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Author Topic: Moles  (Read 23109 times)

rick

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Moles
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2004, 03:06:41 pm »

Quote
Picture this, you're driving along a major interstate. You see a cop car's flashing lights. He has pulled over a non-descript 2 or 3 year old vehicle. WAIT! There is a shootout happening right in front of you! The cop is hit and on the ground! The driver, who appears to be wearing normal clothes, and is clean shaven and "reputable" looking is going around his car with gun out. It appears that he wants to "finish" the cop?

You have a CCW and a firearm with you.

Well, here in Gun Owners' Hell, if I had the scarce "Privilege" of a CCW license, I'd get lost and would pray to a god I don't believe in that nobody had noticed me or remembered the license plate of my car. Being involved in a shoot-out where a cop gets killed (or only pissed) would mean that I would be suspect number one and only. I have been mugged five times now (Hey, it's safe and snug Germany!!!). The first time, some 22 years ago, I was stupid enough to call the police. In the center of a fairly large city (200 000 inhabitants) it took the cops 45 minuztes to cover 2/3 of a mile from their precinct to the place where I was holding the assailant under kind of citizen's arrest, severely injured. The cops greeted the assailant as the old friend he apparently was, took them back to jail where he had escaped a few weeks ago - and filed criminal charges - against me. Aggravated assault. Took a good lawyer and much patience (and money) to get rid of their charge. The assailant, in jail for aggravated assault, drug trafficking and several other violent crimes was not charged except for escaping from prison. Then I swore to NEVER help those bastards again. From the next day on, I was always armed when I had to do anything outside my appartment.
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rick

I bear no hate against a living thing I just love my freedom all above the King

dervish

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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2005, 04:32:30 am »

Would I aid a cop?  Not under normal circumstances.  This is in part because many of them say we are not to involve ourselves in thier biz (as if it wasn't ours), and also because too many cops have done bad things and tend to operate behind a "blue shield."

Generally, I'd consider myself not knowing enough and letting them work out their own balances.  What would get interesting is if I saw someone that was clearly being brutalized for political or even personal reasons.  Would I give aid against the cop?  

Perhaps that's too dangerous a question to explore on a public messageboard.



OH!  Btw, I had a dream with a similar situation!  Even more interesting was that Lox was in that dream (the one and only time I dreamed of him--but that's too weird to describe).  Anyway, I was in Safeway when there was an argument between two cops and a suspected shoplifter.  They had a major attitude and he knocked one down and shot the other one.

I ducked and got my own gun ready to draw.  But as the guy ran then, I didn't do anything.  I thought the guy went overkill, but the cops had been nasty enough that I wasn't entirely sympathetic to them.

Then outside we were all being held as witnesses while a major manhunt was getting started.  But there was this one guy who said he had to go home.  His wife was sick or something.  I don't recall that part (but I could find out if I wanted to spend a few minutes or so looking, which I don't want to do right now).  But the point was it was important for him to go.  He was willing to give his statement then and there, or to give his address so he could be contacted later.  But the cop was being a total pig about it and I wondered why the cop hadn't learned to correct his behavior given what had happened to his partner.

I don't know if I'd do this in real life, but in my dream I told the married man to go home "under my authority."  You know.... I don't recall exactly what happened after that.  When the cop's attention turned to me, I did something but I forget what.  I knew I had to enforce my law though, and that finally included using a gun (his or mine, I forget).  Then I had to go hide.  Lox, who was a sentient truck I think, helped me to escape, but as I say that part got really weird.

Course we tend to do weird things in dreams, so it doesn't mean that I WOULD have done the same while awake.  But I do think the potential for my doing that exists within me.



Hey Lox, IIRC, you're near Virginia.  Virginia has some of the most lax gun laws in the nation, or so I've heard.  If you go to an unlicensed dealer, you should be able to buy whatever they have (and you can afford).  From what I've picked up about you, I seriously doubt you'd give off cop vibes.   I expect your chewing your lip over the prices will ease any fears that you might be trying to set one of them up (so that you don't get sent to prison yourself), too.   ;)



Btw, the person who first introduced me to the books of Claire Wolfe, L. Neil Smith, etc, was something of a mole in politics.  She managed to do a little good, but she was always fired for it.  She even got threatened by a deputy after she exposed what the commissioners were doing on live TV (and she was smart enough to use the media of the next town over, who were generally preferred in her own town anyway).  So it's not like you can do a lot of good playing their game without getting fired and possibly in as much trouble as being an outlaw.

