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Author Topic: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)  (Read 41146 times)

BillG

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Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« on: November 05, 2005, 10:26:08 pm »

according to the original laissez-faire, classical liberals the purpose of a "land tax" is to secure the absolute property rights of those being excluded to the fruits of their labor (wages)...appreciating land value is not the result of the landowner's labor but becomes a legal and monetary obligation (immediately for tenants and in the future for buyers) that can only be satisfied by making the property rights of the excluded conditional.
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DTOM

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2005, 01:22:44 pm »

Maybe it is just me, but does this BeGreener character seem like a socialist?
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BillG

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2005, 03:01:14 pm »

Maybe it is just me, but does this BeGreener character seem like a socialist?

generally a socialist believes in the collective ownership in the means of production (land, labor, capital).

I believe in the absolute private ownership of labor and capital (capital is simply stored labor).
I believe in the absolute ownership of land up until Locke's Proviso (enough and as good left for others) beyond which the absolute ownership of labor is made conditional.

since ownership of land is not a single right but rather a bundle of rights (use, possession, exclusion, transferability, and rent) all of these can remain privately owned except the rent which MUST remain owned in common inorder for the ABSOLUTE right of labor to be upheld.

please notice that nowhere did I use the term "collective"...

please also note that freedom of speech is a common right - an INDIVIDUAL right that is freely excercised so long as we do not infringe on the equal access rights of others where the state has an interest in assuring - the essence of negative liberty.
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DTOM

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2005, 03:05:14 pm »

Maybe it is just me, but does this BeGreener character seem like a socialist?

generally a socialist believes in the collective ownership in the means of production (land, labor, capital).

I believe in the absolute private ownership of labor and capital (capital is simply stored labor).
I believe in the absolute ownership of land up until Locke's Proviso (enough and as good left for others) beyond which the absolute ownership of labor is made conditional.

since ownership of land is not a single right but rather a bundle of rights (use, possession, exclusion, transferability, and rent) all of these can remain privately owned except the rent which MUST remain owned in common inorder for the ABSOLUTE right of labor to be upheld.

please notice that nowhere did I use the term "collective"...

please also note that freedom of speech is a common right - an INDIVIDUAL right that is freely excercised so long as we do not infringe on the equal access rights of others where the state has an interest in assuring - the essence of negative liberty.


Welcome back, Tony!
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BillG

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2005, 03:23:09 pm »

Quote
Welcome back, Tony!

who is Tony?
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Junker

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2005, 06:07:59 pm »

Several are talking the same development in land ownership-- Mutualist blog, Conger, Marcus (iirc)-- but it seems that there is still a problem of implementation or enforcement. You wrote, "...where the state has an interest in assuring...." Does that mean you would advocate the state as the enforcing agent of the debundling of rent from landownership?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 06:10:11 pm by Junker »
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BillG

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2005, 06:49:03 pm »

Several are talking the same development in land ownership-- Mutualist blog, Conger, Marcus (iirc)-- but it seems that there is still a problem of implementation or enforcement. You wrote, "...where the state has an interest in assuring...." Does that mean you would advocate the state as the enforcing agent of the debundling of rent from landownership?

I am a minarchist...I believe the state has a role in assuring life, liberty, and LABOR-based property.

therefore, you can't have absolute property rights to land without making labor-based property rights conditional.

the state today is enforcing the landowner's monopoly to rent at the expense of the labor-based property rights of those being excluded.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 07:19:51 pm by BeGreener »
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2005, 10:55:04 pm »

Is it better that the state prohibit any landowners monopoly?

Somehow I don't see that as either libertarian or minarchist as in both ideologies the only legitimate purpose of state is to assure the rights of it's people.....not to control one via the expense of that one for the sake of another.

What you are proposing is socialist in nature and in effect is a forced redistribution of wealth for the benefit of the "excluded" to be paid for by the "included".
Thus using the force of state and of the gun to impose against/steal from land owners for the sake of non landowners and for the sake of the state.
Even trying to hint at anything else is utter nonsense......
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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

eukreign

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2005, 11:06:39 pm »

BeGreener is a Georgist, they are all over the place now-a-days. They post on the FTL, FSP, NHUndergound forums as well. Just ignore them, maybe they'll go away :-)
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BillG

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 06:10:35 am »

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What you are proposing is socialist in nature

generally socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production (land, labor, capital)

Quote
is a forced redistribution of wealth for the benefit of the "excluded" to be paid for by the "included"

since all land is legally claimed the "included" are imposing a tax on the "excluded's" wages

Quote
Thus using the force of state and of the gun to impose against/steal from land owners for the sake of non landowners and for the sake of the state.

to insure the "non landowners" right of self-ownership by protecting their ABSOLUTE property rights to their wages.
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BillG

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2005, 06:40:15 am »

Quote
BeGreener is a Georgist

a georgist is solely concerned with land...I am concerned with all aspects of the commons - both the natural AND social commons. 
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ZooT_aLLures

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2005, 09:38:36 am »

Quote
generally socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production (land, labor, capital)

Specifically if one can tax something, thus forcing another to pay for that something again and again after one purchased that something, the one doing the taxing owns the land, not the one paying that tax on the land who in effect is paying rent on what they've already purchased.

