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Author Topic: Moles  (Read 23110 times)

Jebur27

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Moles
« on: February 12, 2004, 03:30:48 pm »

Claire,

Thanks for the words of encouragement (& the ideas) [Some of my best friends are moles].  I have felt that I have been moving too slowly.  I've been a libertarian most of my life, but went to sleep in my early 20's.  

A few years ago, my wife & I woke up (your writing helped a great deal).  We joined the local Lib. Party  & were active with them for a couple of years (we loved going to gun shows & Hemp-Fests), but it just did not seem to be right for me or her.  

Now, I'm ready to jump in with both feet, but my wife is not, yet.  I am ready to help where I can, though.  (This is both a statement & an offer to all.)  

To be fair to myself, I have begun to shrug.  I am currently trying to find project work (I am a programmer) & keep off of corporate payrolls.  When I can, I work under the table.  This keeps my wife a little edgy, but, hopefully, it is also helping to inure her to a less "secure" lifestyle.  

==================================
If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives then all will go well.  This is called Acting Naturally.
- Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King


 
 
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There is only one thing that remains to us, that cannot be taken away: To act with courage and dignity and to stick to the ideals that have given meaning to life.
-Jawaharlal Nehru


There's no joke we can tell about the fedgov that they can't turn into an even more absurd truth about themselves.
-Claire Wolfe

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest". -- Denis Diderot

Jebur27

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Moles
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2004, 03:33:13 pm »

Seems that maybe this should have gone in the Hardyville section.  If so, sorry.
 
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There is only one thing that remains to us, that cannot be taken away: To act with courage and dignity and to stick to the ideals that have given meaning to life.
-Jawaharlal Nehru


There's no joke we can tell about the fedgov that they can't turn into an even more absurd truth about themselves.
-Claire Wolfe

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest". -- Denis Diderot

Bobaloo

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Moles
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2004, 07:18:25 pm »

I'm in a similar boat myself.  Several years ago, I quit my job and started my own software company.  What I discovered almost right away is that having your own company is an excellent way to minimize your "contribution" to the state, without out-and-out going underground.  The biggest ripoff isn't the income tax, it's the Social Security tax.  If you hire yourself (weird, huh?), you can pay yourself a much lower salary and draw profits out of the company, which can reduce the overall amount you're taxed by almost 15%.  (Remember that what you used to lose from your paycheck to Social Security was actually matched by your employer, for a combined tax of around 15%).  

I'm still a "tool of the man", but I'm a much less useful tool to the man than I was before, and I'm able to trim the number of people poking their noses into my finances.  Sure, the IRS still gets returns from me, but they're not filtered by a CPA, or worse, a seasonal tax preparation employee.  CPA's want you to file your taxes in a way that avoids an audit - they don't care if you would win an audit, since they're required to testify about how they prepared your returns, for free, if you're audited.  They're like the IRS's first line of inquiry - they don't work for you, they work for them.  Did you know that one of the factors determining who gets audited is who prepared their taxes?  That's right, if your CPA has a client that gets audited, the IRS may decide to audit more people who used the same CPA.  So let's see - they don't help me minimize my taxes, and using a CPA actually makes me more likely to be audited.  I say, chuck 'em!

If you want to go further underground, you can always try to land short-term contract jobs via the internet.  If at all possible, get the client to pay in e-gold, thereby leaving virtually no paper trail.
 
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Loxosceles_Reclusa

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Moles
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2004, 07:35:07 pm »

I'm pretty sure there is no one and never will be anyone who would break the law and risk the loss of their own freedom for me. No one who would "front" for me by "owning" land, cars, or other property for me  in their name, or who would make now-seriously-illegal "strawman" gun purchases for me. Or let me use their address as a mail drop. Or hide me or help me travel via an "underground railroad."