She ran for office in the small town she's in now (and came close to winning, too), but she said she only did that because she needed the job.  She told me she felt dirty for simply being on the ballot.  She's looking for a way to drop out completely at this point, saying there just isn't anything that can be done to save this country by playing the game.  It's just way too rigged and/or messed up.   She says she thinks there's a coming collapse and it scares her, but she'd be even more scared if she found out there wasn't gonna be a collapse/revolution after all.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2005, 04:47:22 am by dervish »
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Alpha: "We could end this quickly, if you'd only listen to my advice."

Obi-Wan: "We are not assassinating every surviving political leader on this planet."

— Alpha and Obi-Wan Kenobi discuss options on Jabiim

henshawe

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Moles
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2005, 12:59:29 pm »

Many good posts and musings here, my contribution to all this is the following caution, NEVER, NEVER put your trust, faith or anything else in the hope that the cops will have your intrests as a concern of any importance to them, THE POLICE, THAT MEANS ANY SWORN OFFICER, ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND AND CAN NEVER BE TRUSTED!!!! Do not give them any information, help, assistance, shelter, and certainly never put your life and freedom on the line for them, because you can be certain they will turn on you because you are an easy target. It does not matter that you are an innocent bystander or a good samaritian, you interfered with a police officer in the performance(sic) of his/her duty and are, a priori, guilty of a crime for which the cop will most certainly charge you if it is necessary for him/her to CYA. For any sane person the rule is to have NO interaction, if at all possible, with these goons. Keep a low profile, do not drive flashy cars, wear flashy clothes, jewelery, have flashy hair cuts, run your mouth about what you are doing to strangers, or where you can be overheard by strangers. In order to live a realitively free life style you must decide what is you want and how to get it, decide what the cost benefit ratio is and then decide whether you will go for it or forget it and remain in your current situation however shity it may be, If you decide to "shrug", "gulch",  or just go to ground and do your own thing, then , as the saying goes "just do it" and keep your mouth shut! What the other guy does not know can not hurt you, only you can do that.

Regards,

Americus
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henshawe

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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2005, 12:33:49 pm »

As a follow up to my post re: interaction with LEO's, from Mr. Worden, Liaison Southern Oregon Militia.

What NOT to do - When Federal Agents Come Knocking
A Treatise Carl F. Worden

This treatise is in no way meant as a criticism of Larken Rose or his legal position on the Tax Code. But it is an excellent example of why a citizen of today should not cooperate in any way with law enforcement officers of any kind, and in particular, with federal agents. It doesn't matter if they are asking for your help as a possible witness or just for information -- or they consider you a suspect of some kind. Because so many people try to talk their way out of an initial law enforcement contact situation, they go to prison. Most cops will admit that 70% of the people in prison today wouldn't be there if they'd just kept their mouths shut.

Best example: Martha Stewart. Stewart was not convicted of stock trading fraud; she was convicted of lying to a federal investigator -- which is a federal crime.

How do you avoid such a charge? Don't talk to a federal investigator of any kind, for any reason, ever, on or off the record. It's always on the record.

Worden's Rule 1: Stick your tongue between your teeth and bite down until the blood flows. Do not admit to anything. Especially, do not deny anything. Remain mute, no matter how long they try to drag the interview out. Even if an attorney representing you is present, say nothing unless in the privacy of his/her office.

They will show you evidence that you did something. You will be tempted beyond most human ability to resist to explain that evidence away. Don't do it. Don't agree to any kind of test, be it polygraph, blood test or even taking your fingerprints unless they force it upon you, but through it all, remain silent.

They will tell you somebody said something incriminating about you, or that you were somewhere or that they said you were doing something or did something. Remain silent. Do not admit to or deny anything. If they ask you how you're feeling, say nothing. If they ask you if it's raining and you know it is coming down like Noah's Flood, say nothing.