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since all land is legally claimed the "included" are imposing a tax on the "excluded's" wages
Legally "claimed" or legally purchased and paid for?
And praytell please describe exactly how the "included" are imposing a "tax" on the "excluded's" wages if indeed the excluded are not using the property of the included.......and if the "excluded" are using the property of the included, don't the included deserve some benefit for allowing those excluded to use what they've bought and paid for?

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to insure the "non landowners" right of self-ownership by protecting their ABSOLUTE property rights to their wages.
At the expense of the absolute property rights of landowners?
Quite frankly we started walking down this road a long time ago, and now we see old folks getting booted out of their homes for back taxes.....but then again, in your eyes, I guess that's "ok" because they're of this priviledged "included" group?

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since ownership of land is not a single right but rather a bundle of rights (use, possession, exclusion, transferability, and rent) all of these can remain privately owned except the rent which MUST remain owned in common inorder for the ABSOLUTE right of labor to be upheld.
Yes, yet one obtains these rights through purchase, and one purchases using capital and thus you're suggesting that we tax capital via taxing land and or improvements made upon that land which of course are also built using capital, and as you've already said, capital is stored labor, and thus you're telling us that you want to tax labor, specifically "stored labor" via taxing the vehicle or form in which that capital and thus labor is stored....so much for protecting absolute rights to one wages(which are of course capital if used as capital to purchase land in which to store capital and thus store labor)

You might want to rethink that position, and try again

Like I said before, this is just socialism wrapped in a stylish gift wrap......but it still smells bad.

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Even some cowboy and indian outlaws in the 1800's eventually stopped sleeping under buffalo skins, and came to town to entertain paying customers. For some I imagine the bruising of their ego never healed.

We all have some scar tissue that never lets us completely forget the intent of the adventure.

eukreign

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2005, 10:20:25 am »

Quote
BeGreener is a Georgist

a georgist is solely concerned with land...I am concerned with all aspects of the commons - both the natural AND social commons. 

A Fascist Georgist.
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BillG

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2005, 11:00:17 am »

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the one doing the taxing owns the land, not the one paying that tax on the land who in effect is paying rent on what they've already purchased.

ownership of land is not one right but rather a bundle of rights any one of which can be alienated.

1. use
2. possession
3. exclusion
4. transferability
5. economic rent (beyond Locke's Proviso)

if I am hired by the landowner to go collect the rent for the use of capital (buildings) from the tenant does that make me the owner?

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please describe exactly how the "included" are imposing a "tax" on the "excluded's" wages if indeed the excluded are not using the property of the included

do you agree that all land in the US is legally claimed although not all occupied?
do you agree that inorder to exist you must occupy some space somewhere and that via the laws of gravity your feet must be touching the surface of the earth?

then logically one must conclude that one must pay someone inorder to exist (or be gifted)...immediately if you are a tenant and sometime in the furture if you are a buyer.

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At the expense of the absolute property rights of landowners?

I am making the case that we only have a choice to make between absolute rights to land ownership and the absolute rights to the fruits of our labor...it is impossible to have both.

Hong Kong - where no one owns there own land yet they consistently score at the top of Forbes' economic FREEDOM index proves my point (although the state owning all land is a collectivist solution that I reject).

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now we see old folks getting booted out of their homes for back taxes.....but then again, in your eyes, I guess that's "ok" because they're of this priviledged "included" group?

how do you feel about people getting thrown out on the street by the state for not paying the economic rent (access to land) portion of their lease payment?

if you agree that this is wrong I will agree that throwing "old folks" out is wrong...

Quote
one obtains these rights through purchase, and one purchases using capital and thus you're suggesting that we tax capital via taxing land and or improvements made upon that land which of course are also built using capital, and as you've already said, capital is stored labor, and thus you're telling us that you want to tax labor, specifically "stored labor" via taxing the vehicle or form in which that capital and thus labor is stored....so much for protecting absolute rights to one wages

do you agree?
1. the landowner does not create the land itself via labor
2. the landowner does not create the UNIMPROVED land value via their labor but rather it is created via the landowner's neighbors' labor

in a 100% pure rent sharing scheme there would be NO purchase price to land only sharing rent with your neighbors (and they with you)

exactly where are the absolute rights to one's wages violated in the above scenario?
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Jack21221

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Re: Land as a common good (was: I want to buy land)
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2005, 11:12:26 am »

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ownership of land is not one right but rather a bundle of rights any one of which can be alienated.

Most of us will disagree on this premise, upon which all your other premises are based.

Ownership implies use, possession, exclusion AND transferability. If you are not allowed to do all these things with something, you do not own that thing, whether it be land, your house, your car, or your computer. 

These things are inseperable. If I am not allowed to exclude anybody I wish from my car, I do not own my car. If I am not allowed to sell my computer, I do not own my computer. If I am not allowed to build a house on my land, I do not own the land.

That is where we stand right now. People in America don't own their land, because they cannot use it as they wish.
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