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suijurisfreeman

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Free West Alliance
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2004, 08:27:53 pm »

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I respect the choice of those who are glass eaters and the ones who are willing to crowd into that little bitty state, but it is not for me.

What the heck is a "glass eater"?

Also, just because YOU can't think outside an East/West divide (as aparently JJ Johnson cannot, either), doesn't mean there aren't a large number of people who can or are indifferent.

I live in the West myself. I have lived in the East. I didn't like things about both. I prefer the West. Again, freedom is not about topography or geography.

'Bug
>Again, freedom is not about topography or geography.<

In my opinion, freedom is a gift that you give yourself, it's not something that can be found in New Hampshire, Montana, Idaho or Wyoming.  I didn't go looking for my "freedom" in Kentucky, I gave myself the gift of freedom in 1993, I took my freedom to Kentucky when I moved there in November of 1999!  I bought property in Kentucky because I've liked that area since the early 1970's.
So why is it "necessary" to move anywhere to find "your freedom"?
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Danl

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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2004, 08:51:17 pm »

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respect the choice of those who are glass eaters

In some of the fora those people who signed up for any state regardless of where it might be, who were willing to move anywhere there was a chance of making a true Free State were referred to as "Glass Eater".  IOW they would be willing to eat glass for a chance at a trully Free State.

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I didn't go looking for my "freedom" in Kentucky, I gave myself the gift of freedom in 1993, I took my freedom to Kentucky when I moved there in November of 1999!

suijurisfreeman  -- I can appreciate your self declaration of freedom and I can appreciate the cost.  I have tremendous admiration for you and the many I know who have made the same declaration of freedom.  I even appreciate the several who have gone to jail while trying to practice their freedom.  I have donated to their defenses I have cried bitter tears with there loved ones as they practice their freedom behind bars.  I trully respect their integrity and their true grit.  I have made a choice to seek a longer term freedom that can be practiced by my kiddoes.  At present I feel like that direction is thru the free state concept. Nevertheless it will take all of us pushing on every front to push the weasels back.

Regards, Dan'l

 
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"No oppression was ever overthrown by a bunch of readers  and philosophers. Liberty is usually dirty and bloody work, and if we don't have the option of providing our masters with a real  fight, then they will perennially call our wussy  bluff." Quote from Boston T. Party's Boston's Reply to Critics of "Molon Labe"
http://www.freecolorado.com/2004/02/bostonreply.html

suijurisfreeman

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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2004, 09:16:20 pm »

Dan'l,
I didn't just make a declaration of freedom, I've actually lived my freedom each and everyday since June 4, 1993!  I did spend a total of 51 days in the Hillsdale County jail back in 1994-5 (only because I refused to post bond), but I have not been arrested for exercising my rights since September of 1995.

I don't "try to practice my freedom", I've actually lived my freedom each and everyday since June 4, 1993!

My daughter cried bitter tears when I refused to be bonded out of the Hillsdale County jail.  She actually drove 90 miles one way from Elkhart, Indiana bringing a bailbondsman with her to get me out of jail.  I didn't post bond, I defended myself (no "defense funds" were necessary) and when I was found guilty of not getting a building permit and ordered to pay a $200 fine, given 6 months probation and ordered to get into compliance with the building code, I refused to pay the $200 fine, refused to sign the probation order and refused to get into compliance.

What exactly is a "longer term of freedom"?  I've lived my freedom for over 10 years now and intend to until the day I die - that's what I would consider "long term".  As I've already posted, I can't give my children or grandchildren freedom.  If and when they want freedom, they will need to make the same choice that I did in 1993.  Perhaps you believe that freedom for you and your children will be found in the Free State Project, I hope that you find the "freedom" that you seek.  I found my freedom when I gave myself permission to live my life as a free Human Being.  Each of us must follow our own path, may your choosen path lead you and yours to the freedom that you seek.
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Delos

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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2004, 10:03:14 pm »

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Dan'l,
I didn't just make a declaration of freedom, I've actually lived my freedom each and everyday since June 4, 1993!  I did spend a total of 51 days in the Hillsdale County jail back in 1994-5 (only because I refused to post bond), but I have not been arrested for exercising my rights since September of 1995.

I don't "try to practice my freedom", I've actually lived my freedom each and everyday since June 4, 1993!

My daughter cried bitter tears when I refused to be bonded out of the Hillsdale County jail.  She actually drove 90 miles one way from Elkhart, Indiana bringing a bailbondsman with her to get me out of jail.  I didn't post bond, I defended myself (no "defense funds" were necessary) and when I was found guilty of not getting a building permit and ordered to pay a $200 fine, given 6 months probation and ordered to get into compliance with the building code, I refused to pay the $200 fine, refused to sign the probation order and refused to get into compliance.