Worden's Rule 2: Force the law enforcement agents to work only with the evidence they have. Do not allow your attorney or yourself to provide them with any defense you plan to use if you are charged with a crime unless and until you are in court and testifying to a jury -- if that is necessary or wise at all. That way, they have to guess what defense you plan to use, which makes it much more difficult for a prosecutor to prepare the case they have against you.

Never speak to anyone, especially a cellmate in jail, about your case and how innocent or guilty you are. Remain absolutely silent on the matter, and especially during telephone conversations. Law enforcement officers largely depend on suspects to try to talk their way out of a situation so they don't have to spend time in jail. When they do talk, everything they say gives the law enforcement agent places to go, places to look, people to talk to, etc., and that additional input often is what lands the suspect in prison, guilty or not. Law enforcement agents will tell you they are only trying to eliminate you as a suspect. You will be tempted to help them. Don't do it. Stay absolutely silent no matter how guilty they will say it makes you look.

Wordens Rule 3: If you are charged with a crime, the only time it counts for you to offer an explanation is in front of the judge or jury hearing your case -- and in most cases like that, it is still better you don't testify at all because when you do you can be cross-examined by the prosecution.

Worden's Rule 4: Never allow your attorney or yourself to waive your right to a speedy trial. Prosecutors and investigators use the time you are waiting for trial to develop more evidence against you. By demanding your constitutional right to a speedy trial, you shorten the time they have to build a stronger case against you. You reduce the time a witness might be identified or located to testify against you. If they proceed with prosecuting you with the shoddy evidence they have and you are acquitted, they cannot try you again for the same crime, even if you walk out of the courthouse after an acquittal and admit to the press you did it!

Look at what happened to Scott Peterson. Not only did he talk to the Modesto cops, he allowed interviews with reporters that were later used to paint him a liar. Had Peterson remained absolutely silent, no matter how guilty it might have made him look, a lot of the "liar" evidence used to convict him would never have been made available to the prosecution and the jury. Getting back to the feds: The federal government made it a crime to merely lie to a federal investigator.

For that reason and that reason alone, don't talk to a federal investigator, ever, about anything. They enacted and enforce that law, so it is best for every citizen not to speak to a federal investigator about anything, ever. They can't charge you with lying to them if you haven't spoken to them.

Get It?

Regards,

Americus

PS. Link to Larkin Rose siteTaxable income
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Moles
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2005, 11:00:11 pm »

Quote
Get It?
You have the right to remain silent. Do so.
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A note from my younger son when he was 3.

When rights are outlawed, only outlaws will have rights. - Me


Round up everybody who can ride a horse or pull a trigger. Let's break out some Winchesters.  - John Wayne (Chisum)

DrillSgtK

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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2005, 09:50:32 pm »

Gosh i was expecting more in this thread. More along the lines of hints and suggestions for people to be a mole.  Like in The Incredibles, where Bob Parr/Mr. Incrediable is a claims adjuster who helps his clients navigate the bureaucracy to get their claim paid.

Like the meter maid who skips every 10th expired meter, or the DMV person who does not send you to the end of the line for not checking all the correct boxes.

I dated a girl who worked in the county assessment office, her job was to update property values into the computer, and she would shave 5% off the new total for everyone.

I volunteer as an EMT for the local Ambulance service, and for some reason I never have a patient who can tell me there Social Security number or Race. (I have to fill out the form and put in "Patient could not remember" or "No SSN issued to Patient").  I told that to one of the other EMTs who asked why I never get that information, and now he never gets anyone with a SSN either. I do feel bad for lying to my shift captain "Yes, I did ask, but they did not know." but it's for the greater good.

My Little Brother wrote the check out program for the town library, and recently got called by the county library system because it's not compatible with theirs. It seems that the town only keeps the name of the person who has the book out, not who has ever checked the book out.  It is his belief that the library only needs to know the number of times it's been out and who has it now.  Now the county wants the town to buy their expensive system. All while the county library is complaining about the patriot act. (he also told me that his program also assigns a random SSN to each card holder ;)

If we look we can find ways to be moles. not putting in SSN's or making ones up for our clients, shaving numbers, helping people, etc. Especially since I'm not able to do more right now.

I'm looking forward to more ideas.

