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Author Topic: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?  (Read 22006 times)

Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2005, 08:41:08 am »

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First of all, we have dropped our goal of reaching 20,000 signatures by the end of 2006. While this was an informal part of the Project we recognize that some found this an important element of their commitment. We're requesting that people who thought this goal was essential to their participation contact us to let us know of their intentions.

An "informal part"?!?  I distinctly remember it being in writing on the "Statement of Intent" that I signed an delivered to the FSP.  That makes it a pretty FORMAL part of the deal.

If the FSP is this flexible with plain language agreements, how flexible are they going to be about "Liberty in our Lifetime"?  Sheesh...
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"Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful easily break through them."

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Persecuted BigCity Capitalist

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2005, 08:45:49 am »

I am assuming the membership will now be halved...

Ah well, it was a good dream.
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Claire

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2005, 09:17:50 am »

I am assuming the membership will now be halved...

Ah well, it was a good dream.

It was a great dream -- and in its early stages very well executed.

I don't think membership will halve, though -- or at least not until September 2006. A lot of us who are mad still aren't resigning. We made our commitments and are sticking to them.

Besides that, the FSP has had problems in the past with keeping "phantom" members on its rolls, even after it knew those members didn't exist. When the ballots were sent out to choose the state, hundreds came back "address unknown" (which likely indicated people signing up with false info for malicious or joking purposes). I don't know whether those pseudo-members were ever removed from the FSP stats. Debra might know that. I do know they weren't removed for quite a while after the vote.
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2005, 09:32:25 am »

They still haven't been removed, Claire. In total, about 2500 "members" didn't vote. Prior to the vote, the Board had said that any non-voters would be assumed to no longer be members, and would be removed from the rolls. When they saw how many people would be removed, they balked and left them there. For many months, when asked, they came up with excuses revolving around sending postcards to the nonvoters and need to wait in case they came back. Eventually people quit bothering to ask, and the nonvoting "members" stayed in the tally.
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And Tomlinson took up the tale and spoke of his good in life.
"O this I have read in a book," he said, "and that was told to me,
"And this I have thought that another man thought of a Prince in Muscovy."
The good souls flocked like homing doves and bade him clear the path,
And Peter twirled the jangling Keys in weariness and wrath.
"Ye have read, ye have heard, ye have thought," he said, "and the tale is yet to run:
"By the worth of the body that once ye had, give answer—what ha' ye done?"

FTL_Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2005, 09:43:10 am »

While the FSP "leadership" leaves something to be desired, I don't think their decisions will make or break the concept.  It's the membership who will make this happen.

Until a better idea comes along, the FSP, with all its faults, is still the best thing going.

According to the activists who are already there, if only 2,000 real activists were in the state, that would be enough to move mountains.  My co-hosts and I are going no matter what the FSP decides to bumble around doing.

Putting aside the FSP, how many other libertarian/anarchist groups in other states are engaging in active civil disobedience like the NH Underground is doing?

If it's happening elsewhere, I've not heard the news.
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Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2005, 09:53:33 am »

Actually, FTL_Ian, their decision just did break the concept. Just because they're the most visible group doesn't mean that they're worth moving to NH for if they don't have a realistic plan in place - which they no longer do.
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And Tomlinson took up the tale and spoke of his good in life.
"O this I have read in a book," he said, "and that was told to me,
"And this I have thought that another man thought of a Prince in Muscovy."
The good souls flocked like homing doves and bade him clear the path,
And Peter twirled the jangling Keys in weariness and wrath.
"Ye have read, ye have heard, ye have thought," he said, "and the tale is yet to run:
"By the worth of the body that once ye had, give answer—what ha' ye done?"

Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2005, 09:57:26 am »

I engage in active civil disobedience everyday.  But I don't recommend doing so as a group.  That invites infiltration and "special" targeting by "the man". 

That aside,  FSP is bleeding members faster than the Republican Party because it has made the same mistake and taken its membership for granted as well as disregarding base beliefs.  You can't insult the membership by changing rules, definitions and "goals" in midstream and then expect everyone to just tag along because .."its the best thing going".  That is what is said about America today...and it doesn't fly any better than the manhole cover that FSP has become.
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"Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful easily break through them."

-- Anacharsis - (Scythian philosopher - 600 B.C.)

