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[Duncan]

"LOL that says everything I need to know. No state income tax. At $30 hr 48 hrs a week that around $72,000 You aren't in the 35% bracket there but for the sake of argument we'll say you are. At that you would pay the Fed. about $25,200."

$30 is just a number I posted they aren't paying this kind of money in Casper unless you are in the Union. I made $13 an hour back in 1986 working the oil fields. Everyone is at least in the 35% bracket you left out SS# tax and medicaire tax. I don't pay the fed shit but I'll bet you do because you don't have a clue on how to screw the man.

"You have $46,800 left."

No I don't you left out a whole bunch of other taxes. Gas tax, property tax, inheritance tax, sales tax, car registration tax, auto insurance tax, traffic ticket tax, alcohol tax, cigarette tax, tourist tax,. These are all Wyoming taxes the only tax they don't have is the employment tax and other states like Texas and New Hampshire don't have this kind of tax as well. CO has a 4% income but then they have more work in CO and the pay is whole lot beter in places like Denver, CS. FC and Greeley. Low pay in Wyoming and you gain nothing by not being taxed for your labor here because of it

If you can stop being a prick long enough I can tell you how to whoop the income tax thing in CO by living in WY. Claire gave people a few pointers in her last book about forming corporations so I will refer you to her text on ways to screw the system.

"I did some looking. I'm playing the Devils advocate and inflating rent to California standards and calling it $1200 a month. And that's optimistic for the landlord.That brings us to $14,4000.
That leaves you with $32,400."

What part of CA? It's not like I've never been to CA. I've lived and worked there. Rent is high in places like SB but low in places like Lompoc. So what most people don't make $30 an hour in Cheyenne or in Casper. You will need to revise your numbers a bit. Just use the US Census reports to see what the median income of working people in WY is and they have even broken it down into counties for you. I just did some internet research on the vocation of surgical tech. In Conn they make $30 an hour here they make $12 to $15 an hour. Pay in FC is sub par the average pay is around $8 - $10 a hour and even less than this in Cheyenne.

 Rent? It depends on what you rent. $300 a month for a roomate thing or any where form $600 to $1,000 a month for an apartment or $1,500 a month for a house. It is not much lower than this in Cheyenne. You can do your own research by going to the website of the local rag in Cheyenne the Wyoming-Tribune Eagle. Or gee we have people who live in NE CO on this here website who can tell you what goes on here. Housing costs are 250K on the average for a home in FC and about 150K to 200K for a home in Cheyenne and the costs in Cheyenne are rising faster than the costs in FC.

"Again playing the Devil's advocate I'll toss in what I pay for insurance which is about what most people with a family of 4 pay for the whole group.$750 every three months or $3000 a year, for take home $29,400.Another $3000 for gas =$26,400 Let's take out $6,400 just for kicks.
I don't know about you but I have had years where $20k after expenses would have been a Godsend."

What kind of insurance? Health, auto, home etc... . You still pay for this in WY. What does this have to do moving to WY you are going to pay this crap no matter were you live in the USSA.

"You never in your life made $20,000 after expenses on minimum wage, never."

"I just talked to a friend up in Thermopolis last night.He laughed when I told him what you said.
He's a mechanic on flat rate at 16.50 an hour".

Like I said $30 was just a number I threw out there I have no idea what they are paying in Casper for construction work. I do know that the pay is better in Casper than it is in Cheyenne. You're making my point which is the pay is worse in Thermopolis than it is in Denver to do the same kind of work so by avoiding the state income tax he gained nothing so therw would be no point in moving here if your goal is live better by avoind an income tax.

"Let me define flat rate for those not familiar......Boom/Bust. Commision...no work...no money.
His wife doesn't work and he has two kids. He had a chance to work in Alaska for Chevron for about three times the money and opted not to because he thinks Wyoming is paradise."

It is compared to Pt. Barrow Alaska, which ain't saying much about Thermopolis. And there ain't much to say about this town I've been there and I'm unimpressed. You ever been to AK? Some places are great others suck just like here in WY.

"BTW he was born and raised in Denver and I lived in Durango and Hesperus.  It ain't Californians fuckin up the scene there.  It's local tweaker trailer trash.
Same in Ft. Collins.
Same as Craig.
Same as the Springs.'

