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Elias Alias

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Free West Alliance
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2004, 12:03:24 pm »

Quote

  All we need already resides within us.  

 
Well said, LL.

Those who know, intuit, and understand that wisdom are also those who know *why* overpopulation coupled with irresponsible, trash-producing lifestyles and the mindset called "herd mentality", the common people unthinking, are forever doomed to the cultural bug-topia, the time-worshipping tail-chasing avoidance of personal responsibility.

As SJ says, we as a species have gone insane, are mad with the consumption of this earth's resources. Do you remember that danged customer we once had who sought to lay her "consumerism" on our store? "I'm a Consumer!" she would say, and at other times she would say she was *THE CONSUMER!*, which in her statist mentality implied that she could do no wrong, that her every whim was to be acted upon by our store in just the way her precious imagination required, at whatever unpaid cost of course. Jeez. This worry-bug would say, as Ms Consumer: "there is nothing *wrong* with consuming", just as he thinks there is nothing *wrong* with piling up the trash on the planet's surface or accumulating more wealth than his forebearers deemed necessary.  Hell! There is nothing *wrong* with anything, and certainly nothing *wrong* with everything Americans do in their diefied cities, of course.....yet I wonder *why*, with nobody doing anything *wrong*, this world is going to hell in a handbasket? Of course it could not have anything to do with the great American lifestyle, with the me-first whim of covert greed, with false expectations furnished by every icon from Dr. Spock to Viagra, with "win a free vacation" to "The God of Govlish Giveth Forth Thy Great Tax Cut". I think the post-industrial revolution, coupled with mass programming over the tube, the radio, and the daily headlines, has successfully unplugged the bug-people and their culture, their society, their ever-damned cities of infinite duplicates thereof, from reality. So be it. I'll agree with you and suijurisfreedom and Zoot. And hopefully, as he seems innocuous-enough, perhaps some day the worry-bug will gain that perspective from which he would understand why he would voluntarily wish to cease judging your and their comments from within his own un-attached mental circus. There ARE too many people, and as Melville put it, they are a mob of useless duplicates, and they are involved in living the false-god-worshipping lifestyle of the American Consumer, complete with their traid of sacraments: Denial; Sprawl; and Trash. It cracks me up to see the worry-bug  transfer his subliminal guilt into a fabrication which causes him to believe that in the Free State he'll finally find freedom. LOL, LL! Ah, heck, I feel pretty good today, so I'll hope that maybe the dude will wake up some day, so I'll take back all the stones I've thrown at him, teehee!

But it does concern me that in seeking 20,000 liberty-lovers, the FSP may unknowingly be attracting the deluded wannabes who've failed to find their own inner sovereignty and inner freedom already, which is what I think should be the qualification displayed before anyone should be accepted into the FSP. People like bug here, in defending their indefensible failure to achieve the spiritual vision of sovereignty, and who remain dependent upon social mores which have evolved since the telephone, printing press, internal combustion engine, air-transportation, computer, State-given-license, and electricity, seem to think that they can have their cake and eat it too, never wondering about what the next generation shall face in the wake of their cakewalk through a plastic, false lifestyle which was fostered upon them by Feducation's brain-wash when they were helpless children. Look how wildly askew his whole notion regarding "poverty vs wealth" stands in relation to what has been said on this thread. He is very defensive about his need to accumulate wealth, to the point he is willing to deny what today's version of "wealth" is doing to this nation. He goes straight to his shield, saying that he doesn't understand why poverty is a sign of freedom. Well, he's missing the point. There can be freedom in conjunction with wealth, and there can be freedom in the absence of wealth. Bug would have me think that if I choose to trim down my level of material goods I am being the fool. Personally, as a man who has had the wealth and the sanction of the State, I'm quite happy living very modestly. But speaking of wealth, holy sheeit!, I gotta go to work now! Salutes to you and Zoot and Suijurisfreedom, and all other responsible sovereigns. Don't let the bugsters wear you down!

:)

Elias

 
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2004, 03:35:39 pm »

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People like bug here, in defending their indefensible failure to achieve the spiritual vision of sovereignty,

"Spiritual" - you're right, I don't want any spiritual visions - I want concrete reality. THIS WORLD freedom. Your kind of "freedom" is the kind that a prisoner in Leavenworth can get.

I don't want my cake and eat it, too. However, I do NOT want to buy the cake and have the government eat it out from under me. If the government can capriciously blow me away at anytime, or steal my bank money, or whatever, how exactly is that "free"? I am working to get true freedom in THIS world, for now and my children.

Your diatribe against modern technology reveals your own antipathy toward modern life. Perhaps you're more interested in living in 18th Century Canada or something? When life expectancy was 36 years old, and sunrise to sunset toil was all you had time for? No thanks. I enjoy the modern conveniences that give me more time to argue with luddites with keyboards.

'Bug
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Silver

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« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2004, 04:39:07 pm »

nevermind
« Last Edit: May 19, 2005, 03:22:50 pm by Silver »
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2004, 05:19:21 pm »

Silver - thanks for the support. I wish I was half as cogent in my reply as your were.

'Bug
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jack

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« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2004, 12:36:37 am »

Jeeezus... Elias,

Didn't your grandma warn you to stay away from Malthus/Marks/Erlich...? This stuff is pure poison, man ;)  
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Elias Alias

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« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2004, 11:12:23 am »

Quote
Quote
overpopulation coupled with irresponsible, trash-producing lifestyles and the mindset called "herd mentality",
....
There ARE too many people, and as Melville put it, they are a mob of useless duplicates, and they are involved in living the false-god-worshipping lifestyle of the American Consumer, complete with their traid of sacraments: Denial; Sprawl; and Trash.
...
he thinks there is nothing *wrong* with piling up the trash on the planet's surface or accumulating more wealth than his forebearers deemed necessary. 
....
the FSP may unknowingly be attracting the deluded wannabes who've failed to find their own inner sovereignty and inner freedom already, which is what I think should be the qualification displayed before anyone should be accepted into the FSP.
...
never wondering about what the next generation shall face in the wake of their cakewalk through a plastic, false lifestyle
Whew!

Well, I guess I should be grateful that you're not judgmental !

There are "too many people," huh?  Shall we hazard a guess as to who will be the one to determine which ones are "useless duplicates"?  What does one do with "useless duplicate" people?

I'll stand next to 'bug when they line up the ones guilty of "accumulating more wealth than his forebearers deemed necessary."  If not guilty by the act, I'll certainly be guilty of conspiracy to break that law!

If the FSP were foolish enough to adopt a test, whether administered by the likes of Mr. Alias or anyone else, to determine which ones had "failed to find their own inner sovereignty and inner freedom already"  we'd all know that freedom was truly dead, or that FSP had caught some of those nasty facist cooties wafting north from the DC swamp.

The degree of hatred and bigotry in this rant is quite remarkable, particularly considering the politeness I've generally encountered in the forum.

Clearly, free people everywhere need always watch their back as well as their front.  To find this kind of poison posing as talk about freedom is sobering indeed.

I guess I'll do the best I can to be free in my "cakewalk through a plastic, false, lifestyle."

Peace,

Silver
(Please note: I reserve the right to edit this post after it is placed into the thread. Thanks.)

Howdy, Silver,
Thank you for reminding me to keep an eye on my feet. Before I address your points I would like to tell you that I've read a number of your posts on a few threads here at the boards, and everything I've read to date by you has been wonderfully clear and enjoyable reading. I have personally found that your postings here are refreshing, individualized in a seamless manner, accurate, and indicative of an intelligence I readily respect. I gratefully appreciate your additions to the consciousness, or contents thereof, to these boards, and have not found to this date any reason within my own mind to challenge anything you've written. I just wanted to say that to you before I look into your notes on my discourse with the worry-bug.