Drill Sgt K
 
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Ted Nielsen

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Moles
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2005, 11:53:50 pm »

If a mole exposes himself is he still a mole?
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Alton Speers

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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2005, 07:16:37 am »

Quote
Gosh i was expecting more in this thread. More along the lines of hints and suggestions for people to be a mole.  Like in The Incredibles, where Bob Parr/Mr. Incrediable is a claims adjuster who helps his clients navigate the bureaucracy to get their claim paid.

Like the meter maid who skips every 10th expired meter, or the DMV person who does not send you to the end of the line for not checking all the correct boxes.

I dated a girl who worked in the county assessment office, her job was to update property values into the computer, and she would shave 5% off the new total for everyone.

I volunteer as an EMT for the local Ambulance service, and for some reason I never have a patient who can tell me there Social Security number or Race. (I have to fill out the form and put in "Patient could not remember" or "No SSN issued to Patient").  I told that to one of the other EMTs who asked why I never get that information, and now he never gets anyone with a SSN either. I do feel bad for lying to my shift captain "Yes, I did ask, but they did not know." but it's for the greater good.

My Little Brother wrote the check out program for the town library, and recently got called by the county library system because it's not compatible with theirs. It seems that the town only keeps the name of the person who has the book out, not who has ever checked the book out.  It is his belief that the library only needs to know the number of times it's been out and who has it now.  Now the county wants the town to buy their expensive system. All while the county library is complaining about the patriot act. (he also told me that his program also assigns a random SSN to each card holder ;)

If we look we can find ways to be moles. not putting in SSN's or making ones up for our clients, shaving numbers, helping people, etc. Especially since I'm not able to do more right now.

I'm looking forward to more ideas.

Drill Sgt K
Funny how you have found all these great "mole-ish" ideas in action but, not in digital text here. Apparently the work of moles is best left underground and generally unnoticed and unheard. BTW, love those randomly generated socsec numbers.  ;)

Alton
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RagnarDanneskjold

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Moles
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2005, 08:25:23 am »

Quote
Apparently the work of moles is best left underground and generally unnoticed and unheard.
That's why I thought there wasn't much activity in this category. B)  
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The Mayor is the Problem
The flagpole is the answer
We hung the first one
We can hang another one

The Firesign Theatre - from the album Boom Dot Bust

Dear Government
You are a ass shit.

A note from my younger son when he was 3.

When rights are outlawed, only outlaws will have rights. - Me


Round up everybody who can ride a horse or pull a trigger. Let's break out some Winchesters.  - John Wayne (Chisum)

outfoxed

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Moles
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2005, 12:40:30 pm »

I've been reading for a while, and learning.  Felt like I ought to at least register and reply once, since Claire's blog had an appropo theme to this discussion today (6/13/05), and I hope this is an appropriate forum.

My Grandparents and parents went thru Depression times, technology and politically changin' times.  World Wars.  And it all spun out, eventually, into the sort of Don't mix your Reds and Whites in the Wash mess we're looking at today.

I have to believe they wanted to say something, wanted to scream out loud about SS, and the Fed and things probably too shady for them to believe possible in a land that had always allowed them the freedom to farm and move about and bear children without unreasonable alarm.  But how could they know?  They went thru some of the hardest times anyone ever had to, the poorest and most desparate.  Claire mentioned they probably wanted more government, and she's right.  How were they to know?  How could good and decent people have ever predicted this?

I know a lot of you have gone thru the little moment when you looked at what was our country, how you were raised to respect it, but started putting a few things together.  Made the mental leap that your parents would never have dared to.  I guess you could say that's where I am now.  And it's both a scary and enlightening sort of time for me, as it may have been for you.

Moles?  Indeedy.  Because it would seem that moleish behavior might be the last refuge of those who cannot abide leaving this land.  I'm reading as much as possible about it.  Learning what I can.  And as a previous poster observed, it's scary.  I don't think it's possible to be a resident, a human being, and NOT be scared.

But my best regards to those of you who understand this.  I'll be in a watchful place, and quiet, and thinking about how much Grandpa would have hated seeing what has come to pass.  Best wishes to you.
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Junker

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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2005, 01:03:04 pm »

Thank you, and best to you.
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Claire

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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2005, 01:19:08 pm »

Welcome, outfoxed (and may your name prove to be untrue  ;) ).