So? I was born in CA raised in FC, CO lived in IA, KN, NM, NH. TX, WY, AK, but spent most of my life in NE CO were my family took up a homestead back in 1909.

"That whole tax strike protest BS is code for can't or won't hold a job.
You, Mopgayboy and Voided37 need to go bowling or something."

The tax strike thing works for me and you know me how punk? Just another gutless wonder who hides behind a moniker. You can see me at the TRT picnic and say what you have to say to my face, but I doubt if you have the balls.

[Not a TMM member]

I'm working with numbers you throw out.
At $15 and hour you will never pay 35% fed.
So even if I cut my numbers in half and adjust the tax according it still leaves more left over than you take home on minimum such as you say is preferable.

Again it's more than I have been left with on many jobs.
Inheritance tax? So who died? I won't be paying that, sorry.
Gas tax. I covered that in my numbers. That you choose to ignore it is of no consequence.
Alcohol, cig and tourist tax are taxes on frivolity. If you don't get fucked up everyday or pollute your lungs like a moron you'll avoid them.  You are grasping at straws.
If you were making $13 and hour in 86 and I knew people making $21 in 93 and wages have done there like here and everywhere else in the country in the energy business they are probably over $21 an hour now. I don't know but still you make a good living.

Keep kickin man...the horse ain't dead enough yet.

If you can make it not working....your own words....then over $20 an hour is good money.
BTW...how do you survive?
You said you don't work for anyone I'll venture a guess that means you are either self employed or not at all.
Seems my statement struck a nerve. Truth hurt?

How do you figure my statements about my friend in Thermopolis makes your point.
Unless you want to contradict yourself yet again you keep saying how it sucks there.
He says it's great....this proves your point how?
How from that did you infer I was saying the pay was better in Denver?
Yeah I've been to Alaska, why?

The tax strike thing works for me and you know me how punk? Just another gutless wonder who hides behind a moniker. You can see me at the TRT picnic and say what you have to say to my face, but I doubt if you have the balls.

So truthfully are you on welfare or something? You said you don't work for anyone.
I know you from the nothing but negative NIMBY don't come here because I don't want you here bullshit you keep spouting.
What do you suppose would happen if we were face to face?
What, you're gonna beat me up?
If I get you too excited and you'll vapor lock around that pacemaker and die.
Then I got a murder charge....oh wait the LEO's around there would probably hire me for causing you to pile up. 

[Wyomiles]

No good paying jobs in wyoming ?  Have you seen these?   
   
 
http://www.jobsearch.org/seeker/jobsearch/quick?action=seeker_search_process&job_search_sort=salary

Truck driver starting at 50, Mechanic at a fertilizer plant starts at 57, thats before overtime.   

[Not a TMM member]

Don't confuse him with the facts!

He would need to create a new tax bracket or invent some new hindrance, perhaps a fence....yeah that's it.
Downer Duncan could get the state to build a fence around Wyoming...with state protections for labor but not employers of course.

Besides, even at $50 an hour you can't survive in Wyoming so why bother?

[Claire]

Yea the state is. I either produce a SS# and an ID card or I won't get the job and if I don't get the job thenI starve to death or I go and steal what I need to survive.

Huh? I know a number of people who won't use either an SSN or a government ID card. You might say I know some of those people intimately. And not one of them is starving to death or stealing. All just working for a living. Not making millions. But surviving and doing it honestly -- in Wyoming and elsewhere.

I agree that employers and government combine to rob us of much liberty. But c'mon ...

Claire

[Moderator]

prick ...  punk? Just another gutless wonder

Name calling is not allowed here and you've already been warned once. Duncan, say your say but say it without name-calling or you will be banned.

[Not a TMM member]

Not to mention the large and growing number of those from other countries working there and in every other state without a SSN.
I guess there no one of that description in Wyoming either.

[Duncan]

"I'm working with numbers you throw out.
At $15 and hour you will never pay 35% fed.'

But you aren't working with a brain. 10% for SS tax 10% to 20% for employment  tax depending on what kind of write offs you are allowed to use by the fed. Were up to 30% already and the this tax is the same no matter were you live in the USSA.

"So even if I cut my numbers in half and adjust the tax according it still leaves more left over than you take home on minimum such as you say is preferable.'

