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Author Topic: Free West Alliance  (Read 40508 times)

Claire

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« on: January 31, 2004, 05:29:19 pm »

I see in the "They'll get my extractor ..." thread Bug and Sunni discussing the FSP vs Boston T. Party's Wyoming project. As a porcupine, I hesitate to boost any of the FSP's competitors. But Boston's is just one of several.

Ben Irvin of the Free West Alliance just sent a copy of his group's logo. .

I love these folks, and they're ardent in saying that they're not trying to compete with the FSP, but merely give die-hard westerners a free state alternative. Ted N. has already enthusiastically promoted their Grand Western Conference II. It was a great event last year & if I could go again this year, I would. (They don't seem to be getting a lot of participation in their forums yet, though.)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2004, 05:41:59 pm by Claire »
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ZooT_aLLures

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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2004, 08:15:37 pm »

Claire,

Ya know, I really liked the rumors going around about BTP's project being similiar to, but more defensive than the FSP.
Clearly if people are going to attempt to change their area towards a more freedom oriented state, they better be ready to defend themselves from those who like things the way they are now, or will be in the future without any change......
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2004, 11:17:10 pm »

Zoot - what do you mean by "more defensive", could you point me to that thread?

Thank you.

'Bug
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Ted Nielsen

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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2004, 04:52:01 pm »

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:49:53 am by Ted Nielsen »
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Claire

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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2004, 05:21:59 pm »

Quote
Ya know, I really liked the rumors going around about BTP's project being similiar to, but more defensive than the FSP.
Clearly if people are going to attempt to change their area towards a more freedom oriented state, they better be ready to defend themselves from those who like things the way they are now, or will be in the future without any change......
'Course, there's also the problem that if you go in with a defensive attitude, you'll draw hostile attention to yourself both from "the authorities" and from ordinary people -- people you might well be able to win over without needing any defense at all.

I think the FSP's got the right attitude. The secessionist roots of the idea are very well known, as are the propensities of libertarians to run around armed. But the message that "we're coming in to make peaceful, positive political change" is a comforting one and helps gain acceptance.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick" and all that.

But like Bug, I'm also interested in what specifically you've heard about Boston's project being more defensive. I haven't heard that, but it wouldn't surprise me. Tell us more?

Claire
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Elias Alias

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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2004, 03:23:07 am »

Quote

'Course, there's also the problem that if you go in with a defensive attitude, you'll draw hostile attention to yourself both from "the authorities" and from ordinary people -- people you might well be able to win over without needing any defense at all.

 
While acknowledging that Boston's ideation is not suffering from any persecution-complex, but is all-the-while yet aware of the embedded infrastructures of socialist mind-wash which exist in contemporary thought-patterns within the public (which simply through legislative control of existing State governments has certain leverages which could be used against anything culturally akin to "freedom of individuals", if said State saw cause for alarm---thereby justifying in reality a subtle stance of defensiveness), I'll offer my opinion in harmony with your statement.

The reality of the mechanistic police state, its hierarchy, tiers, and the penetrations of its extensions, does, in and of itself, introduce a general wariness among wakeful people. We know it's there, and we know we're the targets as it depletes a world-full of targets by simply dominating global governance, economics, and global media productions of popular thought-insertions world-wide.

But that's "them". We're "us".

We know that defensiveness *always* attacks. We know that defensiveness itself, as a condition of human mentality, harks of an outsourcing latent fear. We also know that action which proceeds outward from the vortex of fear is always, and can only be, futile. (Even in instances in which some temporal appearance of "victory" occur---in the long run is where our children share in the results of our short-term thinking, yes?) A nation who's governance relies upon pre-emptive war as a legitimate trigger for military aggression usually has a population which has been conditioned in fear. That is hardly a secret these days.

By the same token, a freedom movement such as FSP and the recent pulsations from the bosom of the great unconquered West has the choice of how one might formulate the establishing of one's goals in freedom. Either as a defensive venture, or as an extension of the vision of liberty.

We already know we're right. Liberty is popular among people, especially when it's gone. At the current rate of fedgov's ominous intrusiveness into everyone's personal lives, the ongoing "wake-up" which is growing in America advances its numbers in almost quantum-like rates. There is no valid reason for liberty's voices to be defensive. There is every valid reason for liberty's voices to smile forward, extending in the one hand the blessings of peace and in the other the truth of Nature in Life, which needs no defense.