Yes, I've been testy with the worry-bug. Actually, I've been testing that guy, in hopes of inspiring him to test his perceptions. But please allow me to note with you that I like something about the worry-bug; that I sense behind his zeal for pursuing his vision of freedom an *intent* which is certainly honorable, if somewhat diluted by his intrinsic fascination for the material "reality" as he calls it. I bear no ill will whatsoever toward the worry-bug. I have been challenging him, however, to question with very difficult questions the very tenets upon which his view of freedom relies. That has not been done with malice or hatred or resentment, and I'm sorry if I came across that way to you and other readers here. I actually like the worry-bug, and am glad to see his voice operating at these boards too. One thing  which I appreciate about him is his resiliency, which denotes a depth of character. I like well-formed character, and our adamant little worry-bug seems, to me, to have a good store of that stuff. Yet character itself can be infused with misperceptions, errors, and/or downright illusionment. I'm hopeful that the worry-bug will gain from my proddings and promptings the motive for requiring of himself the trait of "thinking outside the box".

Next, I'd like to state again very clearly that I support the FSP, that I think the FSP is a wonderful and worthwhile project, that I am grateful to Jason Sorens and his officers---sans, as I've just learned, the work of Mary Lou Seymore---for creating the FSP and devoting so much of their lives toward the fulfillment of the FSP's goals. Also, I do think the FSP can be very successful. I recently obtained a copy of Alex Jones' film "Matrix of Evil", which contains Jones' fifteen-minute address to the Mayor and City Council of Austin, Texas on the subject of why the City of Austin, Texas, should get on record by passing a resolution against the USA PATRIOT ACT of 2001. (After Alex Jones' tirade, which itself is very moving, even gripping, the City Council of Austin, Texas did pass a resolution banning the USA PATRIOT ACT of 2001 in Austin, Texas, joining thereby over four hundred other cities and townships and counties which have done likewise.) Therefore, I, in watching that fifteen minute diatribe by Jones as he stood before Austin's City Council with a full crowd of citizens present, am very encouraged in seeing that a group of inspired citizens can still, in this country, have an effect upon the mechanism of encroaching national governance.

When I rant on message boards about personal liberty, sovereignty, and freedom, I would hope that any reader who chances upon my rants understands that America is laboring already under a militarized police state which itself is but the domestic arm of a campaign for, in Brzezinski's words, "American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives"; in other words, the establishment of the Global American Empire.

My focus, and that of The Mental Militia, is firstly, primarily, at the Global level and upon those players who move the powers on that level. You see, whatever the globalists of the New World Order have up their sleeves bears most-serious and immediate implications for the lives of all Americans and their respective local communities.  Doodoo rolls downhill, if you please. What is downhill from global empire is the demise of national sovereignty for every nation-state, domestic region, township, city and rural sector,  which gets suckered, forced, coerced, levered, tempted, or conquered into the global empire. Should the PNAC boys and the highly-criminal Cheney-Bush Junta get their way, which so far they're getting, we'll soon see the demise of all foreign nation-states' sovereignty, as well as the sovereignty of the USofA. This goal is stated, declared openly, by the CFR, the Trilateral, the Bilderberger group, the PNAC, the IMF/World Bank, and a host of other pillars of Empirism presently under the control of a very few "houses" (families). Those international banking families print the money, own the banks, and own the national debts of all those nation-states who's names adorn the membership rosters of the United Nations. Their ownership of such intangibles means but one thing for Americans---slavery. For readers who do not understand that clearly yet, I'll give it here in one of their champion's words:

~

"Although America's international preeminence unavoidably evokes similarities to earlier emperial systems,  the differences are more essential. They go beyond the question of territorial scope. American global power is exercised through a global system of distinctively American design that mirrors the domestic American experience. Central to that domestic experience is the pluralistic character of both the American society and its political system.

"How the United States both manipulates and accommodates the principal geostrategic players on the Eurasian chessboard and how it manages Eurasia's key geopolitical pivots will be critical to the longevity and stability of America's global primacy. In Europe, the key players will continue to be France and Germany, and America's central goal should be to consolidate and expand the existing democratic bridgehead on Eurasia's western periphery. (TMM note: that would be, of course, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan) In Eurasia's Far East, China is likely to be increasingly central, and America will not have a political foothold on the Asian mainland unless an American-Chinese geostrategic consensus is successfully nurtured.  In the center of Eurasia, the space between an enlarging Europe and a regionally rising China will remain a geopolitical black hole at least until Russia resolves its inner struggle over its post-imperial self-definition, while the region to the south of Russia---the Eurasian Balkans---threatens to become a cauldron of ethnic conflict and great-power rivalry.
 
"In that context, for some time to come---for more than a generation---America's status as the world's premier power is unlikely to be contested by any single challenger. No nation-state is likely to match America in the four key dimensions of power (military, economic, technological, and cultural) that cumulatively produce decisive global political clout. Short of a deliberate or unintentional American abdication, the only real alternative to American  global leadership in the foreseeable future is international anarchy. In that respect, it is correct to assert that America has become, as President Clinton put it, the world's "indispensable nation".
 
"It is important to stress here the fact of that indispensability and the actuality of the potential for global anarchy. The disruptive consequences of population explosion, poverty-driven migration, radicalizing urbanization, ethnic and religious hostilities, and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction would become unmanageable if the existing and underlying nation-state based framework of even rudimentary geopolitical stability were itself to fragment. Without sustained and directed American involvement, before long the forces of global disorder could come to dominate the world scene. And the possibility of such fragmentation is inherent in the geopolitical tensions not only of today's Eurasia but of the world more generally.
 
"The resulting risks to global stability are likely to further increase by the prospect of a more general degradation of the human condition. Particularly in the poorer countries of the world, the demographic explosion and the simultaneous urbanization of these populations are rapidly generating a congestion not only of the disadvantaged but especially  of the hundreds of millions of un-employed and increasingly restless young, whose level of frustration is growing at an exponential rate. Modern communications intensify their rupture with traditional authority, while making them increasingly conscious---and resentful---of global inequality and thus more susceptible to extremist mobilization. On the one hand, the rising phenomenon of global migrations, already reaching into the tens of millions, may act as a temporary safety valve, but on the other hand, it is also likely to serve as a vehicle for the transcontinental conveyance of ethnic and social conflicts.
 
"The global stewardship that America has inherited is hence likely to be buffeted by turbulence, tension, and at least sporadic violence. The new and complex international order, shaped by American hegemony and within which "the threat of war is off the table", is likely to be restricted to those parts of the world where American power has been reinforced by democratic sociopolitical systems and by elaborate external multilateral---but also American-dominated--- frameworks.
 
"An American geostrategy for Eurasia will thus be competing with the forces of turbulence.

"Moreover, as America becomes an increasingly multicultural society, it may find it more difficult to fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues , except in the circumstances of a truly massive and widely-perceived direct external threat."



Taken from pages 24; 194 and 195; 211 in "The Grand Chessboard" by Zbigniew Brzezinski, former National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter, co-founder of the Trilateral Commission for David Rockefeller, trustee of the Council on Foreign Relations, imminent buddy of Henry Kissinger, among other dubious "honors". Copyright 1997; Published by Basic Books, a member of the Perseus Books Group, New York, ISBN: (paperback) 0-465-02726-1.