What exactly is a "longer term of freedom"?  I've lived my freedom for over 10 years now and intend to until the day I die - that's what I would consider "long term".  As I've already posted, I can't give my children or grandchildren freedom.  If and when they want freedom, they will need to make the same choice that I did in 1993.  Perhaps you believe that freedom for you and your children will be found in the Free State Project, I hope that you find the "freedom" that you seek.  I found my freedom when I gave myself permission to live my life as a free Human Being.  Each of us must follow our own path, may your choosen path lead you and yours to the freedom that you seek.




Dammit . . . he is the Messiah!

 :P
 
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suijurisfreeman

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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2004, 10:09:20 pm »

Delos,
If you're that damned determined to get me crucified atleast make sure you bring a stepladder and nail puller to get me down!  :lol:  
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2004, 10:41:11 pm »

Sujuris - while I respect what you have done, I would submit that it is what I referred to as "nothing left to lose" in another thread. Or maybe this thread, I'm getting confused.

I want the ability to accumulate wealth that I have earned. The ability to drive a late model car, if I want. I want a nice house, with air conditioning and central heat and two or three stories, etc. The primary obstacle in my way is the ridiculous taxation that robs me of 50%+ of my wealth.

I want to be sure that the JBT's won't come crashing in on me someday because some zoning inspector didn't sign off on my children's tree house.

There's nothing wrong with wanting any of these things - it's called enjoying one's life to the fullest in the manner in which he wants to, without being killed or jailed by the government.

There's nothing morally inferior with wanting to accumulate and keep one's wealth, either.

Having these assets also makes it less likely that I'll be thrust into the arms of the nanny state if I get sick later. Of course my alternative would be to die. I don't like either of those alternatives. I want the ability to pay my own way, AND that includes paying my medical bills when I'm older.

What YOU call freedom may be accurate for you. It is NOT for me.

What's wrong with that?

'Bug
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Elias Alias

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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2004, 03:40:45 am »

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(snip)

I don't "try to practice my freedom", I've actually lived my freedom each and everyday since June 4, 1993!

(snip)

  I found my freedom when I gave myself permission to live my life as a free Human Being.  Each of us must follow our own path, may your choosen path lead you and yours to the freedom that you seek.
sj, I do not think that anyone anywhere has anything to add to what you are, what you've done/accomplished, and to what you've just said here to the worrybug.  I salute you, and am grateful that you are there doing whatever you do each day. Btw, I spent most of my life south of the lakes, down in Memphis, but I've been all over the bluegrass state and find it to be a very beautiful part of America. And I'll never forget one summer night's dancing with a chick I met in Franklin, Kentucky under a full moon on a wooded country road. We danced in the car's headlights, out on the road, never thinking about all the owls we might disturb. But I won't bore you with stories about my adventures in Kentucky; just wanted to let you know that imo Kentucky would be a great place for a dude like you. Of course, if you ever changed your mind, or have it changed by martial-law's ominous steel hand, Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho constitute a pretty big piece of real estate, and there are, already, birds of a feather out here in numbers which swell the flight to sovereignty and freedom.

Keep hammering away at people who are in the early stages of their self-discovery, who are new to the path of personal freedom, and who think freedom is a definable, quantifiable product of focused effort and intent, something which they will achieve "in the future", when they've done all their tasks which they feel will furnish that freedom. It amuses me to hear them question sagely vision with their own newly-evolving perspectives. Maybe Mr. Worrybug will get it if you just shout it at him a dozen more times: "I found my freedom when I gave myself permission to live my life as a free Human Being."

And a note-in-passing for Mr. Worrybug, as an aside:  Dude, there is nothing *wrong* with anything you value, as stated previously by you. If you want material security, that is fine. Some of us don't, but that doesn't mean we don't have anything else left to lose. Speaking for myself personally, I've had the wealth, the money, the facilitation, the business licenses, the tax accounts, the credit, portfolio, banking, comforts and conveniences which inspire most Americans. If that is what you want, I say go for it. All I want these days is to write down my reflections and live modestly and eat regularly. When my propensity for smoking cigarettes kills me, I'll have died on my terms, by my choices and decisions regarding how to live. That is very central to my personal notions about being free. I will not be in some damn hospital begging or paying some doctor to avert my natural fate, to extend my life, lol! For those of you who believe in the healing arts as practiced by modern AMA-sanctioned standards, more power to you, but I'll pass. You are right; there is nothing wrong with accumulation of the fruits of your labor; in fact, in most cases I think that is a very *good* thing. But you don't have to make an issue over it. You be free, yourself, and then you'll see that you don't have to be with a "freedom group", that you don't have to move or live anywhere, that in fact you can be yourself wherever you are. *That* is your freedom in your own lifetime. Anything else is just something somebody is trying to sell you. A plan. Sure, it's cool to play with the FSP plan, to participate; hell, it's the best game in town at present, imo. I sure do enjoy telling people about it, supporting it with my mentality. And the FSP will doubtess have soul-mate types of people who share your particular sorts of values and y'all may end up with the envy of the nation, a community which literally reclaimed governance by pooling votes. I'd say that would be a good thing. But you're still going to have to claim your freedom, instead of "working toward it", for "working toward it" is an ego-defense system, a mind-set which says, "I am not free, but I cannot find my inner freedom, so I must look outward, elsewhere, for my freedom." You are correct in thinking that you must live your freedom according to your views. But remember: your views come from within. < wicked grin >