I think that back in the 1960s we used to call it: "positive thinking".

I'm sure that by now you know that Boston T. Party will be at the GWCII. (JJ Johnson of the Sierra Times and Iloilo Jones of FIJA will also be there.) I'm looking forward to a eye-to-eye conversation over coffee with Mr. Party.  My impression of him thus far is that he is more "Serious" than he is "Defensive". One thing I'm noticing at present is that in the upcoming GWCII there shall participate three western States who may be willing to discuss secession with British Columbia and Alberta. Boston's Wyoming and my  Montana and the GRR's (Ghost of Ruby Ridge's) Idaho are in it. I see no reason to be defensive. Simply conceiving "liberty" while living under the most powerful governance device in the world's history IS defense. Therefore, let our actions be of a positive nature, filled with the focused glory of our inalienable birthrights as human beings, owing no apology to anyone, offering no threat to anyone, and trusting in the truth instead of succumbing to illusions spawned of fear.

The announcement for the GWCII is up, btw. I saw your gracious commentary to the Steering Committee about why you cannot attend, but I often hope at times, personally, that certain circumstances might take unforeseen twists and allow you to get free to come and join us there. It could be another round of history in the making. By whatever grinning cast of the Muse's dice, you're one of America's most inspirational and commanding liberty fighters. And I think you're right: defensiveness is not our best-chosen style. Candidness, honesty, forthrightness, bravery, peaceful happiness, lovingness, creativity, honor, responsibility, personal sovereignty, and all such attributes of our higher souls should be the guiding lights of our decisions and the rays by which we see to take our actions. Against such, there is no defense, nor abiding threat.

Salute!
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2004, 04:43:12 pm »

Quote
  My impression of him thus far is that he is more "Serious" than he is "Defensive".

I usually do not like to throw incendiaries into conversations, but I have to in this case:

If Mr. Party was "serious" about freedom, he would NOT have opted out of New Hampshire when he joined the Free State Project (as its 5,000th member, with lots of fanfare and special dispensation). He would not be excoriating the Porcupines by calling their decision to go to New Hampshire foolish. He would not be attempting to ride on the FSP's coattails by starting a competing project, either. Though he will not admit - even to himself, apparently - that the GWC IS in competition with the FSP.

These are MY opinions and not necessarily those of Porcupines in general.

'Bug
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Ted Nielsen

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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2004, 08:11:34 pm »

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:56:30 am by Ted Nielsen »
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2004, 01:19:39 am »

Ted - there are two brand-new "organizations" (for lack of a better term) that sprouted up after the FSP vote. The Great West Alliance, and the other one concentrating on ID/WY/MT. I get a little confused about which is which, since they are both in very preliminary form.

Boston's participation in your forum, as far as I am concerned, is endorsement by Mr. Party for the GWA. I believe that Jason Sorens was also invited to your conference. I hope he declines.

The stated goal of the tri-state people is the same as FSP. As far as I can tell, the stated aim of your conference is substantially the same. Let's call a spade a spade.

For all of that. I have made a "fast food" analogy elsewhere on these forums regarding the FSP and the two new groups. I assume that they're all here to stay, and we can merely hope that they will create more "liberty noise" than the FSP can by itself.

My main irritation at this point is the constant denial of reality that these groups ARE competing against the FSP for libertarians. By making Clintonesque style "we're not actively recruiting" statements are at variance with reality.

Just admit that you are doing so, and we can move on. I imagine I will have to quell my irritation at some point, because nobody seems willing to admit the obvious. I can understand Boston's statement that he doesn't want to wait some arbitrary time before participating in something else. But I still think his actions are impetuous.

Emulating the FSP is premature at this time - the FSP hasn't created a free state, yet. It is still recruiting members and setting up the NH "liaisons" if you will.

I'm not attempting to muzzle anybody or prevent another freedom movement from sprouting up. But to prevaricate in any manner is a bad sign, if you ask me.

'Bug
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ladylearning

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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2004, 04:35:22 am »

Quote
I hope he declines.

The stated goal of the tri-state people is the same as FSP. As far as I can tell, the stated aim of your conference is substantially the same. Let's call a spade a spade.

Why would you hope he declines?  Is NH the only place in this nation that freedom minded individuals should be allowed to congregate?  
What's up with that?
Shouldn't we all celebrate the fact that all states should be "free" and endeavor to make that a reality?
As far as calling a spade a spade.  I think that's been thoroughly pointed out by Ted.  Different name, different logo... same vision.
There is no competion here, there is however an abiding desire to live free wherever we choose.  We should all stop the bickering and join forces to create a free country.