Please note that Brzezinski wrote this in 1997, published it in 1998. At that time, the CIA went into Uzbekistan and other Eurasian states in force. The British support divisions were put on alert and began to form for their deployment into the region four years later in October, 2001. U.S. battle fleets were brought online off the coast of Pakistan. And al Qaeda with bin Laden at the helm was set on course by the CIA for the events of 911. THAT is some of what Bush knows and refuses to reveal to the families of 911 victims as they sue and posture for access to PDBs afforded Bush by U.S. Intelligence prior to 911. Ossama bin Laden is a CIA creation; his al Qaeda was funded, transported, trained, paid, and given marching orders by CIA under Brzezinski's, G.H.W. Bush's, Bill Clinton's, and many others' watches. 911 was the globalists' answer to the question of how to "fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues".

~

So, Silver, we have on the one hand a quest for global Empire which is published, announced, and is being actively facilitated by the Cheney-Bush Junta. That arm of the Empire is engaged in establishing footholds on Eurasia's western borders, which include Afghanistan and Iraq.  And on the other hand we have Ashcroft's (and the entire Federal mechanism's) assault on personal liberty and freedom here in the United States of America. In addition to the USA PATRIOT ACT of 2001, we also have the Homeland Security Act of 2002 and the coming Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003 (written last year but not passed into law as of this writing) and the two VICTORY Acts. They *HAVE* to control us in order to "fashion a consensus on foreign policy issues". That means: American Empire, its primacy, and its geostrategic imperatives. They know already that general anarchy is the only response which might come from the very peoples which this grand plan shall enslave into the Corporate Dynasty's operation, and they are willing to waste literally millions of peoples world-wide in order to establish this Empire. They are willing to take America into the status of being a cashless society, forbidding "money" both theirs and ours. They are willing to mandate the national ID card. They are willing to control who may "buy and sell". They are willing to implant all of us by force with under-the-skin microchips. They are willing to use technology, bio/chem attacks, the threat of terror, confiscation of property, reallocation of residential grids. They are willing to re-educate in FEMA camps those dissenting voices such as are found on boards like this one. They are willing to do whatever it taks to entrench their Empire as the final reality, even if they have to hit us with yet another "terrorist" attack such as the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995 or 911, both examples being now known to have been at least in part *facilitated* by agencies of the Federal government. Expendable individuals also include nice folks who dare not rock the boat of economic largesse.

The momentum of American hegemony, the velocity of the establishment of Empire, means that we're now, presently, running out of minutes to avert it. Severe actions are in order. Radical solutions are required. It is my thinking that Bush has to be impeached and removed along with his entire Cabinet. The Federal Reserve System, Inc., has to be disbanded and the task of printing the nation's money supply has to be brought back into Federal offices at the U.S. Treasury. (note: President Kennedy signed an Executive Order to do just that mere months before he was shot.....which is NOT to say that that was the only reason Kennedy was assassinated by CIA, of course, but it is an interesting point.) We are going to have to eliminate the clandestine sections of CIA and return CIA to its original mission, which is ONLY the collection and analysis of intelligence. We are going to have to rescind all secret treaties involving troop-transfers between nations. We are going to have to do a lot of very serious things, as a people working together, which will seriously overhaul the way this present imposter government administers itself upon the people. We may have to give up some creature comforts, some luxuries, some financial padding, maybe even some of our lives, in order to fight this monster. THAT is what I've been preparing Mr. Worry-bug to conceive. At present, he seems to be looking through a condition which we used to call "tunnel vision", at his beloved "reality", which, btw, would belie the fact of causation from external zones, outside the physical, but that's a point I'll direct to the worry-bug in another post. When this mechanism establishes the police state openly, above-ground, for all to see, feel and know, the FSP and any individual who once cared about financial security, the little guy living week-by-week, paycheck-to-paycheck, as well as the upper-middle class and even the quasi-wealthy, all of us are going to have everything confiscated in the name of national security. Income taxes? Think in terms of more than eighty-percent of gross income, and the "right" to make an income at all will first be approved or withheld by the government, if this mechanism is not stopped in its tracks right now.

How dire is it? Well, the Commanding General of the Central Command, the brassy dude who coordinated the 'liberation' of Iraq last year for the Empire, General Franks himself, puts it this way:

"It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world - it may be in the United States of America - that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event. Which in fact, then begins to unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps, very, very important."

You see, Silver, these bastards *know* what they're doing, how they will accomplish their goals, and the target of their industrious energies is the individual American "citizen" who might object. THAT present and demonstrated attitude by those who ride at the helm of our ship of state is undebatable. Can you agree with me on that much?

Okay. So much for setting the stage on which I'd like to address your observations in exchange. Thanks for reading so much just to get to this....

Silver: Well, I guess I should be grateful that you're not judgmental !
 
Elias: Actually, I'm quite judgmental, but my judgements are always passive by nature, kept deliberately to the confines of exchanged words, debates, arguments, explorations of mentality. I have not shot anyone I "judged" since Viet Nam. :)
 
Silver: There are "too many people," huh?  Shall we hazard a guess as to who will be the one to determine which ones are "useless duplicates"?  What does one do with "useless duplicate" people?
 
Elias: You would hardly fathom the voluminous nature of the stack of pages your query here elicits in my old head just now. I could write some books, at least, on the over-population situation and how over-population catalyzes the plight of today's libertarian individual. But the notion is not original with me, as someone else on this thread noted, so I can't take credit for its discovery. I can, and shall, however, ask you to note the source of my screed regarding "useless duplicates". I took that phrase from traditional American literature, namely from the book "Moby Dick" by Herman Melville, which he dedicated to Nathaniel Hawthorne. (Published by Signet, New American Library, New York; no ISBN in the edition which I own.) Here is the exact quote, from back in 1851. Chapter 107. page 441:
 
"Seat thyself sultanically among the moons of Saturn, and take high abstracted man alone; and he seems a wonder, a grandeur, and a woe. But from the same point, take mankind in mass, and for the most part, they seem a mob of unnecessary duplicates, both contemporary and hereditary."
 
Now that I've shown that the notion of "unnecessary duplicates" derives a century and a half prior to my using the phrase, and in fact is embedded in a novel which is often considered by scholars and academicians and readers world-wide to be among the top five American works of literature ever produced, perhaps you'll forgive me for drawing from that book in my assault upon the worry-bug's complacency and generalized habit of denial. But now, let's look at the content of your reply to my use of that phrase.  
 
First, you seem to announce with alarm that I somehow implied or stated that somebody should "be the one to determine which ones are "useless duplicates". Silver, that ain't my cup of tea. I did not state that someone, or anyone, should or ought to make such a decision. I understand how the mind can make that leap from what I did say to what my comment *may* imply, but I assure you that I am Voluntaryistic and libertarian in my view of life, and do NOT initiate aggression or force on anyone or upon anyone's property. I do know exactly what you're getting at by implying that since I said the masses are comprised of a "mob of useless (unnecessary) duplicates", someone, therefore, would be needed to ajudge the select exceptions and dispose of the rest. I however am not an authoritarian in any way. I own no one, seek to own no one, and I steadfastly refuse to "order" anyone around, whether it be what someone "thinks" or what someone "does", either in the metaphysical realms or in the worry-bug's corporeal consensus natural Newtonian "reality". But you may wish to reflect with extreme gravity upon this one thing: if there were only you and myself upon this continent, with no others present, there would be absolutely no need for government, would there? Of course not. It is only when the available lands are overpopulated that some perception for a need for governance arrives. As Lao Tzu put it twenty-five hundred years ago, "When mankind lost sight of the way to live, came codes of law and order".
 
