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Author Topic: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?  (Read 22454 times)

Jeffersoniantoo

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #75 on: November 02, 2005, 05:29:03 pm »

Thanks,  i was looking for an honest appraisal...


I'm outta' here...
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thistle

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2005, 05:45:28 pm »

Quote
I'm outta' here...

Right behind you...
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sorens

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2005, 07:29:09 pm »

I guess this is the part that is causing the problem...

"However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold."

Yup, that's the bit that's caused all the problems.
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Leonidas the Younger

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2005, 08:48:48 pm »

I am fairly sure I kept a copy of the SOI I signed.

I have a member number in the low 2000s methinks, and I am a glasseater.

If I can find that copy I will scan it in and post the jpg.

Given how many gorram boxes of papers of miscellaneous shit^h^h^h^h, er stuff I have (yes, I am a packrat ..) I wouldn't hold your breath though! :lol:

Now, as to my memory of the SOI I signed, I remember that my understanding was that there would be a self abort if 20k wasn't reached, and I remember it would be about five years after the vote; that is to say, I do not think my memory is very far off at all, but I am not certain it is directly on, either.

As to the import of all this, it is the import of keeping one's word. And frankly, saying that "it's okay to bail" is a touch .. on the distasteful side. "It's okay to part ways" would be a more neutral and diplomatic way to put it. AFAIC, I will honour the SOI I signed. I gave my word. But do NOT, please, imply I am "bailing" or "quiting" because I changed my mind after the project morphed.

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Ted Nielsen

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2005, 09:50:13 pm »

I've never seen so much strife over such a trivial matter!  Can't we all just get along?   :angry:

I second that!!!
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Steam970

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2005, 10:58:42 pm »

Pretty obvious we can't get along not even to save our necks.
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Persecuted BigCity Capitalist

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2005, 11:47:36 pm »

What would you expect from a bunch of individualists?   :laugh:
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Leonidas the Younger

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2005, 12:07:17 am »

So honour and keeping one's word are trivial matters?

Is this not a large part of what is so wrong with society today, that keeping one's word is not looked upon as a big deal?

Is not HALF of the non aggression principle about the fact of it being immoral to initiate FRAUD?

We can be individualists and unite as groups to perform activities that no single one of us can - in fact, that is what we do through the free market on a daily basis.

But we can only unite as a political force if we first agree on what principles we stand behind.

I for one stand behind keeping my word. Anyone wish to stand with me?

-- Leonidas
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-- It may soon be time to say: "I plead the second."; are you ready?
-- What have you *DONE* for freedom today?
-- Collectives may exist under individualism, but individuals are not suffered to exist under collectivism.
-- I don't beg anyone for my freedom any more.  It isn't theirs to give me.  It's mine to take and to live. - Lightning.
-- Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead. - Aristotle

Roy J. Tellason

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2005, 12:20:54 am »

Some years back I was a participant in a number of fairly active online conferences,  in fidonet,  and there was a certain amount of back-and-forth nonsense in some of them, especially the busier ones.  At one point somebody started bitchin' and asking why the heck things always seemed to go the way they did,  and in response to that one person (one Kay Shapero if I'm remembering right) pointed to an essay she'd written that was spot on in some respects.  I can't recall the exact title of the essay,  but it included the words "hobby group dynamics".  And group dynamics is what it was all about.

It seems that no matter what the group is,  you eventually end up with a polarization,  with two bunches of people.  On the one side you have the people who are in the group for the love of whatever it was that brought them together in the first place,  just like we're all here for some fairly similar reasons.  And then on the other side of things you have the folks for whom the group itself is the thing,  their "uber alles",  and it's thinking that folks like this might be in the picture that got me to thinking about this essay from way back when.

At one point in time a while back,  a number of years ago,  I was a member of a few computer user groups,  locally.  Also some other stuff,  too,  so I guess I can be pretty sure that I saw some of these dynamics in action.  That and the way that the same people end up doing all the work time after time,  but that's another aspect of things.