No it doesn't. Minimum wage people don't pay federal income tax because their income is to low. You ignored my point #@$%. If you work as an electrician in WY you will pay for things like a state issued lisence, take a state issued test, you have to renew your lisence every year and take code classes every other year along with things like tools, work clothes, wear and tear on your car, gas costs, and auto insurance costs. And  after paying for all of this crap you will  have reached the point of diminsihing returns. You would be better off to stay at home and work for less money because rent and hosuing cost are higher in Casper than they are in Michigan. This is why I gave up being an electrician. I paid for other things as well things like night classes, text books etc.. .

"Again it's more than I have been left with on many jobs."

Not my fault yer a *&^% who can't add or subtract or figure out that less income means less or no income taxes. You are looking at it ass backwards more money does not always equate into more net wealth. If you were making $50 an hour then you might be correct. Construction work is seasonal you will not work year round add. As a construction worker you will move around alot and be unable settle down to a house. You will pay for hotels and eating out alot only further adding to the over all costs. You seem to have a pattern of picking dead end jobs that don't pay very well.

"Inheritance tax? So who died? I won't be paying that, sorry."

Who gives a #$%^ about you and your trailer *&^% family? My posts are directed at anyone planning on moving to WY. I'm not interested in your white %$^#& &^%$#@ #$%. This tax is a small part of all the taxes you forgot or were ignorant of that we all have to pay no matter were we live. Your point is? The point is you don't have a clue. You read some guys book titled Molon Labe and never bothered to check out the practicality of moving to WY. BTP writes alot of books and they are all good books, but do his ideas work for you? I've met BTP at a few gun shows and shook his hand. I own several of his books. He has some good ideas but his ideas don't always work for everyone all of the time.

"Gas tax. I covered that in my numbers."

No you didn't. The fed gas tax is the same in WY as it is in every other state and WY has its own gas tax not much lower than CO's gas tax.

"That you choose to ignore it is of no consequence."

Nope you ignored this tax not me.

"Alcohol, cig and tourist tax are taxes on frivolity. If you don't get fucked up everyday or pollute your lungs like a moron you'll avoid them.  You are grasping at straws.'

So what if it is a frivolity tax as you call it? The proper term is 'sin tax' it is still a tax and a tax that other states have just like here in WY. No one gives a fuck what you do these comments and posts are directed at all the members of the forum not just you. The world doesn't revolve around you sonny others might drink and smoke and this is their right to do so. You sound like a )(*&^%$ )(!@# who wants to outlaw smoking and drinking. They outlawed smoking in Cheyenne just last month and welkome to Wyoming komrades.

"If you were making $13 and hour in 86 and I knew people making $21 in 93 and wages have done there like here and everywhere else in the country in the energy business they are probably over $21 an hour now. I don't know but still you make a good living.'

No if about it. You ever heard of inflation? Not to bright are ya? Based on cost of living increases over a period of twenty years we should be at $30 - $40 an hour and no it ain't relative if you have a big fat house payment to make every month.

"Keep kickin man...the horse ain't dead enough yet."

I'll kick you as long as you like.

"If you can make it not working....your own words....then over $20 an hour is good money."

Not after taxes it ain't. Studies show that taxes now exceed over 60% of a persons gross income and this is why people are running to the bank to get a loan for a home.

"BTW...how do you survive?'

I own my own home outright. I don't think you know very much about the people who put up this forum. Most of them advocate that people get off the grid and become self sufficient which is
something a person can do no matter were they live. If you are going to come here you need to know something about others who come here and read some of Claire's books.

"You said you don't work for anyone I'll venture a guess that means you are either self employed or not at all."

I work when I feel like it and I can get away with it for several reasons. I own my own home, thus no house payment making me free of evil bankster scum who are just agents of the state. I own my cars and other modes of transportation. If everyhting I own is pad for then I don't need to work for the man and put up with his crap to e treated like a commodity instead of an individual. If you want to learn how to be free then shut yer pie hole and I'll tell ya how to do it.

"Seems my statement struck a nerve. Truth hurt?'

Nah I'm the one taunting you and my tactics did get your attention didn't they?

"How do you figure my statements about my friend in Thermopolis makes your point."

He makes less than $30 an hour. He makes less than a guy doing the same job he does that might live in Detroit or Denver. When you live in a big city you make more $ and if you live in a small city you make less $. If a whole bunch of people suddenly move to WY and create large pockets of people then housing cost will go up and it will be awhile before wages catch up, thus you gain nothing financially by moving to WY. This is what is happening in Laramie county now.
\
"Unless you want to contradict yourself yet again you keep saying how it sucks there."

