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Author Topic: OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO  (Read 18921 times)

Ted Nielsen

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« on: February 09, 2004, 08:48:28 am »

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:58:35 am by Ted Nielsen »
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Ted Nielsen

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2004, 11:11:15 am »

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:58:03 am by Ted Nielsen »
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Elias Alias

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2004, 12:55:27 pm »

Salute!

Y'all have done a great job. I can't wait!

 :rolleyes:  
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Ted Nielsen

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2004, 06:46:57 pm »

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:57:38 am by Ted Nielsen »
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Elias Alias

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2004, 03:44:15 am »

Yup. He shore did. Fun. It will involve merely three arrangements. The first has already been arranged. That is "The Booze Hounds", who have agreed to open the show. I'm working on the other two right now, and will let you guys on the Steering Committee know asap. I'll get with Fishbone and show him what is available, and then he can present it to your Steering Committee for adjusting and/or approving. It won't be long now....

 B)

btw, I got it up over at TMM, as Don suggested.
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Ted Nielsen

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2004, 08:21:35 pm »

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:56:04 am by Ted Nielsen »
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2004, 01:05:21 am »

The "Great Westerners" claim they are not competing against the Free State Project - yet they have already hijacked this part of Claire Wolfe's Board.

I am not asking you to cease or anything like that. However, I would like you to acknowledge the reality of your actions. You must admit that you ARE competing with the FSP.

'Bug
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ladylearning

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2004, 04:21:09 am »

Quote
The "Great Westerners" claim they are not competing against the Free State Project - yet they have already hijacked this part of Claire Wolfe's Board.

I am not asking you to cease or anything like that. However, I would like you to acknowledge the reality of your actions. You must admit that you ARE competing with the FSP.

'Bug
Hi Bug,
 
Sometime in the early years of 1900, around 1920, a company by the name of "Frigidaire"  perfected a refidgerated appliance to be used in the home.  It was marketed under the name "Frigidaire".  For a number of years this company pretty much had the corner on that market.  After only a few years other companies had similar products.
But some 30 years later, when I was growing up in the 50's, we had a "frigidaire". Only problem was, it wasn't a "Frigidaire".  It was a refridgerator made by another company but practically everyone (at least within my tiny part of the world, and in my memory) called all such appliances "frigidaires".  

In my opinion, the "Great Westerners" are not in competition with the New Hampshire Free State Project. As other similar endeavors to create free states begin, there will be comparisons.  But competition isn't necessary and doesn't have to be the order of the day.
Asside from conversations such as this, I personally would like to see all states begin such a process.  People like ourselves yearn to be free but we also yearn to do so in an environment and locale of our choosing.
New Hampshire and the new England states are not to some's liking.  The ruggedness of the western states won't be as well.  Some Floridians that would choose neither may begin a similar "project".
Aside from the natural inclination to refer to it as a "free state", a "frigidaire" if you will, where is the harm in that?
Your comment that the Free State Project thread has been "hijacked" is perhaps a bit shortsighted but if you wish, and with the feedback of others, I'll put the recommendation to Debra that this thread be placed in another topic.  Given the structure of the board as it now is, this category was best suited to this particular thread, IMO.
Comments?

LL
 
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debra

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2004, 10:12:57 am »

IMO, I should probably change the title of this forum. Although it started out as FSP (since that's the only "project" I've been involved with) it should probably be "FSP and Similar Projects". Particularly since most of the other projects (like the GWC) are offshoots or emulations of the FSP.

So feel free to chat away about Free Wyoming, or the Montana/Wyoming/Idaho project.  :D
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Elias Alias

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2004, 02:45:11 pm »

Quote
The "Great Westerners" claim they are not competing against the Free State Project - yet they have already hijacked this part of Claire Wolfe's Board.

I am not asking you to cease or anything like that. However, I would like you to acknowledge the reality of your actions. You must admit that you ARE competing with the FSP.

'Bug
Dang! I hate getting caught this quickly!

You're right, Bug. All us Westerners have engaged in the most massive plot ever devised since 1913. We *ARE* trying to compete with the FSP, and we thought we could get away with it. I can't believe we've been caught so quickly. Dang.

But now that you've pegged us, pinned us to the wall, exposed our wickedness, and revealed our clandestine motives, I may as well come clean with you. I hate the FSP!  Hate hate hate the FSP! The raw nerve of those self-righteous freedom-groupies, to go off and pitch a free state! Hell, they ORGANIZED the damn thing without consulting *me*. Imagine that.  So I figured "I'll teach them!" Thus began my mission of competition.

They somehow must have tricked me when I joined the FSP as a "Friend".  (The reason I didn't join as a "member" was because I was afraid they might choose some state other than Montana, where I happen to happily live.)  You see, I wanted to support the FSP, but I did not want to lose MY freedom to live in Montana, so I did not join as a "member", but instead I joined as a "friend" of the FSP. Of course the real reason I joined FSP as a "friend-of" was so I could spy on 'em. Yep, I sometimes double as a double agent.

To gain some advantage in my spying mission against FSP, I did meet Jason Sorens in Missoula last year, in May, and had a brief conversation with him. I told him then and there that I would not be joining as a regular member, for if they ended up voting for some state back East, I simply would not be able to keep my vow to move with them. Jason understood, and said he appreciated my support as a "friend of the FSP". That was when I knew I had won his trust. From there I infiltrated more closely into the core of the FSP. I took notes at the GWC, paying close attention to their unspoken intent to select an East Coast state as the Free State. (Sure enough, my fears came true. New Hampshire was chosen as the Free State some months later.) Then I joined-up with the LRT "list", just so I could get FSP updates from Mary Lou Seymore, which I could analyse. Then I tricked Sunni and Lobo into holding the LRT's annual Conclave here in Montana, so I could secretly spy on other FSPers who are also LRTers. That worked like a charm. Then I started hanging out here at the Claire Files boards. My intent was to disrupt, to cast doubt, to introduce previously-unseen obstacles to the fulfillment of FSP's goals. But mostly, my intent was to compete! Heck, I love to compete. Competition is one of my cherished character-flaws. I nurture it. I keep a little "Competition Demon" on my shoulder, and I listen to everything the little shit whispers in my ear. Each time he says, Go Compete With FSP!", well, I just do it. HU-ah!!!