LL  
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Scarmiglione'

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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2004, 06:59:08 am »

Quote

My main irritation at this point is the constant denial of reality that these groups ARE competing against the FSP for libertarians. By making Clintonesque style "we're not actively recruiting" statements are at variance with reality.

Just admit that you are doing so, and we can move on
Competition is a good thing.  Of course they are "competing", each is attempting to provide a service or fulfill a demand that the FSP is not.  Seems like good old market freedom to me.  Don't understand what the hubub is about.
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2004, 03:31:56 pm »

My wife warned me that I should not open my trap.

I agree that competition is good. I merely want the principles to acknowledge that is what they're doing. Is that too much to ask? Did I say to STOP RIGHT THERE!!? No.

I want there to be freedom everywhere. I think everybody should be free.

I think that Jason Sorens going to the GWC II would be like the chairman of McDonalds addressing a Burger King convention. Just doesn't sit right. At least for me, and I only speak for me.

Just acknowledge the facts. Scarmig did. Even LL did, in effect.

Again, my only worry is that if there are two or more competing entities that NONE will succeed because of dilution of membership. The whole idea of FSP is to concentrate enough libertarians in one place to actually get something done, politically.

Having two or more places makes it that much harder to get that block. It will take longer, and may not make its threshold. THAT is the only concern I have.

'Bug
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RagnarDanneskjold

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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2004, 05:10:24 pm »

My $.02 (-3.58 after taxes have been extorted).  I am not a porcupine, so take it for what it's worth. When commiting to the FSP, folks had the option to opt out of certain states (if my understanding is correct).  BTP opted out of NH prior to it being selected. Those who are working to coordinate "free people" in Western states are not diluting the efforts of the FSP, since few, if any, of those who would commit to working together in the west would have been moving to NH anyway. The only thing being accomplished by all the "infighting" is to divert the focus from congregating free people together to petty bickering about who is pissing in whose lemonade. A couple years ago, our family was considering joining Wayne Hicks in his endeavor to create an intentional community, Harmony, in Arkansas.  For the life of me, I can't remember now why we decided against it.

Where am I going with all this? I don't know. I guess I would just like to see the attitude that all efforts toward a more free society benefit each other.
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Danl

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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2004, 06:28:25 pm »

Hi all,

A long time luker, just coming out of my shell.  I will not post often, because of time constraints.

My member number was around 400 or so with FSP.  I rode the thing to its first climax (choice of words, Hmmm).  From the beginning I opted out of all states but Wyo, Mont, Idaho.  There was no competition for my body/vote.  I am not going East.  I respect the choice of those who are glass eaters and the ones who are willing to crowd into that little bitty state, but it is not for me.  

I like the West and made a substantial financial effort to get licensed in my profession in Wyoming and Montana.  I don't think Idaho is quite as viable based on high population numbers.  I could possibly be persuaded to make the Idaho effort if I thought there was half a chance.

I see no competition here.  There are folks who opted out but still want a chance at the dream of a free state.  My kids might see it.  Maybe I will, but I have gotta try to help bring it to pass.  

I wish the FSP NH the best.  I think they can succeed.  I wish the western effort the best, I think it can succeed also.  I think it can succeed in Wyo with 4,000 voters.....

Will I be at the GWC2?  You bet I will.  I was at GWC1, it was great.  If you want a chance at liberty and want to look your kids in the eye and be able tell them you did your best to bring liberty in their lifetime, then join one of these movements and let's concentrate our efforts in a few choice warm and receptive areas and go for it.  At least come and talk about it and get a feel for the enthusiasm that comes when you meet people that are serious about liberty.

C Ya, Dan  :D
« Last Edit: February 24, 2004, 06:30:38 pm by Danl »
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http://www.freecolorado.com/2004/02/bostonreply.html

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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2004, 07:36:24 pm »

Quote
I respect the choice of those who are glass eaters and the ones who are willing to crowd into that little bitty state, but it is not for me.


What the heck is a "glass eater"?

Also, just because YOU can't think outside an East/West divide (as aparently JJ Johnson cannot, either), doesn't mean there aren't a large number of people who can or are indifferent.

I live in the West myself. I have lived in the East. I didn't like things about both. I prefer the West. Again, freedom is not about topography or geography.

'Bug
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