However, despite my knowledge of the just reasons to never interfere with the life or property of any other mortal man on earth, I suggest that it is not toward "me" that your, and the bug's,  disapproval might best be directed. I am but a messenger, and well do I know that the message I bring is somewhat less than pleasant. I have removed myself, and my support, from the mechanism which dreamed up the message. That is all. You see, the elite of the New World Order HAVE reached Melville's conclusion regarding the nature and intrinsic value of the masses, and they HAVE devised a plan for reduction of over four billion souls from the world's gross population. I often wonder, daily, whether Americans are capable of seeing what the encroaching police state shall furnish into their presently-enjoyable lives. Slavery to a corporatized State is going to be much more severe than people seem to grasp at present. All the while Mr. Greenspan and Company assure us that all is hunky-dory, the ravages of fiat-money-printing, debt-based economic pillars, and abused "credit" are bound to come home to roost whenever the "rob Peter to pay Paul" syndrome exhausts its momentum and Americans are left standing agape at the collapse of the fraudulently-derived "economy". Prior to such a startling view being permitted to finally dawn upon public consciousness, the globalizing socialist bankers who are robbing America and every other productive nation shall drop that iron net of military-police totalitarian martial-law rule over our every movement, over our very lives.
 
We're talking assignment of careers, placement of all residences, confiscation of all personal property, suspension of habeas corpus, military tribunals and executions, severe punishments for diversions from the prescribed lifestyle as admonished by the State, a prison-based economy, internal passports, tons more "permits and licenses" for everything, state-sponsored interference between parents and children, mandatory service to government (see the article on my website which lists the links for the Senate and House versions of bills already existing in Congress mandating re-enactment of the Selective Service --the *draft* -- for ALL citizens between the ages of 18 and 26, both female and male, for military service AND for other duties in the name of Homeland Security---these bills are already written, and have been introduced into Congress, and are currently being reviewed by the Pentagon), government control over all communications, government control over all transportation, government control over all health-care services, government control over all food distribution and consumption, government control over all Feducation,  government control over all monetary transactions, government control over all 'family planning', and on and on the list runs. These observations are more than the wiles of my wondering imagination. The infrastructure for every one of these aspects of a police state already exists in an amazing array of Executive Orders, secretly-passed "stealth legislations" (thanks, Claire, for that term), and Presidential Decision Directives, among other Fedgov vehicles for pressing authority and control over the 'useless duplicates'. I'm on your side, and on the worry-bug's side. I am not seeking political power, am not seeking to control anyone, am not seeking to "judge" who "should" or "should not" be allowed to live their natural lives on this earth. That is not my nature, nor would such an approach be acceptable to me under any circumstances. I value freedom of the individual, period. But I'm not in a state of denial about the simple logistics of over-population, and I'm damned sure that EVERY American needs to confront this causal source of the acceleration of both governmental power and proxemic implications. Were the masses not financing governmental power, there would be no need for a Free State Project in the first place, now would there? Since there IS a perceived *need* for a FSP, there is obviously already in place the perception, shared by more than five thousand freedom-loving Americans, of the *need* for the FSP. What is the FSP trying to avoid? Isn't it trying to avoid being controlled by government? Isn't it trying to avoid becoming slaves to a "system" put forth by those financial interests which pull the strings on which our governmental offices dance? But to move along here....
 
 
Silver: I'll stand next to 'bug when they line up the ones guilty of "accumulating more wealth than his forebearers deemed necessary."  If not guilty by the act, I'll certainly be guilty of conspiracy to break that law!
 
Elias: And I'll be right there in that trench with both of ye. I'm already there, in fact. But unlike the worry-bug, I have willingly sacrificed the goodies of the system, having closed a damn retail jewelry store which I co-owned for eight years prior to discovering what ails this nation and moving to the mountains of Montana for to fight the beast. I fight to protect the bug's *right* to property and to the accumulation of the fruits of his moral and righteous labor, mentality, and will. I did, however, realize a few years ago that I would need necessarily to close that store and give up my comfortable life there in order to fight against the murder and robbery which this government's leaders presently intend for all of us. Call me a fool. But as I have hinted elsewhere, I've had three businesses, one of which was a sub-chapter corporation; I've paid employer's taxes on my employees' paychecks; I've had the BMW, the frequent rounds of golf with millionaires, the nice home, the money, all the bennies this false system provides to those who are willing to accept their freedom on a leash. When I relinquished all that, I did so willingly, happily, and in full knowledge of the hardships which would inevitably accompany my decision. I did NOT, however, ask anyone else to walk in these shoes with me, preferring to alot my friendships and company among those who already had seen what I see in and of their own accord. But please do not ask me to sit down and shut up about what I see happening to America. Hopefully, my nudging of the worry-bug will some day afford him, if only in reflection upon previous discussions and concepts, the inner vision which would fortify his vision of freedom and enable him thereby to take positive and meaningful action on liberty's behalf. If the cat can come to see what I'm trying to get across to him, he'll become a powerful force in the liberty movement. For you, personally, I see nothing to offer you. You strike me as being a fully-awakened individual, and a fluently graceful one at that. That is why I've not picked on you anywhere at these boards. Truly, I've not disagreed with anything of yours that I've chanced to read here. So please know that I'll be breaking that law right alongside you and the bug, and in fact, already am. Y'all apparently just haven't noticed that the law is already evolving into the horrid reality I'm trying to describe in this post. But rest assured, the face of this beast isn't far from revealing itself in an absolutely undebatable format.
 
 
Silver: If the FSP were foolish enough to adopt a test, whether administered by the likes of Mr. Alias or anyone else, to determine which ones had "failed to find their own inner sovereignty and inner freedom already"  we'd all know that freedom was truly dead, or that FSP had caught some of those nasty facist cooties wafting north from the DC swamp.
 
Elias: If you prefer not to call me "Elias", I like "General Elias" better than I like "Mr.". Thanks. :)
 
Now, to touch on this note by yourself briefly, I repeat that I am not in the business of judging individuals. If my language here implies that I do intend to judge people, it is only because I am not representing my mentality properly with my choices of words.
 
 
 
Silver: The degree of hatred and bigotry in this rant is quite remarkable, particularly considering the politeness I've generally encountered in the forum.  
 
Elias: I would like to suggest that actually, if one were to go back and re-read my words to the worry-bug, one would not find hatred or bigotry among my comments and statements. There is a starkness, a lean-ness, an assertiveness, and a taunting challenge to the bug to re-evaluate his premises in some areas of his portrayed cosmogony. The only thing I "hate" is governance by force, i.e., slavery. What you're construing to be "hatred and bigotry" is merely my rudeness and crudeness, and I do think that I can finally explain *why* I have used that tone in approaching Mr. Worry-bug. Please understand that I have a purpose in my selection of the "tone" of my discourse with him. But to fully define my motive for dealing with the worry-bug in that tone would over-burden this already too-long screed, so I'll await a specific request, at which time I'll treat that matter on another posting sans all the foregoing of this one. I do not hate people. I am not a bigot, except perhaps when it comes to Fedgov, for which I have ample research and historic prompts (I.e., corruption and conspiracy against free people) which give rise to my bigoted resentment of Fedgov.
 
Silver: Clearly, free people everywhere need always watch their back as well as their front.  To find this kind of poison posing as talk about freedom is sobering indeed.
 