I'm with DrillSgtK in wishing we had more Mole news. But Alton sure nails one huge reason why we don't have much.

How about this as a thought for bringing more action into this forum? Some of us non Moles might do a bit of wish-listing about efforts future Moles might undertake.

Some things are obvious, of course. Oh yeah, Mr. Mole, we'd like you to wipe out the entire IRS or Real ID database.  :ph34r:  But DrillSgtK lists some small things that are more readily do-able and available to more doers. I really like all those patients "not remembering" their SSNs for example. Sure, they'll probably end up with the SSN in the hospital record. But DSK and his cohorts are registering a tiny gesture of defiance, creating a tiny big of chaos in the system, and protecting one small bit of privacy. Doable.

 
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When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


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lewlew

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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2005, 01:19:50 pm »

outfoxed said:  
Quote
I have to believe they wanted to say something, wanted to scream out loud about SS, and the Fed and things probably too shady for them to believe possible in a land that had always allowed them the freedom to farm and move about and bear children without unreasonable alarm. But how could they know? They went thru some of the hardest times anyone ever had to, the poorest and most desparate. Claire mentioned they probably wanted more government, and she's right. How were they to know? How could good and decent people have ever predicted this?

You bring up some poignant issues, outfoxed. Also, how many of our grandparents and great grandparents were immigrants or first generation Americans?  Out of my grandparents, 3 out of 4 were first generation Americans.  I do not know why their families immigrated to the US, exactly, but the issue of wanting something better for their own was probably part of it.  America was supposed to be a land of opportunity, so trust in government was probably still very strong.  How could the country that invited the mistreated and maligned oppress the citizens?  So, they may have had suspicions, but chose to suppress them because their adopted country held the promise of security.  

As I type this, I think of all the henious legislation being passed "for our security."  So, things haven't changed all that much, really.  It's the same mannequin with a different dress on.

outfoxed said:
Quote
Moles? Indeedy. Because it would seem that moleish behavior might be the last refuge of those who cannot abide leaving this land. I'm reading as much as possible about it. Learning what I can. And as a previous poster observed, it's scary. I don't think it's possible to be a resident, a human being, and NOT be scared.

You said it all right there.

Even though we're all scared, keeping our wits about us and watching our tempers will keep all of us safe.  Don't hesitate to remind me when my feathers get ruffled, which happens on occasion.   ;)
 
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outfoxed

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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2005, 01:57:23 pm »

Wow, I had an epiphany getting a reply from Claire.  Herself?  Just wow.  Thank you so muchly.  Realizing that mebbe you likely have a handle on your own humility :), but it's refreshing to see one of the giants of print be not scared to come in here and yak.  It's one of the actualizations that makes this world/poli view attractive to me.  Thanks too, to Leelaw and you others for the welcome

Interestingly, in the time it took for y'all to reply, I was dashing off to a real estate closing of my own making.  Sold the bubble in the 'burbs, so to speak.  If there's a localized bubble, I'm one of those who took advantage of it and landed in a rental for a while.  Just a first baby step of sorts.  Pick up the check tomorrow, and who knows where it all will lead.  Out of the land of credit and mortgage, that's for sure.  I told my good wife I'd go ahead and pick it up tomorrow and call her from Aruba or New Mexico and there was this whole "Not quite the stream of conciousness I'd like to harbor" thing going on, since she hasn't adjusted to wanton Lib'tarianism on my part quite yet.  But she's a good lass, and coming on strong.

Interesting to me that keeping the low mole-file does not necessarily exclude communication.  I've picked up so much via the net and will continue to, I'm sure.  It's humbling to me that the Grandparents had no access to this sort of medium because they didn't appear to need it.  Didn't need it!  Didn't need to talk it to death because there was no need!  Didn't need to think about reprecussions for the flickering of fingers on keys, or stating the obvious because they were their own people.  What they had in their hands, and what was taken away and turned into something approaching rampant barbarism . . . it makes for small moments in the night, doesn't it now.

Thanks again.
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outfoxed

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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2005, 01:59:24 pm »

Whoops, it's lewlew.  And I tossed a "law" at the end.  Speed readers will never prosper.

Busy day.  Sorry about that.
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