We have all been through much worse that you can imagine and in far worse places that you are likely to see.  Good luck trying to "detain and disarm" us (quote refers to previous .mil/LE types bloviating about how anyone with guns and gear will be detained for a good susswing out)."


Well thought-out, reality-based explanation, I think.  Curious what he'd have to say about the post-Katrina mess.
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freebird

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #251 on: June 20, 2006, 07:14:43 pm »

Well it seems that I have almost managed to kill off this thread with talk of blowing up houses and cars and apocalyptic civil war scenarios. 

These are all interesting subjects that deserve further discussion, but probably on their own thread.

I'd like to switch gears for a moment and bring the discussion back to the original topic, resistance to being indentified. 

The current dilemma that I am wrestling with is this;   I am refusing to carry Real ID because I do not want to be enumerated, and I refuse to have MY digital likeness (photograph), fingerprint(s), and other biometric info plugged into some goddamn database somewhere, when I have done not anything wrong (that is, damaged someone else's person or property).   I am also refusing to renew my current non-Real ID drivers license, because it still contains a digital photograph, fingerprint, and requires an SSN, which I have made the decision to stop using. 

The problem is that by refusing to carry a drivers license, I am now exposing myself to the risk of arrest, whereupon my digital likeness and other biometric information will probably be taken from me by force down at the police station anyways.  (I have never been arrested) Does anyone know if you get arrested and booked into jail for driving without a license in any of the 50 states?   Or do you just sign a ticket and off you go?   

Another major concern is keeping my DNA to myself, which many LE agencies are now pushing to have collected from anyone arrested for a crime, never mind whether you end up being convicted or not.  This should scare the shit out of everyone, IMHO.  Or are my fears about having DNA forcibly collected pointless to begin with?   It is possible that as human beings we shed so much DNA laden material that Law Enforcement could easily "get the goods" on us without too much effort as things stand right now?

This whole ID matrix is so depressing, is just seems that there is no way out save for leaving the country, or giving up driving and patronizing any drinking establishments completely.   Or continuing to do so and then living your life in fear that you will eventually be caught, arrested, and then forced into the biometric ID system against your will. 
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pilgrim

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #252 on: June 20, 2006, 08:02:26 pm »


Just do it! Why be afraid of a little jail time or death and injury? The spirit lives forever, bitch!


(DL free going on 4 years now)
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freebird

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #253 on: June 20, 2006, 08:43:59 pm »


Just do it! Why be afraid of a little jail time or death and injury? The spirit lives forever, bitch!

(DL free going on 4 years now)

Pilgrim, I appreciate the bravado, now tell us a little more about your experience

1)  Have you ever been pulled over or been involved in a traffic accident since going DL free?

2)  Have you even done any jail time in a hard-core big city lockup?  Candy-ass rural county jails do not count.

3)  Does this mean you are also driving without insurance? 
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Joel

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Re: ID Resist
« Reply #254 on: June 20, 2006, 08:57:05 pm »

Oooh!  Still full of piss and vinegar, I see!

Perhaps, before you cast aspersions on others, you could expound on your own experiences concerning these things?
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