FTL_Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2005, 10:50:01 am »

Actually, FTL_Ian, their decision just did break the concept. Just because they're the most visible group doesn't mean that they're worth moving to NH for if they don't have a realistic plan in place - which they no longer do.

There never was a plan beyond moving people who love Liberty to NH.  Once moved, it's up to each individual what they want to do.  The idea to move us all to the same state is still intact. 

Also, I'm not moving to NH for the FSP.  I'm moving for me.  I'm moving to be more free, and to be around others who feel the same way.  I'm tired of being surrounded by statists.  I don't care if the FSP dissolves itself, there is still going to be a mass movement of liberty activists to NH.  The NH Underground and my show will accomplish this with or without them.
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2005, 10:52:41 am »

I engage in active civil disobedience everyday.  But I don't recommend doing so as a group.  That invites infiltration and "special"
targeting by "the man".

While that may be true, there are CDs that you cannot do alone, or if you did would result in big trouble for you.  What if you wanted to sell raffle tickets in front of the State Lotto Bureau?  Sure, you could do this alone, but if you did it with 20 other people your odds of all being arrested are much lower.

This is the kind of stuff going on in NH.  That kind of activity excites me.

When you say you do CD every day, what do you mean?  Speeding? 
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Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2005, 11:17:52 am »

Actually I speed as a manner of the way I drive.  I would do it whether it was state approved or not, as long as it wouldn't endanger others.

Many of the other things I do I will not list here as it would immediatley make me a target.  I don't believe in licensing.  I don't believe in taxes.  I don't believe in getting anyones permission to use my property in any way I see fit.  Most have nothing to do with travel.  For more info, buy and read Claire's Book The Freedom Outlaw Handbook.  I had been doing things before I read that and its predecessor, but it has a large range of things to choose from.  Also check other freedom boards if you need ideas (not that you do).  Don't make the mistake of thinking the FSP is the beginning and end of the freedom movement.  Its not.  There are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands quietly pursuing freedom and getting in the way of the state everyday.  The people who post or blog on the internet represent a very small percentage of those who want and strive for freedom.  Many are not on the internet at all and are completely unaware of the efforts of you or I or organizations like the FSP.  I have talked to them and seen their efforts.  And it continues to grow everytime the government tightens its grip around the people.  While some are discouraged by setbacks and disgruntled by in-fighting, many know that this is always going to be an individual fight and continue on uncaring what anyone else thinks.  Count me in this group.  I wish liberty for everyone who wants it, but they have to take it.  No one is going to give it to you and anyone who could can just as easily take it away again.

 :brave:

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"Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful easily break through them."

-- Anacharsis - (Scythian philosopher - 600 B.C.)

Claire

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2005, 11:30:14 am »

There never was a plan beyond moving people who love Liberty to NH.  Once moved, it's up to each individual what they want to do.  The idea to move us all to the same state is still intact. 

I believe Ian is refering to the plan of getting 20,000 members by September 2006 and having them all move to NH within the following five years. Or the alternate plan of disbanding the FSP if the 20k goal wasn't acheived by that date.

The idea for a lot of libertarians to move to one state is still intact, but it's becoming as vague as some other past libertarian "free area" schemes -- like the disastrous (but fortunately small-scale) notion (it would be overly charitable to call it a "plan") that left a dozen or so hopeful freedom seekers unemployed and desperate in Ft. Collins, CO a few years back.

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Also, I'm not moving to NH for the FSP.  I'm moving for me.  I'm moving to be more free, and to be around others who feel the same way.  I'm tired of being surrounded by statists.  I don't care if the FSP dissolves itself, there is still going to be a mass movement of liberty activists to NH.  The NH Underground and my show will accomplish this with or without them.

The idea of moving to be around people who want to live free and enable others to do so is great. But again, if that's the only goal, it can be achieved in New Hampshire, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona, etc. And fortunately it IS being achieved as we speak.

The FSP once had a more sweeping goal than that. And as I perceive it the major objection here is that the FSP board is not merely changing that goal; they're doing so in a way that asks us all to pretend that the original goal never existed.