Elias: I submit that you will never find a more loyal co-fighter for liberty than myself, and that I stand right alongside you and the bug in our mutually-seen fight for liberty. I'm on your side, Dude, and I'll not knife you in the back, physically OR psychologically. When I chance to see incoming fire, however, I'll be quick to alert anyone else sharing a bunker with me. I know how war is done, and I believe that we're presently in a war which has yet to be declared; there is a reason I speak to the worry-bug the way I do. I'll bet you one drink at a Montana Saloon that the worry-bug shall some day thank me for rattling his cage. Time shall show all.....
 
Silver: I guess I'll do the best I can to be free in my "cakewalk through a plastic, false, lifestyle."
 
Elias: Well, not to fan dying embers too much, but I wonder if you'll also admit that your present lifestyle is totally dependant upon fossil fuel, electricity, and technology? If there IS a dependency by the American public on such things, so that in the absence of such things the infrastructure of survival and health vanishes, at such a time my words to bug will take on a new shine. It is exactly the addiction to government, fossil fuels, debt-based economic platforms, and mass-media mind control which is foremost on the government's collective mindset. As is being evidenced in Iraq and Afghanistan, this power-group will do ANYTHING to keep the American SUVs rolling, to keep the plastic coming, to keep the myriad consumables, video games, sports paraphenalia, drugs, media output, insurance scams, portfolios, social and cultural mores and morays, laws and regulations, taxes, subtle and not-so-subtle coercions, coming and remaining in place so that people never have to worry about the precarious little limb on which their precious industrial revolution has placed them. All I am saying is that for thousands of years, mankind made do with much less, and while there were some features of that more bleak existence which I'm as glad as are you to see vanish into history, I judge that the price we're paying for creature comforts, convenience, and constitutional concessions is greater than the services rendered back to us by that system which is controlled and regulated by Fedgov. For a few examples consider that suicide and divorce rates, the family-unit's integrity, and general stress levels have produced within society an unacceptable series of symptoms which suggest, shout, that something is not quite right in Denmark. An addict is an addict. At present, America is addicted to fossil fuels and an industrial base which itself is dependant upon Americans' drive for "more", for consumption. Consumption is a known killer, ya think? :)
 
But it's not just me. Here's this, written by a really fine friend, a brave and eloquent lady of liberty:
 
"To reach Hardyville, you must grind your way up to Lonelyheart Pass, then slither on ice into the Great Brown Valley. If you know where to look, you'll find the ghost town of Lost Fortune crouched at the foot of the grade. But this time of year, it's best not to stop. From Lost Fortune, count 4,387,004 sagebrush bushes and you'll find yourself at the one-and-only stoplight in the middle of nowhere -- Hardyville.
 
(snip snip snip)
 
"As the snow drives down from Lonelyheart Pass, shutting us off even more tightly from the outside, I know Dora and I are thinking of all the advantages we lack.  
 
No stock exchanges, sushi bars, Furbys, frequent fliers or FBI agents. No bureaus, block grants or Friends of Bill Clinton. No major leagues, no Junior League, no malls, boutiques, department stores or mega-corps. No Red Robin, Red Lobster or Whoppers. No rush hour with choppers reporting traffic-on-the-nines. No Versace, Gucci, Ralph Lauren or Calvin Klein. No personal trainers, credit jewelers, street gangs, liposuckers, homeowners associations, post-modern architecture, deconstructivist intellectuals, PC committees or Lexus dealers. No arbitragers, executive producers, multinational millionaires, multi-level marketers or media stars. Ronald McDonald, Bill Gates, Bill Bennett, Ralph Nader, Martha Stewart, Dr. Ruth and Dr. Laura are all somewhere, far away, beyond the forbidding hills. We are on our own here.  
 
It's a bleak life. But somehow we will survive.  
 
~  
 
Originally published at WorldNet Daily:  
 
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=14079
 
 
It is perhaps disconcerting for us all to face the fact that today's society is totally dependent upon an infrastructure which is so fragile that it requires the establishing of a global Empire in order to keep social foundations functioning. Whatever their lies regarding establishing "Democracy" in every nation-state this Empire intends to dominate, the truth is that more than seventy percent of the world's known remaining energy resources are to be found in the 'Stans of Eurasia, and to keep their positions of power, the bankers who own our government and their go-to boys on Capitol Hill will never cease with their military enforcement of ownership of Eurasian energy. I know my message is harsh, but as Catherine Austin Fitts has so sweetly observed, "If we can't face it, God can't fix it."
 
Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I came across with such vehemence. Now that you have read into my perspective somewhat, I trust you'll see more accurately that I was not trying to defile the polite environment of these boards, and that I was not trying to decimate or destroy the worry-bug.  
 
Salute,
Elias
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Elias Alias

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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2004, 12:56:15 pm »

Quote
Quote
People like bug here, in defending their indefensible failure to achieve the spiritual vision of sovereignty,

"Spiritual" - you're right, I don't want any spiritual visions - I want concrete reality. THIS WORLD freedom. Your kind of "freedom" is the kind that a prisoner in Leavenworth can get.

 
Well Jeez, Bug,
What if it turns out that "concrete reality" is in fact merely the extensions of spiritual reality? Have you ever wondered about that? Are you aware of what quantum-physics has learned about invisible consciousness? Did you know that every "concrete" form in this Universe is actually a conscious entity? Quarks, lumen, everything! Have you thought about what that might mean to a person who is seeking "concrete reality" without first admitting the role in which the spiritual planes play, the role of creation? There are some questions which I'd like to ask you. I'll be brief here, but if you hit on this post I'll certainly be glad to go into deeper detail on this issue. Consider please:

~

" The charming landscape which I saw this morning, is indubitably made up of some twenty or thirty farms. Miller owns this field, Locke that, and Manning the woodland beyond. But none of them owns the landscape. There is a property in the horizon which no man has but he whose eye can integrate all the parts, that is, the poet. This is the best part of these men's farms, yet to this their warranty-deeds give no title."

Ralph Waldo Emerson, in the essay entitled "Nature".

~

Now, let us consider what might be the difference between those things symbolized by these three different words:
"Spirit"; "Soul"; and "Psyche"

Let's start with the occupant of the lower planes of invisible reality, the mind, or, as science calls it, "Psyche". Bug, can you and I agree that psyche, mind itself, is metaphysical? I mean, that "mind" has no "concrete reality" in terms of having height, width, and breadth, or in terms of possessing some form, some mass which might occupy a given space, or in terms of having no gravity, no weight, no color, no visible properties of beingness? Can the mind even be approached by either of the five physical senses? Can we agree that the mind is not physical?

In truth, in concrete reality, we cannot even prove that the mind exists, can we? So when it comes to "concepts", such as freedom, we're relying upon an insensible and unprovable activity to even associate some sort of personal "image" from our memory banks, (where we store all our "knowledge and experience, and imagery pertaining thereto, as memory), to the word "freedom", are we not?

That I cannot prove that you have a mind, not directly, not concretely as you would prefer things to be, does that mean that you possess no mind? I do not think so. I'm gonna hold, tentatively and only upon your approval of my intent here, that you actually *do* have a mind, even though we can't prove it in concrete reality.

So how would that mind of yours relate to something called the "Soul"? That is a good question to ask oneself, I say. What are the differences which denote mind and soul? If the two words referred to the same thing, of course they would not be both necessary, agreed? So if the two words imply two different meta-realities, then there shall be certain differences which adhere to their respective definitions. Mind is one thing, soul is another thing. But to someone who thinks of spirituality as some sort of daydream, as unimportant in one's quest for personal freedom, there is little probability within that person's mind which could allow for an understanding of the subtle planes upon which the vibrations of spirituality operate.

