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Author Topic: Dear Claire,  (Read 22275 times)

sorens

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2005, 04:42:51 pm »

Jason I love and respect you.  I think your idea has to be one of the best things to happen in recent history for freedom

I differ with the decision to continue as though nothing happened

In what way have we continued as nothing happened? I thought the statement we put on the website was a very clear acknowledgement that we are changing things. We have changed our policy on when the Project will end - for good reason.

I agree that explicit pass/fail criteria are desirable, and I would support creating a new deadline at some point in the future. But it's clear that we can't shut down at the end of next year, even if we don't get "close" to 20,000 signatures. When I wrote my article in 2001, I had no idea what the organization would become, and how it would work. The 20,000 number was a bad idea, in retrospect, and so was choosing a state before our final signatures goal. So was not including a hard deadline in the SoI/PG themselves. Maybe we can fix some of those problems with the initial structure. NH is the best hope for a free society, so we need to adjust whatever we need to adjust in order to focus on that goal.
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H.M. WoggleBug, T.E.

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2005, 06:42:01 pm »

Damnit Jason, you mean to tell me that you're not omnicient??? Unlike all these second-guessing, holier than thou people acting like jilted brides?

You're not acting like a cult leader, either.  Crap, just about all my illusions are shattered!

[/sarcasm]

H.M. Wogglebug, T.E.

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Take care of the means, and the end will take care of itself.

ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2005, 11:41:58 pm »

Look bug.......I don't know what's going through your head but you sure aren't helping things even one tiny bit...and I'm quite sure that sorens here can handle things without you standing behind him jabbing at folks with a pointy stick....

Now let all this shit get out into the wind so it'll blow away, and then maybe something productive will come of it.....ok?
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Leonidas the Younger

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2005, 11:44:20 pm »

H.M. -

Even given this:

Quote
[/sarcasm]

this was uncalled for by a LONG shot:

Quote
Unlike all these second-guessing, holier than thou people acting like jilted brides?

It is said that making a mistake is not as important in itself as how one handles themselves after realizing the mistake.

The FSP screwed up; this has been publically admitted.

The FSP leadership has publically declared that those who had the understanding that I and others did can part company come September ought six - without recriminations from any party - and I get the impression that this is genuine.

For my part, I have two comments. I'm glad that this has been done because it is the start of putting this behind us all - a start of a new forward momentum by addressing the issue that has been so dogging the FSP. My other comment is that while I've only thus far commited to the FSP up to 09/06, I have not ruled out a move regardless.

Please think about my post a while before you reply.

-- Leonidas
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-- It may soon be time to say: "I plead the second."; are you ready?
-- What have you *DONE* for freedom today?
-- Collectives may exist under individualism, but individuals are not suffered to exist under collectivism.
-- I don't beg anyone for my freedom any more.  It isn't theirs to give me.  It's mine to take and to live. - Lightning.
-- Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead. - Aristotle

ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2005, 03:11:55 am »

Quote
I have not ruled out a move regardless.

Now that's the spirit that the FSP is looking for*grin*.....and NO, I'm not in the FSP nor FSW so my opinion is completely unbiased on this.....even if I am an asshole about everything else*L*
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Leonidas the Younger

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2005, 07:29:37 am »

Just because you have "no dog in this fight" doesn't mean you may lecture me about my spirit, geethxokbyebye.

*rolls eyes*

-- Leonidas
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-- It may soon be time to say: "I plead the second."; are you ready?
-- What have you *DONE* for freedom today?
-- Collectives may exist under individualism, but individuals are not suffered to exist under collectivism.
-- I don't beg anyone for my freedom any more.  It isn't theirs to give me.  It's mine to take and to live. - Lightning.
-- Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead. - Aristotle

Persecuted BigCity Capitalist

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2005, 09:30:05 am »

Mr. Sorens,

I'm a friend of the FSP, but not yet a signer.  I considered NH to be the best state as the proximity to Boston meant that people could actually get mid-to-high-level professional and managerial jobs, as opposed to the total lack of any significant large-cap investment in say, Wyoming or Alaska.  Unlike others that were upset about the vote, I concur with the choice of state.

I understand that the phrasing may not have intentionally been misleading, but I had an FSP representative (name withheld for privacy) tell me 2 years ago that the deadline was in fact 2006 to obtain 20,000 people, otherwise the project would be scrapped.  In regards to the people who already moved, I have nothing but respect for their decision, however there was nothing in your statement of intent to require people to move early before the 20,000, and the majority of us were under the impression that the project had a duty to fold in 2006 in the event of the said 20,000 number not being reached. 