If you want to move amid neighbors who promise to share your principles, I see nothing wrong with that.....aside from the fact that once again someone who is not "you" seeks to place a "definition" upon the infinity which dwells in the spiritually-exact meaning of the word "freedom" as it exists inside your soul. You'll make it, Dude; just, in Joni Mitchell's words, try not to "lay your religion on your friends", eh? That way, you won't appear to be a worry bug. :)

Elias
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2004, 04:19:13 am »

What, me worry?

Only quibble I'll relate, is that the freedom you espouse is fine, I suppose. It allows you a certain degree of serenity in the midst of a police state.

But it ignores the reality of the police state. I want my children to have it better than I did. The reason this country was formed was because there IS a difference between freedom and servility.

Also,regarding modern medicine. I won't dispute the problems with Western medicine in the long term treatments and life-extension-at-all-costs has some systemic and holistic problems.

HOWEVER, the emergency care of acute problems - such as automobile accident and myocardial infarctions, etc. I think we benefit greatly from Western medicine, and there's no problem with extending an efficacious life under these circumstances. But if I can't pay for it - because I can't accumulate assets because I'm flying "under the radar", that sucks.

'Bug
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Elias Alias

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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2004, 05:22:35 am »

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Only quibble I'll relate, is that the freedom you espouse is fine, I suppose. It allows you a certain degree of serenity in the midst of a police state.

 
Try not to worry about what *my* freedom allows *me*, okay?  I did not use myself as an example of what *you* should be, but was merely trying to show you a different perspective. Try to think of this in terms of you yourself.

I do not live in a delusion. I know full well that there is a police state going on out there, and that today it is backed by the U.S. Military, and that some petrified brain molecule of a mutated perversion's skull from some dark and dismal past has reincarnated itself in the visage of one George W. Bush. And if you want to simply be "right", that's okay with me. But if you want to reach out for a new concept which might, just *might*, enhance your own grasp on your own freedom, on the knowledge and awareness of it as it exists already inside your soul, you are welcome to ask me to explain for you just how Fedov is two steps ahead of your desire to accumulate enough personal wealth to cover the costs of whatever medical services you may require in the future. Hint: once Fedgov drops the iron net of totalitarian martial law on this nation, you and I together, and all our good neighbors and friends, are gonna be under a rule which, for the purpose of better serving our needs, shall systemize, organize, structure, direct, fund, and administer to us, including YOU, the dispersion of medical care and treatment.  When this comes down on us, which could be before the November elections, but hopefully will be long long off into the future, the only assets left will all be "under the radar".

But really, bug, nobody except of course Fedgov is trying to deprive you of your wealth. What my line of view is working for is the disempowerment of the mechanism called Fedgov, so you *can* keep your wealth. See? And the best way to fight Fedgov is to fight Fedgov. :)

Elias  
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suijurisfreeman

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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2004, 05:30:32 am »

H.M.WoggleBug, T.E.
>What's wrong with that?<  If it "works" for you, absolutley nothing!  I spent most of my adult life making "good money", I owned and operated my own business for 27 years, so I've played that the game.  BUT in my opinion the following quote just about says it all for me:

Cree Indian prophecy - Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

I've definitely found my freedom (I know this for a fact because I gave myself permission to live my life as a free Human Being), may you find the "freedom" that you seek.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2004, 05:39:54 am by suijurisfreeman »
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ladylearning

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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2004, 08:59:56 am »

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Cree Indian prophecy - Only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

Good qoute.  
It brings to mind the message in Somerset Maugham's book "The Razor's Edge", where Larry Darrell discovered high on a Tibetan mountaintop that wisdom and enlightenment are not found within the cover of a book.  All we need already resides within us.  