Since I've been very rude to and rough on you so far in our exchanges, which I now notice may have been excessive, since it has given rise to much angst and ire from other readers/posters here, I'm going to apologize to you for my abruptness. Hopefully, you will already have read my notes to Silver above, and perhaps already have anticipated my coming around to more cordial formats in which to conduct our exchanges. I'll get to an explanation for my psychological militancy at your expense soon enough---there *was* a purpose in my choosing that tone in which to confront some of your more entrenched memes, which I was inspired to reveal to you yourself through my brashness. Meanwhile, as you think on such things as now are falling your way from my keypad, I would like to also offer you this one interesting quotation from two people, combined into one passage:

~

A long time ago, Elias was reading in "Basic Writings" by Dr. Carl G. Jung. He noticed a passage inferring that the conscious sectors of psyche make use of imagianic symbols as components in the compiling of mental data. Fearlessly, and at risk of being presumptuous, Elias took upon himself the grandiose vanity (all possible apologies profusely invoked!) to merge for a momentary point his own and Dr. Jung's ideology. Together, the two of them produced this tidbit:


"If the material with which we think comprises itself of language and verbal concepts,

are these then not the usages employed by an 'acting force' which

displays the 'discerning ability'

to choose the sequentiating words, and by so doing,

does not this acting force imply it's own invisible existence?"

~

I wrote that some years ago, and I've not often found just cause to trot it out, but this thread may be a good reason to have done so now on your behalf.

One of my questions for you is this: what, in that passage immediately above this line, is implying its own invisible existence? Is it the body? Is it something "concrete"? Let this question settle into your mind, if you will.

And again I'll ask you:  What is the difference between Spirit, Soul, and Psyche? What 'acting force', which power, animates the fields of mentality?

Lemme know?

Elias

 
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Elias Alias

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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2004, 01:12:00 pm »

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Jeeezus... Elias,

Didn't your grandma warn you to stay away from Malthus/Marks/Erlich...? This stuff is pure poison, man ;)
Jack,
I've immediately googled-up Malthus, and found a lengthy essay on overpopulation, which I've bookmarked for later reading. Prior to your noting that name for me, I've not known anything about Malthus. I'm fairly illiterate in many areas, I must confess, and Malthus came as a complete surprise to me. But since I've not read any of his stuff yet, I do not have any way to know what you were trying to say to me, and would ask you if you would be so kind as to elaborate just a bit.

As for Marks and Erlich, I've not tried even to google them, as I'm guessing that I'll need first-names to go with those last names in order to complete a search.

For what it's worth, I have been called a "Social Darwinist" before.I'm not really too sure about just what that might mean, although I do have some vague abstract of an intuition on that subject.

I am a very quirky person. One of my quirks is that, now that I'm in my old age, I do not think I'll ever enter a hospital or doctor's office. Figure that this old body, which has served me well for so long, was born on earth to die on earth, and that when my body's natural fate, which obviously includes death, comes time to deliver-up my soul to finer fields, by whatever health-malady or act of government, I'll just take that as a matter of nature's course for myself.

But heck, Mon! I don't have many answers, and find that the more I am willing to learn, the more I realize I've yet to learn! Ack! So anything you can share with me would be appreciated.

Elias
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kbarrett

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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2004, 02:49:53 pm »

Malthus, and the other two individuals, assume that population will eventually exceed resources, and crash violently.

All of the folks mentioned assumed that new resource creation by innovation was not important, and that humans are incapable of controlling their birth rate. Malthus can be forgiven, considering how long ago he made his theories, but the other two don't have any excuses ...

 
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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2004, 03:38:53 pm »

Quote
But unlike the worry-bug, I have willingly sacrificed the goodies of the system, having closed a damn retail jewelry store which I co-owned for eight years prior to discovering what ails this nation and moving to the mountains of Montana for to fight the beast.


Hard to get in a word edgewise here - sure you and jtk aren't the same person?

You may be in a "compound" in Montana, but your defense is defuse and last-resort. The FSP is focussed and trying to avoid the last-resort. A large group of people is harder to ignore, and harder to stomp flat then a Ruby Ridge or Waco.

...You ding Silver for not spelling your name properly, yet you yourself blatantly mispell my own name in a derogatory fashion.

...I don't respect most of the "conclusions" quantuum mechanics has come up with since the '30s. Be careful, I know a *lot* about the subject, and the subjective interpretations placed precariously atop curious observations. "Scientists" who "find God" because they feel the need to ascribe unprovable causal relationships to phenomena they do not understand are contemptible, and damage the name of scientists past and present. Shrödinger's feline not withstanding.

...In keeping with the last statement, the whole idea of a separate and superior "spiritual reality" is unprovable and irrelevant. The only reality I am concerned about is the one we all share here and now. The one reality that cannot be explained away, and the one everybody is afraid to cease to exist.

...The only reason Mr. Emerson liked the landscape that nobody earned was because Mr. Locke & company modified it to their own likings. I wonder if Mr. Emerson (a socialist, by the way) would have appreciated a mosquito attack from an unfilled swamp as much. Somehow, I doubt it.

...I am glad you find solace in religion. It is RELIGION that allows the miscreants in THIS world to subjucate, kill, torture, and pillage the productive peoples of the world by telling those poor bastards that justice will occur AFTER THEY'RE DEAD. I find the whole concept contemptible.

'nuff said.

"Worrybug"
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jack

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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2004, 05:14:02 pm »

Quote
I've immediately googled-up Malthus, and found a lengthy essay on overpopulation, which I've bookmarked for later reading. Prior to your noting that name for me, I've not known anything about Malthus. I'm fairly illiterate in many areas, I must confess, and Malthus came as a complete surprise to me. But since I've not read any of his stuff yet, I do not have any way to know what you were trying to say to me, and would ask you if you would be so kind as to elaborate just a bit.
Malthus was one of the first "overpopulation doomsday" prophets. He observed that the population grows exponentialy and assumed the food production can only grow lineary, what prompted him to predict wide spread starvation in a very short time. Well, it never happened, did it. It's easy to spot what his error was - neither population growth is/has to be exponential nor the food production growth has to be linear.

Despite complete predictive failure of Malthus' theory there're still people today who make similar errors - and get widely publicized. Paul Erlich was one of them:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will...liams022499.asp

Quote
For what it's worth, I have been called a "Social Darwinist" before.I'm not really too sure about just what that might mean, although I do have some vague abstract of an intuition on that subject.

:) That seems to be the favorite insult among some lefties. It relates to term coined by Herbert Spencer - here's the link that can explain a bit (and defends Spencer)

 http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/long3.html

The way I look at it: if commies call you "Social Darwinist" you must be doing something right... :)
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suijurisfreeman

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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2004, 05:56:51 pm »

jack,
In my opinion Herbert Spencer ranks right up there with Lysander Spooner, they both rock!  I've pasted out hundreds of copies of his essay The Right to Ignore the State.  Even made that part of my signature line.
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« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2004, 08:31:04 pm »

Quote
...In keeping with the last statement, the whole idea of a separate and superior "spiritual reality" is unprovable and irrelevant. The only reality I am concerned about is the one we all share here and now. The one reality that cannot be explained away, and the one everybody is afraid to cease to exist.

...The only reason Mr. Emerson liked the landscape that nobody earned was because Mr. Locke & company modified it to their own likings. I wonder if Mr. Emerson (a socialist, by the way) would have appreciated a mosquito attack from an unfilled swamp as much. Somehow, I doubt it.

...I am glad you find solace in religion. It is RELIGION that allows the miscreants in THIS world to subjucate, kill, torture, and pillage the productive peoples of the world by telling those poor bastards that justice will occur AFTER THEY'RE DEAD. I find the whole concept contemptible.