 Not unless I was so wealthy that I could bribe them generously. And the bribes might have to be ever-*more* generous, until they amounted to a kind of blackmail. I'm just not the sort of likeable, attractive, or charismatic person people do things like that for. On the contrary, I'm the sort of person who gets *turned in* and ratted out for things most people would never consider snitching on anyone for.

 I used to have a lot of problems of that sort, before I gave up on having any sort of social life or participation in the regular human life program. Interestingly, it was usually the ubiquitous illegal drug users/dealers who were the quickest to give me up to the law. (They disliked and distrusted  me because I didn't partake of pot, their holy sacrament. They felt no scruples about snitching on an Infidel square like me, for any little thing they could get on me. It frequently involved 2nd Amendment issues, BTW.). This was when they weren't spreading it around that I was some sort of "nark" (police spy), and persuading "private sector" people to sabotage my car and/or physically attack me. I lost count of the times I was menaced, threatened, and outright attacked by total strangers under initially inexplicable circumstances, which often turned out later to have been honest-to-God set-ups or "put-up jobs." I have reason to believe that in some of these incidents "payment" in the form of drugs, sexual favors, and even cash had even been rendered, or at least promised.)

 Lox
« Last Edit: February 12, 2004, 07:44:15 pm by Loxosceles_Reclusa »
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David

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Moles
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2004, 07:56:49 pm »

I'm pretty sure there is no one and never will be anyone who would break the law and risk the loss of their own freedom for me. No one who would "front" for me by "owning" land, cars, or other property for me in their name, or who would make now-seriously-illegal "strawman" gun purchases for me. Or let me use their address as a mail drop. Or hide me or help me travel via an "underground railroad."

I doubt that many people have those sorts of friends, that type of dedication exist generally in causes, not for individuals



Not unless I was so wealthy that I could bribe them generously. And the bribes might have to be ever-*more* generous, until they amounted to a kind of blackmail. I'm just not the sort of likeable, attractive, or charismatic person people do things like that for. On the contrary, I'm the sort of person who gets *turned in* and ratted out for things most people would never consider snitching anyone in for.

We are the type of person who gets turned in


I used to have a lot of problems of that sort, before I gave up on having any sort of social life or participation in the regular human life program. Interestingly, it was usually the ubiquitous illegal drug users/dealers who were the quickest to give me up to the law. (They disliked and distrusted me because I didn't partake of pot, their holy sacrament. They felt no scruples about snitching on an Infidel square like me, for any little thing they could get on me. It frequently involved 2nd Amendment issues, BTW.)

I don't quite get it...
People call Me a gun toting, isolationist, misanthropic, loner, paranoid,
like that's a bad thing!
 
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TANSTAAFL

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Moles
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2004, 08:24:48 pm »

Guess it's different for us all---and maybe my background makes it different as well--but if I  someone or see someone (as in there being no question to that persons character) I would not hesitate to cover for, hide, or defend with force most anyone if the situation occurred. Nothing new.

I make no claim on anyone but I'd damn sure like to know there are others who'd do the same for me, but if not, oh well.

It has to start somewhere and someone has to take the first shot.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2004, 08:25:48 pm by TANSTAAFL »
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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Moles
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2004, 09:01:23 pm »

This is a variation on a conundrum of my own.

Picture this, you're driving along a major interstate. You see a cop car's flashing lights. He has pulled over a non-descript 2 or 3 year old vehicle. WAIT! There is a shootout happening right in front of you! The cop is hit and on the ground! The driver, who appears to be wearing normal clothes, and is clean shaven and "reputable" looking is going around his car with gun out. It appears that he wants to "finish" the cop?

You have a CCW and a firearm with you.

What do you do?

20 years ago, without hesitation, I would come to the aid of the cop.

Today, I am not so sure. That car and that driver look like they could be me! There is so much corruption and looting going on from cops today that I would honestly not know who the bad guy in this situation would be! So many situations that I have mulled over in my mind that could escalate to something like this - especially in California. Cops are so trigger happy today, that THEY shoot first and then frame the victims.