LL
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2004, 01:17:18 pm »

I'd like to see the genesis of this statement. I sincerely doubt it's very old, certainly not before late 19th century. I'd be surprised if it's more than 20 years old.

Call me cynical, but this just sounds like socialist tripe.

'Bug
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ZooT_aLLures

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« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2004, 02:30:02 pm »

Wogglebug,

Here's an older and easilly creditable statement that was uttered in times such as those we have now..

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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animated contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen -Samuel Adams


Yup.....even back then there were folks that "wanted" to be free but wanted even more to retain their wealth, and as such had some really tough decisions to make. And there were those that used powerful statements in an attempt to get those decisions made

I myself don't believe that political activism will help, and I don't believe that any "free state" project will help either, except at a local and maybe state level.

What I do see though(and I hope I'm right) is groups of people moving to defendable positions and preparing to defend those positions in the upcoming war for our country.

Our friends have stated on numerous occasions and very clearly the government is not reason or logic, but instead only organized force.
Given this, do we or can we honestly expect government to give up it's usurped powers without using what it's so effectively used for all these generations?
Do you or can you expect goverment to just "go away" without bloodshed?
 
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

suijurisfreeman

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« Reply #28 on: February 29, 2004, 05:55:06 pm »

Quote
I'd like to see the genesis of this statement. I sincerely doubt it's very old, certainly not before late 19th century. I'd be surprised if it's more than 20 years old.

Call me cynical, but this just sounds like socialist tripe.

'Bug
Bug,
I got the "statement" from one of Michael Reynold's Earthship books.  Whether it's 20 years old or 100 years old, I couldn't say.  However to me the words ring true, it would appear to me that all too many people will pursue "money/wealth" without giving one shit about the natural world that we are a part of.  I have absolutely no interest in "socialist tripe", but then again neither do I believe that I have the "right" to take more from the planet than is really necessary.
I just bought the April 1983 issue of National Geographic at the St. Vincent dePaul Society thrift shop for 5 cents, the article "The fascinating world of TRASH" really got my attention.  It points out that during the 17 day garbage strike in New York City back in December of 1981 150,000 tonsof garbage piled up before the strike was settled just before Christmas.  How long can we afford to live in a throw away society such as ours?  Ever been to a "dump" to see all the shit that people throw away?  How many trash cans do you set out each week?  At my daughter's place they set out 3-4 30 gallon trash cans per week.  When I'm at my property in Kentucky I might generate one small Wal-Mart type blue bag per week.  In that National Geographic article they said that something like 40% of landfill trach is packaging materials!  Why all this waste?  I personally think that we as a species are insane, we've gone mad with our consumption of this planet's resources.  But that's just my opinion.
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #29 on: February 29, 2004, 06:49:12 pm »

We have two different subjects here....

Zoot - I imagine you weren't replying to my request for verification of the "Cree" statement.

I am very familiar with Samuel Adams' attribution. In several places, I have merely brought up the fact that quite a few people say that you can live "free" by basically being poor. I object to that supposition, and present arguments to support my objection.

I have a few possessions, and I'm willing to sacrifice them if it will yield a free society for my family. However, I don't see that as being a) efficacious and B) dictated by logic. I don't see that a sacrifice of that nature on my part will yield a greater amount of freedom.

sujuris - regarding trash - yep, it's amazing how much we produce. My family produces 1.5 cans a week (30 gallon cans). Sometimes I have to do a burn, so it's probably closer to 2 cans per week. Recycling in Oregon is mostly a joke, and we don't bother any more except for bottles and cans with deposits.

We don't bother, because all of the recylables go from the blue bins into the regular garbage after the children leave the dump. We witnessed this ourselves, and queried the operator about it.

That said, trash has its uses. 40% of the land in San Francisco is built up on piles of trash. Not great during earthquakes, but otherwise pretty useful. Same in many other places. In Louisiana, large portions of New Orleans and suburbs would be under water if not for trash of the last 200 years. Some prefer swamp, I suppose, but Louisiana has plenty already.

In places, incinerators burn trash and have even generated electricity. I believe, however, that they don't pay for themselves. In Japan, they build golf courses on trash dumps. I hear the smell is awful, but the Japanese don't mind because they don't have any other options.

When it becomes cheaper to recycle metal from appliances and cars and such into its metal, that's what will happen. See another thread about air conditioners being dumped on roads because of a stupid federal regulation that made it too expensive to dump them in land fills.

On my own property, the previous owner had a trash pile for 40 years. It was formerly a swamp, and was filled in before the idiotic wetlands legislation was in force. It's not a nice place to play baseball and football.

I'm not Joe Sanford, but trash isn't universally bad.

'Bug
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