Thermopolis and Denver both suck.

"He says it's great....this proves your point how?"

Great compared to what? Pt. Barrow Alaska? Poor comparison and he doesn't seem to get out much. Paradise would be more like Walden or Buffalo WY.

"How from that did you infer I was saying the pay was better in Denver?'

You didn't infer it I did and it is a fact of life.

"Yeah I've been to Alaska, why?"

Doesn't look like it when you make comparison with Pt. Barrow and Thermopolis. Places like Homer, Kodiak are paradises compared to Thermopolis.


Quote
The tax strike thing works for me and you know me how !@#$? Just another (*&^%$# wonder who hides behind a moniker. You can see me at the TRT picnic and say what you have to say to my face, but I doubt if you have the balls.



"So truthfully are you on welfare or something? You said you don't work for anyone.
I know you from the nothing but negative NIMBY don't come here because I don't want you here bullshit you keep spouting."

BS is the crap you post. Just keep paying taxes and supporting the state, better you than me.

"What do you suppose would happen if we were face to face?'

You would get to tell me off and back your BS with a name and a face. You won't do it becuase your a $%^#.

"What, you're gonna beat me up?'

I'm giving you the chance to beat me up.

"If I get you too excited and you'll vapor lock around that pacemaker and die".

Then you have nothing to fear from me.

"Then I got a murder charge....oh wait the LEO's around there would probably hire me for causing you to pile up."

You're to much of a (*&^ to face me like man much less murder me.  I had ya pegged as a pig lover from the get go. One of your following BTP. So much for the FSW project nothing but nazi's and statist pigs moving in around here.

[Duncan]

"Name calling is not allowed here and you've already been warned once. Duncan, say your say but say it without name-calling or you will be banned."

And this rule doesn't apply to others I take it?

Truth sucks about WY I guess.

[Duncan]

"Not to mention the large and growing number of those from other countries working there and in every other state without a SSN."

Yea and this goes in WY as well. Better to outlaw SS#'s rather than aliens.

"I guess there no one of that description in Wyoming either."

The state of WY sent the state of ID a bill for educating their alien citizens. Most working class people can't afford to live in Jackson so the billioniares higher Mexican Nationals who find cheaper rent in ID but they use WY public schools and don't pay WY taxes. This sound alright to you? Just outlaw the public schools and we eliminate the problem.

[Not a TMM member]

Just outlaw the public schools and we eliminate the problem.

 Finally something everyone will agree on.
Actually Duncan I've not read Molon Labe yet.
I have no interest in beating you up.
None.
Your tax statements are wildly erroneous.
I would like to know how 500,000 plus people live and work in Wyoming if everything is so bad.
If it was as bad as you say the whole state would be a National Park.
When I made my example of income and expenses I allowed for a good many things you seem to have decided to discount or ignore.
I never neglected taxes on certain expenses. In fact I consider as I'm sure many others do, the what, $6000 I deleted just for kicks as I think I put it gathered those things and more up nicely.

My addition and multiplication is there for all to see.
It is correct and clean.
What part of what I said about frivolities indicated I would advocate banning anything?
I smoked and drank my share your share and several other peoples share. Who cares?
Those taxes are simply negligible until you consume so much that you are gonna die from it anyway.

No matter how you try to cut it up even $15 an hour after tax is still better than minimum.
No body here is buying your reasoning on that account I'm sure.
I'm not saying a minimalist income isn't a good way to go if you are avoiding supporting Uncle Sam's eating machine. But that's really not what you are saying now is it.


BTW, please stop putting words in peoples mouths man.
YOU are comparing Pt. Barrow to Thermopolis I never even mention the place.
I said he turned down a job in Alaska....I said no place specific, just Alaska.  Last time I was there, there was more to Alaska then just Pt. Barrow.

But you aren't working with a brain. 10% for SS tax 10% to 20% for employment  tax depending on what kind of write offs you are allowed to use by the fed. Were up to 30% already and the this tax is the same no matter were you live in the USSA.

Your words again.
You won't be paying even 30% Fed. at $30 an hour 48hr. week. More like 28% at worst.
At best as a single person with no (0) dependants you are at 25% at 72k a year.
A single with no (0) deductions doesn't even hit 28% till he gets to 74K.
Married, joint filing does even better than that with deductions.