"Hey, guys, let's just all move to X state!" isn't new among libertarians. The FSP, with its research, well-considered plan, and its promise to disband if it couldn't reach its aims was -- in the past -- something different and better.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2005, 11:44:22 am by Claire »
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


My life is my message. -- Gandhi

FTL_Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2005, 11:34:19 am »

I agree with you, Jeffersonian, and have read TFOH, and reviewed it on my radio show.

While valuable, I don't consider monkeywrenching to be civil disobedience.

CD by its nature should be visible, the main participants identifiable, and intended to induce change.  It's an agitator activity for sure. 

Perhaps saying you monkeywrench every day would be more accurate...  :ph34r:
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Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2005, 11:50:52 am »

I will not bandy words... What you are describing is a kind of warfare.  The state occupies your existance.  I am distancing myself from the state, such that I can, that I my live without its distraction.

As Henry David Thoreau said, "...the government does not concern me much, and I shall bestow the fewest possible thoughts on it. It is not many moments that I live under a government, even in this world. If a man is thought-free, fancy-free, imagination-free, that which is not never for a long time appearing to be to him, unwise rulers or reformers cannot fatally interrupt him."

http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html

The best thing to do with the state is ignore it.  Live your life...don't let the state stop you.  If it comes to war, let the state start it, then you finish it.  And most of all...be cool....    :mellow:
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"Written laws are like spiders' webs, and will, like them, only entangle and hold the poor and weak, while the rich and powerful easily break through them."

-- Anacharsis - (Scythian philosopher - 600 B.C.)

FTL_Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2005, 11:59:49 am »

I believe Ian is refering to the plan of getting 20,000 members by September 2006 and having them all move to NH within the following five years. Or the alternate plan of disbanding the FSP is the 20k goal wasn't acheived by that date.

Ahh, see when I joined the FSP I'd never heard of the 2006 thing.  After I started hearing people gripe about it, I wondered why they cared so much.  I suppose if it means that much to you, bail out when the time comes.  There are plenty of others who are committed to the idea and who will be moving with or without you.  Hopefully you'll change your mind when you notice all of the exciting things happening in the state.

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The idea for a lot of libertarians to move to one state is still intact, but it's becoming as vague as some other past libertarian "free area" plans -- like the disastrous (but fortunately small-scale) plan that left a dozen or so hopeful freedom seekers unemployed and desperate in Ft. Collins, CO a few years back.

Admittedly, I don't know much about that idea, but the FSP is large scale, there are already movers.  They are already making a difference.  A few hundred more could make a huge impact.  Also, most of the other free area plans occurred without the internet to help in spreading the word.  Plus, none of them had a nationally syndicated radio show giving them copious on-air plugs.  (I know our talking about TFOH sold at least a few copies for you.)  Sure, we only have 8 affiliates, but imagine the impact we can have with 80 affilates, or 200.

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The idea of moving to be around people who want to live free and enable others to do so is great. But again, if that's the only goal, it can be achieved in New Hampshire, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona, etc. And fortunately it IS being achieved as we speak.

I haven't heard much about the competing movements.  I'd like to know more.  Competition is good for everyone.

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The FSP once had a more sweeping goal than that. And as I perceive it the major objection here is that the FSP board is not merely changing that goal; they're doing so in a way that asks us all to pretend that the original goal never existed.

That's not the impression I get, and I'm no defender of the FSP "leadership".  I get the impression that they are giving people the chance to opt out, but are otherwise just asking everyone else to recommit to moving without a deadline.  To some people this is a big deal.  For me, it's inconsequential.
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Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2005, 12:26:53 pm »

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I haven't heard much about the competing movements.  I'd like to know more.  Competition is good for everyone.

If your goal is, like JeffersonianToo's, to distance yourself from the state rather than attempt to change the state (which is what FSP members tend towards), then you wouldn't want any publicity. A small group of people came find a hell of a lot of freedom in a gulch, but they aren't going to be talking about it much.
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And Tomlinson took up the tale and spoke of his good in life.
"O this I have read in a book," he said, "and that was told to me,
"And this I have thought that another man thought of a Prince in Muscovy."
The good souls flocked like homing doves and bade him clear the path,
And Peter twirled the jangling Keys in weariness and wrath.
"Ye have read, ye have heard, ye have thought," he said, "and the tale is yet to run:
"By the worth of the body that once ye had, give answer—what ha' ye done?"
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