My hesitation here could very well spell the end for the cop due to "freezing" my ability to act.

What about you guys?

'Bug
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Loxosceles_Reclusa

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Moles
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2004, 09:01:55 pm »

Quote
Guess it's different for us all---and maybe my background makes it different as well--but if I  someone or see someone (as in there being no question to that persons character) I would not hesitate to cover for, hide, or defend with force most anyone if the situation occurred. Nothing new.

I make no claim on anyone but I'd damn sure like to know there are others who'd do the same for me, but if not, oh well.

It has to start somewhere and someone has to take the first shot.

 Duly noted, TANSTAAFL. And I hope that if I am ever in a position to help you or someone like you that I would do so. But I feel pretty certain that I've got to *get* in that position first. Right now I can't even help myself much, other than by staying home most of the time. It's hard to say what I will or won't be able to do someday, though. Of course, no matter how well situated, dug-in, or equipped I ever get, I'll always have to be on guard against undercover "plants" and the like, trying to take me "by intrigue," rather than by storm. Everybody needs to look out.  For instance, right now I'd be afraid that almost anyone offering good fake I.D.s was fronting for some sort of government sting operation.

 Lox
« Last Edit: February 12, 2004, 09:09:28 pm by Loxosceles_Reclusa »
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Loxosceles_Reclusa

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Moles
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2004, 09:06:53 pm »

Quote
This is a variation on a conundrum of my own.

Picture this, you're driving along a major interstate. You see a cop car's flashing lights. He has pulled over a non-descript 2 or 3 year old vehicle. WAIT! There is a shootout happening right in front of you! The cop is hit and on the ground! The driver, who appears to be wearing normal clothes, and is clean shaven and "reputable" looking is going around his car with gun out. It appears that he wants to "finish" the cop?

You have a CCW and a firearm with you.

What do you do?

20 years ago, without hesitation, I would come to the aid of the cop.

Today, I am not so sure. That car and that driver look like they could be me! There is so much corruption and looting going on from cops today that I would honestly not know who the bad guy in this situation would be! So many situations that I have mulled over in my mind that could escalate to something like this - especially in California. Cops are so trigger happy today, that THEY shoot first and then frame the victims.

My hesitation here could very well spell the end for the cop due to "freezing" my ability to act.

What about you guys?

'Bug

 Almost my feelings exactly, 'Bug -- except that I think it's even more painful and wrenching for me since my father was a cop, and my grandfather was a cop (and they were both good men, and I loved them), and I even used to have a few cop friends, or I thought I did anyway.  :(

 Lox
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David

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Moles
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2004, 09:19:49 pm »


This is a variation on a conundrum of my own.

Picture this, you're driving along a major interstate. You see a cop car's flashing lights. He has pulled over a non-descript 2 or 3 year old vehicle. WAIT! There is a shootout happening right in front of you! The cop is hit and on the ground! The driver, who appears to be wearing normal clothes, and is clean shaven and "reputable" looking is going around his car with gun out. It appears that he wants t
o "finish" the cop?


Interesting thatyou mention that the person with a gun looks "reputable" sort of like, Ted Bundy instead of a dark, greasy grimy grifter type.




You have a CCW and a firearm with you.

What do you do?

20 years ago, without hesitation, I would come to the aid of the cop
.


Live and learn



Today, I am not so sure. That car and that driver look like they could be me! There is so much corruption and looting going on from cops today that I would honestly not know who the bad guy in this situation would be! So many situations that I have mulled over in my mind that could escalate to something like this - especially in California. Cops are so trigger happy today, that THEY shoot first and then frame the victims.


Not today  Bug, that's pretty much the way it's always been, it's just that after years of getting away with it, the government now treats people like you the same way they have treated others for years




My hesitation here could very well spell the end for the cop due to "freezing" my ability to act.

What about you guys?