I have no problems for the project to continue, in fact I want it to continue and will sign if and only if I take a job in Boston next year or so, but it seems to me that the lack of an official referendum in this matter is kind of imposing on the signers (granted, you gave them the option to opt out).  My feelings are that people will perceive the FSP as being perpetuated due to the inability to meet the original goal, which may not have been what was intended, but people translated it as such and will be treating BoD's decision in that light.  I hope that you will continue your work, and I would suggest you take immediate steps to repair and clarify the situation with current signers, such as remove all opters out and non-respondents to give an actual and verifiable picture of what the member statistics really are, so people can make an informed and rational decision.
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debra

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2005, 09:36:34 am »

PBCC - might want to check out the exchange between Jason & I here: http://thementalmilitia.com/forums/index.php?topic=7443.msg89155#msg89155

 :mellow:
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Persecuted BigCity Capitalist

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2005, 09:49:51 am »

Thanks Debra,

I realize the 20k goal deadline in 2006 is a misunderstanding, however the fact is many of us mistranslated it to be such.
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debra

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2005, 09:55:11 am »

Exactly. Actually, it was in fact a deadline originally, then later changed to either a looser deadline or a goal, depending on your perspective. Since the issue was resolved with the FSP's statement, though, I'm cool with it.
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2005, 12:21:57 pm »

Leonidas,
You might have wanted to both both read and think about my posting before replying.

Rather than being sarcastic or insulting in any manner, my posting was a tribute.......if only you had taken it as such.....

Now please......take any sour grapes you might be holding..........make yerself a bottle of wine, and kick back and relax......
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Claire

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2005, 07:04:56 pm »

Jason and all,

I haven't been posting much to TCF the last few weeks. A combination of an extremely flakey DSL line and a bad connection to my privacy proxy make posting here an exercise in frustration. Yesterday morning I spent an hour responding to your original message in this thread -- only to have the bad proxy connection devour it when I attempted to post it. (I should have saved it as a text file before attempting to post, but ironically I was paranoid that it would disappear in the time it took me to copy and save it. Sigh.)

So I'm afraid I'm just going to leave the debate to others. I'm not much of a debater anyhow, and I suspect our differences lie in viewpoint more than facts, which means that we won't persuade each other. I'll just tell you I greatly respect what you've accomplished and that I still hope the FSP succeeds.

The one thing I do want to say is that I see a gulf between people who believe that political activism for its own sake is a good thing, even with relatively small numbers, and those (like me) who believe that even the most exciting accomplishments of political activists will be quickly overridden by politics as usual unless we have real cultural change. I'd originally hoped the FSP could achieve the latter. I now don't think there's much chance of that. But I still look forward to seeing what a few hundred or a few thousand can accomplish. I know that numbers in that range have had a long-term effect on Vermont. So who knows?

Claire
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Just as the flattery of friends often leads us astray, so the insults of enemies often do us good. -- St. Augustine, Confessions, Book IX, Chapter 8


When faith ceases to be a challenge to the standards of polite society, it is no longer, or has not yet become, faith. -- Donald Spoto, Reluctant Saint:  The Life of Francis of Assisi


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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2005, 02:14:01 am »

Yeah Claire....it all starts with one and spreads......and hopefully won't be contained by imaginary lines drawn on maps...
What does Elias call it?.....a revelation?
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

Leonidas the Younger

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2005, 08:27:53 am »

Quote
Rather than being sarcastic or insulting in any manner, my posting was a tribute.......if only you had taken it as such.....

I've tried and tried and can not conjure how to read it that way.

:dontknow:

-- Leonidas
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-- It may soon be time to say: "I plead the second."; are you ready?
-- What have you *DONE* for freedom today?
-- Collectives may exist under individualism, but individuals are not suffered to exist under collectivism.
-- I don't beg anyone for my freedom any more.  It isn't theirs to give me.  It's mine to take and to live. - Lightning.
-- Educated men are as much superior to uneducated men as the living are to the dead. - Aristotle

russellkanning

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Re: Dear Claire,
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2005, 08:28:40 pm »

Jason and all,The one thing I do want to say is that I see a gulf between people who believe that political activism for its own sake is a good thing, even with relatively small numbers, and those (like me) who believe that even the most exciting accomplishments of political activists will be quickly overridden by politics as usual unless we have real cultural change. I'd originally hoped the FSP could achieve the latter. I now don't think there's much chance of that.

I have no interest in politics here in NH. We are changing the culture. There is no reason for us to give up just because it is hard.
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nothing succeeds like secession http://nhfree.com                    http://KeeneFreePress.com
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