'nuff said.

"Worrybug"
Rut Ro! Anybody see elias coming?  :o
I won't comment on any of your points, I think you and I have agreed to disagree in some areas... which is cool with me.
I am curious tho about your comment, re: your knowledge of quantum mechanics.
Would you share from whence that knowledge comes? I'm also curious about your exclusion of In Search of Shrodinger's Cat from your dislike of "scientists who find God".  And what's your impression of The Dancing WuLi Masters?  

LL  
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2004, 11:09:37 pm »

LL - I've been studying subatomic physics for about 10 years now on my own. I have several text books, but mostly I read PHd theses online at various universities that post them - such as Stanford and MIT.

Quantuum mechanics was hijacked in '30s, and the overwhelming opinion of the scientists that "won" the debate was basically "cause and effect cease to operate at the subatomic level".

One metaphysical [sic] question they could not answer was how, then, can cause and effect then operate on top of a layer that does not - by their definition? There is no epistemological or metaphysical foundation to support such an absurd notion. They invariably [sic] fall back on "well, we can't explain it". Kind of like they can't explain magnetism, either.

The Schrödinger Cat comment was a throwaway comment to show a ) that I knew something about what I was talking about, and b ) to denote that just because you can't observe something, doesn't mean that cause and effect don't operate. The fact that the tools and math we have now are incapable of predicting precisely what is going to happen when, does not mean you throw out 200 years of observations and embrace a Hindu god or something.

There's an underlying inferiority complex, or perhaps a lack of epistemological training in the very top ranks of scientists. The fact is, that since the very late 19th century, almost all research at this level is government sponsored, and that taints the structure of the experimentation, and the results.

Wu Li Masters is a wonderful example of good marketing via great book titles. "The Population Bomb" is another example.

'Bug
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Elias Alias

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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2004, 03:01:46 am »

Okay, lets see.... where were we.... oh yeah; there are several things going on here, several replies needing to be shown.  
 
Jack, and Kbarrett, thank you for explaining about Malthus and company. And Jack, thank you for that link on Lew Rockwell regarding Spencer. I'm like suijurisfreeman; I like Spooner and I'm sure I'm gonna enjoy looking into Spencer. I appreciate it. And regarding your comment about commies calling me a Social Darwinist, well, how did you know it was socialists who have tossed that handle at me? lol! Yes, it seems to be the fate of commies everywhere to deny certain traits of unchecked raw Nature. As for me, I thrive on it.
 
 ~
 
Now, to the Worry-bug's woes and wiles.
 
Worry-bug, you almost could worry me.
 
Dude, I asked you some tailored questions and you failed to find an interest in answering a single one of them, as you made your reply. Worse, you made up some stuff, attributed it to me, and then commented on stuff I did not say. We'll get to those facets after we cut the crown.  
 
Having fun on message boards is a cool thing to do, imo. I like cuttin' up on boards as much as most folks, I'm guessin'. But when a point gets serious, and playfulness seems an improper response, and flippancy even worse, sometimes it's good to face-up to something one started, initiated, inserted or asserted. We're back to your having selected this quote from one of my earlier posts:
 
~
 
Elias:   "People like bug here, in defending their indefensible failure to achieve the spiritual vision of sovereignty,...."
 
To which you neatly replied:  ""Spiritual" - you're right, I don't want any spiritual visions - I want concrete reality. THIS WORLD freedom. Your kind of "freedom" is the kind that a prisoner in Leavenworth can get."
 
~
 
 Now Mr. Worry-bug, as we look at both our statements above, we find that I said some people, like yourself, would defend their lack of spiritual sensitivity, in so many words; and you came right back, saying you don't want any spiritual visions, adding that you prefer concrete reality. So tell me, if you admit that you want no part of spiritual reality, preferring in its stead your perceived "concrete" reality, wasn't my statement correct? You *have* failed to achieve the spiritual vision of sovereignty, just as I noted. And to preclude any reader's granting you the liberty of claiming ignorance, you blatantly and candidly confessed that you view spiritual vision as un-necessary and distractive, that you choose to deny the spiritual vision of sovereignty, don't want it, don't believe in it, and haven't time, interest, or motive to look into the concept while you're busily carving out of the petrified and coagulated details of your life your very own definition of freedom and liberty. Doesn't anything about that circumstance ring any bells, strike you as odd, rattle ominously in your head?
 
Maybe not. You're probably spinning much too much and much too fast, like a little squiggle-tailed sperm on its tubular trail to the egg of the world, to pay attention to the invisible stuff inside your head, for it's, after all, not concrete reality, and can't therefore matter. Which means you've divorced yourself from various levels within your mind, squelched numerous planes which are component to the structure of your subjective, personal psyche---which you can't now afford to admit exists.
 
Personally, it appears to me, from my perspective here, that you've decided firmly that "mind" is no "matter"; and that "matter" is.....well, never "mind". That may work for a philosophy course in school, as an exercise for bored students, but as Jung reminded Freud, there *are* spiritual impulses within the unobstructed mind. Call me on this if I'm wrong, but I think it was Einstein who established something called the theory of relativity, a notion which was fairly dominant in the 20th Century in many diverse venues. Mind *does* matter, for matter *is* mind before we can sense it as matter. That you have built your hypothesis about freedom without understanding the relationship between corporeal reality and spiritual reality doesn't surprise me; it's quite common in today's televised mindset. But that you would take it upon yourself to preach the virtues of the FSP while at the same time denying the very spiritual principle for which the "F" in "FSP" stands, *is* surprising to me. But.....
 
I asked you some questions. You completely overlooked them and, instead, you took the time and energy to distort and fabricate things which you attribute to me but which in truth I did not say. Why, Bug?
 
In getting to those points which I must challenge from your post, let's just start at the beginning. We need to speak about spirit, soul, and psyche, as I asked you previously to consider. Perhaps some things will come of it if we just begin our discourse:
 
~
 
Bug: Hard to get in a word edgewise here - sure you and jtk aren't the same person?
 
Elias: You are free to insert words here to your heart's contentment. And no; I am not jtk3. I'm only me. I do not impersonate other people, nor do I use other screen-names.  I like being Elias. I do use several variations on that theme, such as sometimes using "Old Elias" and "General Elias". But I'm always me. Just me. Not anyone else. Now you know.
 
~

Bug: You may be in a "compound" in Montana, but your defense is defuse and last-resort.
 
Elias: I did not say anything of the sort. I am not in a "compound", nor do I have any desire to be. I'm in the trenches, the front lines of the liberty movement, the 2nd American Revolution, fighting Fedgov for all I'm worth. I'm a loner, one who does not join groups, neither giving nor taking orders or directions, a guerrilla psyche-ops sort of rebel who believes that "consciousness works". I own a copy of "Neither Bullets Nor Ballots" by Watner and McElroy and George H. Smith, and have read it. I am keen on the principles of Voluntaryism. I also am a war veteran who was trained for guerrilla warfare by the U.S. Marine Corps. I know how to operate some *equipment* and stuff. I also know what spiritual impulse lies behind modern war, for as a veteran that same spirit engulfed a period in my life; can't deny it; can't get rid of it; can't overlook it. I'm an American-styled sovereign, well-accustomed to directing myself with honor and honesty. The last place you'll find me is in a damned "compound". Compounds are for defense, logistics, resupply, headquarters, and such. I'm on the offense. My life is an M-LRRP, a mental long-range recon patrol, and I report what I collect through intelligence. Knowledge is the one thing which can destroy today's imposter Fedgov, if it gets into the hands of the public. As Rageboy says: hyperlinks subvert authority. For *that*, I do not need a "compound". So please try not to put words into my mouth with quotations marks as you did. Thanks.
 