And now I've been exposed. Can't believe the bad luck! You're pretty perceptive there, y'kno?

Well, my meeting with Jason happened last May. And guess what.....it was at the Grand Western Conference in Missoula, Montana.  Jason had flown out there to give a presentation.  Can't imagine why. That was the first Grand Western Conference. Jason was there. Let that sink in for just a moment, please. For the Grand Western Conference II, just so you'll know, Jason was also invited. I wanted to pick his brain, y'kno? So I could better compete with him.

But Bug, I've got a personal problem I'd like to take up with you. For all my efforts in competing with the FSP, I'm still left with a couple of dilemmas. First, I'm wondering now, after having been exposed by you as a competitor against FSP, how I could have been dumb enough all along to think that one can "compete" with freedom.  Or how "freedom" can *have* any competition anyway. Perhaps I need to go back and re-read the "GWC Revisited". Wanna join me?

http://www.thementalmilitia.org/modules.ph...article&sid=190

While playfully acknowledging your post here, and your concerns about free people somehow competing with the Free State Project, I've had a bit of fun. But as you know, there is more to this than meets the eye. If you reply to this bit of mischief, I'll find it tonight when I get home from work, and I'll be glad to show you in more specific terms exactly why nobody here is competing with the FSP. Thanks for giving me a momentary smile.

Takin'  liberty,
Elias
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2004, 03:23:07 pm »

Elias, you forgot to [/SARCASM].

I didn't want to get into a flame war. But I did mention "incendiary" so I guess I'm getting paid back.

The intent to "lure" a small segment of the US population to a single location and therefore be able to dismantle the state presupposes recruitment of people. The pool of people is the US (for the most part).

The important factor here is NOT the extremely hard-core libertarians, rather the next rung down the ladder of strong libertarians who don't think about it everyday. Or libertarians with fence sitter spouses.

We have to convince enough from this group to do a difficult thing and move to a cold place probably far from their home.

Now, believe it or not, there are a lot of people who don't like EITHER the West or New England. Somebody in Alabama is probably going to be equally disdainful of both destinations. I know a lot of Westerners (such as Mr. Party) cannot fathom indifference to this subject, but it's true.

So both the Westerners and the FSP are singing siren songs to this group and they either will choose one, OR they will think the message is diluted and choose neither.

In this analysis, you are in competition with FSP.

All I want, is for you guys to acknowledge this.

I figure you guys are here to stay. It is not in the FSP's interest to be hostile, or even to create negative noise - about anything. Please see my "fast food" analogy on another thread.

Regarding Jason Sorens' appearance at the GWC last year - well that was a different situation, then, wasn't it? The FSP hadn't voted yet, and the Western states were in the running for selection. If you look at the vote, you will see that my thesis about "dilution" played out exactly that way for the FSP vote.

The reason why an Eastern state was selected was precisely BECAUSE there were several good Western candidates, but only ONE good Eastern Candidate. If you took all the AK/WY/MT/ID votes together, they beat the NH vote. The dilution happened because EACH OF THE WESTERN STATES WAS COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER. So they didn't get selected.

This is a flaw of the Condorcet voting method, whose objective is different than the FSP's state selection goal. Quite obvious in hindsight (as is everything).

It is quite possible, in my view, that if there is more than one candidate for an FSP, then again, they will each NOT gather enough steam to succeed, but rather could languish. If all the porcupines went to one state, then it's quite possible to succeed. But split between two or more states - well, it makes it that much more difficult to get the block of voters you're looking for, doesn't it?

'Bug
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kbarrett

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2004, 05:53:42 pm »

Quote
If all the porcupines went to one state, then it's quite possible to succeed. But split between two or more states - well, it makes it that much more difficult to get the block of voters you're looking for, doesn't it?
The biggist problem the porcupines have is that Zack Bass is moving to New Hampshire.

Competition from westerners pales in comparison.

 
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ladylearning

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2004, 06:16:13 pm »

Geez Debra, that's the perfect solution.  I like impeccable reason and clear logic.... too bad I don't display it more often.  
You know, you really should be paid for this... <snort>  :lol:

LL
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2004, 06:47:52 pm »

Ok, I'll bite - who is Zack Bass? The name sounds familiar....guess I'll do a google on it.

Is he a porcupine?

'Bug
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ladylearning

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OFFICAL ANNOUNCEMENT: GWC II IS A GO
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2004, 06:49:00 pm »

Quote
It is quite possible, in my view, that if there is more than one candidate for an FSP, then again, they will each NOT gather enough steam to succeed, but rather could languish. If all the porcupines went to one state, then it's quite possible to succeed. But split between two or more states - well, it makes it that much more difficult to get the block of voters you're looking for, doesn't it?

OK Bug, I DO see your point.  Fence sitters may choose NH if no other choices were available.
But that's a broad assumption.  Some may wish to support the concept but totally unwilling to move east. Tell me, should there be no alternative and is there that much concern about the success of the NH FSP?  
And consider this, suppose enough people would choose a tri-state Western area and it was successful.  Wouldn't that be a good thing for liberty?  
Does success have to fall within such narrow parameters?
 :unsure:

LL
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