The supreme fools have said (rightly) the the cops do not owe you protection, why do you owe it to the government?
Moreover, why involve yourself in a fight that's not yours? Where by your own admission you do not know the issues?

 If a person threatens you defend yourself, don't involve yourself in the affairs of the government,
They will not like it, people have been shot (by cops) coming to the aide of an injured Officer

 
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Claire

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Moles
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2004, 09:35:48 pm »

Quote
I'm pretty sure there is no one and never will be anyone who would break the law and risk the loss of their own freedom for me. No one who would "front" for me by "owning" land, cars, or other property for me  in their name, or who would make now-seriously-illegal "strawman" gun purchases for me. Or let me use their address as a mail drop. Or hide me or help me travel via an "underground railroad."
 
I have to clarify one thing. "Buying 'Brady' guns for the unBradied" in today's blog entry did NOT necessarily imply an illegal straw-man purchase. One could buy a Brady gun then give or sell it to a friend who simply wanted a private purchase. If the friend isn't otherwise forbidden to own firearms, that would not be an illegal act in most states. In fact, a lot of the things I listed are in no way illegal. And some aren't even risky.

As to whether anyone would do these things for you or anybody else, Lox, who knows? What David said about such things being done "more for causes than individuals" is probably true. But you never know what amazing things casual friends or even complete strangers might do for you in an emergency.

You don't know what horrible things they might do to you, either.  :(  But look at all the tiny acts of heroism ordinary people have committed ... helping slaves escape to Canada ... hiding Jews from Hitler in their cellars and attics ... rushing to neighbors' or strangers' aid. It happens -- and even moreso when people tire of injustice and feel they have no big way of striking back. They'll strike back in small ways, even at risk to themselves.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2004, 09:36:22 pm by Claire »
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


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RagnarDanneskjold

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Moles
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2004, 10:03:18 pm »

Quote
Yeah, I do believe that dropping out and refusing to fund the growing police state is the most moral individual choice. But it's not necessarily the most practical choice. And if we're really to have a freedom movement and not just a bunch of ragged individuals, we need our "mole" brothers just as much as we need any other sort of freedom partisans.

F'r'instance, some of the most staunch revolutionaries were some of the wealthiest.  John Hancock comes to mind.  Of course, along with his legitimate business and his paying of some taxes, he was also involved in some smuggling.  He was also, I believe, one of only 2 people (Sam Adams being the other) who were not "pardoned" by the king. If it had not been for John Hancock and a few other wealthy individuals, the revolution would have failed for lack of funds. So, yes, we need moles who "participate in their game."
Quote
If the really bad times ever come, then a whole lot of non-dropouts are suddenly going to be there, in committed and personal ways, to help less stable and secure freedom fighters.

I'm sure some are there already.
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You are a ass shit.

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Eternal_Vigilance

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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2004, 11:23:39 pm »

Worst case scenario, make your own guns. Hey, it worked for the Afghanis against the the Russian military might...

 On a side note, it seems there was a case not too long ago in which a guy's lawyer argued that the full-auto machine gun he made was NOT illegal for not having the BATFEXYZ transfer tax paid, as it was made BY his client FOR his client. Now, I confess that the guy in question was convicted for other reasons (being a scumbag), but if you can get a guy in prison off of charges like this...

 Lastly, but perhaps of most importance, how long will you let someone else run your life and by what right do they do so? Would it have been wise for Jews to ask Hitler's govt. for permission? Why, then is it wise for US?

Yours in Liberty,
Randall
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Hidden_Variable

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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2004, 11:48:33 pm »

We are ALL moles to one extent or another. Sad but true.
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Junker

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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2004, 12:18:09 am »

---Posted by: Jebur27 Feb 12 2004, 02:30 PM
>Thanks for the words of encouragement (& the ideas)...

Claire has done that for many of us. So, thanks, Claire, from me too (& I always bought:-).