You don't hit anything over 33% until you get way over a quarter mil.

When you look at the employment numbers all over the net and compare them to your claims they just don't pan out.
In order for your scenario to play out the way you depict it everyone would have to come near naked with no money, no skills, no background and no clue standing around waiting to get screwed.

You say I don't know much about the people who populate this board?

[Duncan]

I quoted the traffic stuff right out of a college text. It is just another tax.

The point is WY does have taxes and the state does have a 2 billion dollar surplus. Why are they keeping all of our money if they don't need it? I suspect much of this money came from the states  mineral taxes, but people who purchase gas and coal pay this tax to the corporations who sell it.

I'm just playing the devils advocate. CA is worse than WY but I can see Laramie county going down that same road of communism. Since I moved here we now have building permits in which Cheyenne city inspectors come out and inspect homes being built and or remodled in the county. Cheyenne now has a smoking ban on bars and resturuants. I agree it is a false slippery slope arguement but it is happening. One of the problems with Cheyenne is that they want to imitate Ft. Collins and FC want's to be like Boulder and Boulder is already like SF.

The whole state damn near is a park as much of it owned by the fed and run by BLM. You could probably get your hands on one of those maps which would show you were all the fed land in WY is and where all the state owned is land is located as well.

If you make $15 an hour and you have no dependents and your not making a house payment to write of the interst on the principle then you will lose enough money in taxes that you have reached a point of diminishing returns. People on mimunum wage run to the state and pick up free food, free heat and often if they have kids free health care. Free for them and not for others who pay taxes. These low wage earners avoid income taxes and get freebies which increase their wealth.

I think a guy needs to be at $30 -$40 an hour to make his worth his or her while.

$15 X 40 =$ 600 - 30% = $400 x 4 weeks = $1,600 a month

Most people see 30% taken out of their checks right off the top. Rent can vary depending on what a person wants. Even people who rent will pay an indirect property tax as the landlord simply takes what he collected from you to pay his property taxes. I don't care if you move here the point is it ain't any better economically than were you are living now.

[Not a TMM member]

Where do you get 30% on 30k a year?
It simply doesn't exist.
At 36k you are at best 25% or 9000 in taxes

15x40=600 x 4= 2400- 25% = $1800 x 12= 21k after tax.
3k year for insurance = exorbitant. My wifes insurance is $125 Mo. and for a higher deductable we could do $97 for her.
3k vehicular = grossly high. Not everyone drives a gas hog.
9k rent still high for single guy/gal. Way high.
3k food, again you can do better.
18 k of unrealistically high expenses.
2k left over.
Granted it's slim but it isn't doomsday.
We or rather you started saying you couldn't live on $30hr.
Now since you couldn't fly that lead balloon we are at $15.
Most of the people here are capable of better.
Every site posted here says better than $15.
One says $57!

 

[Ian]

FWIW, I'm making about $15/hour counting my overtime. They only (ug, "only") take about 18% of my gross out. I'd be rolling in money if I made $30/hr.

[Duncan]

"Where do you get 30% on 30k a year?"

This is about what was stolen from my weekly pay checks when I did work for da man. I've asked others who work hourly and they have given me the figure of 30%. Many folks never figure the SS# tax and the medicare tax.

When I was working hourly I would use 9 allowances and get the number down to 10% or just the SS# tax would be stolen form my weekly wealth. I haven't filed since 1992 nor worked for anyone since then. The last time I checked a IRS tax book it was still at 10% up to a certain amount and then it went up even more or the more money a person made the mroe tax thye paid. If a person is self employed you can forego alot of the theft with alot of business write offs on stuff like your car etc ... but you will spend alot of time working for the IRS to screw yourself out of your own money.

A friend of mine just graduate CSU with a degree in Civil Engineering. He recently took a job in Denver for 40k a year and complianed that he would be shelling out around 30% just for the income tax. He lives in a high rent district in North Douglas County right off of the interstate and he is single, has no children and is not buying a home, thus he has no write offs.

I think $15 an hour is shit pay, but then I'm used to seeing high housing cost in the area I use to live in were people do 40 year bank loans. $15 after taxes for a single guy ain't squat when you have to make a house payment of $1,000 a month. $15 an hour is around 30K a year - 12K for a house payment only leaves you with little more than half your income.