~

Bug: The FSP is focussed and trying to avoid the last-resort. A large group of people is harder to ignore, and harder to stomp flat then a Ruby Ridge or Waco.
 
Elias: Um, er, how much time do you suppose you have left for avoiding the "last-resort"? Do you really think there's that much more time left before the bastards drop that iron net of totalitarianism on us all? I've already told you that General Franks has already published the notion that we'll just have to toss out the Constitution and go to a military form of government if we suffer one more major *terrorist* attack. And I've already told you about the entire Federal mechanism's congealing via one national super-database, and I've told you countless other signs and symptoms which surely have not suggested to you that we have all the years it might take to pacify New Hampshire in a way which can save America. So maybe I'm a dumbass; maybe you should tell me how many more years you feel we have to hedge-up, shore-up, store-up, and brace-up before we're fighting jackboots and foreign troops on Federal payrolls in our yards, schoolgrounds, civic centers, religious buildings, shopping malls, and on roads and highways and streets across this land? How long we got, Dude?
 
~

Bug: ...You ding Silver for not spelling your name properly, yet you yourself blatantly mispell my own name in a derogatory fashion.
 
Elias: First part's wrong, last part's right. I had no notion whatsoever to "ding" Silver. I was merely being friendly, letting him get familiar with me, expressing my druthers on names in case he wanted to know my take on that topic. I like and respect Silver, and Silver can call me anything he wishes. But as he's such a sensitive and refined mentality, I figured he may want to know what I like to be called, so I offered without waiting to be asked. That was *not* a "ding", nor was it meant to be. Now as for you, well, you're right. I deliberately distort, modify, play-off-of, have fun with, and provoke you with my diversions upon, your name. Don't let that worry you, worry-bug! Until you have some sensitivity, no insult I can fling at you shall be capable of registering the damage done to your ego defense systems. To feel offended, violated, hurt by words, one must first possess sensitivities which derive from no where else than one's source of spirituality. Since you ain't got that, by your own choice, well, then it doesn't matter how I relate to you, does it? Concrete reality. No invisible stuff like spiritual vision. Just abject plain old reality, physical style, sensible, ever-present, the hard-fast soccer-ball of certainty, the consensus-sharing sensible spectacle.  
 
~

Bug: ...I don't respect most of the "conclusions" quantuum mechanics has come up with since the '30s.  
 
Elias: Well then; I'll have to be sure to let the scientific community know. The poor dears, they've no clue that all their labors have been for nought.  

~
 
Bug: Be careful, I know a *lot* about the subject, and the subjective interpretations placed precariously atop curious observations.  
 
Elias: Yep. It's those danged "subjective interpretations placed precariously atop curious observations", all right! But pray, why should I take your expertise in quantum-physics as a sign to "be careful"? Explain please?
 
 ~
 
Bug: "Scientists" who "find God" because they feel the need to ascribe unprovable causal relationships to phenomena they do not understand are contemptible, and damage the name of scientists past and present. Shrödinger's feline not withstanding.
 
Elias: If you say so. :)

~
 
Bug: ...In keeping with the last statement, the whole idea of a separate and superior "spiritual reality" is unprovable and irrelevant.
 
Elias: So is that premise I shared with you, the one which said that even though I cannot "prove" you have a mind, or even that if a mind exists, I would still give you the benefit of the doubt on that subject, is that premise null and void too, since it is unprovable, if *not* irrevelant? Dude, get a grip. Everyone already knows that psyche creates the physical Universe. Some call that Universe "Maya". You call it concrete. I call it the sea's all-crowing reach, among other things. The physical Universe is simply the sum total of mentality in all its extensions, which are infinite and indefinite. Have you never taken musical lessons?
 
 ~
 
 Bug: The only reality I am concerned about is the one we all share here and now. The one reality that cannot be explained away, and the one everybody is afraid to cease to exist.
 
Elias: Well, then I think I know now how to see you. I should let you know, however, that your statement does not apply to me. I see death as part of life. I have no fear of death, merely the wish to choose the terms on which I embrace that moment. I'm not afraid to die, for I do not id-entify myself with the body. So long as you think you're that body you're presently hovering within, and so long as you know that that body is bound to die some time, you're gonna naturally be afraid of death. That illusion, too, passes, hehehe. How we live, and how we die, of course is a spiritual matter, so you won't be requiring of me anything deeper, right?

~
 
Bug: ...The only reason Mr. Emerson liked the landscape that nobody earned was because Mr. Locke & company modified it to their own likings.
 
Elias: Please, Mr. Worry-bug, you simply cannot make that kind of statement to me and expect me to skip over it without commentary. Truth is, only Emerson *knew* what Emerson liked, and *why*. You were not in Mr. Emerson's head when he was inspired to say that, and if you're truthful you'll admit that. Not being in his head, you've no authorization to say what or why Emerson liked anything. Your statement is simply a deflection aimed at avoiding something inside your own head which I've been trying to arouse despite all your efforts to the contrary. Here's a guideline: you should not put words into my mouth, nor in Emerson's mouth. You'll fare better if you adhere to that suggestion, imo.

~
 
 Bug: I wonder if Mr. Emerson (a socialist, by the way) would have appreciated a mosquito attack from an unfilled swamp as much. Somehow, I doubt it.
 
Elias: See link below....

~
 
Bug: ...I am glad you find solace in religion.  
 
Elias: Again you betray your shallowness by putting words in my mouth. Doubtless, that comment by you is partially what is behind LL's exclamation about seeing Elias coming, lol! Dude, just so you'll know, I am not a religious person. You seem to have equated spirituality with religion. Well, I must tell you that in my view of life, there is absolutely NO connection between spirituality and religion. I am not religious. I am certainly spiritual. Big difference. Once again, you've jumped too hastily to your own misinformed and unqualified opinion, and associated my words on spirituality with the act of being "religious". Your bad.  
 
~

Bug: It is RELIGION that allows the miscreants in THIS world to subjucate, kill, torture, and pillage the productive peoples of the world by telling those poor bastards that justice will occur AFTER THEY'RE DEAD. I find the whole concept contemptible.
 
Elias: Well well! We finally have found something on which we can agree. Hope aboundeth! :)
 
~

Bug: 'nuff said.
 
Elias: Nope. I'm afraid there is yet much to be said. Hang in there, lol, and we'll get a round tuit.
 
~

Bug, signing off:  "Worrybug"  
 
Elias: See? It fits! Even you yourself have used it. It's kinda cute, doncha think?
 
~

Now Worrybug, here is something just for you. It will help you see that I indeed do like bugs. There is, hidden in the lines of this tale, something which I would call "meaning", and that "meaning", I would further hold,  is spiritual in its origin as well as in its application here in "concrete reality". After you read this, please let me know if you could find any meaning in the tale, k? That will help us guess whether Mr. Emerson might have liked a natural buzz of mosquitoes in an un-improved swamp, or not. Like his friend, Henry David Thoreau, Ralph Waldo Emerson may have seen the miraculous in the commonplace, even in the lowly and pesky mosquito. For all we know.....
 
http://www.thementalmilitia.org/modules.ph...&artid=3&page=1
 
But Bug, again I must ask, since you've ignored this question: what is the difference between Spirit, Soul, and Psyche? It's really a good question, one worth pursuing, don't you think?
 
Elias
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"Heirs to self-knowledge shed gently their fears..."
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