We have government at all sorts of levels,  and it's real difficult not to deal with those folks,  if you don't want to.  It's also not all that trivial to get the "people in charge" out if there's a problem in that regard.  When dealing with other organizatoins you're faced with a different set of choices,  but there are always at least choices available,  even if they're not the ones you want.  And I think that going into something with one understanding of what it's all about and then having *somebody* change that to some other understanding of what it's all about without your agreement or consent,  really,  really sucks.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2005, 02:25:51 pm »

Quote
Should the Project never attract 20,000 signers, the move shall be aborted.

Anticipated abort date is was September 2006

Yes, it was anticipated by some people, including some members of the FSP leadership, but it was never part of the Statement of Intent or Participation Guidelines that constitute the commitment of FSP Participants.

The emphasis being on "SOME" people. I always disputed that statement in the FAQ, because it never documented where that 'assumption' was made, or who made it, because it certainly was NOT a consensus opinion. Besides, isn't there some rule about what happens when you make assumptions?
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DigitalWarrior

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2005, 03:31:56 pm »

I differ with the decision to continue as though nothing happened but am still on board with the project.  We cannot maintain our integrity by ignoring this question.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030812172804/http://www.freestateproject.org/faqs.htm#when

The Participation Guidelines do not specify a requisite time period between reaching 5,000 members and reaching 20,000 members. However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold.

I saw this and it was one of the best reasons I joined, the explicit pass/fail criteria. 
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FTL_Ian

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2005, 10:25:34 pm »

The remaining 13,000 will never even know of this "controversey", so it's all wasted bits.
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2005, 03:19:27 am »

All that matters is the dedication of those who are moving regardless of whether it's 1 or 100,000
Like I've said before.....I'm not a member of any of these projects......but in my mind, it's not numbers that count, but the content of the hearts and heads of those  involved.......
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Lloyd

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2005, 11:24:29 am »

You are correct Zoot, the project will always exist in the people who actually move.  I don't think it is possible that the project will fold because several people will be likely to pick it up and keep, at least, some fuel in the bus.
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simplulo

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Re: Free State Project- Goal or Deadline?
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2005, 04:27:54 pm »

I admit I don't read a lot of fine print, but, the way I remember it was that we had 5 years from the date we chose a state to reach 20 grand.

The Participation Guidelines do not specify a requisite time period between reaching 5,000 members and reaching 20,000 members. However, the assumption has always been that if 20,000 is not close at hand within five years of the launch of the Free State Project (officially September 1st, 2001), the Project will fold.

I saw this and it was one of the best reasons I joined, the explicit pass/fail criteria. 

While there might be participants who needed a deadline, there are certainly FSP activists (probably all of them) for whom a deadline would have been a show-stopper.  I am one of the original FSP organizers, the only one besides Jason still active in the leadership, and I can say that had a deadline been declared, I would have instantly ceased all my FSP activism and dropped out.  Why would I invest thousands of hours and thousands of dollars into a venture with a high likelihood of failure?  “Liberty-loving” free-riders that refuse to contribute while others shoulder the load are not worth such a sacrifice, especially the ones who throw rocks from their armchairs.  A deadline allowing people to opt out might make sense, but a deadline leading to dissolution of the project would have been moronic.

There was no deadline.  There was a target, which is a common business tool for guiding one’s activities and measuring one’s performance.  We’re going to miss the target, so fine: don’t pay the leadership our year-end bonuses (10% of zero), but do kick some libertarian whiners out of their armchairs.  Feel free to get involved and replace us.

Unlike some libertarian pundits I have a day job, so I’m not going to throw good time after bad and investigate this further, but one might start by googling FSP + the magic 2006 year:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22free+state+project%22+2006&num=100
It produces, for example, this quote from Jason speaking at a panel discussion at the AEI in February 2004
http://www.aei.org/events/filter.,eventID.754/summary.asp
“…we hope to get twenty thousand commitments by September 2006.”

A hope is not a goal, and a goal is not an official deadline leading to liquidation of a huge amount of valuable progress.  If Jason were to announce a deadline today, it might cause similar disruption, but it would be similarly invalid: Jason is one of the few people authorized to speak for the FSP, but he is not able to make unilateral decisions.  If any organization’s spokesman makes an erroneous statement, the organization will eventually issue a retraction, but it does have to suffer consequences.  Fine, nail us all to crosses, and then go pursue all those other likely means to liberty in your lifetime.
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