>...I have begun to shrug.
>...(I am a programmer).... ...I work under the table.

'Shrug' indicates to me an 'objectivist' background. Read David King. He shrugged early and has written some good things.
  ... A Guide to the Philosophy of Objectivism by David King
  Who the hell is David King? ...TO SHRUG - AN ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLE FOR AN INDIVIDUALIST
  http://www.vix.com/objectivism/Writing/Dav...ivism/INDEX.HTM

Objectivism is a part of it, but it's the others that may be more relevant.
Individualism and so on. Also, he has for wheel bikes for local transport--relevant to the transportation thread.

- - -Posted by: Bobaloo Feb 12 2004, 06:18 PM
>...get the client to pay in e-gold, thereby leaving virtually no paper trail.

I thought they charged 1% p.a. to keep the gold there. Isn't there a cheaper way? Or should that be a whole new thread? (new thread 1)

- - -Posted by: Loxosceles_Reclusa Feb 12 2004, 06:35 PM
>..."front" for me by "owning" land, cars, or other property..., or ... gun purchases ... Or ... mail drop. Or hide me or help me travel via an "underground railroad."

Very interesting. That could be a nice business.
All commo via pgp for commo & ident, use temp mail accounts; start corps to hold registerable property--land, car, etc.; semi-clean PO Boxes, or more obscure delivery services--depends on what's being delivered to where... Now there is another entrepreneur opportunity--an 'anonymous' via pgp delivery service. We could get rich here. (new thread 2)

>  ..."underground railroad."
Everyone should be watching for this. I think particularly communities. (new thread 3)

- - -Posted by: TANSTAAFL Feb 12 2004, 07:24 PM
>...I would not hesitate to cover for, hide, or defend with force most anyone ....
... but I'd damn sure like to know there are others who'd do the same for me, ....

Good man, TAANSTAAFL. Mass life isn't much like that anymore. Used to be all civilized people against any usurpers, but now the usurpers live right among us. Thus the need for smaller community, and knowing who's who.

- - -Posted by: H.M. WoggleBug, T.E. Feb 12 2004, 08:01 PM
>... What do you do? ... Today, I am not so sure. ... What about you guys?

Not me. I'll take David's 'don't involve yourself in the affairs of the government'. And as I just said for TAANSTAAFL, usurpers are everywhere, so don't involve yourself in the affairs of people you don't know. Not good, not nice, but that seems the way it needs to be now. IMO, of course. Sorta like Geo. W.--don't involve yourself in the affairs of Europe, only more so.

- - -Posted by: Loxosceles_Reclusa Feb 12 2004, 08:01 PM
>>QUOTE (TANSTAAFL @ Feb 12 2004, 07:24 PM)
>>It has to start somewhere and someone has to take the first shot.

>Duly noted, TANSTAAFL. And I hope that if I am ever in a position to help you or someone like you that I would do so. ... Everybody needs to look out. For instance, right now I'd be afraid that almost anyone offering good fake I.D.s was fronting for some sort of government sting operation.

Note above. This is another business that needs anonymous pgp dealing, etc. Also, we need the requisite reputation services. Another business. And, TANSTAAFL, such businesses need programmers & net-savvy people. (new thread 4)

- - -Posted by: Loxosceles_Reclusa Feb 12 2004, 08:06 PM
>... since my father was a cop, and my grandfather was a cop ...

Used to be, mostly good cops. Yours, Lox, are and were good. I can be somewhat envious. And a good cop can be very good. Nowadays, seems we got more and more bad ones. The good ones gotta get out. Someday, I think, it will become more and more an open season on cops. Good luck and good life to all your ex-cops.

- - -Posted by: David Feb 12 2004, 08:19 PM
>... If a person threatens you defend yourself, don't involve yourself in the affairs of the government,

As above. The good and only way to proceed nowadays. Good post, David.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2005, 05:05:20 am by Junker »
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